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@Non Political
the truth is both though. There were definitely zionists out there to shamd and who hated the frum. Ben Gurion YMS and his team openly stated so. We know they kidnapped from children from birth and sent them to frei kibbutizm. Th3e chazon ish z’l own assistant use to sneak in to try to get them back. We all know the fiaah yossela story where the govt spend resources that could have been used to hunt down Mengeles YMS , but instead they went and used it to hunt down Yossela hiddne by rus Blau and staying by a satmara in willamsburg just to shmad him. On the other hand there are good zionsists such as Began and others who were perhaps semi or not frum but not out to get the charedim to be not frum. Fast foward to today and almost no zionists is out to make charedim not frum anymore. Their goal is that they fight and work vs just learning. Maybe they are out to make them 5-towns bal habatim vs chasidsiha yidden or BMG yungerlitCorrection to my other post, I meant Freudiger not stern
@DaMoshe
Also worth noting that there were many good and bad even among the nonf rum. So ben gurion was a rasha and i think that clear. He was out to shmad. We see how he kidnaped innocent children born after the holocaust and immigrants tearing them away from their mothers just to raise them in a non frum kibbutz. He was a murderer too as what occured with Began and the boat. On the other hand, Began was righteous despite being mostly secular (half frum). He commanded his army not to shoot back at ben gurion because we don’t shoot at other jews. This was after Ben Gurion YMS killed any of Began’s people. As it pertains to the war, yes the Zionists on charge then such as Ben Gruron and his ilk said one cow in Palestine is better than 1000 jews in Europe. They impeded R Michoel ber zl henceforth, Ben Hecht book.On the other hand there were members of the Zionist underground who were cooperative and did save jews. I don’t recall if Gisi felishman wa s a zionist but she was not frum yet saved jews. Thne you had jews like Samu (Shmuel) Stern, who its very hard to know what the right thing to do was during the war. Do you try to cooperate with germans to save a few which he did? Or do you tell everyone to run and hope more survive? Hindsight is always 20/20. I suspect many of the zionists were stuck with that dilemna tooEither way there is amesora form many holy people like R Wolfson and the Rizyna rebas that the founding of the state of Israel was a good thing, albiet onlt “shiveri kelim”
I heard nearly the same exact words from R Moshe Wolfson zl who was a Talmud of R Yakov and in fact his hired mashgiach and right hand man. He gave us a whole shuir on the miracles and virtues of Zionism despite opposing its secular nature . It wasn’t hearsay or an ArtScroll book. I heard it from the tzadik mouth. This is more reliable than a source from our Torah that can always be interpreted how one likes. This is a mesora from a tazadik. By the way he also once told me that part of the reason that he says long sholosh seudas Torah was due to what he saw by the Satmar Reba Zya . So he knew all sides yet said what he said
@somejewiknow
reigkus Zionism ain’t Herasy. Many are mote ehrlich than Satmar chasidim. Look at the way they Daven and learn and do mitzvos even in the toughest times like during a war. Throughout Jewish history the litmus test and gold standard of what makes an ideology aprikrosis has always been look at both how it evolved and what people do during tough times. Anything that apkikorsis whether is Shabsi Tzvi or reform or communism etc, you look at he next generation and you see how they evolved . Did they stay as Shoner Torah umitzvos. Religious Zionism get more ehrlich not less. That’s a Siman that they ate part of frum Torah Judaism. They may be a different ideology and that where shikul hadas comes and says what path to follow . But of course both are holy@Yaakov Yosef A
i can agree with the “was”. Although I’d say that in certain “ashkenaz ” circles there was a very strong repsect for the RUV also just much as as by chasdim. Especially those part of a kehila which did succeed in keeping out the neologs.
However, I beg to differ on the “are better” aspect. Lately Chasdim are having a big issues with OTD, semi OTD , Tuna baigels etc. The core chasidus becomes more and more chinyuked (At times thats a good thing and at times its overdone). But not of all its people are holding by its draconain taknus. They then became shunned or second c;lass citzens. Their success rate is becoming lower and lower. Meanwhile in litfisha circles even someone not holding by the rules of the “yeshiva world” still are basically stickling around and often their children still become “yeshivish”. Chasdim need to wake up and address the crisis in their midst. Its a big issue
@Always_Ask_Questions
Its not clear what R Isser zalamn persoanlly held re the medina but I believe actions matter. Lamza he was very close to R Kook Zl and his son became the next RY of Hesder. He was proud of that son just as much as his edim R Aron ZlForgive me for saying this but your response is classical whitewashing. Its always a nice convenient answer to say oh he was so influential and the other rabbonim had no choice. In fact I believe that’s the excuse why so many gedolim addressed R Kook Zl with such high esteem. Same excuse oh he was so influential that they had no choice. (As if being the chief rabbi of so0me third world backwards non country was so influential)
Here is the truth, R Aron would never have sat down with a true kofer or apikoros no matter how influential they are. R Aron was not a push over or one to compromise He was pure. And in fact he didn’t sit down with anyone in JTS despite the fact that Rabbi Sol Liberman was a genuis and knew kol hatorah kula. (He was also the chazon ish cousin) Furthermore, as I noted, R Aron asked him to give a shteler to one of his talmidim in YU. If YU is complete kefira how can R Aron do that? Its also well known that the two families were close too.
(Side note, its funny how you quote R Isser zalman zl all of a sudden. You do know that he was very close to R Kook Zl. And his own son became head of hesder after R Kook)
Bottom line, yes R Aron was very mad at R JB and did not hold of his approach. He was very vocal and sharp. But he didn’t mean what he said lieterally. He still held him in high esteem. Thes excuses that oh he had no choice because he was inlfuential, I just don’t buy them
@HaKatan
Yet R Aron sat with him for chinuch Atzmo. He had a strong personal connection. There are eyewitness testimonies that he walked into YU to ask R JB ZL to provide a shteler for a close talmid. (This isn’t heresay, it happened). Rabbi JB came to R aron levaya. And R Malkiel shlita was on his way to rabbi JB levaya till R Elya Svei stopped him. And so people say sharp things but actions matter. its clear that rabbi Solvetchikc was considered a gadol despire R Aron’s comments.To put things in post war perspective. Aguda had a huge spectrum. There were sone who were totally pro Zionism but were anti secular and opposed Israel only because of its secular nature . They even once held that you should fight in the IDF and be happy there is a state yet oppose the secular aspect. Others held don’t join the idfakd we are opposed to the statehood yet since we have no choice cooperate for the better cause. Then others were somewhat in the middle, they did join and support the IDF but didn’t oppose the state or the idea of it. They kind of tacitly supported it via raising flags and inviting its secular members to speak. That’s where most of the yeshiva world was. So punivitch chevron and the Mir held that as did most of the USA . Basically proud that there is a state but unhappy about it being secular.However basically cooperative unless it was a direct edict like gyuis bnos. Then there was briska rav who didn’t have a yeshiva and just gave shuir to10-15 bochrim in his dinning room . He was totally opposed but a minority .
That’s still very different than REITs who was mizrachi..But there were holy Jews on the mizrachi side too. And it’s really a shikul hadas who you hold like
This is very complex question that needs to be broken down into many pieces. Firstly what’s Zionism ? Is it the idea of having our own country or is it about cooperating with secularists who are anti Torah ? Then there is the pre war to post war . Then there is Agudah vs mizrachi. Then there is peleg vs main agudaj
So before the war there were many pro the idea of a state just not a secular state. Yes R elchanon and r Chaim were anti as were of course the yershalmi tzadkim. But then you had R isser zalman zl and R Areya levin and even R Chaim ozer to an extent who were pro Zionism as in a state and supported R kook .
After the war , the punvitcha rav and R Lazer yudel Zl raised the flag and somewhat supported Zionism.
In the USA and Canada most RY supported the agudah faction with some like R Shrage fievel very supportive of Zionism. All of them held that secularism is evils and we need to oppose the govt of Israel because it’s secular and not because having a country is bad. R JB Zl on the other hand supported mizrachi and not agudah thereby saying he supports even secular Israel. So they differed then But they both held that once Israel is here to stay let’s work with them.Fast forward to 2025 . The American yeshiva system became influenced by the hard core Hungarian chasdim like Satmar and by brisk. So that slowly morphed into this new ideology that essentially opposes Israel completely but because of R Aron zl traditionally being part of agudah it’s somehow still Agudah even though it’s closer to Satmar now .
@Kuvult
So far asdie for a few hiccups its been working in our favor. its two sided. It also means that Hamas and Qatar can’t pressure Trump into a deal if he doesn’t like the deal either. They surely don’t like Trump’s Gaza plan and are more boxed in. Israel got tons of weapons that Biden never sent. And Israel is now allowed to block humantarin aid while trump fully supports him. Did he at one point try to chat with Hamas? yes for like a day but he saw that was a bad idea and stopped. Re his talks with Iran lets see. But it won’t get anyhwere and Trump ain’t that stupid. Furthermore, his base is fully pro israel. and hate Muslims They weren’t fully pro Ukraine and so that’s not analagous.All In all, I have heard this hype before. But I think that fear is unfounded. I think its just an excuse that the frum never Trump folks use because they can’t admit that Trump is the biggest brocho for israel. To GadolHatorah point, his craziness is bad for other things like Cancer research (as much as I love him going after Harvard, but not that)
One more point, I think the good and bad of Trump is really all one Trump. it just sometimes works in our favor and sometimes it does not. Its really one rash behavioral altitude. Either he hates something or loves it. He goes full throttle once he forms his belief and there is no budging him easily. So this is good for us when it pertains to israel. No nonsense and no monkey business with terrorists and its supporters. But for example tariffs, reducing size of govt or immigration require a more nuanced balanced approach. With trump you get one pckaage deal. His “middas” are a blessing and curse
@MRS PLONY
No you aren’t. I second your opinion. Not only that but I think you are so spot on.The never Trumpers will never admit that Trump is a huge Bracha for Israel and its current war. Whether it’s the Trump Gaza plan, the fight with the houthis, giving Israel a free hand to do what it pleases, sending all and any weapons needed etc. And fighting anti semitism and the colleges.
On the other hand, the maga folks will never admit that hegseth is a threat to public safety. Or that the Trump Tarrifs are insane and destabilizing in so many ways. It’s out of control. Even his anti immigrant rant and MS13 fights are populist overdone fights. DOGE and empowerment musk like this is crazy too. Although cutting the federal govt is not a bad thing if done wisely.
So yes you have my vote . And both sides are so stuck in the mud that neither can admit the in between
@somejewiknow
That’s only if it’s halcha and not if it’s hashkafa. In hashkafa like Zionism there is no such obligation.Furthermore, if the leading anti lived later they surely don’t have to. And certainly if those who published were bullied into submission by his mafia. But all this is secondary
@somejewiknow
Sichos Mussar, Maamar 22 (Parshas Vayigash),Furthermore, you need to end these made up rules that we need a written source. if a gadol says its opnely thats fine too.
@Always_Ask_Questions
Its a very confusing subject. is advocating to live in EY the same thing as advocating for a statehood? The Chovevi tzion definitely was very for moving to EY too, Its hard to know although it would seem that they’d be pro. I think its fair to say that anyone who advocated to move to EY after 1917 when the baflor declaration was approved knew that by advoctaing to move there you are by default supporting zionsim.The other concept that somejew keeps on mixing up is what the oppostion was. The Imeri emes for example clearly wasn’t happy with R kook Zl giving heterim and being so open to welcome the not frum He doesn’t wite anything about the idea of shlosh shevous or taking back land. . Its not zionsim that he is against but rather its seculrism. There always two distinct issues that get confused. The Stamar hungarain camp was against ziosnism as were the briskers but the poylisahs and others were against secularism.
Just stating the obvious, the question of Zionism is not a matter of Halacha in which one needs to write a Sefer to defend. It’s an hashkafa to which when there is mesora and the tzadik repeatedly supports it that’s enough. I don’t mean just one random story. But when it’s a story done in front on 100s of people in public over and over again that’s enough to say it has a place. And the tzadik need not provide the support for a pro Zionist stand. Just declaring it is enough.
That brings me to my point that the rizyna Reba’s all openly supported Zionism . It therefore has a place in Judaism. These were multiple Reba’s and holy people all openly declaring support such as openly celebrating Yom hatzmut.
Now to the next point R Kook zl. All we need to establish was that he was a gadol. And we know that because R Areya Levin and R isser zalman all held him in high esteem in addition to so many other older gedolim like R Chaim ozer and the chafetz Chaim. We also know that he was R Elyshav zl rebbe and mesadar kiddushin. R Elyashiv never let anyone bashmutz him and held of him in public. Does that mean that they held of his Zionist ideals ? Probably not . Although R elyshav worked for Zionists all the years . If Zionism is like the conservative movement you can’t be a rabbi for JTS and frum. That was accepted. And so by the fact that R elyshav worked for them, and held R Kook in such high esteem, it’s clear that Zionism isn’t outright kefira.
To be crystal clear Zionism is hashkafa that need not be defended by Torah sources. You could look at actions and statements by gedolim such as the rizyna Reba’s and R elishyav and that’s enough to say it’s part of Judaism and each one follow what they hold is best.
Lastly, the Zionist issue is different than the secular issue. A lot of the opposition to R Kook wasn’t about Zionism rather it was about that he cooperated and tolerated too many secular people who are against our Torah . This was the opposition of the imeri emes etc. That’s true with wzo too. And so it’s a hard call@2scents
I think that’s a very PC view. Some are not exterme and would rather money or lavish lifestyles vs violence. They are usually modern and less “frum” who just aren’t as devout. But the core of Islam is still about violence. I haven’t seen any “peaceful” Muslims denounce Hamas at the UN..More generally speaking any religion that produces a large amount of violent cult like followers such as Islam there is something fundamentally wrong with the religion as a whole. In other words even if there are 1B peaceful Muslims but there are 20M who are violent, the fact that it can produce 20M violent followers says alot. Yes us frum jews have a few crazies too like Lev Tahor or Boruch Goldstein but its a blip. Everyone has a few bad actors. However, when its so large in size that brings up the question that there is a larger fundamental issue. This is even more profound when the other “frum muslims” won’t denounce the radical’s like Frum jews do.
@Avram in MD
The physical needs of a teen are different than an adult. A teen doesn’t need to bank or shop. They don’t drive etc. For a teen it’s mostly entertainment. And so to say that a teen would say different about it being g necessity is kind of just denying the basic “metzias” of what it’s used for. It’s not a comparison between a teen and an adult.I should say though that non smart phones but internet devices, such as a computer or iPad, while not a necessity, it’s still somewhat so the norm even for teens . And if you don’t provide a kosher outlet like 24/6 which tag banned, they will resort to you tube and goyisha videos. But that’s a different discussion than smartphones
Re your kosher phone idea, I need to be able to browse at times and I also need the convenience of going to an App Store and just downloading apps as needed. It’s so part of my life. The idea of a kosher phone with the apps that I need when I don’t know all the apps I need daily plus I he’d to browse and look up things, it’s just very Amish to me. Now you’ll say that for kedusha I should be moser nefesh and live with that inconvenience. Ok but then you are admitting that it’s a necessity and rather saying I should forgo a necessity.
A normal frum family will have at least two smartphones, a work laptop and family computer plus an iPad or some other device plus maybe a car etc . It’s just growing in size. I think a smartphone for parents is a basic necessity like a phone was when we grew up. Again I get that we should go above that but you are asking to forgo a basic standard in society that’s used for daily functions and not just for entertainment
@☕ DaasYochid ☕
Thats not a fair comparison. There is not spiritual harm there. And there is no tzedaka out there dedicated to cars. Here you have a tzedaka already that’s there to push filters. If not for tag people wouldn’t have filters. So it’s very different. I use bikkur cholim as an example where they provide a full service including free housing near hospitals. The idea is that internet is a huge yetzer hara.one of the biggest biggest barrier and excuse is that it cost money so you push it off. Here you are a tzeadaka that on the surface (unless you read the fine print) seems to impress upon you that they get you filters for free.@talkingtachlisnow26
Your response had a tinge of arrogance in it but it deserves a response and if you chose not to respond that’s your choice
1) not every charedi holds you need a filter. Stolin for example holds you don’t. And others also do but they can’t say so in public. Furthermore, modern orthodox hold you don’t need. They are fine Torah Jews too. This idea that we only discuss or care about “yeshiva world” is so selfish.
2) you dont know what you are talking about when you say if you can afford a device you can afford a filter and it’s buy a barrier. You can get a phone for $50 and it lasts for 3 years . A filter could be $19.99 a month. I got a laptop for free as part of a credit card perk. People buy Tesla because they can’t afford any other car nowadays . When they had those tax breaks a Tesla was by far the cheapest.
3) aside for the above two points you miss the point. At the end of the day filters are something people are lax on. Even if you say it is an obligation, Lmasa many don’t do it or push it off. I know this for a fact. This is on top of the fact that many in the “yeshiva world” watch Netflix and other videos . I want say which neighborhoods but you can all figure it out. So you can say it’s an obligation but so many don’t follow or slip. TAG as an organization that’s dedicated toward this cause has a responsibility to win over us lax people. And you with your elitist idea that it’s a personal accountability and not the klal job is just you being an elitist. In an area where the yetzer hara and Nisyan is so strong of course it’s your job to help. Free filters do just that@Avram in MD
So now you are moving the conversion from internet devices to smartphones to teens. So let me clear the air
1) When I say internet devices are nearly a necessity in 2025, I do not mean a smartphone for teens. Of course that is not a must a necessity and is destructive even for non religous people.
2) So what do I mean? I mean the idea that a FAMILY as a whole needs to be connected to the internet, typically via multiple devices
3) so what kind of devices do refer to? It varies from a family to family. But I’d say parents need smartphones , PC’s, laptops are needed, your car, maybe your some other smart screen , IPAD etc. Do kids “need” to own that? No. But families whole likely do need some of my list.To be clear, I don’t think its being Amish if you don’t hand your child a smartphone with instragram on it. But it is being Amish if you say that internet for an entire family isn’t a necessity in 2025. Also a necessity I admit can be a bit ambiguous. People can live without it However, ist nearly a need like electricty. Leaving out any danger those are the facts. Now you bring danger in to the picture. That doesn’t change the facts though.
So if the facts are that internet connected devices are a need, and a typical family’s needs multiple device. we also know that yes it posses a danger even more so to teens. We can ask families to pay $20 a month per device. but that quikcly end sup being $100 a month and if they don’t disconnect /cancel filters on the old discarded devices it quikcly piles up. Youi can see how thats a huge strain. And the right thing to do is for TAG who has the resouces and know how plus it is a tzedak already, to supply free filters while requesting a donation
I also challenge TAG to wake up a little and end these silly bans like on 24-6 devices because Oy vey it can connect to the internet even though parents can lock that connection and contorl when a child even uses that. thats on top of the fact that its content is kosher. Like do they realize what 90% were doing during covid wtahcing you tube and goyish stuff? Even now if you want kids not towatch netflex give them ksoher stuff. Stop with this farfarmukait. But this is a side topic.
Just to reiterate we agree re children having smartphones thats not a necssity.
@ amom
1) I am not tech savvy but I think there are solutions such as just child locks that can be leveraged. It won’t block as much but it takes care of key risks. Let’s not aim
For perfection. And yes Tag ups the ante for the schools
2) I have never heard of filter sponsors and I struggle with paying for some of them myself . At times I do go without filters because of the costs
3) I have had similar stories with TAG. I once told them I need you tube for work, which is true. (By now I can perhaps get away with chat gpt.) They told me well what would you do if you tube never existed ? Like seriously? This is my need now .@Avram in MD
There is workaround for everything. define a necessity. If it means something that you absolutely can’t live without such as working then yes you’d be correct in saying outside of work it isn’t a total must. But I think most people define a necessity as something that’s so part and parcel of society, in so many areas from shopping to banking to travel to cars to appliances. Sure technically it’s just a convenience but it’s a very very strong convenience that touches upon so many aspects in life. All that you mention are simply workarounds and not the normal accepted practices in 2025. To need to schlep to omny stations are all huge inconveniences. It’s enough to be called a necessity, especially with the combination that you’ll be using it at work too. As I noted electricity is not a must either. I get that it’s not “dangerous” like the internet so who cares. But the point of my analogy is to say that just like electricity is a necessity so to the internet. I am leaving out the fact that eventually you won’t be able to never use internet as all cars will have it and airport checks ins etc will only be via internet.I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Because the internet is spiritually dangerous you are forcing yourself to take an unrealistic position. You don’t feel it’s a necessity because you don’t want it to be a necessity vs facing the true reality.
Just to sum it up the translation of the word “necessity” is perhaps where we differ. If you’d like let’s call it a very strong need. And just because it’s dangerous (to some) doesn’t negate that need. Since it is a strong need, a larger focus on free filters must be provided .
@ Avram in MD
1) The point is when something is so widespread and touches every faucet of one’s lives where almost no one in any civilized society doesn’t use it for every aspect, you can’t say it’s not a necessity. That’s just living in a bubble.
2) it’s not like a flying car which only has one feature. It’s so impactful and integral.
3) Re no matter how dangerous it is? Sure then build safe rails and protection. Just like a car has safety features. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a necessity just because it’s dangerous.
4) But what about religion ? This is a frum site. Again yes so build safe protection. But religion doesn’t make it not a necessity. It doesn’t change a metzius. (Unless your religion is a cult that brainwashes)
5) no matter how unsafe it is? Yes no matter how unsafe it’s so part of life now that you can’t live without it . It circles back to the same point so add safety features but that doesn’t make it less a necessity. (As a side note the way you make it sound like, anyone who touches it will die in a ruchnyus sense is nonsense. Sure it has risks . But most people are still responsible . It’s not level of some atom bomb. That doesn’t mean that some won’t slip but you make it sound like it will nuke everyone. Now to be clear again for the some that will slip you’ll build guardrails)This all boils down to one flawed logic. Because it has ruchnyas risks, you chose to say it’s not a necessity when the entire world runs on it in every way of our life. From shopping to banking to earning a living, to even learning Torah m, checking in on airlines , research, cars, waze appliances etc. This is just a partial list. It’s so flawed to say it’s not a necessity because of a religious risk. That doesn’t change the metzuis.
To be clear we aren’t debating the need for filters rather for devices . And yes it’s fair to demand that TAG pay for it and stop being so stuck up about it. (I suspect you work for them)
Lastly, please don’t use fancy English . I am not as educated as you. It’s just confusing gotcha words
Its important to remember that while most charedim hold not to vote for WZO, there are other shitas too. Mizrachi has stong roots in our torah as well. In fact many of the early charedim were against zionsim only because its secular and not because the idea of our won country is bad. It gets confuing because part of WZO debate is also that they are secular and not just the Zionist issue. So even if we we hold of zionsim we may not hold of WZO. Nevertheless mizrachi is also frum jews and lets not degarde them. They have sources form our torah and they have mesora form their gedolim too
@v32itas
Our goal should be to spread free filters for all. If the open source or whatever does the job good. Of course TAG and some of the others will enagae ins care tactics. they will tell you, look at the boy in EY who cracked a filter code after the company dared them. We can’t use filters that boys can crack,. Therefore only filters that charge exorbitant prices are good. My answer to that is, if a boy or girl is holding by cracking and outmnarting filters , then they are smart enough to buy an unfiltered device at walmart for $20. or take something broken but still usable for free and download stuff at starbucks. It doesn’t take much to exploit the system. But thats not the intent of filters. The ppint of a filter is that it shouyldn’t be juts a clik where innocent people can slowly slip or quickly slip. It should be a lock. But there will always be accesible keys wone way or another and thats a separate issue. So yes free filters for all will accomplish more than having the best filter as so many more will have that lock at least.@Avram in MD
Again you make a very valid religous point. But at the end of the day, Internet is a necessity. A necessity meaning the entire wrold runs on it. And its a complete game changer in terms of quality of life. No mastter how dangerous internet is, its just so widely conveiennet and used in every asepct of your life that you can’t call it a luxury. its like elctricity and cars even though its may pose more danger. And one can’t say that its dangers require you abstain form using any internet device. That would be telling us to live like the Amish. Its not like the TV that doesn’t enhance your life. (I heard from hatzalah guy who was in a call and needed a patient to sign a permission slip for a life saving event on his i-pad. She said she was mekabel not to touch internet devices and can’t sign. It was a whole to do till the hatzlah memeber sorted out how to proceed. I mean thats just crazy but it illusrtaes the point)@Always_Ask_Questions
Yes thats my point. Internet is essential and a necessity today. Anyone who says its not is living in a bubble. Its so part and parcel of our life. So to then argue that its just a luxury and we don’t need to provide free free filters for a luxury is just so far from reality.@avram in MD
I am not well versed in these fancy English phrases and philosophical debate kind of terms that you use.I work at large corporations and am friends with I’d say 100+ non frum or goyim. The idea that have connections to internet is doable in 2025 is completely Amish. Take religion out of it and you’ll see the entire world runs on internet and its devices . From cars to appliances to every day living . This is just the basic reality. Who doesn’t shop online in 2025? I bh have a large family. Imagine if I didn’t have Amazon or target to shop online. Just buying Pesach between clothing and food etc which needs in person is a nightmare . If I had to be busy buying everything physically it would be impossible . Sure before internet that’s how they did it . But yes once upon a time they didn’t have cars either Then there is Waze for directions, swiping your phone at airports to get on planes and so on and so forth. Internet is so part and parcel of life in 2025, that’s it’s completely absurd to say it’s not a necessity like electricity. It’s only because you live in the TAG space that it’s sold like that . In the real world that’s so far from the Truth.
Now one can argue that it’s so dangerous that ok let’s be extra holy and live like the Amish. I think that’s for those that are above and beyond but not something you can expect the broad community to uphold by.
And to be clear that doesn’t mean no filters . But we need to start realising internet is a necessity but it’s costly to also require every family to pay for those fllters. TAG with its connections and expertise can and should cover its costs..
P.S. I am not sure what your whatever is but it’s clear that TAG donations are maser money and it’s a charity
@somejewiknow
thats a lie that no one refuted the 3 shavous. There are open answers such as that we don’t pasken like agadata and that it only applies when the goyim don’t cheper us. Now the Reba did dispute those answers, but those were the answers . Your question is only why no one refuted the reba refute.No one denies that the reba was a posek and Adam godel. But that doesn’t change the facts that you can’t use that as a your standard. Because it was both impossible to argue on the reba without getting bullied and because the question wasn’t relevant anymore.
Lastly just because the reba decided it’s a Halacha doesn’t mean everyone else held that . Most held it’s a hshkafa to which no answer is required . Mesorah is enough
@avrahm in MD
Frum Jews are not supposed to live like the Amish. Not having devices is living like Amish. To be clear cvs am I knocking those that chose to be above and beyond but you can’t say that it’s expected of every frum Jew. Devices are a necessity . You can say filters are expected . But to say not having devices is a norm is just not true. (Of course tag says otherwise but that’s a bubble ) Yes people need devices and yes when Tesla is 199 a month and everything else 399 where most will have internet soon anyhow it’s also a necessity.The growing movement to live without devices is tiny. That’s a myth that tag likes to sell. Furthermore, that doesn’t mean no other internet connections like iPads , teslas , smart kitchens etc . It’s strictly a smart phone discussion and it’s a tiny blip. It’s not growing.
Lastly of course it’s a full tzedaka like tomchai Shabbos . That’s very clear and yes of course maser is ok. Now you are trying to twist things .
One more fallacy with @somejew argument.
So we know that there are sefarim out there that answer the basic arguments such as sholsh shavous.
But then after most of those authors were nifter vyoel Moshe came, and refuted the prior authors answers on the 3 shavous . And so his flawed argument is why didn’t anyone come after the Reba and answer that up ? You can’t ask why it wasn’t addressed before the Reba came along because nobody was a prophet and they didn’t know the Reba arguments to address it. They knew the basic anti Zionist argument but not the Reba argument on their response. And so the question is why didn’t anyone refute the Reba after he wrote his Sefer? Well by then the question of Zionism was basically not relevant any more.Mr somejew is a good pretzel maker but the whole premise of the argument is flawed.
Of course it’s also flawed because you don’t need to write a sefer or defend hashkafa. If a tzadik says or displays open public support in a way that’s not subject for interpretation that’s a psak and mesora
@somejew
“Again, to be clear, the Shulcha Aruch (and the general derech hapsak) demands a posek explain his novel reasoning for the public and show the talmudic sources that he claims obligate the public to listen. ”This is dishonest . You made this up. No such requirement exists when its a Hashkafa question. Zionsims is hashkafa. Mesorah is enough and as long as the person is a tzadik thats enough. You refuse to respond because I won’t stand to you makin up the rules. Here are the rules, if a ztadik says hashkafa in public thats enough.
@somejew
We have mesora and psak from tzadkim period. That’s how yiddishkiet works. We don’t need to answer vyoel Moshe. It’s that simple. I won’t stand for your bullying or making up your own standards.Zionism is al pi mesora and both sides are Torah. Listen to what tzadkim say or said. (I trust R Moshe Wolfson zl before some bully on YWn) . We need not know why even though we do know!
@☕ DaasYochid ☕
every yid wants to be good. There are ways to reach them too but that means don’t charge. And yes it may mean to stop banning things like 24-6. By the way it’s a lifesaver for me. My children would be on YouTube like during Covid if not.
Free filters for all is the basic starting point@somejew
“With the exception of Aviner and Solevetchik, the other names are those who where nifter (I think) before Vayoel Moshe was published” So now it needs to be in a sefer that was written after Vyoel moshe was published? It can’t be someone that addressed the issue before him? As I told you that’s an unfair rule for many reasons. But Ill relist them
1) Satmar didn’t let anyone publish sefarim against them
2) By the time the rebas sefer was published, the questions about zionsim weren’t “lmasa” anymore. Its after the fact. Why would a posek be busy with the theory?
As I noted you make up and twist your own rules. I will note to many look how he refuses to debate me. You know why? because I don’t fall for bullies or people that make up rules to squeeze me. I don’t think anyone else should fall for this fraudseter either. Do not let him builly you and dnmever let him have the last word.ZIONISM IS AL PI TORAH. Yes its subject to shikul hdas.
@avram in MD
In 2025 living without internet devices is akin to being Amish. Is electricity a “necessity”? I see the Amish live fine without it. But this is so the normal and such an added enhancement that it’s currently a necessity.More over, at the end of the day TAG calls themselves a tzedaka. My rov collects for them and they even make a Shabbos TAG. The underlying understanding is that are out to get people to filter devices. What they say or write to cover themselves is Symantics.
Let me just say one more thing. My wife often says about tznuis asifas, that the women who come are already the more ehrlich tznuis women. It never attracts the huge growing crowd of people who really need to hear their message. It really does very little to actually enhance tznuis if you don’t attract that crowd. (Especially that many of the younger generation copy them) it’s a feel good thing but its impact is minimal. The same is with TAG. The ehrlich ones already know that anything that has internet connection needs a filter. You need to
go after the growing crowd who buys flat screens to watch Netflix because after all it’s not TV which is trief. I can list 25 more things, but you get the idea. That’s who you need to get. It’s a growing trend and not getting smaller. The way you get them is via free filters or you won’t win them.My key point still remains that I expect more from a charity and that it’s small minded not to do their full job to the end which should include free filters for all with a highly suggested donation of $20 a month .
@somejewiknow
Your premise is that we need find a Torah source that responds to the Torah arguments within vyoel Moshe. This is where you are dead wrong and a pathological liar. We don’t need a Torah source to say Zionism is al pi Torah and do not to respond to the holy Satmar Reba Zya. You made that up.Us ehrlich Jews believe in mesorah and tzadkim. If tzadkim proclaimed and clearly acted in a certain way in public that’s enough to say that it’s the Torah way . This is our strength. We don’t do bible debates. Your trick is to twist it in a pretzel, and we won’t do that . If a tzadik said it was a haschalta degula then that’s what it is.
I will post another 195 comments and will not stoop to have to answer vyoel Moshe.
Folks many tzadkim held that Zionism is the Torah way. But There are two sides and you need shikul hdas or mesorah. Don’t let bullies tell you orherwise .
(P.S. we did quote sefarim that address it as well but you disqualify them like eim habonim simcha. So don’t you mislead us in saying we didn’t quote anyone that refuted the Reba arguments. But it’s not the point anyhow)
Zionism is a Torah way
@Avram in MD
1) As a shita not everyone holds you need a filter. But in realty the schools and mosdos take a stromng stand and require you to follow TAG. (You can’t become a stoilner chusid just for your school)
2) Sure you can say outside of work its not a necssity. But thats not really true. You are living in a bubble. In 2025 almost everyone uses Internet sometime or another. Those that don’t have will call a more “modern familyu member” etc. Technically yes you don’t need to own a device. But cmon its not relastic. The entire world completely runs on internet. This bubble that you built that its not necissty is a bubble. Everything runs on interent today and its normal to not buy things on Amzaon. You won’t to be machmiror extra holy and say no thats a very respectable thing. Bascially, if you took religon out of it, there is no way you wouldn’t have devcies. You only don’t have it because you are relgious. That means its a necssity. A necissity doesn’t mena life or death. It means what’s the norm for today. (Just like a phone, electricity or car. After all we can live amish too)
3) Don’t tell me they aren’t a tzedka. They fundraise and make a Shabbos TAG> My rav encourages us to give tzedaka to them. I refuse to get stuck on technicalities of what it “says” on its website. Its a tzedka . You and I know that. Don’t drei akup.
4) Yes I would donate for free filters. And yes TAG should go fundraise for free filters. That’s exactly my point. Stop doing a half baked job when you are a tzedaka anyhow.. And I don’t believe they can’t fiundraise. There is so much money BH today. Our streets are paved with gold kmat. And klal yisroel gives alot to tzedaka.@1a2b3c
The problem with @somejewiknow is that he will tell you, that he isn’t deciding this rather the shulhcan aruch is. The bully has a twisted way of outsmrating you. He takes a random shulchan aruch up for interpretation blows it up and twists it the way he likes to. Then he sets rules around it that we must take as a given. And then he disqualifies anyone so that its in accordance with his rules. (Like who decided R Kook wasn’t a gadol even though R elyshav said he was and he was his shadchan + mesader kiddushin and rebbe)
And so just to preempt his response, He will deceive you and say its the shulchan aruch and not me. I bet if he asked a real adom gadol even a kanoi and anti Zionist (maybe r Malkiel Kotler shlita ) to look into his heart and tell us if mizrachi jews who are ehrlich and follow torah umitzvois are really kofrim and not part of our torah what do you think he will say? To be clear, I am sure he will say they are misguided and thatsa fine argument. I am also sure he will say the govt itself and secular zionism are wicked people. (I don’t necassirly feel so but I have a hunch he will) Thats fine too. but he wouldn’t say R Kook was bad or that mizrachi are kofrim.Bottom line is there are two sides to Zionism and shikul hadas or mesorah is needed. Don’t let anyone bully you into passuling one side . That person who does is a pathological liar
@ somejewiknow
Torah rebuttal come in many fashions such as public declarations by tzadkim and stories that occurred over and over again. The standard you get forth by Shulchan aruch is bogus. You twisted the shulchan aruch to fit your standards. But yes these tzadkim did go in good ways whether it’s r kook or rizhin.The LIAR or FRAUD is that you don’t “want “ to believe two sides exist so you make up your own rules.
@yankel berel
The reasons no sefarim were written to answer Satmar were the follwing
1)Its hashkafa not halcha
2) You only need to write sefarim if you are against zionsim because how else do you make your point. Its the only method of protest. If you are pro zionism all you have to do is acts of zionsim. by acting in certain ways or joining govts etc, you are in essence exclaining your shita. But what do you do when anti?
3) The reba zya wa s a holy jew but had alot of power and the chasdim were strong. Its very hard to debate him. if you did you were considered less pure. Just ask Klausenberg. (I know of someone who did write a sefer defending zionsim and his warehouse of sefarim got burned down). So do then say why didn’t people write sefarim after the bullying that went on, is in itself a bully tactic. To be clear the reba zya wa sa holy man and he meant lshem shomaim. Especially at a time when so many were going off both before and right after the war, a strong tough stance was needed. But in the spirt of fighting to be pure that was the outcome
4) By the time the reba zya wrote his sefer, Zionsim was a bit of a mute point. The medina was already defacto and the ideology of whether we should go along with the fight to establish a medina was a done deal. Furthermore, the new issue of the day was that it was secular. Till Began came along, not only was it secular which is bad enough but Ben Gurion YMS was out there to shmad every frum jew and was a Lehachis jew. So anyone charedi had to fight those things like gyuis bnos. It wasn’t a time to start defending the idea of zionsim since we needed to oppose the govt anyhow because of its shamd.@Always_Ask_Questions
Somejew made up that this is Halacha when it’s really haskafa. Repeated stories and paskim from gedolim done in front of 100s of people is mesora. Of course that’s good enough to clearly say Zionism has Torah foundations. But he makes up rules to squeeze into his agenda.@ Avram in MD
1) not everyone holds you need a filter. And not everyone holds you need such costly filters. Yet Tag became the defacto rav. So that’s right away different than hashgachas. The cost is per device is far more.
2) some of us need smartphones and tablets . And in 2025 is a basic necessity vs a luxury, even if you are moser nefesh not to
3) Leaving the first two points aside, the key point still remains that TAG is a tzedaka not a business. Its point is to help people get filters. Sure you can hairsplit and say it’s only here to assist and advise. But once you’re in that space and collecting money as a tzedaka for that cause, it’s small minded and misleading (as you admit) to stop midway. No other tzedaka is such cheapskates in 2025. I keep on deferring to bikkur Cholim who could just help facilitate easier hospital stays. But they do more . They give you free food and even free sleeping arrangements. They do the full job. The same is with any other tzedaka that I know. If you want people to really not use unfiltered internet do it to the fullest. Stop being so cheap. (I suspect there is also Shultz involved)