Chaim87

@Yaakov Yosef A
Now just to cut you a bit of slack, Ill say this, Of course many Zionists believed that if they can only save 500 jews, save zionists. But,
1) Their goal always was to save as many jews as possible, frum or not frum zionsits or not zionists. (Yes if its limited then some said save zionsits)
2) Only some held that way not all.
3) That was more in 1938 and not 1944. By then everyone held save all jews.
Yes I am not here to defend and say all zionists are good people. There was a minoirty and only a minority killed those that got in their way. But these wacky ideas that they wanted many jews dead so they can promote themselves. or that the killers were a majorty is blaloney.

Bottom line, yes you don’t want to debate this. the truth hurts. if you learn that the zionists did MORE to save jews than many frum jews it would debunk your whole premise of this forum. (Of course i don’t put R michel Ber or Mrs strenbauch on the same pedistal as Katsner. But compared to many other “rosh kauhls” he was a saint)

@Yaakov Yosef A
Alot of what you say is a myth. You have no proof other than what we charedim were feed as little kids. Zionist are evil bla bla. Yes there are bad players. Yes Zionism was about Israel and not saving jews. But they were jews to and once they saw the gravity they also wanted to save jews like evryone else. This is the overwhelming proof. Please don’t just rinse and repeat what Ben hecht and other baised people say. Search for the truth.

Why do i bring this up as a thread here? Here is the key point. the same way many peddle lies and wacky conspiracy theories about zionsim that are all not true. Its that same altitude as it pertains to iran. Yeah zionists are liars and just out for themselves. Us frum oh we are the noble honest ones. When i see what you all say about the holocuast, i see you are all just drinkjing propaganda kool-aid. its not emes

@Yaakov Yosef A
I won’t deny that some Mapai guys were evil We know Ben Gurion shot at Begin boat while Began refused to shoot back bec we don’t shoot at other jews. But two things
1) Even the evil Mapai guys shot or killed those that threatened them. I don’t believe that they openly disrupted rescue missions that were just to save jews.
2) Not everyone was on the same page. the zionists in Europe were out to save jews for sure.

Verba is the most accurate report and spot ona ccount. he escaped form Auwchwitz, and saw the ins and outs

Furthermore, that satmar book you point to is full of lies and has been proven to be made up The fact that you believe we could have saved jews and that the Nazis were desperate at the end just shows you follish this theory is. You seem to think that their hate for jews was secondary. This is the most misconstrued thought out there. Everyone know there #1 goal was to kill as many jews as possible. Nothing else came clsoe to second. Their whole fixation on Hungary despite being at the end was that. Hilter YMS made heads roll when her heard about that one train. He fired his chief. You really think, that he would have saved 100’s of thousands? Ecihman YMS showed no remorse even when captured. Now its true that here and either a big individual nazis could have been bought off to save his life. Thats what Kurt Becher did and that was thanks to kastner. Thats no small feat. But to thhink that large scale jews could have been saved? No way

These kind of repeat falsehood is because you never looked outside Satmar for the truth. Research all this. Don’t believe everything Satmar says

If your only informtion about the holocausts and zionists are the same 3 sources that satmar cooks up , a crazy guy like Ben Hecht or R michoel ber zl whose who himself was fooled by the nazis yms and sadly never recovered from that, then I rest my case. Of course you are baised and everything is the evil zionist fault. We don’t even admit that some chashuva frum jews were even worse than Kastner. Its sad how judiasm became a cult. Then we should give cwredince to your belif that Oct 7 was cooked up by evil zionists

@pure yiddishkeit,

I will have to get into this another time. But your history that you qoute is all stamar propoganda. Its mostly lies. R Michole Ber and many others were doped by the nazis who never planned on saving them,. Kastner openly said he wants to save all jews and that was his plan till May of 44 when he saw he couldn’t. This is well known and proven. Listen to the Verba testimony . Its archived. Listen to him say how R weissmendel who was a holy jew but was fooled by the nazis. They never planned on really listening to Brand (bund) or anyone. It was part of Eichmann ymiach shimo game. Kastner couldn’t pay up not because he didn’t try. yes its true that Sternbauch did seal the final freedom but without Kastner they would have never gotten to that point.

Ill just challange you to be honest and tell me if you ever even heard the other side. I heard both sides. Like i said, likley the ones biggest to blame was the frum rosh Hakuhl of Budapest together with Shammu Stern the neolog who told jews to cooperate with the nazis outright. yes the ffrum perosn was officially part of R Michoel ber’s group, a cousin of R shtief zl on paper very choshev but sadly he has yiddisha blood on his hands to, (I can’t judge but all reports including from people who knew him that I spoke to, say that he was out for himself)

@philosopher
I didn’t read every comment. But i do think you are a bit proposing conspiracy theories and mixing it up with just plain very poor personality traits.

Lets start with Oct 7, sorry for being sharp but anyone who believes that Bibi intentionally knew about the attack and just ignored it for self gain (even if eh didn’t anticipate the extent) is just a full quack conspiracy theorist. I don’t think I need to provide rationale as to why a leader even a poor one and a “secular zionist” would never intentionally let other jews die. Its just insane.

Now here is the thing. Is Bibi guilty of ignoring warning signs? yes Is he guilty of ill prepping the army to respond both immediately and ground invasion? yes. And he was in charge for 25+ years (with a few small breaks). The buck stops at him. I will say that hamas played a good deception game. But still, he should have been at his game. So he is guilty of being careless. That’s probably because he is a bal gava and haughty. He thinks he is always the smartest and he is indeed wise but nobody is that wise. Thats not the same thing as saying he intentionally let it happen. Bibi is not inherently evil.

Now re Iran. There is much more data. There were inspectors there at the site. Israel even raided it once. To say nothing was going on like in Iraq, is again just wacky naive and ignoring the facts. It is true though that there is no proof that they were about to make the final pitch or just stop at kind of that 80% mark. In all likelihood they wanted to reach a point where its not fully there but its at a place where completing it isn’t that difficult all while saying its for their own energy needs. This is pretty clear. So where they on the “verge of completion”? And what does it mean that its completed. Does that mean luanch ready or just like the technology is there but its still another whole path to launch it. So maybe thats enough to say, now wasn’t the time yet maybe not. Thats debatable. But again lets not make it as if there was nothing there. That’s just denying the facts.

Perosnally I was more disturbed at Iran sponsoring Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis vs the nukes. That was clear. They deserved to go for that. And so Bibi was right anyhow.

Re your upbringing, I think depsite your open mind, satmar ideology still crept in (Not saying its extrreme NK but it has sprinkles of that). This is the same reba/ chasidus, who refsued to cooperate with the zionists during the war when jews could have been saved. The same people who say Kastener was evil and Ben hecht book is all true. The real truth is, while Kastner was no saint, he risked more to save jews than the frum rosh hakohul from Budapest who was complict in sending jews to their slaughter and lying to them. Satmar makes up facts. (They even cover up who saved the reba on 21 kislev)

@Always_Ask_Questions,
Re job security for college educated:

Morgan Stanley is laying off roughly 2,500 employees as job cuts continue this year in the financial sector. Like other firms, Morgan Stanley aggressively hired during the pandemic, going from 60,000 employees in 2019 to 82,000 employees by year end 2022. The company had 83,000 employees at the end of 2025.

Tens of thousands of job cuts have already been made just two months into the new year, many of them white dollar. The financial sector has not been immune.

Citigroup and Blackrock have reportedly trimmed back their headcounts, and last week, financial technology company Block,

@Always_Ask_Questions,

Re the yeshiva system, to my point lets take an accontant. They only need 18 maybe 20 months of college via FDU at PCS. But they need 4 years of yeshiva credits (maybe its 3). I dont see the gain mathametcilly in making them sit in college for 4 years at Touro or Brooklyn college. why not learn full time? Similarly law school grads. I know BMG guys who went to Harvard law. Aron kotler is buddies with Noah Feldman and gets in 2-3 per semester. No Bachelors others than BMG . The only condition is that you need to obtain at least a 177 on the LSAT (I may off be one digit but something like that) The lawyers less smart attend Rutgers but its gets done via BMG. Again why sit in college. I see no point in college other than the parnsa it brings. Otherwise college isa cesspool with anti israel and kefirra . Its mostly nonsense. I Learned much more on my job and slef teaching, (including self trained computers) vs college.

Now lets say you attend college for 4 years after HS (maybe you lean a year first so its 5 years). Now you are 22 and single. Should they go to work before they need to? What about the non tznuis aspect for youngsters? I work in corporate. Its not the boggy monster people say about it. But at the same time the youngsters do hang out together and have a life. This isn’t 100 years ago when you went to work on your farm or printing press.

Post Covid, sure there was a hiring boom not reflective of the silicon valley bubble thats not busting quickly
Re AI, it will takeaway alot of entry level jobs. the savvy ones will now be the ones setting up the AI commands for those their senior levels. They may have to be able to mix coding (python and R) with AI skills. Thats the way forward. Its for sure a huge disruptor particularly on the entry level.

This all circles back to the idea that after this whole back and forth, the idea of college degrees for frum jews is questionable if there is a benefit. We definitely don’t believe there is a need for education purposes. There is only a need for parnasa. Now this is where I will agree with you a bit and say that our minds should be more open to college. I mean to say that its really person independent. Some wll make great accoutants. It saddens me a bit that when i started, it was “with it’ to become accontants via FDU. . Now thats less “in”. Its still full but people aren’t banging down the door like they used tyo. I think its a great degree even if you work for frum people. But at the end of the day, many jobs don’t need a degree and we have our won homegrown economy. And I don’t think college wholistically will solve our affordbility issues or that so many of charedim would do so much better. its marginal and helpful some of the time.

@Always_Ask_Questions
when i say\ the data re college grads is not or rather less releavnt for frum jews, I mean re oppurtunties. For a non jew without a degree where is he working? Who hires someone without a degree in the secular world? But in our own homegrown economy, mnay get hired with well paying jobs in non colllege degree fields too. Nursing home admins are a great example but thats only one of many. So the study about the salary gap college vs non college grads is less applicable for frum jews. And many of those eran just as much as people in my feild which is highly regarded. Whats more, in my feild there is a ceiling. So maybe after 7-8 years if real savvy you become a director. For AVP or more you need to be real savvy, slick and play the corp game. Even then the job security is fragile. They cut senior positions much quicker than the mid level postion who does the heavy lifiting. And so you cap out at say 200-250 after bonus with all on the books. Contrast that to a regional director at a nursing home, making 250K plus free car leases and other business expeneses which is a huge perk that brings the value way above 300K.

Fair point re the fact that as a business owner its hard to even survive without being gray bec many competitors are that. I concede on that one. But not everyone is a business owner and I think since it still exists in every field, college or not, that reasoning isn’t compelling in my mind. (as a side note, i know wealthy college educated who are pretty big ganavim too and sat or almost sat in jail)

@Always_Ask_Questions
” your ability to do a job and earing potential is lower than someone from a good college”

But thats factually not true. I know a ton of accountants who did just that and landed at the big 4, which is the most prestigious firms. So it is equal to those who attended regular colleges. T even know a few BMG Harvard law grads. And so in our community there isn’t a strong correlation between the two, albeit the correlation is not at 0%.

(As a side note, with AI today, proper grammar skills or well polished presentations are much easier to obtain without schooling)

The real issue is that even those highly college educated just don’t pay enough. The Jewish jobs pay better. Your accountant may not approve of that kind of pay, but mine does and so do many others. You may see it as morally wrong but its completely legal.

Re the percent of college gards rising, yes that may play a role in why there are fewer entry level jobs but its not the key reason. As per chat GPT below are the key factors. But before I list them let me say, it circles back to the point I am making. There is a larger barrier than ever to obtain entry level jobs in the secular world overall. Thats yet another reason why college is a bit outdated. It doesn’t offer the assurances and security that it used to. By the way there are alot more layoffs than years ago too. Throw that in the mix. Frum jobs offer much more job security. Now back to my notes from Chat Gpt.

Yes — rising bachelor’s and STEM attainment increases competition somewhat.
But the recent difficulty in entry-level hiring is more likely driven by:
Economic tightening
Sector-specific slowdowns (especially tech)
Employer risk aversion
Skill mismatch

Re Kollel, just to clarify, the idea that one should just get a degree so they have a “defined profession” and then they can sit and learn till they work is not realistic and misses the boat too. I work in corporate and have interviewed entry level applicants. If they got a degree 5-10 years ago and first now are applying for a job, its a huge question mark. Where were you till now especially if you are so passionate about your career? Its usually a red xx before you start. Companies hire and recruit seniors in college. Furthermore, life changes and interest changes. Many of my friends got their accounting degrees at young ages and never used it because by the time they went to work at 28 or 30, life and interests changed. Disclaimer, you are perhaps arguing that one should get a degree and go to work at 21. I think thats very flawed. One should not be working till they actually need the money especially at a young age when they need to still grow and lay a torah fundation. You are also advocating like a complete society reset that will never happen. This doesn’t mean that your wife works like a slave and many go to work before that.

All in all, the point remains that given the torah system we live in, going to college is a minor benefit for many. It isn’t as valuable as it used to be. It also won’t help us pay full tution. As a college grad in a very prestigious profession, I can attest that I can’t afford full tuition

@RightJew
You get a bachleors from BMG so no you don’t need 4 years of college like Touro. Thats the truth. You need to take a few pre reqs which they do in 3 months and then the degree. So maybe its 21 months, I knows 10’s of people who did it this way. This is the facts.

“In fact many Hareidi businesses are based on a business model of employing mostly low paid, low skill workers.”
Again I invite you to drive down Ave of the Americas in Lakewood and see for yourself. Tons of decent paying jobs for men. Now mathematically it may be less then I earn. I get a nice 401K etc. But they get the car under the business, tuition paid for by the business and other nice perks. On a anet basis they do better

I know that as of today this has been worked out and Bh the school reopened. But here is whats’ lacking form the conversation, Bnos penina served a purpose that most schools didn’t. Its there to accept almost all parents who just don’t have the protecttzia and connections to get into other schools. Its rat race to get into school and this offered an option to good parents who just don’t have that. The problem then arises, that The school becomes not the most fashionable school. If there isn’t competition to get in and maybe some parents are less shtultzy then the guys with money don’t send there. Now here is the thing. Most schools in Lakewood, rely on fundraising and donations to survive. They can’t do it just on tution. So how does the rich guy give money to? Where their children go and where its the “in place” to be honored by the dinner. Sadly the world works on kovod. So i don’t believe that parents pay less or don’t pay here compared to other schools. They just don;t have rich supporters.

Whats really needed, get together the rich guys have them fund the schools in town that aren’t out there for the rich. The ones that are inclusive and aren’t as hard to get in. of course if the school is dysfunctional they may feel like why give. But if its a fine school and money is the issue the askanim have a responsiblity to davka fund these schools first. They are the ones that deserve it

@flamingOTD
Once again Ill keep it simple. The Israeli govt does not do any systematic genocide. Thats completely false. I refuse to debate history or the old Nakba arguments. Not because I don’t think its flawed but because I want to focus on the present, last 25-50 years

In the present moment, Israel does not seek to kill or hurt any Palestianin other than terrorists who are out to kill or hurt us. If every one of them put down their guns today and said we are finished, no more Hamas , no more killing, we completely surrender any resistance, then not a single palestinain would get killed. All Palestinains who act peaceful are not targeted. Contrast that to Israel’s who were helping palestianins and pro peace on Oct 7 whop were still targeted and killed. So why were so mnay killed in Gaza? Because its a tough war when Hamas hides among the population or in its tunnels. Israel isn’t evil and is trying to do its best not to kill Palestinians.

Does that mean Palestianins don’t suffer? Ill be the first one to say yes they are suffering. Yes they are hungry. But why are they suffering? Not because of israel but because of Hamas. Many are part of a cult called Hamas. They have a stronghold over their people and want them to suffer. They want hunger and pain so they gain sympathy. They take away baby formula and bully their people to join the fight if you want your baby to live. Its one large Johnstown where its people drink the kool-aid

@UJM, You propose a non sensical solution, the second the arabs gave any power even if not an “arab state” just a religon neutral state they will kill us. Stop being so naive in thinking Oct 7 only happened to zionists. They would have had no issues cvs rapping your family or chopping your head off cvs. Mnay who they kidnapped where people who advocated for peace and giving them more.. Now do you want to debate if their anger is bec of zionism and had the state never have been founded it wouldn;t have happened? We can debate that history. (Perosnally I don’t think thats honest and its just amde upn fake news that kanaoim use). The main point is lets say you are right that its all the zionist fault. Its too late to move that clock back, Once the lion and mad men are out of the cage they won’t stop even if we hand them from the river to the sea.

To your theoretical but practically silly question of lets say it was all one land and they agreed to peace would we be OK to that? Again that depends will all us jews have a right to move there as a homeland even if its not under our government? Or would immigration be limited? Would we have the same freedoms?

Again its all theortical bec only a complete dummy would think that we are safe now once the arabs are wild? So right now we need our won army to protect us

@Yaakov Yosef A
Yes and no. I don;t know that Qatar is ready to just throw money at s0omehting that will get bombed. They aren’t that suicidal. Furthermore, israel I thi9nk will always end up with more land and a stronger buffer zone. Lastly, this place is in such dissary and people are so homeless, I think even that has limits. I am not saying never but they will need 10-20 years

I think at the end of the day, this is a mixed bag. Yes Hamas is back sadly. But they will think twice before attacking again. Sure they don’t care and are suicidal. But they lost all their leaders even the rich cats in Qatar got a shake. Their place is decimated even for their standard. The other enemies aside for Yemen got a good clap and didn’t help them much. They will need to focus on rebuilding in the short run.
Of course till moshiach comes that’s how life will be and we aren’t safe. But the reality is its not a total loss

@Avram in MD
1) I am not worried about using my compnay device for somethi9ng like YWN. They know people browse and its Ok as long as its within reason. Its not gezilah either as its the norm expected.
2) Your hunch is wrong and I would indeed get one if it was free. The money is holding me back.
3)yes people do need the internet on multiple devices. Wake up and smell the coffee.
4) the only data plan I pay extra for is my home internet which I need for work. Otherwise its $25 a month for phone plan with internet.

A bit late to this game but there are alot more oot chasdish communtites than whats listed
1) the county has multiple communuties. Montcello all year around is popular
2) Tampa FL- formerly beled and now generla chasdim
3) There are two communtites in AZ that are chasdish, Scottsdale and one more that has official anti vax laws (not getting involved ion politics just stating the facts)

For me firstly my work has its own filter for security and I can’t add more filters since it’d not my computer and I don’t have admin rights . It’s a “goyish” filter. Second on my personal devices I’d love to get a filter but can’t afford a few hundred dollars for my devices. It’s easy to say it’s only a few hundred till you have to pay for it. I have suggested on this forum before that TAG distribute free filters. It’s a tzedaka officially. Bikkur Cholom not only provides food but gives it free of charge . It’s 2025 where people throw out $1m on a simchas b shoeuva like it’s nothing and TAG can’t raise that money? Meanwhile what should I do when I can’t pay my bills ?

@yankel berel
you can’t let a bully win. We need to bully him back. And to start arguing gemaras and medrshim is pointless. He will have a torah and drei for everything as to why he is right. But when its simple emuna pshuta where we know bug tzadkim (gedolim or not) said things not like him its simple. who do you trust them or the “small” ha”katan”? (yes he will say they weren’t enough of a gadol bla bla but they were holy people so to bad on him)

@somejewiknow
Wrong if a holy Jew says it that is Torah msina. I don’t buy that your Torah is from sina . One can find a medresh for any viewpoint when it comes to these topics. Beautiful you can drei akup and find all the right things to support you . But they also have sources and never backed down . Unless you are as big as them your words mean nothing to me . No offense . So like I’d rather trust R Moshe Wolfson zl than you . That’s not kefira. And I’d rather trust the holy hysatner or sadiguyera Reba than you . Sorry I boxed you in because I won’t fall for your bully tactics where everyone else source is bad and only yours is good. It’s not kefira to say that a holy tzadik held Zionism is a haschalta degula and I hold of it. No he need not be the leading gadol

@yankel berel
Its common theme here. Another big example is the respect the C chaim had for R Kook Zl. The naysayers will say the story of him walking out during the convention when they bshmutzed r kook was made up. But really was the whole thing made up? Moreover, there are multiple sources about the C Chaim’s respect for R kook. I heard from a chashiva RY bshem the Alfandri that he said the reaosn the C Chaim never made it to EY was that had he come he would have made shalom between R Kook zl and R Zonnenfeld zl and then moshiach would have came. It wasn’t ye the time. He also reviewed the mishana berurah for the chaim after his shver died. These are just a few. One can deny one story but there are multiple stories about their connection. We also all know about the famous visit to America. Initally they wanted R Chaim ozer to come but he was too weak so he sent the R Meir simcha and R kook zl. All poiting to the same thing. They may have disagreed but if he was a “kofer” what the c chaim and R chaim ozer held of him in such high esteem? Now i am sure the naysayer have an answer for everything. But its baloney. An answer doesn’t mean you are right , it just means you are a better debater. The truth lays within. Don;t get fazed by “their “bullying tactics. (I say “their” bec I suspect its all on bully person)

@SQUARE_ROOT
Yes all jews have chezkas kashrus. On top of that the OU is someone who we all eat their food. Moreover, Noone denies R Herzog said this over. Now granted R Herzog was as religous zionist as they come. Does anyone know how much he was moser nefesh to save jews during the holocuast? And how much torah he knew. I don’t know that even the Stamar reba would call him a liar. I am sure he held he was misguided and had wrong hashkofos but a lair?

Furthermore, there is what we’d call a raglim ldvor. R Meltzer son became head of hesder and R isser zalman was very close to R Kook zl. All of this is facts.

When it doesn’t fit someone’s narrative they decide to bully and call us a lair