Chaim87

@yeshivaguy45,
Well obviously a rosh yeshiva will say that. But there is so much to question about that.
1) How about the masses that you just know can’t and won’t be a rosh yeshiva. Let not call it masses but rather minority. Surely you just know that 25% will never be the next rosh yeshiva. We aren’t saying “no full time learning for everyone”. Just for some.
2) Are there really no rosh yeshivas in Hesder? I see so many ehrlicha holy jews in the army that you can cry. Have you heard the story by R Asher Weiss about teflin? Why can’t there be a system for more of those boys? I do think 18 is young. But I think we can work with the govt and ask that it be extended to 21-22 when boys are more developed. At that point its not so bad if boys go to “work”. They can go to the army in EY too. I just can’t understand the culture arguement. I should say that I agree it will be harder for chasidim. But even among chasdim Belz has a weaker track. Ger is still hard core but they need to wake up and cater to the weaker ones there too. I think finding a path for chasdim will be harder but not impossible if the army is willing to work with us. But the masses are so anti anyhting.

I think there is a lot of conflating things here.
Whats a charedi and whats M.O.? Is the cool guy with 3 homes living in Toms River and a foodie eating out in $300 a plate restaurants every night, is that the classic charedi? Maybe they don’t have a formal “club” but they make sure every shabbos there is a kiddish with expensive booz and meatboards etc. Its the same thing as a club and its more prevelant in certain neighboorhoods than you’d admit. Or is it the yeshivisha guy with one broken down car living in a tiny apartment near his kollel? Even chasidim have that difference already (unless you are Skver). Some of those communities still have a kididsh in a house with home baked goods and grape juice still. Very simple and don’t even know what a meatboard is. (By the way now in B.P. there are exclusive shuls where its like its own club. Fancy mikvas with a big kiddish etc. Outsiders are not welcome. Its a new fad. )

Now what’s an M.O, guy? Is it the Kushner type (for lack of a better term). Very modern and almost just religous because of tradition. Obviously7 huge kiddish clubs., extreme lavish lifestyles, schools are about being elite and all kinds of functions that aren’t jewish in nature. Some Coed like you speak of. But then there are the ehrlicha YU guys which exist. I worked with a Tzadik who was nifter from Covid. A VP in a large corporation, who tried to hire jews and woke up at 5 AM to learn for 2 hours daily, he had a paper where he’d write a chesbin hanefsh every night. But he was a complete YU guy. I hace come across many ehrlicha YU Teaneack guys like that.

The real ideological difference between the two factions is, do you just keep strictly halacha or is there an idea of a 5th shluchan aruch where you have extra chumras that often our grandfathers never kept. Its a very fine line though. It plays into little things like do you need a hat and jacket when davening etc. It so happens to be that tradional jews “less serious” find it easier to integrate with M.O. and henceforth a higher rate of OTD but i don’t think it defines M.O. or that its a function of M.O. They’d go to chabad which offers a judgement free space too like Kushner.

Bottom line both serious erhlicha and ostentatious shallowness exist in both comminutes and the level of religiosity doesn’t play a role. its a terrible illness in 2024 judisam and is a discusion in it of itself. Circling back to the key thread, Chasdius within M.O. is there to offer that falvor deeper than Halacha for those that seek.

@Always_Ask_Questions
I live in a community where all schools are overwhelmed. There is no threat to any school that Ill send to another school . And I won’t get into another school.

@ader
This simply not true. Many jews have gone out of their way to help and save non jews . In the 1960’s the most vocal advocate for balck rights were jews. There are numerous cases of those.

@Always_Ask_Questions
yes we never know. But I’d be shocked if a random Palestinians called israel out of the good of their heart to tell Israel where Hostage’s are. Most in the neighborhood didn’t even know. And i think you have way to much faith. More likely scenarios are that Israel pays informers. That doesn’t make palestianins good people. It makes them people looking for money. Palestinian good civillains in gaza don’t exist. Don’t kid yourself.

The other two likley pointers are that
1) israel has mossad agents on the ground roaming Gaza. (No doubt in my mind)
2) Hamas messed up a little on this one because they posted a video of them so that they can brag. Israel has good satellite / AI intelligence that can decipher posted videos and figure out the location where it was taken.

I think too many of you have good faith in Palestinians.

@ujm,
Modern orthodox today from a religious perspective is really just what many litfaks or litvaka in the USA used to be. Strictly halacha and an emphasize on not being farfrumt. Obviously introducing chasidus changes the outlook

@ujm,
I agree to leave medicad out of the equation. But we could clalculate the cost of medical care for the accountnat and deduct that. Premuims are set fees. At minimum deduct his premuim like taxes.

@coffee addict; A classic family of 6-7 which is the avreage jewish family is elegible for most programs earning 50K. I need to check about earned income but the other programs for sure.

Also left out of the math, does that person get parsonage? So he/.she may earn only 50K but on top of that some buisnees are allowed to pay for a childs tution pre tax and not part of the perosns income. he/she may have 3 free tutions on top of programs. They also may be a rebbe and have free tution. That also needs to be counted as income as the accoutnat doesn’t get that

@sechel83
Litfaks today are very connected to a rebbe too. Litfkas today do things on a deeper level than schar and onesh too. Everything you say is very much what “Litfish” lakewood is today. Follow the aderi torah event and its all about a simcha and depper way of life vs just the old approach.

Meanwhile many chasidm today are about schar and onesh whether its baout taknos and rules that a kehila has are just in general how they teach tznuis today. Your description of chasdim is the old chasdim of 200 years ago. Read for example the sefer torahros hkodesh from the shomeri emunim about tznuis. Its more about schar and onesh . Satmar and mnay chasdim follow that.

Once again I fail to see how Baltimore correctly captures net income. i assume the mentality there is not to be as dependent upon govt progarms. But how do you calculate that in other communities where at times those on programs earn more than those not on programs?

@Always_Ask_Questions

It’s pronounced litfaks but ok. I don’t think the gra minhag or Shita had to do with chasidus. But it was a change in the pure halacha followed in Europe as the rema.

@ sechel83
Again litfaks believe in a rebbe too. And exactly how you describe Chabad. I will say though that just because someone is crowned Reba because his father was doesn’t make him Reba. The idea that it’s an inheritance doesn’t stem for chasdim. Historically it went to the most esteemed student and not yerusha. Some of the rebas today are clowns and certainally not the most ehrlicha chasdim. P.S. sadly in litfish a circles it starting to become this way too. Although if you totally can’t strong together a shtickel Torah on the Gemara and say a shuir it’s still impossible to be a rosh yeshiva .

@Always_Ask_Questions

What came first? The Rema & Minhag ashkenaz. Litfaks started slighlty after chasdim under the GRA (unless you say that the Besht wasn’t really the same as the current chsdisha movement which started more under he Magid)

@DaMoshe
If you study history you will see that the idea of Das torah and that you must follow your rebbe without disputing him (like chasdim) is a new thing. In the big yeshivas a rebbe taught them torah but they were not mevtal to the rebbe. Research what it was like in Telz, Slabodka, Volozhin etc. Even in the Mir. The litfisha view of a rebbe was limited to just being someone who you learned torah by and not that you were mevatl to him. The whole das torah movement started by R Chaim Ozer but even then it wasn’t like today. Most were independent thinkers. (The exception was the close talmidum of R Chaim maybe). Mnay old rosh yeshivas even held that they need to keep distance and not get too warm with talmidim. If you never study history this will be hard to believe. the fact that you feel attached to R Bender shlita is because litfisha today aren’t what they used to be. its a great thing but its not old school litfaks. Re your point about chasdim not even meeting a rebbe yet follwoing his every word, I don’t see why The tzadfik R chaim Kaneivsky zl was so different. Yes I was zocheh once or twice to get a bracha vahatzlacha from him but I really never saw him yet follow his every word like a reba. R chaim was part of the “litfisha” chasdis” and my reba.

@sechel83, So it sounds like we agree that litfaks today in many ways are chasdish.

I also think your defintion of chasidish is very narrow based (Mostly the chabad based) Your defintion that its about the mindset , “penemis Hatorah” etc. and that its almost an intellectual mindset approach is too narrow. Being chasdish is also about a feel for judaism vs doing this robotically because it says in the torah. That means a few things. Firtsly, doing a mitzvah with a fire and happyiness. Whether its davening or lighting a menora or shaking luluav. We don’t just light a m enora and go back to the germara. We dance and farbriegan plus learn a little by the menora. Thats not so much an intellectual aspect rather its just a physcal connection where you ” enjoy” the mitzva because its part of our life and isn’t just a book a of codes. Its also about kedusha and being extra tznuis, because its not just a book of codes rather its about living for something higher we strive to observe more than just the halcha. The same is about kashrus. Pure halacha perhaps allows cholov stam. But we can do better and be more stringent. Many chasdim only ate meat from their shochet or ruv. Again they live for a higher being and its a way of life vs just a book of rules lehavdil. All this, is to say its more than just an intllectual exercise. Perhaps the earlier seforim and chabad focus on that but once you get to rebas of 150 years ago like the Tsanzer ruv or Belza it;s focus isn’t about the deep thinking rather its more about a way of life that’s more inetrnalized.

@sechel83
Your point about all chasdism vs litfaks is very nice in philosophy. In the reality of 2024 many chasdim just do it out of fear and the chumras come first. Leaving out chabad but look at some of the other sects and the fear factor instilled in it. Meanwhile, many litfaks today (have lots of ehlricha chadsdim mingled in) already observe chumros bec of love of hashem or as you say as a result. They sing and daven long too. This line has blurred and one can probably say litfaks today are more chasdish. (For example when chasdim only observe ceratin chumors bec they are bullied into it, is that a “result of love for hashem? I think even its leaders will argue that they need to observe the chumaros and then they will love hashem like the chazon ish. (I won’t say which chasidus bullies but we know it exists)

Re Kedusha, its defintley the approach of Toldas Aron as per the shomieri emunim to yell about it. I believe most of Hungarian jewry does. Almost every chasdisha rav yells about it by his drashas in 2024. In general the derech of hungrain chasdim were to publcially speak and yell about it. I know chabad doesn’t but others do. And in 2024 it has grown to every chasdis aside for maybe chabad. Please don’t start quoting old chasdisha sefarim as thats an endless debate. You’ll find one way but there are tins the other way. Just look around at most chasdim today and its a fact they all preach about it. I don’t know of screaming about it causes people to be nechashal more. But we all do see that Chabad today in 2024 most defintley has plenty of tznuis and kedusha issues. You can’t deny that. Thus, the idea that its approach is more the right path isn’t convincing.

Lastly, while my keep point remains that chasdism and litfaks switched roles almost, Ill also say there is a 3rd dynamic. People who abuse the chasdic view you illustrate. The view that you just need to love hashem and everything else will come. As someone pointed out thats a feel good thing and it took off like fire in certain new movements. It only works if while thanking hashem you really seek to live a life of what hashem wants of us. Not a life of fluxury and ostentatiousness but if i say I love Hashem all is good.

@sechel83,

You are describing one nitch of chasdus called chabad. I hate to say this but Chabad isn’t the only chasidsha group nor does it have a right to claim that only its way is the true way. There are many ways to serve hashem including many chasdisha ways. The big broad chasdisha groups whether its belz, satmar, Ger or chabad all believed that the way to serve hashem with more of a feeling and heart while Litfaks were more focused on just observing whats strictly required by the torah. That means that things like davening we only to obeserve the halcha part but who says its needs to be with a bren and fire or that everything needs a minyan. When it comes to kedusha thats not anyhwere in the torah so who says we need to do more. Most chasdim aside for chabad actually do very much scream about shmiras enyiam (look at the shomieri emunim’s sefer tahros kakodesh) and thats a big thing. Yes that is a chasdisha thing and you have no right to say it isn’t because its not chabad’s thing. The idea of kedusha is, that nowehere in the torah does it explicltiy outline the exact limits. But if one lives for a deeper meaning and wants to do it for hashem kedusha is a focus. Its 100% a chasdisha concept that must be spoken about. Same is true about kashrus where chasdim have more chumras bec even tough techincally maybe chalov stam is permitted we live to a higher standard than just what the torah allowed.

Yes chabad differs in that its about training your mind while other chasdim believe its about being extra observant than just the torah but chasdis is living for more then the torah and a code of laws. Once again sorry but chabad is just one of many chasdism.

This is all leads to my point, the old school litfak is almost non existent aside for the “frum Modern orthdox black hats who still kind of subscribe to that.

@DaMoshe,

Umm Litfaks mesora is the same as chasdim. It stems from the GRA . Its about the same time as the Besht
Re the feel good aspect , one can argue that litfaks have also a feel good intellectual argument where its all about torah

Now the real mesora is Yekkis and ashkenzai jews. Not litfaks. That means doing things like the Rema. And yes saying yotzer on YT etc.

Now we need to fast forward to todays society where you have a point. Chasdim aren’t suppose to be just a feel good thing. Its supposed to be about really observing extra Keddusha (extra tznuis) davening for long even in the weekdays in a hurry etc. Meanwhile litfaks historically, Litfaks only cared about torah and halchaha but not tefila or kedusha.

Fast foward to today, unfortunately chasdim are being abused as about feeling good and partying at R Shayla while fressing meat. It became about olem hazah . Tznuis has gone down too. And we have formally non chasdim part of newly made fake chasdish movements that think thats what’s important about life. meanwhile Litfaks are now the leaders on kedusha, davening long and being ehlrich. So technically in 2024 you are correct alot of being chasdish is fake

The Satmar Reba z’l was very holy and his shita is definitely highly respected. However, he was a das yachid and extreme. One almost wonders if he said many things simply so that the masses don’t get caught up with the fervor of the moment. In those days, unlike today it was very in style even among charedim to become or support zionism, He had to hammer in the point how bad it is and how we must disconnect. In reality its alot more muted. In reality in many ways its a bracha for all jews.

Most other gedolim did not hold like the Satmar reba.

Re 1948, I never heard that the zionists had a choice not to fight. That’s revisionist history. Once they UN passed a resolution we were attacked. Perhaps you want to argue that who asked the tzionim to push that resolution? That’s easy for you to say now in 2024. In 1947 noone wanted the jews even after the holocuast including the USA. Europe was becoming communist and closing the iron curtain. What was our choices?

Re 1967: Yes technically Israel attacked first. But everyone in their right mind knew Israel was on the brink. Had they not attacked first 5 countries would have attacked us. Yes the fight started over the Suez canal and the satmar reba said who asked Israel to pick a fight over a water channel. But cmon without that cannel Israel can’t function. And it would have just pushed Egypt to do more The reba says the success of the 6 day war was masa soton. But almost every other gadol said it was nissim.

As the tzadik R wolfson shlita says, in 1948 it was an eis ratzzon for moshaich. Instead hashem gave us some broken shards (shiveri kelim) to hold onto after all the tzaras we went through in the form of a state of Israel.

Its easy to be a hothead in 2024 but before you are a big talker research your facts and imagine you lived then

HaKatan
I love how you quote R Chaim Volzhin. Many zioniosts came out of the yeshiva . the chovai tzion movment under the netziv happened there too. I urge you to speak to older jews around after the holocaust. For some reason that don;t generally feel the same about the medina. Ask yourself why not? They are wiser than you. The answer is because they saw the alternatives . They grew up knowing what its like to not be wanted by anyone. Its easy to judge now.

All big talkers influenced by todays zealot kanyous in style brands. After the war noone else wanted us and Israel was the place to go. Speak to your grandparents who were survivors. notice they almost all were pro zionisim. They went through ghenim and understood. Its easy to sit in the USA and be a hot head. It comes from immaturity just like the naïve ceasefire protestors. what do you really know about zionism?

Here are some fun facts; R Kook z”l was R shloma zalman z’l and R Elyahsiv’s rebbe. Many gedolim held like him although hard to know if most. We do know that MOST gedolim held of him including the chafetz chaim who wanted to make peace between him and R Chaim S.

I know gedolim made all kinds of statements. But at the end of the day most of them were really just against the secular nature of the state vs the concept of taking it back or the 3 shavous. Yes they will say different but thats the real truth.

Re today, these are just tinok shneshbos who no longer look to shamd. Stop it with this “zionist’ nonsense