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@yankel berel
you can’t let a bully win. We need to bully him back. And to start arguing gemaras and medrshim is pointless. He will have a torah and drei for everything as to why he is right. But when its simple emuna pshuta where we know bug tzadkim (gedolim or not) said things not like him its simple. who do you trust them or the “small” ha”katan”? (yes he will say they weren’t enough of a gadol bla bla but they were holy people so to bad on him)@ HaKatan
Yea sure you have sources like Briska Rav and R elchanon. But so what? I have the rizyna Rebas, r isser zalman, r dessler etc. (There are many more)
The idea that haschalta degula can’t last for 75+ years is silly . Maybe it can last for 200 years . That’s your own made up theory. Meanwhile I heard from tzadkim of today the same. You know how to make up nice Torahs and drei akup. We have mesora . This is a new twist that you made up. Who says it’s only a year or two. No it’s not a rebellion of our torah. Those are your catchy buzzwords . And yes you’ll qoute from R elchanon but that’s him. There are two sides so no zionism is not a rebellion . But I’ll tell you what is . Secularism is a rebellion . So for that I agree with you . But hesder for example is tzadikim@somejewiknow
Wrong if a holy Jew says it that is Torah msina. I don’t buy that your Torah is from sina . One can find a medresh for any viewpoint when it comes to these topics. Beautiful you can drei akup and find all the right things to support you . But they also have sources and never backed down . Unless you are as big as them your words mean nothing to me . No offense . So like I’d rather trust R Moshe Wolfson zl than you . That’s not kefira. And I’d rather trust the holy hysatner or sadiguyera Reba than you . Sorry I boxed you in because I won’t fall for your bully tactics where everyone else source is bad and only yours is good. It’s not kefira to say that a holy tzadik held Zionism is a haschalta degula and I hold of it. No he need not be the leading gadol@hakatan
1) they aren’t weak stories . They just don’t conform to you so it’s weak
2) many rabbonim including the holy hysatna zl said in public they have answers to everyone of the Satmar Reba responses but they won’t debate him. (My guess is he was a bully a bit. Yes a holy man and with so many going secular before and right after the war this was his way l. But a bully it was)
3) this is the main point . You have it all wrong.
It’s not about answers and philosophy. Anyone can dig up a med rash or Torah and say it. It’s about mesora . This was their belief . They said it’s a haschalta dgeula . And they openly said not to bashmutz R kook. No “answers” need to be said . If these holy people proclaimed it then that’s what it is period . Of course there are sources like the holy r elchanon zl hyd who disagreed . That makes it an equal
Machlokos both sides are holy or as you say shikul hadas is needed .
To repeat I don’t want answers or torahs . If a gadol or even holy Jew says it that’s enough@yankel berel
Its common theme here. Another big example is the respect the C chaim had for R Kook Zl. The naysayers will say the story of him walking out during the convention when they bshmutzed r kook was made up. But really was the whole thing made up? Moreover, there are multiple sources about the C Chaim’s respect for R kook. I heard from a chashiva RY bshem the Alfandri that he said the reaosn the C Chaim never made it to EY was that had he come he would have made shalom between R Kook zl and R Zonnenfeld zl and then moshiach would have came. It wasn’t ye the time. He also reviewed the mishana berurah for the chaim after his shver died. These are just a few. One can deny one story but there are multiple stories about their connection. We also all know about the famous visit to America. Initally they wanted R Chaim ozer to come but he was too weak so he sent the R Meir simcha and R kook zl. All poiting to the same thing. They may have disagreed but if he was a “kofer” what the c chaim and R chaim ozer held of him in such high esteem? Now i am sure the naysayer have an answer for everything. But its baloney. An answer doesn’t mean you are right , it just means you are a better debater. The truth lays within. Don;t get fazed by “their “bullying tactics. (I say “their” bec I suspect its all on bully person)@somejewiknow
If R Desller wrote it it isn’t kefira. End of story. i am not as smart as you and don’t have every gotcha answer . i cant twist every response to the 3 shavous to disprove you. But we go with simple emuna of gedloim who said things via a mesora. if R desller , R isser zalman, and other said its an aschlta degulah then thats what it is. R wolfson zl said it was “shevri kelim” instead of moshiach and the 6- day war was a nes. I go with my mesora dn you can go with yours. but don’t call the other a kofer. And I am not interested in your lomdeshai drei kup sources or your theories about whether someone is a gadol. Or wheher it being said over vs wirtten in a sefer mattersa. Thats all just dering akup nonsense. We have our mesora for our rebbes and thats enough for judiasmP.S. calling it “our state” seems extreme even for me. But aschlta degulah or shveri kelim has a mesora from many.
@SQUARE_ROOT
Yes all jews have chezkas kashrus. On top of that the OU is someone who we all eat their food. Moreover, Noone denies R Herzog said this over. Now granted R Herzog was as religous zionist as they come. Does anyone know how much he was moser nefesh to save jews during the holocuast? And how much torah he knew. I don’t know that even the Stamar reba would call him a liar. I am sure he held he was misguided and had wrong hashkofos but a lair?Furthermore, there is what we’d call a raglim ldvor. R Meltzer son became head of hesder and R isser zalman was very close to R Kook zl. All of this is facts.
When it doesn’t fit someone’s narrative they decide to bully and call us a lair
@ ujm
Right only religious zionists lie , you don’t lie? How dare you call it a lie ? Why because you can’t admit others held it was an aschlata dgeula. You can’t lie about public statements. R isser zalman said this in public .Not that I need further proof but you think it’s coincidence that his son became head of hesder
You think it’s coinicidemce that he was close to R kook ?There is only one liar . And I won’t stand for your bullying just because you can’t bring yourself to admit the hard truth. No I say the truth . And the ou is more honest than you as was rabbi Herzog I will continue to say R isser zalmam held this way
@SQUARE_ROOT
Jewish action Published by the OU. Rabbi Herzog said it over as well. They qoute from Harav Dessler as well. Now the naysayers on here will say oh you can’t trust those sources. Well its not the only source and frankly Rabbi Herzog wouldn’t lie outright when he gave his hesped. But I bet the naysayers will continue to lie because they are stubborn or drei akup and wiggle their way out. They think its only their way in torah and noone else counts. Oh and everything anyone slightly MO says is all lies. Only they say the truth. By the way if you know anything aboiut R Isser Zalman and how close he was to R Kook or that his son became head of hesder it kind of lines up. Don’t worry they will wiggle out of that too. But I won;t get bullied by drei kups. The truth is there are many paths to the torah and zionsim . Both the anti and pro were holy people. Its not for me to decide who is more rightous.@ujm
Wrong you lie because it not covinenet. Here is a quote from R Isser Zalman
“A state is something that we have not had for nearly two thousand years, and now it is being offered to us—even if only in a small measure for now. Please, do not reject it. It is evident that it is from Heaven and is a sign of the beginning of redemption.”Here are a few more facts
1) His son was head of Hesder (You think that was by accident?)
2) he was close to R kook ZL
3) He was supportive of Rabbi Herzog zl tooThere were gedolim after the war who held of zionsim as a state. Gedolim such as R isser zalamn (R aron shver) whose own son was the head of mizrachi, Rizyna rebas, who were very holy jews. (the stamar reba went special to the hystina to get him to change his mind). Even R Herzog zl was a huge gadol. Then you have the ponvitcha rav who raised the siaeli falg on yom hatzmot and invited the non frum knesset members to the girubndb reaking cermenoy in punvicth. I heard from R Moshe wolfson zl both how the 6-day war was a nes and that 1948 was an eis rotzon for moshiach but instead we received the medina was “shiveri kelim”. His rebbbe R sharga feivel made a bracha when the state was founded. This is a fact that mnay gedolim held having a state is a good thing. I don’t really take much trust in your quotes from R Avhram Yehousha. Someione who has no shame to belittle R Moshe zl and other gedolim at his Chumash shuir has no place at the table. he may be sharp witted but stiita chutzpahnik and bad person.
@Hakatan,
I love both the state of Israel and NK. Both have their sources and das torah. There are many paths and each has to follow their shikul hadas. Zionsim has strong roots in our torah,Many such as rizyna chasdim have a strong mesora to support Israel.. A gemera and sources or psakim in formal writing are not needed. Yiddihskiet is about mesora. Thats very strong in rizyahn. of course there are gedolim like R Kook zl who were held in high esteem by many prior gedolim in addition to many written responses that support zionsim. But the mesora is the ikkur bec everything else can be twisted and answered up aside for clear mesora.
Then there is also NK who have their mesora and are clearly holy jews. I think there is support for Torah vyoiah for sure. The question becomes if NK holds of R weiss and his actions. Bpashtus they don’t even represent NK. Is that the path of R Amaram Blau and R Katzenelenbogen? I am not sure they have anything to back them up. However the NK mesora has a source.
Lastly I surely don’t see the heter forthe so called “NK” to march next to untznuisdika ladies at free palestian rally. Its a tremendous pirtza and a smack on our kedusha. To stand next to prusta Columbia University students? pretzius Geeevald
@The little I know
I take Continuing ED too. Sorry but that’s a joke and not rigorous. As far as schooling is concerned the majority can just take 2 years of school. That’s simply the fact. I can list about 25 therapists that I know who didn’t go through tough schooling like a dr. And I mean the classic social worker. Don’t kid yourself look at all the himeisha courses in social work. They wouldn’t have that crowd if it was rigorous like medical school. Even the doctorates are a joke. These are facts not opinions. Now maybe you don’t need as much schooling for everything but still these are the facts. Of course psychologists are of a different league but I refer to the social work field which is the overwhelming majorty.You also feel to negate my other points. Its so obscure to begin with. Define who is really ill and who isn’t. What’s the cure? Some need it for life. And what’s the success rate? Its kind of the wild west out there with mental heath. This isn’t to say its all a fraud. But its just way overdone . its just not something we can pour money in. My opinion is that insurance or medicaid shouldn’t cover that. We can make it like Dental, a supplementary coverage for those who chose to pay, that will also have limits
I think scam is a strong word. I’d phrase it like this, there are no free lunches and everything costs money. Private insurance has to raise premiums to cover therapists now. Medicaid is ballooning out of control and bankrupting our country. suffice it to say we don’t have unlimited resources. Now the question is, if spending so much to solve mental health issues are efficient? So ask yourself the following,
Define who needs a therapist and who doesn’t? We know for example the cvs cancer lo alinu is very definable. One sees it on a cat scan etc. Define what is menatlly ill and what is isn’t? Similarly do we all really need a therapist when we go through a hardship? My grandparents went through the holocaust and had nightmare’s every night yet never saw a therapist. Obviously that’s an extreme but do we always need to see someone? Is every issue unsolvable with our own grit and determination?
Next question, whats the defined cure? For yena machala the goal is to shrink the tumor and the treatments are proven to work in many instances. What’s proven here and how efficient is the cure? For many they will never break out of their cycle and will be like that for life. I get you that some of it is about managing living with the illness just like someone manages diabetes etc. But even that, how effective is it really in managing it? And it mostly will never get rid of it.
Furthermore, what makes a therapist equipped? Not to knock many hard working therapists. But an oncologist for example attends rigorous training and schooling for years. A therapist attends a sara schneir online zoom class for 2 years? It just doesn’t seem to that the same level of rigor is required.
I am sure therapy helps some people, some marginally and a few majorly and many barely anything. The question is really if this is an effiecnt use of limited resources?
Years ago most non chasdish (chasdim were the minoirty) did not cover their hair at all. This includes many prestgious rabbnim’s wives. And so this who9le conversation is kind of based on the assumption that we are better than they were. Look at pics of your great grnadmother whether in the lower east side or in Budapest. Most did not cover their hair when married
Here is another simple solution. The non chasdish cheders should adopt the chasdish style in term of when cheder starts for a young boy.. By chasdim kindergraden is essentially primary/pre=1a. And pre-1a by them is first grade better known as Kita alef.. This way boys will essentially go to EY a year younger and come back a year younger, For anyone who says but the boys are too young to start then , well chasdim start then and its seems fine? When I grew up it was normal to be bar mitzavh in 8th grade even in non chasidsh schools. Now its 7th grade. What for?
There are many answers to the 3 shavous
1) We don’t pasken like aggadata
2) Its only when the goyim keep their oath and don’t cheper jews. Once there was a holocaust thats gone.There are others too. i had a list of 3-4. Now to be fair the Satmar reba disputed these. But those that held these views were not around then anymore to answer the reba. Furthermore, the reba disputed these after the medina was founded already. At that point in time it was a mute point since it was a done deal so why argue with someone who had the bully pulpit like the satmar reba who if you dared dispute him, his mafia would go after you. he himslef was a huge tzadik but his kanois stirred the mafia around him.
As far as what agudah held, it was diverse. Ther were some to the left and some to the right. Many of the rizyna rebas held zioinsm is al pi torah and others held not like that and you had people in the middle. The imeri emes held R Kook zl was tzadik who was just misguided due to his tzidkus as you see in his letter. Many many big gedolim gheld of R Kook inlcuding R isser zlaman and R aryeah Levin. of course the chaftez chaim held of him too. Move to today when the battle is different and its isn’t about a state rather its about secularism. I think some of it is mistrust vs real issues while some of it is that the system grew into an unprecndted system where being charedi means to learn a whole life and not work because of the way things were shteled avek by the chazon ish years ago. . Its hard to break from that. But at the need of the day agaudah shita today is more to the right in terms of joining the army.
Re zionisim itself its machlokos and both sides have strong torah sources
@Non Political
the truth is both though. There were definitely zionists out there to shamd and who hated the frum. Ben Gurion YMS and his team openly stated so. We know they kidnapped from children from birth and sent them to frei kibbutizm. Th3e chazon ish z’l own assistant use to sneak in to try to get them back. We all know the fiaah yossela story where the govt spend resources that could have been used to hunt down Mengeles YMS , but instead they went and used it to hunt down Yossela hiddne by rus Blau and staying by a satmara in willamsburg just to shmad him. On the other hand there are good zionsists such as Began and others who were perhaps semi or not frum but not out to get the charedim to be not frum. Fast foward to today and almost no zionists is out to make charedim not frum anymore. Their goal is that they fight and work vs just learning. Maybe they are out to make them 5-towns bal habatim vs chasidsiha yidden or BMG yungerlitCorrection to my other post, I meant Freudiger not stern
@DaMoshe
Also worth noting that there were many good and bad even among the nonf rum. So ben gurion was a rasha and i think that clear. He was out to shmad. We see how he kidnaped innocent children born after the holocaust and immigrants tearing them away from their mothers just to raise them in a non frum kibbutz. He was a murderer too as what occured with Began and the boat. On the other hand, Began was righteous despite being mostly secular (half frum). He commanded his army not to shoot back at ben gurion because we don’t shoot at other jews. This was after Ben Gurion YMS killed any of Began’s people. As it pertains to the war, yes the Zionists on charge then such as Ben Gruron and his ilk said one cow in Palestine is better than 1000 jews in Europe. They impeded R Michoel ber zl henceforth, Ben Hecht book.On the other hand there were members of the Zionist underground who were cooperative and did save jews. I don’t recall if Gisi felishman wa s a zionist but she was not frum yet saved jews. Thne you had jews like Samu (Shmuel) Stern, who its very hard to know what the right thing to do was during the war. Do you try to cooperate with germans to save a few which he did? Or do you tell everyone to run and hope more survive? Hindsight is always 20/20. I suspect many of the zionists were stuck with that dilemna tooEither way there is amesora form many holy people like R Wolfson and the Rizyna rebas that the founding of the state of Israel was a good thing, albiet onlt “shiveri kelim”
I heard nearly the same exact words from R Moshe Wolfson zl who was a Talmud of R Yakov and in fact his hired mashgiach and right hand man. He gave us a whole shuir on the miracles and virtues of Zionism despite opposing its secular nature . It wasn’t hearsay or an ArtScroll book. I heard it from the tzadik mouth. This is more reliable than a source from our Torah that can always be interpreted how one likes. This is a mesora from a tazadik. By the way he also once told me that part of the reason that he says long sholosh seudas Torah was due to what he saw by the Satmar Reba Zya . So he knew all sides yet said what he said
@somejewiknow
reigkus Zionism ain’t Herasy. Many are mote ehrlich than Satmar chasidim. Look at the way they Daven and learn and do mitzvos even in the toughest times like during a war. Throughout Jewish history the litmus test and gold standard of what makes an ideology aprikrosis has always been look at both how it evolved and what people do during tough times. Anything that apkikorsis whether is Shabsi Tzvi or reform or communism etc, you look at he next generation and you see how they evolved . Did they stay as Shoner Torah umitzvos. Religious Zionism get more ehrlich not less. That’s a Siman that they ate part of frum Torah Judaism. They may be a different ideology and that where shikul hadas comes and says what path to follow . But of course both are holy@Yaakov Yosef A
i can agree with the “was”. Although I’d say that in certain “ashkenaz ” circles there was a very strong repsect for the RUV also just much as as by chasdim. Especially those part of a kehila which did succeed in keeping out the neologs.
However, I beg to differ on the “are better” aspect. Lately Chasdim are having a big issues with OTD, semi OTD , Tuna baigels etc. The core chasidus becomes more and more chinyuked (At times thats a good thing and at times its overdone). But not of all its people are holding by its draconain taknus. They then became shunned or second c;lass citzens. Their success rate is becoming lower and lower. Meanwhile in litfisha circles even someone not holding by the rules of the “yeshiva world” still are basically stickling around and often their children still become “yeshivish”. Chasdim need to wake up and address the crisis in their midst. Its a big issue
@Always_Ask_Questions
Its not clear what R Isser zalamn persoanlly held re the medina but I believe actions matter. Lamza he was very close to R Kook Zl and his son became the next RY of Hesder. He was proud of that son just as much as his edim R Aron ZlForgive me for saying this but your response is classical whitewashing. Its always a nice convenient answer to say oh he was so influential and the other rabbonim had no choice. In fact I believe that’s the excuse why so many gedolim addressed R Kook Zl with such high esteem. Same excuse oh he was so influential that they had no choice. (As if being the chief rabbi of so0me third world backwards non country was so influential)
Here is the truth, R Aron would never have sat down with a true kofer or apikoros no matter how influential they are. R Aron was not a push over or one to compromise He was pure. And in fact he didn’t sit down with anyone in JTS despite the fact that Rabbi Sol Liberman was a genuis and knew kol hatorah kula. (He was also the chazon ish cousin) Furthermore, as I noted, R Aron asked him to give a shteler to one of his talmidim in YU. If YU is complete kefira how can R Aron do that? Its also well known that the two families were close too.
(Side note, its funny how you quote R Isser zalman zl all of a sudden. You do know that he was very close to R Kook Zl. And his own son became head of hesder after R Kook)
Bottom line, yes R Aron was very mad at R JB and did not hold of his approach. He was very vocal and sharp. But he didn’t mean what he said lieterally. He still held him in high esteem. Thes excuses that oh he had no choice because he was inlfuential, I just don’t buy them
@HaKatan
Yet R Aron sat with him for chinuch Atzmo. He had a strong personal connection. There are eyewitness testimonies that he walked into YU to ask R JB ZL to provide a shteler for a close talmid. (This isn’t heresay, it happened). Rabbi JB came to R aron levaya. And R Malkiel shlita was on his way to rabbi JB levaya till R Elya Svei stopped him. And so people say sharp things but actions matter. its clear that rabbi Solvetchikc was considered a gadol despire R Aron’s comments.To put things in post war perspective. Aguda had a huge spectrum. There were sone who were totally pro Zionism but were anti secular and opposed Israel only because of its secular nature . They even once held that you should fight in the IDF and be happy there is a state yet oppose the secular aspect. Others held don’t join the idfakd we are opposed to the statehood yet since we have no choice cooperate for the better cause. Then others were somewhat in the middle, they did join and support the IDF but didn’t oppose the state or the idea of it. They kind of tacitly supported it via raising flags and inviting its secular members to speak. That’s where most of the yeshiva world was. So punivitch chevron and the Mir held that as did most of the USA . Basically proud that there is a state but unhappy about it being secular.However basically cooperative unless it was a direct edict like gyuis bnos. Then there was briska rav who didn’t have a yeshiva and just gave shuir to10-15 bochrim in his dinning room . He was totally opposed but a minority .
That’s still very different than REITs who was mizrachi..But there were holy Jews on the mizrachi side too. And it’s really a shikul hadas who you hold like
This is very complex question that needs to be broken down into many pieces. Firstly what’s Zionism ? Is it the idea of having our own country or is it about cooperating with secularists who are anti Torah ? Then there is the pre war to post war . Then there is Agudah vs mizrachi. Then there is peleg vs main agudaj
So before the war there were many pro the idea of a state just not a secular state. Yes R elchanon and r Chaim were anti as were of course the yershalmi tzadkim. But then you had R isser zalman zl and R Areya levin and even R Chaim ozer to an extent who were pro Zionism as in a state and supported R kook .
After the war , the punvitcha rav and R Lazer yudel Zl raised the flag and somewhat supported Zionism.
In the USA and Canada most RY supported the agudah faction with some like R Shrage fievel very supportive of Zionism. All of them held that secularism is evils and we need to oppose the govt of Israel because it’s secular and not because having a country is bad. R JB Zl on the other hand supported mizrachi and not agudah thereby saying he supports even secular Israel. So they differed then But they both held that once Israel is here to stay let’s work with them.Fast forward to 2025 . The American yeshiva system became influenced by the hard core Hungarian chasdim like Satmar and by brisk. So that slowly morphed into this new ideology that essentially opposes Israel completely but because of R Aron zl traditionally being part of agudah it’s somehow still Agudah even though it’s closer to Satmar now .
@Kuvult
So far asdie for a few hiccups its been working in our favor. its two sided. It also means that Hamas and Qatar can’t pressure Trump into a deal if he doesn’t like the deal either. They surely don’t like Trump’s Gaza plan and are more boxed in. Israel got tons of weapons that Biden never sent. And Israel is now allowed to block humantarin aid while trump fully supports him. Did he at one point try to chat with Hamas? yes for like a day but he saw that was a bad idea and stopped. Re his talks with Iran lets see. But it won’t get anyhwere and Trump ain’t that stupid. Furthermore, his base is fully pro israel. and hate Muslims They weren’t fully pro Ukraine and so that’s not analagous.All In all, I have heard this hype before. But I think that fear is unfounded. I think its just an excuse that the frum never Trump folks use because they can’t admit that Trump is the biggest brocho for israel. To GadolHatorah point, his craziness is bad for other things like Cancer research (as much as I love him going after Harvard, but not that)
One more point, I think the good and bad of Trump is really all one Trump. it just sometimes works in our favor and sometimes it does not. Its really one rash behavioral altitude. Either he hates something or loves it. He goes full throttle once he forms his belief and there is no budging him easily. So this is good for us when it pertains to israel. No nonsense and no monkey business with terrorists and its supporters. But for example tariffs, reducing size of govt or immigration require a more nuanced balanced approach. With trump you get one pckaage deal. His “middas” are a blessing and curse
@MRS PLONY
No you aren’t. I second your opinion. Not only that but I think you are so spot on.The never Trumpers will never admit that Trump is a huge Bracha for Israel and its current war. Whether it’s the Trump Gaza plan, the fight with the houthis, giving Israel a free hand to do what it pleases, sending all and any weapons needed etc. And fighting anti semitism and the colleges.
On the other hand, the maga folks will never admit that hegseth is a threat to public safety. Or that the Trump Tarrifs are insane and destabilizing in so many ways. It’s out of control. Even his anti immigrant rant and MS13 fights are populist overdone fights. DOGE and empowerment musk like this is crazy too. Although cutting the federal govt is not a bad thing if done wisely.
So yes you have my vote . And both sides are so stuck in the mud that neither can admit the in between
@somejewiknow
That’s only if it’s halcha and not if it’s hashkafa. In hashkafa like Zionism there is no such obligation.Furthermore, if the leading anti lived later they surely don’t have to. And certainly if those who published were bullied into submission by his mafia. But all this is secondary
@somejewiknow
Sichos Mussar, Maamar 22 (Parshas Vayigash),Furthermore, you need to end these made up rules that we need a written source. if a gadol says its opnely thats fine too.
@Always_Ask_Questions
Its a very confusing subject. is advocating to live in EY the same thing as advocating for a statehood? The Chovevi tzion definitely was very for moving to EY too, Its hard to know although it would seem that they’d be pro. I think its fair to say that anyone who advocated to move to EY after 1917 when the baflor declaration was approved knew that by advoctaing to move there you are by default supporting zionsim.The other concept that somejew keeps on mixing up is what the oppostion was. The Imeri emes for example clearly wasn’t happy with R kook Zl giving heterim and being so open to welcome the not frum He doesn’t wite anything about the idea of shlosh shevous or taking back land. . Its not zionsim that he is against but rather its seculrism. There always two distinct issues that get confused. The Stamar hungarain camp was against ziosnism as were the briskers but the poylisahs and others were against secularism.
Just stating the obvious, the question of Zionism is not a matter of Halacha in which one needs to write a Sefer to defend. It’s an hashkafa to which when there is mesora and the tzadik repeatedly supports it that’s enough. I don’t mean just one random story. But when it’s a story done in front on 100s of people in public over and over again that’s enough to say it has a place. And the tzadik need not provide the support for a pro Zionist stand. Just declaring it is enough.
That brings me to my point that the rizyna Reba’s all openly supported Zionism . It therefore has a place in Judaism. These were multiple Reba’s and holy people all openly declaring support such as openly celebrating Yom hatzmut.
Now to the next point R Kook zl. All we need to establish was that he was a gadol. And we know that because R Areya Levin and R isser zalman all held him in high esteem in addition to so many other older gedolim like R Chaim ozer and the chafetz Chaim. We also know that he was R Elyshav zl rebbe and mesadar kiddushin. R Elyashiv never let anyone bashmutz him and held of him in public. Does that mean that they held of his Zionist ideals ? Probably not . Although R elyshav worked for Zionists all the years . If Zionism is like the conservative movement you can’t be a rabbi for JTS and frum. That was accepted. And so by the fact that R elyshav worked for them, and held R Kook in such high esteem, it’s clear that Zionism isn’t outright kefira.
To be crystal clear Zionism is hashkafa that need not be defended by Torah sources. You could look at actions and statements by gedolim such as the rizyna Reba’s and R elishyav and that’s enough to say it’s part of Judaism and each one follow what they hold is best.
Lastly, the Zionist issue is different than the secular issue. A lot of the opposition to R Kook wasn’t about Zionism rather it was about that he cooperated and tolerated too many secular people who are against our Torah . This was the opposition of the imeri emes etc. That’s true with wzo too. And so it’s a hard call@2scents
I think that’s a very PC view. Some are not exterme and would rather money or lavish lifestyles vs violence. They are usually modern and less “frum” who just aren’t as devout. But the core of Islam is still about violence. I haven’t seen any “peaceful” Muslims denounce Hamas at the UN..More generally speaking any religion that produces a large amount of violent cult like followers such as Islam there is something fundamentally wrong with the religion as a whole. In other words even if there are 1B peaceful Muslims but there are 20M who are violent, the fact that it can produce 20M violent followers says alot. Yes us frum jews have a few crazies too like Lev Tahor or Boruch Goldstein but its a blip. Everyone has a few bad actors. However, when its so large in size that brings up the question that there is a larger fundamental issue. This is even more profound when the other “frum muslims” won’t denounce the radical’s like Frum jews do.
@Avram in MD
The physical needs of a teen are different than an adult. A teen doesn’t need to bank or shop. They don’t drive etc. For a teen it’s mostly entertainment. And so to say that a teen would say different about it being g necessity is kind of just denying the basic “metzias” of what it’s used for. It’s not a comparison between a teen and an adult.I should say though that non smart phones but internet devices, such as a computer or iPad, while not a necessity, it’s still somewhat so the norm even for teens . And if you don’t provide a kosher outlet like 24/6 which tag banned, they will resort to you tube and goyisha videos. But that’s a different discussion than smartphones
Re your kosher phone idea, I need to be able to browse at times and I also need the convenience of going to an App Store and just downloading apps as needed. It’s so part of my life. The idea of a kosher phone with the apps that I need when I don’t know all the apps I need daily plus I he’d to browse and look up things, it’s just very Amish to me. Now you’ll say that for kedusha I should be moser nefesh and live with that inconvenience. Ok but then you are admitting that it’s a necessity and rather saying I should forgo a necessity.
A normal frum family will have at least two smartphones, a work laptop and family computer plus an iPad or some other device plus maybe a car etc . It’s just growing in size. I think a smartphone for parents is a basic necessity like a phone was when we grew up. Again I get that we should go above that but you are asking to forgo a basic standard in society that’s used for daily functions and not just for entertainment
@☕ DaasYochid ☕
Thats not a fair comparison. There is not spiritual harm there. And there is no tzedaka out there dedicated to cars. Here you have a tzedaka already that’s there to push filters. If not for tag people wouldn’t have filters. So it’s very different. I use bikkur cholim as an example where they provide a full service including free housing near hospitals. The idea is that internet is a huge yetzer hara.one of the biggest biggest barrier and excuse is that it cost money so you push it off. Here you are a tzeadaka that on the surface (unless you read the fine print) seems to impress upon you that they get you filters for free.@talkingtachlisnow26
Your response had a tinge of arrogance in it but it deserves a response and if you chose not to respond that’s your choice
1) not every charedi holds you need a filter. Stolin for example holds you don’t. And others also do but they can’t say so in public. Furthermore, modern orthodox hold you don’t need. They are fine Torah Jews too. This idea that we only discuss or care about “yeshiva world” is so selfish.
2) you dont know what you are talking about when you say if you can afford a device you can afford a filter and it’s buy a barrier. You can get a phone for $50 and it lasts for 3 years . A filter could be $19.99 a month. I got a laptop for free as part of a credit card perk. People buy Tesla because they can’t afford any other car nowadays . When they had those tax breaks a Tesla was by far the cheapest.
3) aside for the above two points you miss the point. At the end of the day filters are something people are lax on. Even if you say it is an obligation, Lmasa many don’t do it or push it off. I know this for a fact. This is on top of the fact that many in the “yeshiva world” watch Netflix and other videos . I want say which neighborhoods but you can all figure it out. So you can say it’s an obligation but so many don’t follow or slip. TAG as an organization that’s dedicated toward this cause has a responsibility to win over us lax people. And you with your elitist idea that it’s a personal accountability and not the klal job is just you being an elitist. In an area where the yetzer hara and Nisyan is so strong of course it’s your job to help. Free filters do just that@Avram in MD
So now you are moving the conversion from internet devices to smartphones to teens. So let me clear the air
1) When I say internet devices are nearly a necessity in 2025, I do not mean a smartphone for teens. Of course that is not a must a necessity and is destructive even for non religous people.
2) So what do I mean? I mean the idea that a FAMILY as a whole needs to be connected to the internet, typically via multiple devices
3) so what kind of devices do refer to? It varies from a family to family. But I’d say parents need smartphones , PC’s, laptops are needed, your car, maybe your some other smart screen , IPAD etc. Do kids “need” to own that? No. But families whole likely do need some of my list.To be clear, I don’t think its being Amish if you don’t hand your child a smartphone with instragram on it. But it is being Amish if you say that internet for an entire family isn’t a necessity in 2025. Also a necessity I admit can be a bit ambiguous. People can live without it However, ist nearly a need like electricty. Leaving out any danger those are the facts. Now you bring danger in to the picture. That doesn’t change the facts though.
So if the facts are that internet connected devices are a need, and a typical family’s needs multiple device. we also know that yes it posses a danger even more so to teens. We can ask families to pay $20 a month per device. but that quikcly end sup being $100 a month and if they don’t disconnect /cancel filters on the old discarded devices it quikcly piles up. Youi can see how thats a huge strain. And the right thing to do is for TAG who has the resouces and know how plus it is a tzedak already, to supply free filters while requesting a donation
I also challenge TAG to wake up a little and end these silly bans like on 24-6 devices because Oy vey it can connect to the internet even though parents can lock that connection and contorl when a child even uses that. thats on top of the fact that its content is kosher. Like do they realize what 90% were doing during covid wtahcing you tube and goyish stuff? Even now if you want kids not towatch netflex give them ksoher stuff. Stop with this farfarmukait. But this is a side topic.
Just to reiterate we agree re children having smartphones thats not a necssity.
@ amom
1) I am not tech savvy but I think there are solutions such as just child locks that can be leveraged. It won’t block as much but it takes care of key risks. Let’s not aim
For perfection. And yes Tag ups the ante for the schools
2) I have never heard of filter sponsors and I struggle with paying for some of them myself . At times I do go without filters because of the costs
3) I have had similar stories with TAG. I once told them I need you tube for work, which is true. (By now I can perhaps get away with chat gpt.) They told me well what would you do if you tube never existed ? Like seriously? This is my need now .@Avram in MD
There is workaround for everything. define a necessity. If it means something that you absolutely can’t live without such as working then yes you’d be correct in saying outside of work it isn’t a total must. But I think most people define a necessity as something that’s so part and parcel of society, in so many areas from shopping to banking to travel to cars to appliances. Sure technically it’s just a convenience but it’s a very very strong convenience that touches upon so many aspects in life. All that you mention are simply workarounds and not the normal accepted practices in 2025. To need to schlep to omny stations are all huge inconveniences. It’s enough to be called a necessity, especially with the combination that you’ll be using it at work too. As I noted electricity is not a must either. I get that it’s not “dangerous” like the internet so who cares. But the point of my analogy is to say that just like electricity is a necessity so to the internet. I am leaving out the fact that eventually you won’t be able to never use internet as all cars will have it and airport checks ins etc will only be via internet.I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Because the internet is spiritually dangerous you are forcing yourself to take an unrealistic position. You don’t feel it’s a necessity because you don’t want it to be a necessity vs facing the true reality.
Just to sum it up the translation of the word “necessity” is perhaps where we differ. If you’d like let’s call it a very strong need. And just because it’s dangerous (to some) doesn’t negate that need. Since it is a strong need, a larger focus on free filters must be provided .
@ Avram in MD
1) The point is when something is so widespread and touches every faucet of one’s lives where almost no one in any civilized society doesn’t use it for every aspect, you can’t say it’s not a necessity. That’s just living in a bubble.
2) it’s not like a flying car which only has one feature. It’s so impactful and integral.
3) Re no matter how dangerous it is? Sure then build safe rails and protection. Just like a car has safety features. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a necessity just because it’s dangerous.
4) But what about religion ? This is a frum site. Again yes so build safe protection. But religion doesn’t make it not a necessity. It doesn’t change a metzius. (Unless your religion is a cult that brainwashes)
5) no matter how unsafe it is? Yes no matter how unsafe it’s so part of life now that you can’t live without it . It circles back to the same point so add safety features but that doesn’t make it less a necessity. (As a side note the way you make it sound like, anyone who touches it will die in a ruchnyus sense is nonsense. Sure it has risks . But most people are still responsible . It’s not level of some atom bomb. That doesn’t mean that some won’t slip but you make it sound like it will nuke everyone. Now to be clear again for the some that will slip you’ll build guardrails)This all boils down to one flawed logic. Because it has ruchnyas risks, you chose to say it’s not a necessity when the entire world runs on it in every way of our life. From shopping to banking to earning a living, to even learning Torah m, checking in on airlines , research, cars, waze appliances etc. This is just a partial list. It’s so flawed to say it’s not a necessity because of a religious risk. That doesn’t change the metzuis.
To be clear we aren’t debating the need for filters rather for devices . And yes it’s fair to demand that TAG pay for it and stop being so stuck up about it. (I suspect you work for them)
Lastly, please don’t use fancy English . I am not as educated as you. It’s just confusing gotcha words
Its important to remember that while most charedim hold not to vote for WZO, there are other shitas too. Mizrachi has stong roots in our torah as well. In fact many of the early charedim were against zionsim only because its secular and not because the idea of our won country is bad. It gets confuing because part of WZO debate is also that they are secular and not just the Zionist issue. So even if we we hold of zionsim we may not hold of WZO. Nevertheless mizrachi is also frum jews and lets not degarde them. They have sources form our torah and they have mesora form their gedolim too
@v32itas
Our goal should be to spread free filters for all. If the open source or whatever does the job good. Of course TAG and some of the others will enagae ins care tactics. they will tell you, look at the boy in EY who cracked a filter code after the company dared them. We can’t use filters that boys can crack,. Therefore only filters that charge exorbitant prices are good. My answer to that is, if a boy or girl is holding by cracking and outmnarting filters , then they are smart enough to buy an unfiltered device at walmart for $20. or take something broken but still usable for free and download stuff at starbucks. It doesn’t take much to exploit the system. But thats not the intent of filters. The ppint of a filter is that it shouyldn’t be juts a clik where innocent people can slowly slip or quickly slip. It should be a lock. But there will always be accesible keys wone way or another and thats a separate issue. So yes free filters for all will accomplish more than having the best filter as so many more will have that lock at least.@Avram in MD
Again you make a very valid religous point. But at the end of the day, Internet is a necessity. A necessity meaning the entire wrold runs on it. And its a complete game changer in terms of quality of life. No mastter how dangerous internet is, its just so widely conveiennet and used in every asepct of your life that you can’t call it a luxury. its like elctricity and cars even though its may pose more danger. And one can’t say that its dangers require you abstain form using any internet device. That would be telling us to live like the Amish. Its not like the TV that doesn’t enhance your life. (I heard from hatzalah guy who was in a call and needed a patient to sign a permission slip for a life saving event on his i-pad. She said she was mekabel not to touch internet devices and can’t sign. It was a whole to do till the hatzlah memeber sorted out how to proceed. I mean thats just crazy but it illusrtaes the point)@Always_Ask_Questions
Yes thats my point. Internet is essential and a necessity today. Anyone who says its not is living in a bubble. Its so part and parcel of our life. So to then argue that its just a luxury and we don’t need to provide free free filters for a luxury is just so far from reality.