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@philosopher
I didn’t read every comment. But i do think you are a bit proposing conspiracy theories and mixing it up with just plain very poor personality traits.Lets start with Oct 7, sorry for being sharp but anyone who believes that Bibi intentionally knew about the attack and just ignored it for self gain (even if eh didn’t anticipate the extent) is just a full quack conspiracy theorist. I don’t think I need to provide rationale as to why a leader even a poor one and a “secular zionist” would never intentionally let other jews die. Its just insane.
Now here is the thing. Is Bibi guilty of ignoring warning signs? yes Is he guilty of ill prepping the army to respond both immediately and ground invasion? yes. And he was in charge for 25+ years (with a few small breaks). The buck stops at him. I will say that hamas played a good deception game. But still, he should have been at his game. So he is guilty of being careless. That’s probably because he is a bal gava and haughty. He thinks he is always the smartest and he is indeed wise but nobody is that wise. Thats not the same thing as saying he intentionally let it happen. Bibi is not inherently evil.
Now re Iran. There is much more data. There were inspectors there at the site. Israel even raided it once. To say nothing was going on like in Iraq, is again just wacky naive and ignoring the facts. It is true though that there is no proof that they were about to make the final pitch or just stop at kind of that 80% mark. In all likelihood they wanted to reach a point where its not fully there but its at a place where completing it isn’t that difficult all while saying its for their own energy needs. This is pretty clear. So where they on the “verge of completion”? And what does it mean that its completed. Does that mean luanch ready or just like the technology is there but its still another whole path to launch it. So maybe thats enough to say, now wasn’t the time yet maybe not. Thats debatable. But again lets not make it as if there was nothing there. That’s just denying the facts.
Perosnally I was more disturbed at Iran sponsoring Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis vs the nukes. That was clear. They deserved to go for that. And so Bibi was right anyhow.
Re your upbringing, I think depsite your open mind, satmar ideology still crept in (Not saying its extrreme NK but it has sprinkles of that). This is the same reba/ chasidus, who refsued to cooperate with the zionists during the war when jews could have been saved. The same people who say Kastener was evil and Ben hecht book is all true. The real truth is, while Kastner was no saint, he risked more to save jews than the frum rosh hakohul from Budapest who was complict in sending jews to their slaughter and lying to them. Satmar makes up facts. (They even cover up who saved the reba on 21 kislev)
@Always_Ask_Questions
Participant
Re college, I don’t believe that attending an in person college makes someone wiser and more prepared in the working world. Definitely not Touro (not knocking them but I attended that). I could attest to that for a fact. I take many exams for my field and college did nothing for me. It was also a complete waste in term s of tech skills. Its just very abstract and removed from reality. i found it mostly a waste of time to be honest. I don’t see the value in college education. its highly overrrated. I compare myself to my colleges and don’t see their college as adding value either.The fact that many have this wacky anti vax or other odd theories, is more culture than college. Sadly the culture is more and more cult like. My hungarain grandparents with no college education wasn’t as weird.
The pofrssionals you mention most cannot parse thinsg to work part time. Even pirvate accountants, you just have to have your doors open for all. The world doesn’t work that way unless you are highly skilled and sought after you can’t only take 3 clients . Its just not craved that way. You are either full fledge or not credible
@Always_Ask_Questions,
Re job security for college educated:Morgan Stanley is laying off roughly 2,500 employees as job cuts continue this year in the financial sector. Like other firms, Morgan Stanley aggressively hired during the pandemic, going from 60,000 employees in 2019 to 82,000 employees by year end 2022. The company had 83,000 employees at the end of 2025.
Tens of thousands of job cuts have already been made just two months into the new year, many of them white dollar. The financial sector has not been immune.
Citigroup and Blackrock have reportedly trimmed back their headcounts, and last week, financial technology company Block,
I just want to add for those reading this and especially in the Lakewood area. Accounting use to mean working for the big 4 in downtown till 1 AM during tax season when you don’t see your family from shabbos to shabbos. That has somewhat changed.
1) Now even the big 4 have a hybrid remote apporach. Maybe the first year or two you have to come in. But once you prove yourself, you can come in 2-3 times a week only.. You’ll still need to put in those long billable hours but alot more can be done remotely.
2) There are much more frum options out there as our homegrown economy has expanded BH. So fewer have to work for the big 4.
3) The frum jobs used to be mostly in the city too. Now most are in Lakewood with beautful buildings long ave of the americasRe the yeshiva system, to my point lets take an accontant. They only need 18 maybe 20 months of college via FDU at PCS. But they need 4 years of yeshiva credits (maybe its 3). I dont see the gain mathametcilly in making them sit in college for 4 years at Touro or Brooklyn college. why not learn full time? Similarly law school grads. I know BMG guys who went to Harvard law. Aron kotler is buddies with Noah Feldman and gets in 2-3 per semester. No Bachelors others than BMG . The only condition is that you need to obtain at least a 177 on the LSAT (I may off be one digit but something like that) The lawyers less smart attend Rutgers but its gets done via BMG. Again why sit in college. I see no point in college other than the parnsa it brings. Otherwise college isa cesspool with anti israel and kefirra . Its mostly nonsense. I Learned much more on my job and slef teaching, (including self trained computers) vs college.
Now lets say you attend college for 4 years after HS (maybe you lean a year first so its 5 years). Now you are 22 and single. Should they go to work before they need to? What about the non tznuis aspect for youngsters? I work in corporate. Its not the boggy monster people say about it. But at the same time the youngsters do hang out together and have a life. This isn’t 100 years ago when you went to work on your farm or printing press.
Post Covid, sure there was a hiring boom not reflective of the silicon valley bubble thats not busting quickly
Re AI, it will takeaway alot of entry level jobs. the savvy ones will now be the ones setting up the AI commands for those their senior levels. They may have to be able to mix coding (python and R) with AI skills. Thats the way forward. Its for sure a huge disruptor particularly on the entry level.This all circles back to the idea that after this whole back and forth, the idea of college degrees for frum jews is questionable if there is a benefit. We definitely don’t believe there is a need for education purposes. There is only a need for parnasa. Now this is where I will agree with you a bit and say that our minds should be more open to college. I mean to say that its really person independent. Some wll make great accoutants. It saddens me a bit that when i started, it was “with it’ to become accontants via FDU. . Now thats less “in”. Its still full but people aren’t banging down the door like they used tyo. I think its a great degree even if you work for frum people. But at the end of the day, many jobs don’t need a degree and we have our won homegrown economy. And I don’t think college wholistically will solve our affordbility issues or that so many of charedim would do so much better. its marginal and helpful some of the time.
Always_Ask_Questions
Please name a field thats part time and earns a decent salary even non college educated. That doesn’t exist. You have fields where hours are flexible here and there . That enables these richies to run off to R Shayla for a week, then yrachai kallah for a week. But I don’t know too many that allow that kind of split other than a heimisha store owner who can open at 11 (maybe he selles fleiwhig takeout)
I do agree that I think it would be crazy to reject clients so you only open twice a week. Your solution is great. But I’d add, although noone can predict , IYH you will live till 120. The solution I think is to juice up your 401K. Then at 59.5 retrire and sit and learn all day. There are people I know that did this. I know PS teachers that had juicy pensions and became big talmedi cahchimim via that.
@Always_Ask_Questions
when i say\ the data re college grads is not or rather less releavnt for frum jews, I mean re oppurtunties. For a non jew without a degree where is he working? Who hires someone without a degree in the secular world? But in our own homegrown economy, mnay get hired with well paying jobs in non colllege degree fields too. Nursing home admins are a great example but thats only one of many. So the study about the salary gap college vs non college grads is less applicable for frum jews. And many of those eran just as much as people in my feild which is highly regarded. Whats more, in my feild there is a ceiling. So maybe after 7-8 years if real savvy you become a director. For AVP or more you need to be real savvy, slick and play the corp game. Even then the job security is fragile. They cut senior positions much quicker than the mid level postion who does the heavy lifiting. And so you cap out at say 200-250 after bonus with all on the books. Contrast that to a regional director at a nursing home, making 250K plus free car leases and other business expeneses which is a huge perk that brings the value way above 300K.Fair point re the fact that as a business owner its hard to even survive without being gray bec many competitors are that. I concede on that one. But not everyone is a business owner and I think since it still exists in every field, college or not, that reasoning isn’t compelling in my mind. (as a side note, i know wealthy college educated who are pretty big ganavim too and sat or almost sat in jail)
@Always_Ask_Questions
Full Tuition means what it really cost per child without the need to fundraise. There are usally 3 sometimes 4 prices. The above and beyond price (i.e 15K) the cost to fully cover your child (i,e 12K) , the reduced price (i.e 10K) and then a scholarship price. I can only afford the scholarshop price albeit I don’t give the lowest on that list.“Look up unemployment rates and salaries That data isn’t relevant for frum jews where there is both an in community organic growth, we take more risks and affordblity is different.
Re Legal. No I define legal as a loophole where you look at it as shady morally but its completely legal based on the law.
Re the yetzer hara to “cheat” bec you don’t have a career. I hate to say this but the cost of living is so high, that I have the same yetzer hara and I have a college educated career. I don’t think it has to do with the nature of your job. It may be cultural as I have a hunch you are from a more modern orthodox background. That is somehting I respect about the MO community where this is more of a focus. But I don’t buy that its dependent upon the type of career path chosen.
On kollel, yes sadly the way its structured you can’t really work 5 hours a day and learn the rest. Although with remote work and some “lakewood” jobs thats doable., Most jobs are 9-5 (college or not college educated). Perosnally, I view my 401K as a savings account where I hope to retire young so I can sit and learn. Rather less luxury now but put away for then. Its not exactly the same as learning today but its the most sensible within our system where there is a tax benefit and often a company match. I don’t think the proper thing is, to have 21 year o0lds go to work so that they establish their career before hand. Sure you’ll probably dig up some gemaras, but its not applicable for today. Most boys unless they can’t learn need to be in yeshiva till they need a paransa. That’s more more important than establishing a career. Despite what it gives up. b yes ponting to the rabam and comparing it to today isn’t relevant. I know 100 years ago this wasn’t done but its different times,. I don’t have the correct words how to phrase it but it just sin’t the right approach for today.
Re your data, about the success of college, again that was Pre AI and post covid where there was a sicllon valley tech bubble that has now popped. It also less relevant to the frum community
@Always_Ask_Questions
” your ability to do a job and earing potential is lower than someone from a good college”But thats factually not true. I know a ton of accountants who did just that and landed at the big 4, which is the most prestigious firms. So it is equal to those who attended regular colleges. T even know a few BMG Harvard law grads. And so in our community there isn’t a strong correlation between the two, albeit the correlation is not at 0%.
(As a side note, with AI today, proper grammar skills or well polished presentations are much easier to obtain without schooling)
The real issue is that even those highly college educated just don’t pay enough. The Jewish jobs pay better. Your accountant may not approve of that kind of pay, but mine does and so do many others. You may see it as morally wrong but its completely legal.
Re the percent of college gards rising, yes that may play a role in why there are fewer entry level jobs but its not the key reason. As per chat GPT below are the key factors. But before I list them let me say, it circles back to the point I am making. There is a larger barrier than ever to obtain entry level jobs in the secular world overall. Thats yet another reason why college is a bit outdated. It doesn’t offer the assurances and security that it used to. By the way there are alot more layoffs than years ago too. Throw that in the mix. Frum jobs offer much more job security. Now back to my notes from Chat Gpt.
Yes — rising bachelor’s and STEM attainment increases competition somewhat.
But the recent difficulty in entry-level hiring is more likely driven by:
Economic tightening
Sector-specific slowdowns (especially tech)
Employer risk aversion
Skill mismatchRe Kollel, just to clarify, the idea that one should just get a degree so they have a “defined profession” and then they can sit and learn till they work is not realistic and misses the boat too. I work in corporate and have interviewed entry level applicants. If they got a degree 5-10 years ago and first now are applying for a job, its a huge question mark. Where were you till now especially if you are so passionate about your career? Its usually a red xx before you start. Companies hire and recruit seniors in college. Furthermore, life changes and interest changes. Many of my friends got their accounting degrees at young ages and never used it because by the time they went to work at 28 or 30, life and interests changed. Disclaimer, you are perhaps arguing that one should get a degree and go to work at 21. I think thats very flawed. One should not be working till they actually need the money especially at a young age when they need to still grow and lay a torah fundation. You are also advocating like a complete society reset that will never happen. This doesn’t mean that your wife works like a slave and many go to work before that.
All in all, the point remains that given the torah system we live in, going to college is a minor benefit for many. It isn’t as valuable as it used to be. It also won’t help us pay full tution. As a college grad in a very prestigious profession, I can attest that I can’t afford full tuition
The one issue with the Lakewood concept which I agree with you on is the following. My feeling is that we are in a bubble. i can’t tell you if its 1yr, 5yrs, 10uyrs or 20yrs. (Hopefully its 20 and then its less of an issue). Many of the high end professions in our eco system are based off leverage. Real estate already popped but not fully. Nursing homes, mental health facilities etc.. all aren’t just staying afloat via filling beds. There is alot of churning , borrowing, leasing the land underneath etc. If the banks stop lending we are in big trouble. The other big industry is the govt stuff like ABA therapy etc. Say the govt cracks down on that and/or mental health funding etc. again we are in trouble. Its true that the whole economy would be in trouble too. You need fewer lawyers and accountants in 2008. But there is always a base thats fundamentally needed In this case, the whole thing could topple and it is fragile
@RightJew
You get a bachleors from BMG so no you don’t need 4 years of college like Touro. Thats the truth. You need to take a few pre reqs which they do in 3 months and then the degree. So maybe its 21 months, I knows 10’s of people who did it this way. This is the facts.“In fact many Hareidi businesses are based on a business model of employing mostly low paid, low skill workers.”
Again I invite you to drive down Ave of the Americas in Lakewood and see for yourself. Tons of decent paying jobs for men. Now mathematically it may be less then I earn. I get a nice 401K etc. But they get the car under the business, tuition paid for by the business and other nice perks. On a anet basis they do better” college is a proven way to get good pay & benefits at minimal risk for a large swath of middle class. : That’s been true in the past but likley no longer the case. I work at a college educated job. It hasn’t kept up with inflation. What worked in the past is less true now. I say “less true” because obviously you can’t piant a broad brush. But between student debt and the high cost of living for jews, with the low pay in corporate, it makes less and less sense (Pun intended). On top of all that, thanks to AI,, outsourcing etc entry level jobs are scarce in corporate. Its just not what it used to be. So many college educated people are stuck working as Uber drivers. If you look at the blogs on reddit etc you’ll see the chatter. The dream of a college education landing a job is just not so strong anymore.
There is also the kollel affect. That means assuming you also don’t want to revert back to 50 years ago where one attends college and works at 21/22, the pay never starts high enough compared to costs. Topping that off, is that there are so many in house opportunities within our community where one can start off with a nice paransa, So when you combine all that it makes very little sense for a BMG guy to go to college. Re the gemara in kiddushin, yes teaching someone a trade is not necessarily college.
Re the merits of Touro, this is a distraction but honestly, I see very little value aside for the here and there. FDU accounting gets you to the same place. Any lack of reading skills, you’ll learn on the job. You know have char GPT to help you learn how to compose proper emails and memos. (I didn’t use it for this comment, henceforth tons of grammar and spelling errors. But I use it daily) And so that skill is not needed as much to succeed anymore.
Ill end off with your beginning because that’s the key. ” is it worth going to college? can we pay tuition?” I went to college and have a prestigious job. I cannot afford the true cost of tuition. Thankfully my children’s schools have a wealthy donor base. I wish i could give more
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I know that as of today this has been worked out and Bh the school reopened. But here is whats’ lacking form the conversation, Bnos penina served a purpose that most schools didn’t. Its there to accept almost all parents who just don’t have the protecttzia and connections to get into other schools. Its rat race to get into school and this offered an option to good parents who just don’t have that. The problem then arises, that The school becomes not the most fashionable school. If there isn’t competition to get in and maybe some parents are less shtultzy then the guys with money don’t send there. Now here is the thing. Most schools in Lakewood, rely on fundraising and donations to survive. They can’t do it just on tution. So how does the rich guy give money to? Where their children go and where its the “in place” to be honored by the dinner. Sadly the world works on kovod. So i don’t believe that parents pay less or don’t pay here compared to other schools. They just don;t have rich supporters.
Whats really needed, get together the rich guys have them fund the schools in town that aren’t out there for the rich. The ones that are inclusive and aren’t as hard to get in. of course if the school is dysfunctional they may feel like why give. But if its a fine school and money is the issue the askanim have a responsiblity to davka fund these schools first. They are the ones that deserve it
@RightJew
Lakewood has PCS courses which is better than Touro. In 18 months one can get themselves an accounting degree and many have gotten jobs in the big 4. That takes 4 years at least in Touro bec of the 150 credits. Aron Kotler also has a connection with Noah Feldman form Harvard Law. He quietly takes 2 lakewood guys every semester. Touro is kind of outdated and just not relevant. By the way, I attended Touro form lakewood so I know.In general, you also have to know if college educated jobs are the way to make a living today. Again Ill say I work in a highly regarded field. The pay hasn’t caught up with inflation especially jewish inflation even though companies have made record profits. There is also the fact that within our community there is an ingrown economic stratosphere where someone with talent may do better. This didn’t exist 30 years ago as much. Its debatable if that’s the path to go in todays society.
@flamingOTD
Once again Ill keep it simple. The Israeli govt does not do any systematic genocide. Thats completely false. I refuse to debate history or the old Nakba arguments. Not because I don’t think its flawed but because I want to focus on the present, last 25-50 yearsIn the present moment, Israel does not seek to kill or hurt any Palestianin other than terrorists who are out to kill or hurt us. If every one of them put down their guns today and said we are finished, no more Hamas , no more killing, we completely surrender any resistance, then not a single palestinain would get killed. All Palestinains who act peaceful are not targeted. Contrast that to Israel’s who were helping palestianins and pro peace on Oct 7 whop were still targeted and killed. So why were so mnay killed in Gaza? Because its a tough war when Hamas hides among the population or in its tunnels. Israel isn’t evil and is trying to do its best not to kill Palestinians.
Does that mean Palestianins don’t suffer? Ill be the first one to say yes they are suffering. Yes they are hungry. But why are they suffering? Not because of israel but because of Hamas. Many are part of a cult called Hamas. They have a stronghold over their people and want them to suffer. They want hunger and pain so they gain sympathy. They take away baby formula and bully their people to join the fight if you want your baby to live. Its one large Johnstown where its people drink the kool-aid
@flamingOTD
I fail to see your point and your example is a poor one.First of all and most importantly, Israel doesn’t seek to kill Palestinians. Its not out there for Muslim blood. Leaving my next point aside, yes during a war accidents occur especially when its a war where the enmey is embedded within the population. Thats not a chilul hashem when its survival,
Second, chances are their father was a terrorist or collaborater. I don’t buy that he as innocently eating breakfast. They play a good game at that. Where was he the night before?
Third, almost all celebrated Oct 7 and children as young as 7 participated while many others knowingly held hosatges. I just don’t buy the innocence.
But again the key point is that Israel never intentionally kills innocent people. Your whole notion that
” I find them also deeply problematic in their ideologies. ” as if its just an ideology vs outright a cult of terror is extremely flawed. I pray that all muslims perish but not from my hand but g-ds wrath. as we pray that g-d take revenge on our enemies.@UJM, You propose a non sensical solution, the second the arabs gave any power even if not an “arab state” just a religon neutral state they will kill us. Stop being so naive in thinking Oct 7 only happened to zionists. They would have had no issues cvs rapping your family or chopping your head off cvs. Mnay who they kidnapped where people who advocated for peace and giving them more.. Now do you want to debate if their anger is bec of zionism and had the state never have been founded it wouldn;t have happened? We can debate that history. (Perosnally I don’t think thats honest and its just amde upn fake news that kanaoim use). The main point is lets say you are right that its all the zionist fault. Its too late to move that clock back, Once the lion and mad men are out of the cage they won’t stop even if we hand them from the river to the sea.
To your theoretical but practically silly question of lets say it was all one land and they agreed to peace would we be OK to that? Again that depends will all us jews have a right to move there as a homeland even if its not under our government? Or would immigration be limited? Would we have the same freedoms?
Again its all theortical bec only a complete dummy would think that we are safe now once the arabs are wild? So right now we need our won army to protect us
@Yaakov Yosef A
The core issue here is that “hishtadlus” does not permit גילוי עריות and going OTD.Thats a huge exaggeration. Firstly there are tons of very frum ehrlicha groups in ethe IDF where non of this occurs. Just look around and you’ll see. Loom at them daven and learn in Gaza. Ask r Asher Weiss about the shaIlas he gets from them like how to put in teflin with no arms and you’ll cry. Second. those that go OTD especially charerdim were generally on their way before they joined. So its like what came first the chicken or the egg?
They are out to “bring the Chareidim into the Israeli mainstream”, which is dog whistle language for OTD.
Or maybe its just a dog whistle to say, do like we do in America. We work with goyim and shiksas too. We also “mainstream” but stay strong with our yiddishkiet too, whats wrong with that?why don’t the Chilonim who don’t like the army go become Chareidim?
Thats not a question. Its hard to become frum if use to being a chiloni just to get out of the army. But if you are always frum and just want to balme yeshiva on it yes thats an easy way out@Yaakov Yosef A
Yes and no. I don;t know that Qatar is ready to just throw money at s0omehting that will get bombed. They aren’t that suicidal. Furthermore, israel I thi9nk will always end up with more land and a stronger buffer zone. Lastly, this place is in such dissary and people are so homeless, I think even that has limits. I am not saying never but they will need 10-20 years@somejewiknow
well said and zionism is a shiul hadas issue where both sides have a valid torah view. Sorry but I have no patience do get deep and philospohiical with chazal and midrash,. People like you will always find a gotcha vort bec torah is a mayn shein lahm sof and there is anything you want out there. We do with simple jews who all held of R Kook as holy. The Rizyna rebas and many of R Kook supporters including r chaim ozer and the chaftez chaim and R iseer zalman. Even r Herzog if you ever meet or heard him you’d see how chashiv and real he was aside for the unbelivable hatzalah work he did before and after the war. Many holy rabbinim said its hachlata degula. On the other side yes you have people like the holy stmar reba zya who in his zest to withhold yidishkiet was a bully who silenced anyone who disputed him Including the Klausnberger (I know someone who wrote a seferrefuting al hgeula va atemurah and his warehouse was burned down the next day). And yes you have briska rav (today birsk is mainstream but they do and did very odd things borderline OCD) and R elchanon zl. At the end of the day yes its a shikul hadas thing. Mnay have the mesora that its a haschlata degulah. You can bully us and yell kofer all day long. But its nonsense and a lieI think at the end of the day, this is a mixed bag. Yes Hamas is back sadly. But they will think twice before attacking again. Sure they don’t care and are suicidal. But they lost all their leaders even the rich cats in Qatar got a shake. Their place is decimated even for their standard. The other enemies aside for Yemen got a good clap and didn’t help them much. They will need to focus on rebuilding in the short run.
Of course till moshiach comes that’s how life will be and we aren’t safe. But the reality is its not a total lossI don’t really get the key point of this threat but here are my two cents of the future.
Hamas crushes dissent and then says we need to be in charge during a “transition” when you find other leaders to rule (which will neve rhappen bec they will bully and kill them)
Hamas hands over a few rockets but insists we need to keep weapons. After for the time being we are the only ones who can run gaza.
The UN sends a few troops as safekeeppers. They are bought and bullied by Hamas and just extra hamas fighters. No normal peacekeepers agree to go to Gaza.
Israel stays at its current lines in Gaza till hamas steps down. So for the next year or two we stay there.
Semi mild attacks against the IDF here and there occur just enough to scare us but not enough to invoke a war.
A blockade on new building and limited aid while Hamas is there occurs
The ICC, UN and other watchdogs denounce the occupiers for the suffering of Palestinians nebach stuck in tents
Free palestine protests erupt across the world
Follitals sent by Greta
The dems win the midterms and Trump becomes a lameduck
Fast forward 2-3 years later, Israel is forced to allow in cement and with draw the IDF form Gaza. Maybe it gets a little bit of a buffer zone.
Hamas now starts rebuidling its state of the art Hospitals with stronger and better tunnels
5 years later, Hamas is still there and stronger than ever.This doesn’t mean the deal shouldn;t have been signed. We can’t fight forever. But don’t fool yourself. This is the end game
@Avram in MD
1) I am not worried about using my compnay device for somethi9ng like YWN. They know people browse and its Ok as long as its within reason. Its not gezilah either as its the norm expected.
2) Your hunch is wrong and I would indeed get one if it was free. The money is holding me back.
3)yes people do need the internet on multiple devices. Wake up and smell the coffee.
4) the only data plan I pay extra for is my home internet which I need for work. Otherwise its $25 a month for phone plan with internet.These talks always end up in revisionist history and hot heads dring akup. I also refuse to debate gemara and chazal bec they are always twisted by hot heads who think they have an answer to everything. It bceomes a game of wits vs seeking the truth. Here are facts that we do know
1) In 1924, the C chaim and R chaim ozer zl send r kook to the USA instead of them to represnt the olma hayeshivas, essentially them
2) r Shloma Zlaman went every sholosh seduas to R Kook and he was mesdar by his wedding.
3) similarly both r elahshiyav and R Aryeha levin zl were close to R kook and he wa smesdar by R Elashuv weeding too
4) R isser zalman was very close to r kook. His son was a rosh of Hesder and he was maspid him
5) R Herzog zl was busy saving jewish lives and souls crying for kall yisroel after the war and those stuck in monasteries. Listen T=to r Wein and thew yoras shomiam he got from one encounter with him in Chicago
6) More generally we know that when a movement to shmad exiists, within two generations they are all secular and cvs inter married. This is what happened with shabsi tzvi, reform movement, communisim, the conservative movement etc. Meanwhile they only ziinists left today are the shomer torah umiztvas who are moser nefesh to keep things in the most harshest times.Is zionsim misguided? According to many gedolim yes. But it still has a place in judiasm and they are regular frum people with their shita. Its simil;ar to the fight about Chabad. mnay hold its misguided but we all admit they are still one of ours and frum jews. These are facts. Don’t ;let the haters drei akup
A bit late to this game but there are alot more oot chasdish communtites than whats listed
1) the county has multiple communuties. Montcello all year around is popular
2) Tampa FL- formerly beled and now generla chasdim
3) There are two communtites in AZ that are chasdish, Scottsdale and one more that has official anti vax laws (not getting involved ion politics just stating the facts)Always_Ask_Questions
I simply can’t do that. It’s 2025 and I can’t live in the stone ages with no devices. I also need my smart phone for work. You are being unrealistic. FYI because I live pay check to
Pay check I don’t spend a lot on devices. I buy used smart phones and /or used credit card benefits to get a free laptopFor me firstly my work has its own filter for security and I can’t add more filters since it’d not my computer and I don’t have admin rights . It’s a “goyish” filter. Second on my personal devices I’d love to get a filter but can’t afford a few hundred dollars for my devices. It’s easy to say it’s only a few hundred till you have to pay for it. I have suggested on this forum before that TAG distribute free filters. It’s a tzedaka officially. Bikkur Cholom not only provides food but gives it free of charge . It’s 2025 where people throw out $1m on a simchas b shoeuva like it’s nothing and TAG can’t raise that money? Meanwhile what should I do when I can’t pay my bills ?
Some myths need to be dispelled
Zionsim is not shmad or off the derech. Its a machlokos and dependent on shokul hadas as to who your rav or das torah is. R Kook zl was big tzadik. R isser zalman was maspid him, and the chaftez chaim stuck up for his honor. He was sent by R E;lchanon own’ brother in law who was the gadol at the time R chaim Ozer to Ameirca to represent the holy rav (together with the ohr somach). These are facts and there are pictures of the historic visit. No only was R kook a huge tzadik but so was R Herzog zl. Does anyone know how much he ran around trying to save jews during the holocuast. Listen to R Wein zl talk about the time R Herzog spoke about trying to save yddisha kinderlach in monasteries after the war. The tears he shed as he told everyone to fight for the next dor. Only a tzadik can do that. Then we have the holy rizyna rebas all who embraced zionism. So zionism is al pit torah and has legs.This story with R Aron Lieb is likely made up or exaggerated. R Shtienmnan started Nachal charedi and vadas tal. Everyone knows he supported the army at least for those not holding by going to yeshiva. You can’t make up a shita from one isolated story that likely never happened
There is an issue with secularism. As others pointed out its a case by case basis. What unit does the army joinner join? Was he using the army as an exit strategy but off before hand? The big issue with R Shitneman’s comprimse of hachal charedi was that it was established for weaker boys whihc menas from the gettgo you are doomed. S A system like Hesder where there are alot of good boys ould only elevate the others.
@yankel berel
you can’t let a bully win. We need to bully him back. And to start arguing gemaras and medrshim is pointless. He will have a torah and drei for everything as to why he is right. But when its simple emuna pshuta where we know bug tzadkim (gedolim or not) said things not like him its simple. who do you trust them or the “small” ha”katan”? (yes he will say they weren’t enough of a gadol bla bla but they were holy people so to bad on him)@ HaKatan
Yea sure you have sources like Briska Rav and R elchanon. But so what? I have the rizyna Rebas, r isser zalman, r dessler etc. (There are many more)
The idea that haschalta degula can’t last for 75+ years is silly . Maybe it can last for 200 years . That’s your own made up theory. Meanwhile I heard from tzadkim of today the same. You know how to make up nice Torahs and drei akup. We have mesora . This is a new twist that you made up. Who says it’s only a year or two. No it’s not a rebellion of our torah. Those are your catchy buzzwords . And yes you’ll qoute from R elchanon but that’s him. There are two sides so no zionism is not a rebellion . But I’ll tell you what is . Secularism is a rebellion . So for that I agree with you . But hesder for example is tzadikim@somejewiknow
Wrong if a holy Jew says it that is Torah msina. I don’t buy that your Torah is from sina . One can find a medresh for any viewpoint when it comes to these topics. Beautiful you can drei akup and find all the right things to support you . But they also have sources and never backed down . Unless you are as big as them your words mean nothing to me . No offense . So like I’d rather trust R Moshe Wolfson zl than you . That’s not kefira. And I’d rather trust the holy hysatner or sadiguyera Reba than you . Sorry I boxed you in because I won’t fall for your bully tactics where everyone else source is bad and only yours is good. It’s not kefira to say that a holy tzadik held Zionism is a haschalta degula and I hold of it. No he need not be the leading gadol@hakatan
1) they aren’t weak stories . They just don’t conform to you so it’s weak
2) many rabbonim including the holy hysatna zl said in public they have answers to everyone of the Satmar Reba responses but they won’t debate him. (My guess is he was a bully a bit. Yes a holy man and with so many going secular before and right after the war this was his way l. But a bully it was)
3) this is the main point . You have it all wrong.
It’s not about answers and philosophy. Anyone can dig up a med rash or Torah and say it. It’s about mesora . This was their belief . They said it’s a haschalta dgeula . And they openly said not to bashmutz R kook. No “answers” need to be said . If these holy people proclaimed it then that’s what it is period . Of course there are sources like the holy r elchanon zl hyd who disagreed . That makes it an equal
Machlokos both sides are holy or as you say shikul hadas is needed .
To repeat I don’t want answers or torahs . If a gadol or even holy Jew says it that’s enough@yankel berel
Its common theme here. Another big example is the respect the C chaim had for R Kook Zl. The naysayers will say the story of him walking out during the convention when they bshmutzed r kook was made up. But really was the whole thing made up? Moreover, there are multiple sources about the C Chaim’s respect for R kook. I heard from a chashiva RY bshem the Alfandri that he said the reaosn the C Chaim never made it to EY was that had he come he would have made shalom between R Kook zl and R Zonnenfeld zl and then moshiach would have came. It wasn’t ye the time. He also reviewed the mishana berurah for the chaim after his shver died. These are just a few. One can deny one story but there are multiple stories about their connection. We also all know about the famous visit to America. Initally they wanted R Chaim ozer to come but he was too weak so he sent the R Meir simcha and R kook zl. All poiting to the same thing. They may have disagreed but if he was a “kofer” what the c chaim and R chaim ozer held of him in such high esteem? Now i am sure the naysayer have an answer for everything. But its baloney. An answer doesn’t mean you are right , it just means you are a better debater. The truth lays within. Don;t get fazed by “their “bullying tactics. (I say “their” bec I suspect its all on bully person)@somejewiknow
If R Desller wrote it it isn’t kefira. End of story. i am not as smart as you and don’t have every gotcha answer . i cant twist every response to the 3 shavous to disprove you. But we go with simple emuna of gedloim who said things via a mesora. if R desller , R isser zalman, and other said its an aschlta degulah then thats what it is. R wolfson zl said it was “shevri kelim” instead of moshiach and the 6- day war was a nes. I go with my mesora dn you can go with yours. but don’t call the other a kofer. And I am not interested in your lomdeshai drei kup sources or your theories about whether someone is a gadol. Or wheher it being said over vs wirtten in a sefer mattersa. Thats all just dering akup nonsense. We have our mesora for our rebbes and thats enough for judiasmP.S. calling it “our state” seems extreme even for me. But aschlta degulah or shveri kelim has a mesora from many.
@SQUARE_ROOT
Yes all jews have chezkas kashrus. On top of that the OU is someone who we all eat their food. Moreover, Noone denies R Herzog said this over. Now granted R Herzog was as religous zionist as they come. Does anyone know how much he was moser nefesh to save jews during the holocuast? And how much torah he knew. I don’t know that even the Stamar reba would call him a liar. I am sure he held he was misguided and had wrong hashkofos but a lair?Furthermore, there is what we’d call a raglim ldvor. R Meltzer son became head of hesder and R isser zalman was very close to R Kook zl. All of this is facts.
When it doesn’t fit someone’s narrative they decide to bully and call us a lair
@ ujm
Right only religious zionists lie , you don’t lie? How dare you call it a lie ? Why because you can’t admit others held it was an aschlata dgeula. You can’t lie about public statements. R isser zalman said this in public .Not that I need further proof but you think it’s coincidence that his son became head of hesder
You think it’s coinicidemce that he was close to R kook ?There is only one liar . And I won’t stand for your bullying just because you can’t bring yourself to admit the hard truth. No I say the truth . And the ou is more honest than you as was rabbi Herzog I will continue to say R isser zalmam held this way
@SQUARE_ROOT
Jewish action Published by the OU. Rabbi Herzog said it over as well. They qoute from Harav Dessler as well. Now the naysayers on here will say oh you can’t trust those sources. Well its not the only source and frankly Rabbi Herzog wouldn’t lie outright when he gave his hesped. But I bet the naysayers will continue to lie because they are stubborn or drei akup and wiggle their way out. They think its only their way in torah and noone else counts. Oh and everything anyone slightly MO says is all lies. Only they say the truth. By the way if you know anything aboiut R Isser Zalman and how close he was to R Kook or that his son became head of hesder it kind of lines up. Don’t worry they will wiggle out of that too. But I won;t get bullied by drei kups. The truth is there are many paths to the torah and zionsim . Both the anti and pro were holy people. Its not for me to decide who is more rightous.@ujm
Wrong you lie because it not covinenet. Here is a quote from R Isser Zalman
“A state is something that we have not had for nearly two thousand years, and now it is being offered to us—even if only in a small measure for now. Please, do not reject it. It is evident that it is from Heaven and is a sign of the beginning of redemption.”Here are a few more facts
1) His son was head of Hesder (You think that was by accident?)
2) he was close to R kook ZL
3) He was supportive of Rabbi Herzog zl tooThere were gedolim after the war who held of zionsim as a state. Gedolim such as R isser zalamn (R aron shver) whose own son was the head of mizrachi, Rizyna rebas, who were very holy jews. (the stamar reba went special to the hystina to get him to change his mind). Even R Herzog zl was a huge gadol. Then you have the ponvitcha rav who raised the siaeli falg on yom hatzmot and invited the non frum knesset members to the girubndb reaking cermenoy in punvicth. I heard from R Moshe wolfson zl both how the 6-day war was a nes and that 1948 was an eis rotzon for moshiach but instead we received the medina was “shiveri kelim”. His rebbbe R sharga feivel made a bracha when the state was founded. This is a fact that mnay gedolim held having a state is a good thing. I don’t really take much trust in your quotes from R Avhram Yehousha. Someione who has no shame to belittle R Moshe zl and other gedolim at his Chumash shuir has no place at the table. he may be sharp witted but stiita chutzpahnik and bad person.
@Hakatan,
I love both the state of Israel and NK. Both have their sources and das torah. There are many paths and each has to follow their shikul hadas. Zionsim has strong roots in our torah,Many such as rizyna chasdim have a strong mesora to support Israel.. A gemera and sources or psakim in formal writing are not needed. Yiddihskiet is about mesora. Thats very strong in rizyahn. of course there are gedolim like R Kook zl who were held in high esteem by many prior gedolim in addition to many written responses that support zionsim. But the mesora is the ikkur bec everything else can be twisted and answered up aside for clear mesora.
Then there is also NK who have their mesora and are clearly holy jews. I think there is support for Torah vyoiah for sure. The question becomes if NK holds of R weiss and his actions. Bpashtus they don’t even represent NK. Is that the path of R Amaram Blau and R Katzenelenbogen? I am not sure they have anything to back them up. However the NK mesora has a source.
Lastly I surely don’t see the heter forthe so called “NK” to march next to untznuisdika ladies at free palestian rally. Its a tremendous pirtza and a smack on our kedusha. To stand next to prusta Columbia University students? pretzius Geeevald
@The little I know
I take Continuing ED too. Sorry but that’s a joke and not rigorous. As far as schooling is concerned the majority can just take 2 years of school. That’s simply the fact. I can list about 25 therapists that I know who didn’t go through tough schooling like a dr. And I mean the classic social worker. Don’t kid yourself look at all the himeisha courses in social work. They wouldn’t have that crowd if it was rigorous like medical school. Even the doctorates are a joke. These are facts not opinions. Now maybe you don’t need as much schooling for everything but still these are the facts. Of course psychologists are of a different league but I refer to the social work field which is the overwhelming majorty.You also feel to negate my other points. Its so obscure to begin with. Define who is really ill and who isn’t. What’s the cure? Some need it for life. And what’s the success rate? Its kind of the wild west out there with mental heath. This isn’t to say its all a fraud. But its just way overdone . its just not something we can pour money in. My opinion is that insurance or medicaid shouldn’t cover that. We can make it like Dental, a supplementary coverage for those who chose to pay, that will also have limits
I think scam is a strong word. I’d phrase it like this, there are no free lunches and everything costs money. Private insurance has to raise premiums to cover therapists now. Medicaid is ballooning out of control and bankrupting our country. suffice it to say we don’t have unlimited resources. Now the question is, if spending so much to solve mental health issues are efficient? So ask yourself the following,
Define who needs a therapist and who doesn’t? We know for example the cvs cancer lo alinu is very definable. One sees it on a cat scan etc. Define what is menatlly ill and what is isn’t? Similarly do we all really need a therapist when we go through a hardship? My grandparents went through the holocaust and had nightmare’s every night yet never saw a therapist. Obviously that’s an extreme but do we always need to see someone? Is every issue unsolvable with our own grit and determination?
Next question, whats the defined cure? For yena machala the goal is to shrink the tumor and the treatments are proven to work in many instances. What’s proven here and how efficient is the cure? For many they will never break out of their cycle and will be like that for life. I get you that some of it is about managing living with the illness just like someone manages diabetes etc. But even that, how effective is it really in managing it? And it mostly will never get rid of it.
Furthermore, what makes a therapist equipped? Not to knock many hard working therapists. But an oncologist for example attends rigorous training and schooling for years. A therapist attends a sara schneir online zoom class for 2 years? It just doesn’t seem to that the same level of rigor is required.
I am sure therapy helps some people, some marginally and a few majorly and many barely anything. The question is really if this is an effiecnt use of limited resources?
Years ago most non chasdish (chasdim were the minoirty) did not cover their hair at all. This includes many prestgious rabbnim’s wives. And so this who9le conversation is kind of based on the assumption that we are better than they were. Look at pics of your great grnadmother whether in the lower east side or in Budapest. Most did not cover their hair when married
Here is another simple solution. The non chasdish cheders should adopt the chasdish style in term of when cheder starts for a young boy.. By chasdim kindergraden is essentially primary/pre=1a. And pre-1a by them is first grade better known as Kita alef.. This way boys will essentially go to EY a year younger and come back a year younger, For anyone who says but the boys are too young to start then , well chasdim start then and its seems fine? When I grew up it was normal to be bar mitzavh in 8th grade even in non chasidsh schools. Now its 7th grade. What for?
There are many answers to the 3 shavous
1) We don’t pasken like aggadata
2) Its only when the goyim keep their oath and don’t cheper jews. Once there was a holocaust thats gone.There are others too. i had a list of 3-4. Now to be fair the Satmar reba disputed these. But those that held these views were not around then anymore to answer the reba. Furthermore, the reba disputed these after the medina was founded already. At that point in time it was a mute point since it was a done deal so why argue with someone who had the bully pulpit like the satmar reba who if you dared dispute him, his mafia would go after you. he himslef was a huge tzadik but his kanois stirred the mafia around him.
As far as what agudah held, it was diverse. Ther were some to the left and some to the right. Many of the rizyna rebas held zioinsm is al pi torah and others held not like that and you had people in the middle. The imeri emes held R Kook zl was tzadik who was just misguided due to his tzidkus as you see in his letter. Many many big gedolim gheld of R Kook inlcuding R isser zlaman and R aryeah Levin. of course the chaftez chaim held of him too. Move to today when the battle is different and its isn’t about a state rather its about secularism. I think some of it is mistrust vs real issues while some of it is that the system grew into an unprecndted system where being charedi means to learn a whole life and not work because of the way things were shteled avek by the chazon ish years ago. . Its hard to break from that. But at the need of the day agaudah shita today is more to the right in terms of joining the army.
Re zionisim itself its machlokos and both sides have strong torah sources
@Non Political
the truth is both though. There were definitely zionists out there to shamd and who hated the frum. Ben Gurion YMS and his team openly stated so. We know they kidnapped from children from birth and sent them to frei kibbutizm. Th3e chazon ish z’l own assistant use to sneak in to try to get them back. We all know the fiaah yossela story where the govt spend resources that could have been used to hunt down Mengeles YMS , but instead they went and used it to hunt down Yossela hiddne by rus Blau and staying by a satmara in willamsburg just to shmad him. On the other hand there are good zionsists such as Began and others who were perhaps semi or not frum but not out to get the charedim to be not frum. Fast foward to today and almost no zionists is out to make charedim not frum anymore. Their goal is that they fight and work vs just learning. Maybe they are out to make them 5-towns bal habatim vs chasidsiha yidden or BMG yungerlit