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In 2026 there are so many noises whether from vehichles outside or cell phones left on. Its part of the background already. Let it be and get used to our enviornement. Yes the guys that shishkar the 80 year old who left his cell phone ringer on disturb me and most people more than the cell phone
@nevuah
We agree that there is a medium. And of course the point is each of us tone down just a little bit but within what’s still societal norms. However, my point is, that as the rich push the standard higher and higher, the societal norms slowly move the needle. And then even what we tone down still becomes a mountain bec of how high the norm becomes. Furthermore but similar, most people won’t tone it down and so even if we do because we are nei aliyiah, it doesn’t move the standards. And the higher the rich push the higher we all have to go. There is also simply the fact that yes we do like kovod and get jealous. We are human. And the higher the rich go, the harder your challange becomes on a perosnal level to disregard it. This all leads to one direction. What the rich matters alot more than what I do.
Side note, Perosnally I don’t agree with the fundamental that making a simcha is about me. Rather its about the child., Sometimes, a child needs a nicer band or flowers and some children are Ok with less@nevuah /@user176
A person can’t be socially off and weird. As an extreme example, you shouldn’t make a wedding in shul with shnaps and cake even though that’s all you can afford. And that’s what they did in DP camps. That’s just weird and off. It’s likely that your child will highly resent that. Similarly, a vort can’t just be in your friends making chocolate chips cookies in your tiny dinning room. It’s weird. Now where the line between weird and just lowering your standard is, is very gray . But the point is, as the rich push the standard up that gray line moves naturally just like it did for vorts
Just to reiterate, the issue of pushing up the standard for everyone is only one of many reasons that Rich shouldn’t make lavish weddings . There are 5 more reasons and it’s our business to tell them@nevuah
Fair point and I am ready to move two inches not just one inch. But the problem won’t be solved unless the rich guys stop. Just telling me to move that one inch won’t help. Furthermore, the needle is moving so much, that me moving one inch is still 5 inches more than what used to be because the norms are so high.
Ill repeat that yes we are gald to tone it down but you can’t ruin your childrens lives and you don’t want them to cry to oyu by their simcha if its nebachdik. Its not fair to them. And so yes a little lower but up to a point and when the neddle is so far ahead thats hard. As an example, its now very rude and inconsiderate not to give hostess gifts when a neighbor hosts for you. It would be socially off to send bubbys cholcolate chip cookies as a gift. This is the new norm. This is just one of many.
My main point is, that its the rich guys that need to stop and we need to talk about them. Don”t white wash it by saying just talk about usSadly they basically do sing Yamin when the rich guy walks in. The idea that torah and being lavish don’t mix together, is almost completely lost in yeshivas. And the idea that as ling as we teach people to be torahdil that naturally falls in place is misguided. Furthermore, the yeshivas themelves compete who can have a fancier building. And then when a shul makes a syuim on Makkos in Lublin, touring Europe foe a week in luxury what does that teach? I get it kovod hatroah and we should be proud that we are making a syuim. Its also better than touring the bahams. But lets get real. This is where your idea that torah doesn’t go with being lavish is gone. Yeshivas and rabbonim need to start a movement like they did with the internet to put an end to this
@Always_Ask_Questions
Tell that to aderi torah that boys should be banned from being in boxes and in fact those boxes should be closed an hour before the evenet starts@ashergg
Sadly I don’t think that’s true. Lately its very in style to be torah vegdulah. People today like to be torahdik and “spritual” yet live lavishly. They answer it up saying this is part of being bnei melachim or hashem wants us to live like this. Its no longer true that those who live spirtual are detached from being lavish. That concept is gone. Thats exactly what must be emphasized again. Its fake spirtual that really has the opposite effect but it gets masked into torah vgedula or words like “bal habatish” as if thats a spritual thing.@In my humble opinion, I humbly disagree with your humble opnion. Even the people that can afford it, its wrong. Let the money stay in their pockets vs being loud and splashy. Its a detachment from hashem, brings down the entire level for others that see it etc. I listed the reasons above. Let me repeat what I have always said. There is no such thing as “I have a right” or “I am entitled”. We are jews and everything we do is for hashem,. Even if you give 1M to tzedaka the night of a wedding, you are NOT entitled to spend 1M in your wedding. Very nice you did a nice miztva and you’lll get schar. That’s not a free pass. One has nothing to do with the other. I don’t like this blame game that oh its the people that can’t afford’s fault. Wrong its the people that can afford too. The issue isn’t just spending money on what we can’t afford. Its about simply being luxirous for no reason.
@nevuah, similar to the above. Its not just about the people who can’t afford it. Even if you could afford it, its just nor the right thing to do. Its not the jewish way, and brings everyone down. I can elebaorate. I did that in above commnets. But we have to get this out of our head that oph its only bad for the people that can’t afford it. No being a show off and partying is bad for everyone.
Now to your other point, there is the idea of only what you can afford and there is the idea of yes conforming. A person has to be functional. You can’t be a werido and making a wedding in a shtibel with shnaps and cake bec you can’t afford it. And its wrong to do that to your children. So yes you need to be normal and conforming is indeed a jewish cconcept. To say one needs to be dysfucntional is just wrong too. So now if the society norms is now to give tomau to guests, send hostess packages to all hosting, invite outsiders for dessert on firday night etc, its very hard to sasy don’t do that. The line between conformoity and lavish gets more and more gray when rich dudes go over the top. But the answer isn’t to say don’t conform. And to repeat again, even if you could afford it, its wrong to be lavish and you aren’t entitled
”@nevuah
The start with yourself idea whitewashes the issue very much. Most of us middle class aren’t tyring to make over the top. We are just trying to be gracious and practical. It also doesn’t really set the general tone like the wealthy do. It really doesn’t solve the issue. The issue will still remain that the welathy fancy stuff are against everything judiasm stands forNo blue shirts or gary hats CVS. Only tight pants and the top shirt button open!
@ashergg
Re solutions. There is no magic. But here is the start.
First, in my shul when keddashim got of hand the rav called the next rich guy who was planning on mkaing a simcha (way in advance) and he asked him can you do me a favor just this once. Don’t make it fancy and just make it regular. Once the wealthiest guy made a simple kiddush everyone followed. The rabbonim should be proactive and call the wealthy bal simchos and work with them to tone it down in a pleasant fashion. I wouldn’t suggest taknos becuase that feels like just rules that people hate. But personal encouragement to the people that set examples work alot better from a top down approach. it also then need not be a one size fits all like taknos. Its more about a general tone on a more personal basis.
Second, a stronger emphasis by the rebbaim and leaders of our youth that our goal should be to shun gashmyuis. Just like even touching a smart phone is treif so is general gashmyuis, fancy vacations and trips. The aderi torah event should not allow any bochrim in the boxes. The whole concept of boxes is a bdieved because sadly we need to honor the rich, but its not a place we aspire to be. Boys should be banned from being on that floor. That includes the aderi torah supporters own son let alone his nephews freinds dog owner who tags along. When we grew up the dias with the rich guset of honors was off limits for the bochrim@keith,
Yes I do. A 3 day destination wedding is one example.
The entertainment is not just a little better when you have a 20 piece band with the 3 most famous singers. That’s over the top.
Re nicer homes, in a way that’s even easier. Is the home just practical and modern or is it that you have imported tiles from Italy on the outside ? Do you need a bowling alley in your home? I mean there is a ton of excess that’s not just practical but luxurious.
This idea that if one gives a lot of tzedaka or as much as their own fancy wedding they are entitled is pure nonsense. As a Jew you don’t have rights and aren’t entitled . It’s not your money and using it to be an ostentatious is not ok. They aren’t deriving what they can from a crazy over the top wedding or house. And this idea that we can’t speak out because we can’t judge others is a white wash too. If the vibe is that so many are doing this and it destroys our fabric of being Jewish then you must speak it. I outlined very clearly what’s wrong with being so lavish and I can rewrite it if you like. It’s something that hurts us and them too
The key point remains, this notion that a Jew is entitled is warped. A Jew is never entitled no matter how many mitzvos he does.The answer to this question is simply sadly that the world and charedi judiasm became much more ghetto like and boxed in. They used to be more open minded and less hot headed. The yeshiva world for sure was less yeshvish. Lately It became chasdish and more closed off.
@DovidBT
No its not absurd. Certain things are clear from our torah and judiasm. Because an “orthodox” rabbi says otherwise that doesn’t change what’s clear form the torah. if its a question then you have a point. its not a question. I think anyone with common sense and basic knowledge of judiasm knows, our torah and hashem does not want you to flaunt and live in extreme luxury. This is the fundamental of judiasm and just because someone is a “rabbi” adds very little to me
@Always_Ask_Questions
I think you put that down very eloquently. Purchasing a few homes so that you can be comfortable when vacationing, or as investment is fine. We aren’t the chafetz chaim level. But if those homes have tiles on the outside imported from Italy or in general have extreme ostentatious features thats uncalled for and against what jews stand for. Its not al pi torah. Its actually destroying judiasm today and one of our biggest problems.
@nevuah,
As someone who follows the torah and sees whats emes, of course I have a “right” to tell people what to do. Do we not have a right to tell people to keep shabbos etc? Obviously with sechel and sensitivity but yes. And its not “his money”. Its hashems money.
Now to your main point, You put it down well. But thats just the tip of the iceberg. Its morally corrupt because of so many other reasons too. Firstly its a distraction from serving hashem. the metzias is that its very hard to be the same ehlrich jew when praying at destination wedding or living in exterme fancy homes. Sure I can take a gemara with me and only sit at a corner where its tznuis. But we know that in all likliehood, tznuis is less, troah is less, davening is less etc. Same with vactaions and everything else. Living that lifestyle just distracts and is a contradiction Furthermore,. it puts a certain pressure on our youth and society to be like that. After all , yes its cool and normal people are jealous. So now whats peoples goals in life? The more you splash that more it imprints on others and our children. And so its a bigger picture, although you are correct too.@DovidBT
I can’t talk for your rabbi, but I think one of two things.
Either he meant to say there is nothing wrong with a nicer more gracious lifestyle if you acknowledge its from hashem. Or I hate to say it but its not what most rabbis hold. Extravagance is destructive to society on so many levels form tznuis to social well being. Do you think the chafetz chaim would approve of that? It also drags others into it and brings jealousy. Its not the jewish way
@qwerty613
Well said, And by the way, there is a tzadik that I should call out, the Schrons who are bnillionares and yes they have what they need including an apt in EY, but they are not loud and slashy. They live very simple and don’t do things over the top.
I also left out that we are in golus and its not our place to live like this@Cheski
With all due respect thats a very misguided statement. First of all the idea that” preaching about how others spend $$” is somehow not allowed is wrong. We are jews and live for a higher reason. If its wrong, it my business just like any other averio or just like using unflitered interent etc where its my buisness what you do in your own home bec we are jews.
To the main point, There is a very big difference between being ostentatious and following society norms or even being a little more “bal Habaisth”. We aren’t on the level of chafetz chaim and i think he’d say so too. We need to still live in Olam hazah and we humans who need to enjoy it and feel presentable too.Furthermore, there are rabbonim (albiet mostly chasdish) who encourage being gracious and making a nice simcha because if you get to live nicely you will give more to others vs just living simple. That being said, i confirmed with them (Yes I spoke to them about it) that it doesn’t mean live over the top. There is ostentatious and there is just being bal habatsih and gracious. I know you’ll ask where do you draw the line? yes its a gray area and 5th shulchan aruch is needed. But without pointing to specific examples, we know when its over the top. When you know , you know. And the rich guy knows it too. He knows he isn’t just being more gracious. A person has to be emes and we must call it out and say we disagree as its a terrible machala.
Yes as jews we do have a right and a must to tell people how “to spend their money” or shall I say Hashems money that they are a shilach for. And the reason why we must, I outlined above. Because its my business too
I think I have written something similar in the past but Ill repost since this is a topic so dear to me.
1) The idea that its theri money and they give tzedaka so they are entitled to be ostentatious. A jew is never “entitled”. The money isn’t yours and its form hashem. You won’t take the money with you. When you splash like that, are you doing something that brings you closer to Hashem or not? What do you think the chafertz chaim would say? Do you think its what hashem wants? It makes no difference if you can afford it or if you give 1 zillion to tzedka. Jews are never entitled to be ostentatious. Its a detachment
2) But mind your own business or just don’t go if you don’t like it. Two things on that point.
A) We have children who see it. Why do think their sheifa becomes when they see fancy destinatiion weddings etc. Oh I get it, its all about what we teach in the house and then they won’t be jealous. Like we live in a cave? They don’t talk about in shul and yeshiva? Its not all over the place in your face? Its not cool and glitzy?
B)Lets say I am jealous because its cool and I am a human being subject to a yezter hara. Sure I should work on myself. but you don’t think sticking it in everyone’s face makles that extra hard? We all know when it comes to tznuis in dress that a lady can’t walk around not tznuis and just see men should work on themsleves. people have yetzer haras. There is somehting called tznuis in our every day actions too. That very much includes our broader lifestyle should be tznuis.
3) It definitely raises the bar. But wait if I can’t afford it, I should just not to do it. Yes but it trickles down to rasing the standards for a the avarage simcha too. The classic example I offer is the new fad to invite people for dessert by a shabbos sheva brachos. Now I need to pay for a party planner and sweet table. When we grew up (when ziady was young and lived in flatbush Brooklyn) this wasn’t a style. Now it is. How does it come to be? Because if yenim does a fancy hotel the next guy at least does a fancy local shabbos invitying crowds. And then the next guy does less fancy but still needs to be normal and invite people for dessert because thats whats done. The same is true foe tommeua (its expected now) and hoostess gifts. So we natrually raise the bar. Please don’t come and tell me oh one should just ignore it and do we he can afford. It doesn’t work like that. Noone wants to be a socially off neb. We don’t do vorts in a house with cake and shnap now, and we can’t do that with shabbos sheva brachas or other society norms either.The bottom line is the wealthy are not entitled and have to lower the bar. Make it nice and batumpt but not over the top
@anotheryid
TAG won’t filter a CAT even if you lock every app and don’t use even waze. Its more treif than a smart phone@Always_Ask_Questions
“This is exactly what I was saying – you don’t know how tov unaim is to sit and not rely on those heterim.”
Because everyone relies on heterim. I work at corportate jobs and there is plenty of immoral business practices too. its all the same whether its “college educated” or not.
“Most Drs are not scam.”
I wouldn’t call it a scam. They follow the books. But todays books are all about private equity. Its all about a business. iots indirectly that. There are certain things they can’t do because their owners don’t let
your only kosher solution is to go in the other direction – work honestly with your hands,
I need to live and don’t know how to earn a living with my hands. I am not handy rather I am brainy. This is my job but it ain’t more ehlrlich than a nursing home. Don’t kid yourself
Bottom line for many college isn’t more ehrlich and doesn’t bring in the money more than non college. It depends. I do think its sad that it became so out of style. It has its benefits for some. Too mnay young don’t even think about accounting becuase it became nerdy. But its far from the only way@ujm
But TAG won’t filter every phone to make it only filtered access. for example if you have a CAT phone they won’t filter it because it “feels” like a smart phone. So its not just the filter. It has become this weird ideology that if it feels like something its worse than the thing.Sadly the Satmar reba zya was wrong during the war too. Many zionists saved jews and had the jews ran or cooprated with them perhaps more would have been saved. I know Satmar spreads this myth that Kastner was shlecht and the frum ones weren’t to blame. Leaving aside how the reba was saved, Katstners goals were always to save all Hungarian jews till they couldn’t. It was the frum rrosh Hkhal of Budapest that lied and fooled his people telling them to cooperate with Nazis.. The reba then went on to bully anyone who was pro zionist. Henceforth, the holy Kluasneberger suffered his whole life from der feter Lavon and forced bobov to remain quiet about zionsim. he was a holy jew but was very strong on others who disputed him. Henceforth, people were afraid to respond to his sefer al hgeulah val atemurah or they’d be ois kaplitch macher. (I know someone who refuted it and had all his sefarim burned)
Don’t forget the many holy jews who celeberated Yom hatzmut. All the Rizyna rebas were open zionsits some even mizrachi. (The shtefenst who was the ribntzer and skulener rebas, rebbe had a picture of Herzel and was an outward Zionist) Punvitch still raises their flags and the first year the Mir had one too. Rabbi Herzel the cheif rabbi, went on dangerous missions to save jewish children in monasteries after the war. he used toc ry for jewish neshomas. He also did so much during the war.
Eevn zionsits in the past weren’t straight bad .Your comment re Israel today is certainly spot on.
@Always_Ask_Questions,
I come from a different cut. i don’t think its such a sin to hire illegal or underage workers. (I know dina dmlachusa. There are heterim.. So sorry morally I don’t buy into that being bad.)
All Ill say the game of my business which can’t be in a small group but considered the most squarish profession is still to kind of chase after the big bucks even at the expense of risking customer money and losing your pants. In my mind that more immoral then heping a 16 year old illegal who is poor and looking for a few bucks (assuming you treat him good)
Even Dr’s are a scam already. They are all owned by PE and whether they like it or not, their services need to accommodate profits vs care. They are well intended but its the name of the game today and only way to survive. So highly educated field but sadly not 100% honest either (Not the dr’s fault as thats what the game is, But its sad)
Again nursing homes are just as ehlich as finance. no need for college necessarily and it really depends on your tachunas hanefesh. Its not all just dishonest. this incldues the billers, and those that service etc..@Always_Ask_Questions, I am not convinced that the companies i work for in fancy corp america are so moral either. There is a ton of financial shtick, all legal but you just know it ain’t in the spirt of the law, the way they offshore and invest in PE. All the twists in messgaing before earniings call. I won’t say what filed I am in, but years ago it started as a very honest shared business. Now they have trillions (yes with a T) in assets and that has changed morally. Same as the nusring homes owners. And many here are more honest than you think. Like i said, those outside the charedi worldf (like I envison you) can’t fathom how much commerce there is now ingrown and alot is honest just like a bank or any other financial institution is
@Always_Ask_Questions
I have friends who are admins. Its a flat salary not dependent on sales.
You can’t do thinks that are weird and outcasts as society. Thats not done in charedi ciricles. We aren’t weirdosI didn’t see the whole post. In general for most of the letters and asifas about shitels, only those who are already holding there listen or attend. Everyone else ignores that anyhow. Its mostly a waste. The one exception is the small sliver of the population who isn’t as charedi but very temimusdik like certain sefradic communties.
Like I said , I disagree and think camp is a necessity as part of a child’s chinuch and well being , aside for the need of structure .
Most nursing home administrators are just doing their job and not busy with the chachmas you mention . That’s just one of many. I don’t see it less honest than a lawyer.
Overall, the point remains that the degree won’t help schools stay open. The real cost per child is roughly $12k . That’s $60k for 5 kids. If your take home pay is $120k after taxes, in corporate the math doesn’t add up. And so whether you have a degree or not the schools are subject to donors. Sadly, the schools such as this one that don’t have wealthy parents are stuckFunny that I agree with @UJM, even though I am pro zionist.
On the other hand, i think in general free speech is dangerous. I don’t go for the american holy grail about free speech. i think it can rile people up to attack. The founding fathers never envisioned social media., They surely ain’t prophets. It is not like our holy torah that can’t be changed. i don’t like free speech. Maybe a Europe style free speech where hate speech is more banned is appropriate. The american style is dangerous both from the right and left@Always_Ask_Questions
Sorry but its the way I was raised to. Camp is and always was essential for a childs well being.
Fair point re the 401K.
Nevertheless, my overall point, leaving out camp and weddings. 200K isn’t enough for a normal jewish family unless one also moves to a more affordable small jewish town.
And if i wanted the life where I cut corners, skip camp and leave like a complete simpleton, I would have stayed in kollel and on programs which is totally honest if I am student earning very little. But I chose a “career” for a better life. And its a struggle.
My point remains that working the corp life isn’t as rosy and reliable as you think. You may or may not do better in a frum field like nursing homes. There is no right or wrong. But one thing Ill just say, the myth that our parents had that college degree jobs bring comfortable and reliable parnasa is not necessarily true. its a very old fashioned way of thinking. And either way the Bnos Penina problem where i as a parent can’t pay full tution for 6 kids is very real. With 200K you can’t pay the true full cost of 72K (12 K per child)@Always_Ask_Questions,
I don’t know which planet you live on but for my children camp is a necessity. Yes I have had ones that went and one that didn’t. I Definitely love that I saved much needed money but it wasn’t healthy for mu daughter who was left without structure plus the maturity and experience. Sorry but its a necessity. Many “kiruv” camps don’t hire 8-9th graders.I am not referring to the “Underemployed”. i am referring to the “employed” with a college degree earning 200K.
Same point re weddings. Sure I can borrow from my 401k but then what do I have when old? I could borrow from gemachs too.
These aren’t optional spendings.
Where do you get that a college educated lifestyle has “more time ” to learn? I don’t. I don’t even have sundays. Yes i am off from work but I have many work related tasks that I need to complete sunday. Same for accountants especially now in April. The non college educated have just as many opportunties. They often even have office sponsored Yarchai kallahs, and shuirim at the office. I don’t see the “time” with family better. To the contrary if you work in the city and live in Lakewood you won’t have much time in your college educated job.
Again I think you don’t realize how advanced we have become. the place is booming with high paying respectable honest non college jobs. Prime example is a nursing home adminstrator, who after a few years becomes a regional director earning 250K plus buying into the home a little.
@Always_Ask_Questions
i disagree. There is a fine line between showing off and just “being normal”. For example, getting rid of a vort, it’s just not what’s done and you stick out like a sore thumb. There are certain basic standards. That’s not called showing off. No one is saying to make a lavish full out vort.But the idea of any vort started with some wealthy folks 40 years ago . Today you are kind of not the norm if you skip that. It’s not about showing off@Always_Ask_Questions
200K enough? You are kidding. We Kya have 6 at least, chat gpt doesn’t know about camps, or that a mini van costs 600 a month now, or that a frum girt needs a unifrom. I spend a nice few thousand just to start the shcool year between uniforms , sweaters, tznuis dresses, shoes etc. I am not even talking about a jewish wedding or the cost of seminary. No 200K is not enough and likley 250 is close too. Sure if the man earns 200 and the woman earns 75 we are OK. But its very tight, it takes 10 years to get there. And in corporate 200K take home pay is 120K. Suspending 401K is foolish. The compnay contributes if you contribute. yes you are forced to put in say 6% but why would you lose the 5% match they give? Thats alot of money to just give up@Always_Ask_Questions,
” BUT a bigger issue is non-rich people cumulatively trying to play it up in front of each other. And, I suspect, dependency is an issue here”
There is alot to untangle here.
First overall I beg to differ. We tend to have this mindset that if you are rich, you are “entitled”. Its only the the non wealthy ones who are faking it who are the issue. Thats fundamentally wrong. Its the rich who could afford it that need to stop. Its up to them to put a full stop, Why? Because its the opposite of judiasm and why we are here on this world. That comes first. Now second we can disucuss how it affects the non rich.
Re the non rich, firstly its affects the youth who are taught its cool to chase after gasmyuis and I can be rich plus torahdik too
Now what about others “playing it up”? I think thats very nuanced. Overall there aren’t many that play it up just to show they are rich too. I think that exists but its blown out of proportion. The deeper issue is that certain standards become the norm. So for example, a sweet table at a Shabbos Sheva brochos for when people come for benching to wish a mazal tov. That used to not exist. Its not done now becuase we need to show off and be like the rich guy. Its just the style now that I am a “neb” and it looks cheap if I don’t have it. The same could perhaps be said about a vort vs just mkaing a lachaim. The same is true about hostess gifts by a simchah. Its not to showoff, its just ingrained that this is what we do. And so here is the key point, the more the rich do things the higher it brings up a standard for everyone else. Its very hard not to spend the money when its the social norm. To your last point, I do not think dependcny is an issue. Thats even more rare.There are few misconceptions here and Ill address that separately. But first you need to remember, that we are travelers int his world as the chafetz chaiam lived and said. We don’t take the money with us. Its not our money and we jus messengers from hashem. Furthermore, luxuries and gashmyuis is the opposite of Hashem. Its a distraction that leads to all kind of averios. Pursuing those things is fundamentally against torah Judaism and what we stand for. It doesn’t bring you closer to hashem. Now to the specfic misconceptions.
1) If they give alot of tzedaka they are “entitled”. Wrong we are Jewish and nobody is entitled. Is this what brings us closer to hashem or not? Giving tzedaka or being on aderi torah is not a free hail pass. Everything you do on this world has to be to get closer to hashem.
2) why is it my business? Well firstly because I am jewish. Just like it bothers me when someone is mechalal shaboos and I do what I can to bring them closer, it bothers me when i see this kind of “Hollelus” and corrupt judiasm. Secondly, I have children. If all they hear about in school is the fancy wedding etc.. oh and that you can be torahdik too then what’s their gaols in life. And please don’t tell me oh its all about what you teach in the house. True to a certain extent, but obviusly kids attend school and play with friends. i don’t live in a cave. And what they hock about impacts too
3) But we have a bunch of stories where chasidisha rebas encouraged being gracious with money and living nicely as it encourges people to be “breit: with tzedaka too, Yes and I spoke to my chasdisha rav about this (I also spoke to a famous chasdisha rav in Baltimore about this) There are two things that people confuse. A) living comfortably, and graciously, having a nicely decorated home, dressing nicely, maybe having more conveniences etc B) Living ostentatious, huge pool side partys or lavish weddings, vaactaions that are out of this world, homes that are a block long with amillion ro0oms including a home theater and bowling alley etc. When all these chasdisha rebas so to spend money, they mean in the gracious comfortable way. They never ever meant to pursue luxuries and go all out getting attached to gshmuis. Obvouilsy there is a gray area between A &B. Where you draw the line requires sechel. but everyone knows when you are extremely overlineTo sum it up, no you are not entitled and its against judaism to pursue luxuries. This craz needs to come to a full stop. Its eroding klal yisorel more than AI is, And our gedolim should get some guts and stand up and say no.
@Always_Ask_Questions,
Sorry I have been out of the loop a it. But to just to cricle back to your comment requiring data about employment in frum circles. Its not an onus on me to show numbers. That’s kind of an unfair ask when you know its both a new emerging trend and too small to provide data. I suspect you have never been to lakewood. But come and see the jewish commerce. Its full of people without college educations earning decent honest livings. Satmar has a similar enviornement. Its well known and seeing is believing. I’d venture to say you don’t have much family or freinds that work in this kind of enviornemnt. To you this seems odd and strange. To anyone outside they’d be like what without college you can earn an honest decent living? I live in both ciricles. I work in a secular enviornement (the only jew in my company of 5K employees). But I also see the other side. You don’t need numbers and I don’t need to show you. Go look for yourself. Its out in the open.Re layoffs, sure I have been laid off too. My point remains that at most corporations with college jobs, you are just a number. They don’t think twoice before they lay you off and its totally normal At one company I worked for they had layoffs every 6 months. I knew the week when it happens already. They also still kept on hiring new. They just like a revolving door. I even had a coworker who was chopped, a year later I see he IM me and says Hi. I am like what are you doing here? He tells me he waited 12 months after getting laid off (got I think like 40 weeks sevarance) and then was able to come back. An employee is a number in corporate and driven by their stock price. On the other hand most frum places (most not at all) relaize its your paranasa and unless there is a compelling reason they don’t just go and chop off employees. So job security is better by the frum “non educated”
That being said, I will say that there are some inhernet systeamic risks that frum can’t control. For exmaple if you are a real estate broker or mortgage broker/ underwriter and its 2007 many frum businesses just feel apart. It just dried up and there was nothing there. Meanwhile while accountants had a slow down and some got hurt, overall there was still basic need for some at least. So yes I agree there is a larger buuble risk. But in normal times it works.“there is another way out of this vicious circle – become self-sufficient financially by working” Ill just say once again that for a family of 5-6, one can’t be self sufficent with an accounting , computer, actuary or whatever degree they hold via working for corporater. I am one of those who earn a respectable salary but without the chesed of others I still wouldn’t be able to live. In order to be totally self sufficent one needs to earn at least 250K nowadays. Corp america doesn’t pay that unless you are a VP or SVP
@Yaakov Yosef A
First its a ton of historians across different spectrums. Second if you reseach you’ll see alot of the information is from first hand testimony. All of a sudden the whole world is lying and only satmar who is known to be baised is saying the truth? Believe what you want but the point is that you come with this pre notion that zioniists must be evil because you were told lies ever since we were kids@Yaakov Yosef A
Now just to cut you a bit of slack, Ill say this, Of course many Zionists believed that if they can only save 500 jews, save zionists. But,
1) Their goal always was to save as many jews as possible, frum or not frum zionsits or not zionists. (Yes if its limited then some said save zionsits)
2) Only some held that way not all.
3) That was more in 1938 and not 1944. By then everyone held save all jews.
Yes I am not here to defend and say all zionists are good people. There was a minoirty and only a minority killed those that got in their way. But these wacky ideas that they wanted many jews dead so they can promote themselves. or that the killers were a majorty is blaloney.Bottom line, yes you don’t want to debate this. the truth hurts. if you learn that the zionists did MORE to save jews than many frum jews it would debunk your whole premise of this forum. (Of course i don’t put R michel Ber or Mrs strenbauch on the same pedistal as Katsner. But compared to many other “rosh kauhls” he was a saint)
@Yaakov Yosef A
I meant to say “there” is overwhelming proof and not this is. Do your research and don’t believe satmar lies. Katsner at all meetings said he wants to save all jews. Till he realized he can’t save all jews in May of 44 that was his goal stated over and over again. This is all well documented,. And this was what the whole underground wanted.Now since you want sources here goes. Stop it with the lies that zionists art evil. of course you don’t want to debatte this. Because you want to believe the kool aid you drink as premise for this forum. I am here to tell you it all lies. research all the attached below. its overhwlmeing
Historians who argue Zionist rescuers tried to save Jews broadly:
Yehuda Bauer � Negotiations and rescue efforts aimed to save as many Jews as possible.
Randolph L. Braham � Documents the Rescue Committee�s efforts to help Hungarian Jews generally.
Dina Porat � Zionist leadership tried to rescue Jews but had very limited power.
Tuvia Friling � Shows Zionist leaders pursued multiple rescue attempts.
Shlomo Aronson / Shabtai Teveth � Argue claims that they only cared about Zionists are exaggerated.\The Budapest Aid and Rescue Committee (Va�adat Ezrah Vehatzalah) left records showing they tried to: negotiate with the Nazis to stop deportations of Hungarian Jews, raise money for plans like the �Europe Plan� to save large numbers of Jews, smuggle Jewish refugees into Hungary
Members of the committee negotiated with Nazis for plans involving hundreds of thousands or even a million Jews (such as the �blood for trucks� proposal).
These negotiations are documented in:
Nazi records-German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) &Nuremberg trial records
testimonies after the war
diplomatic archivesAnother major archive. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
@Yaakov Yosef A
Alot of what you say is a myth. You have no proof other than what we charedim were feed as little kids. Zionist are evil bla bla. Yes there are bad players. Yes Zionism was about Israel and not saving jews. But they were jews to and once they saw the gravity they also wanted to save jews like evryone else. This is the overwhelming proof. Please don’t just rinse and repeat what Ben hecht and other baised people say. Search for the truth.Why do i bring this up as a thread here? Here is the key point. the same way many peddle lies and wacky conspiracy theories about zionsim that are all not true. Its that same altitude as it pertains to iran. Yeah zionists are liars and just out for themselves. Us frum oh we are the noble honest ones. When i see what you all say about the holocuast, i see you are all just drinkjing propaganda kool-aid. its not emes