Chaim87

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  • in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2363906
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @yankel berel/ @SQUARE_ROOT,

    1) Notice that Hakatan and somejewknow have a very similar style of writing and content. That should make you highly suspicious that its the same person trying to troll and outshout by using two names. Its a tail sign of bullies who can’t defend their argument.

    2) the sefarim we quote from are never good enough. Even though R Teihctal was a huge gaon as well as so many other authored sefraim.

    3) Your quotes even with eyewitnesses such as talmdim of R Sharga feivel who heard and saw it, don’t mean anything to him, He makes up his own rules. He decides who is an undisputed gadol (incidentally the Satmar reba ZYA was very holy but very very disputed) and he decided that it needs to be written in sefarim or else its no good. He also decided that its a halcaha issue. None of that is true. We have so many eyewitness stories and mesoras from so many people and chasidm about how their reba felt and acted with the state of Israel. Its not a halcha nor must everything be written in sefrom.

    One thing is very clear, Zionism has string roots in our torah and we don’t need published sefroim to say this.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2363546
    Chaim87
    Participant

    Bottom line that Zionism is not idolatry or heresy nor against the Torah according to all. Period. Acording to many its a haschlata dgeula

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2363545
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    You don’t need sefarim to prove that zionism is al pi torah. You made that up.

    “THE” gedolim such as all Rizyhna rebas supported Zionism. It was very much part of the fabric of 1000’s of chasdihsa yidden who heard public proclamations. (Incidentally its in their serfaim too)

    Zionism is obviously part of the Torah. Period.

    I won’t let you have the last word no matter how bullish your statements are. And you don’t get to make up what rules are like that you need sefarim.

    Again, Zionism is obviously part of the Torah. Period.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2363513
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @yankel berel,

    R Aron ZL father-in law R isser Zalman was very close to R Kook. His brother in law Become the rosh yeshiva of Hesder. R Shnuer zl grew up among them.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2362965
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    The gedolim publicly and explicitly and in writing labeled as idolatry and heresy all forms of Zionism, including “Religious Zionism”.

    Correction: he means to say “some gedolim” not “THE” gedolim. There were big gedolim that staunchly supported Zionism publicly saying so and acting in its defense. You are write about your last piece. There is no defending them because they do not need to be defended. They stand on their own torah merit.


    @ZSK
    , These kind of fakers tend to spread falsehoods by bulling and using strong words that sound like wow who can argue on that. They say things like “undisputed” and “indefensible”. Harsh words. And then they discredit any source you bring because its not their source. Despite the fact that their gadol himself wasn’t accepted as world gadol by his own nephew who was a holy reba bringing so many jews back to Judaism in the DP camos doesn’t matter. Only he is helig but your gedolim aren’t. This is the pattern of a bully who lacks logic.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2362769
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    ” As well, the Zionist “State” is not a legitimate “State”, as per halacha,”

    Its not a “Halacha” you made that up. Its hashkafa and it need not be defended in written sefarim. Hashkafa is determined by actions and words that holy gedolim spoke. (Of course we can find published sefarim and many of them but thats irrelevant). And we know of tons of gedolim that behaved and spoke in manner that supported zionsim and statehood.

    I will continue to note that thousands of Rizyna chasdim and tens maybe hundreds of rebas supported a statehood with many calling it a haschlata degula. Of course we have actions of so many gedlom who worked for the state of israel, and or raised Israeli flags too.

    Zionism according to many is based on torah views. Please do not let bullies tell you otherwise. Just because they make up goal posts that its a halcha that must be defended and that only certain people can defend it or they say harsh sharp words like “Undisputed” , it won’t chnage the truth. Do not get intimidated. There are strong sources of Zionism in pour torah

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2362461
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @SQUARE_ROOT,
    Hakatan will argue that there are soruces to live in the holy land but that whats againsit our torah is to govern before moshiach. This is where he can drei akup.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2362459
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    You are very busy with “sources” and sefraim. You keep on making up this nonsense goal post that we need sources. No we don’t. I bring down clear stories and ideologies. That’s enough. Its very r;evant and only twisters of the truth and lairs can make up their own goalposts. As I noted thousdnads of chasdim belived in this ideology. Their rebas fered tish and yom hatzmut and made public decllartaions. These are facts and thats enough. I do0n’t need a “source”

    Re your other point about wars, well thats silly. Not one war in israel was fought by choice. The point is that frum torah Zionism believes in politically pressuring the nations to allow us to have a homeland. Now once we are attacked after that, we have no choice but to fight. Noone is saying engage oin voluntary wars and Israel has never done that.
    (side note there are soruces such as Eim HaBanim Semeichah by Rabbi Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal. and many others but its irrelevant).

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2362269
    Chaim87
    Participant

    Further adding to this discussion is Rizyhin. For those that discount this as small compared to say Satmar, just realize that in Europe there were htousnads upon thousands of rizyna chasidim. Not that size matters. The holy rizyna had tens of grandchildren who were rebas. Its well knwon among rizyna chasdim that they supported the idea of the state of israel.

    The Holy hisytna reba was nearly 90 years old and the last grandchild of the rizyna still alive. in 1948. It was shabbos when the UN granted a statehood. Everyone knew a decision was coming and it was sholosh seudas. The reba sent his grandchild outside to find out the news. The einkel asked but the reba didn’t want o keep the radio on shaoobs. And the reba said yes cvs to leave a radio on shabbos to find out the news but avda we need to know the news. The grandchild came back that yes israel was granted a statehood. The reba smiled and said he has kabala from his holy zeida the rizyna that last one of his einklach at an old age will be zocheh to see an “hischalta degula”. The story is well known and brought down. Its also known that the Satmar reba zya went in to him to be mocheh against his pro zionsist shita but couldn’t bring himself to open his mouth next to the reba and stayed silent a whole time.

    And it wasn’t just this reba. All rizynna rebas whether the chortkava, Sadigyur, Baush, Shetfenesht etc were supportive of zionsim. Don’t start asking me but its not in a “sefer”. Thats irrelevant. There is no such rule that you need to print sefarim and this wasn’t a halacha question. (These rebas were also alot older than satmar and need not answer to him)> facts are you had thousnads of chasdim who believed in zionism. Every sihgle rizyna will tell you that. To just write them off as if they don’t count is just fake news and shameful. This was basic fundamental in rizyhin and not like a small fringe idea.

    Of course this doesn’t discredit Stamar or Brsk or R elchanon. Also holy jews. Both sides have sources from our torah

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2362015
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    My stories don’t become Irrlevant because you noted them. My stories are very relevant. When tzadikim and gedolim are pro zioniist in actions thats the torah perspective in z onsism. You don’t get to decide its not relevant with your one sided narrow minded view.

    Yes i can keep on going and there are many sources . the same rabbi Yosef who you qoute worked for the state of Israel. How funny. Imagine I qouted form Sol Lieberman who was a huge talmud chcuhem yet worked for JTS. If an entity is really totak aprikorisis and kefitra then anyone who works for them is “upgrefegt” and can’t be qouted. Yet you quote him. I do have one more posek that i have qouted on here in the past.

    However, my key point isn’t who rote sefarim and who didn’t. The key point is that your goal post that you need a “psak” or that someone has to publish a pro zionsist sefer to allow it is baloney and nonsense. You made them and the you have the nerve to discredit even those that did.

    ACTIONS are what matter since it isn’t a halcha issue. And my stories count whether you like it or not. The list of gedolim that support zionsim via actions are endless.

    Sidenote, this idea that the Stamar reba zya was the undisputed gadol and that other gedolim need to respond to his sefarim or shita is also just a total lie. yes he was a gadol and holy man, But there are lots of question on him too. He wasn’t an “Undisputed gadol” like the chazon ish.

    ZIONISM HAS STRONG ROOTS IN OUR TORAH AS PROVEN BY MANY GEDOLIM. Stop the misinformation.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361839
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow
    Look bottom line, you decided that zionsim is a “halacha” issue as if its basar vchalav and then posekim need to explain in a torahdik way why they pasken one way. In reality to those that hold its founded in our torah, its not a halacha issue that they need to explain. Its at most a hashkafa. Ypu come from this notion that its prohibited and anyone who allows it has to explain why, Who says its prohbited. last I check there is no Ramabam hlichos tznionim. There simply is no reason to issue a “psak”

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361820
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow
    Of course, real Gedolim explain their psak the Torah sources that obligate us following it.
    Nonsense that you made up. You create your own stuff to push everyone else aside. This is baloney. Real gedolim commit ACTIONS that display true torah values. Not everything is a “PSAK” especially when its haskafa and not everything needs to be “explained”. You made both these things up and the squeeze everyone else in a pickle. I won’t stand for your drei kup lies. No such notion exist. We looks at actions to expiecially in hashkafa thats not a halacha question

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361377
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions
    Halcha Headlines #463 has a PDF of all those mara makomos. Its all there

    in reply to: You wanted an insane dictator? You got him! #2361376
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @yechiell,
    To be fair, my blood boils too when people spew nonsense like saying oh he was the biggest anti Semite and evil Or that he was so corrupt just because he pardoned his son. I mean compared to trump cmon. And yes Hunter was a witchunt too. ( as was Shelly silver ah and many others)

    But I think its fair to criticize Biden and say he was both naive and too slow to address serious issues. That was his two biggest negatives that I think shaped his presidency. Naïve I mean falling far the Hamas/ Palestinian charade or better yet sympathizing with Free Palestine and believing them.

    Similarly slow to address issues: here I have large list going back to covid and supply chain shortages that he never addressed, wasn’t quick enough tto stop new spreads and stff hoisptals as winter 2022 and omricon came along,. He was warned about medicine shortages too. In the Summer of 2022, experts said that as 2023 will be a bad flu season and we will need alot of medicine as people begin to mingle. yet winter came around and we I couldn’t find tylenol and anti biotics for my child. The same with calling inflation transitionary. When it came to the war in Ukriane he was slow to address/ send weapons needed that could have stopped the russians early on.

    Those two negative traits are exactly what trump is the opposite of if you think about it. Of course being crazy and shooting from the hip like trump is dangerous too. All in all yes Biden had good intentions, and true empathy for us jews. He really did care and you can see it in his eyes. I will always admire his warm and caring nature. He was/ is a good person. But not good for what we need at this time.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361328
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    Of course the “mesiras nefesh” of Zionist soldiers does NOT at all make them holy
    Thank you for clarifying your radical extreme shita. You should be ashamed and banned from YWN. But ill address it anyhow. You miss the point. The point is you claim that one who is a zionist is automatically a kofer. And he surely isn’t holy. What i am showing you is, that people in the most horrible situation whether you agree with how they got there or not, those people are lamsa being moser nefesh to do mitzvos and learn torah despite being in such a horrible state. (I get that you say its self inflicted but thats not the point). If someone can be so ehlrlich in that situation how can you say that they are a kofer or less jewish? Its just inconcivebale that a kofer would be so moser nefesh for yiddishkiet. It in it of itself proves you wrong.

    “There is zero source for Zionism in the Torah, as mentioned. Other than people whom the gedolim recognized as deviant,”
    False you are a pathological liar. As much as you repeat the same lies I will call them out.
    1) R Kook was not devaint. the chafetz chaim walked out on people like you at the 24 convention when he was knocked. Even the famous imeri emes letter states clearly you can’t knock R Kook and it comes from his havas yisroel. The Imeri emes oppsotion wasn’t the idea of zionsim. It was because R Kook cooperated with the secular elements. Tlamidum of R kook and clise friends include R isser zlaman whose son took over R kook, R Elihsyav, the Nazir, Titz Eliezer, R shloma Zalman (The yerushalmis say that r Shloma zalaman didn’t vote because he held of mizrachi over agudah and didn’t want to mix in)
    2) The holy rizyna rebas, R shraga Feivel, punivitcha rav all commited actions supporting zionsism.
    3) There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts
    4) R Menchaim Zemba at the end was pro zionsism
    5) R Chtzakel, the steipler, R Aron Lieb all held that one should fight in the army if not learning. There are open letters and teshuvas. Again obviously not kefira

    You are entitled to say that your mesora is that zionsism is evil. But I won’t stand here and let you spread misinformation that other frum jews are less jewsih. Its very in style today, to be a hot head like you. Believe all the misiformation thats one sided that your reba or rebbe feed you. Its baloney. Ill repeat again both zionism and anti zionsism have strong roots in our torah

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361324
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    “Rav Elchonon and all the gedolim wrote”

    “Rav Elchonon ” yes “ALL” no. Thats a lie you made up. I pointed to many gedolim who held and wrote differently,
    And, again, there are many sources in the Torah that allows for forms of religious Zionism, You are lying.

    Your stories about some Rebbe making a party on some day or whatever are totally irrelevant.

    Nope its very relevant. It proves that there is a source from our torah. Actions matter. You know what else is relevant, And its not “some rebbe” The ruizyna rebas were holy people just like Satmar. No different.

    R Kook Z”l, R Elyshaiv who obviously felt there is a place because he worked for them, R shloma zalman, R Isser Zlaman Meltzer. You know whats alos releveant? Actions taken by R sharga Feivel. Punvitcha Rav and many others that were openly pro zionsim

    Sefraim written the Seridei Eish,
    During the Holocaust, Rabbi Ziemba realized the urgent need for a Jewish homeland.
    In 1942, in the Warsaw Ghetto, he publicly declared support for Zionism, saying that Jews needed their own state for survival.
    Rabbi Menachem Kasher RY in ger and close talmind of the Imeri emes

    Furthermore, we have teshivas from the steipler, R chatzkel and letters from R Aron Lieb that anyone not learning should fight in the IDF. Indeniable letters. Again that means its not kefira and forbidden.

    I could keep on going. Yes in your mind. Only R elchnaon and satmar reba are gedolim. But oo bad You have no right to make these things up. Yes all the others I mentioned are gedolim and YES ACTIONS MATTER too.

    Zionsim has a clear torah path

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361298
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow
    I will also point out that Both r Elishayv and Rabbi Yosef zl paskned during the yom kippur war that those fighting are participating in a “mlechmes mitzva”. What the means exactly or its context can be debated. But one thing is clear. The leading torah posekim did NOT believe that this was akin to sacrificing your son to the moelch. Maybe learning torah is even a bigger michems mitzva But the fact remains that those who chose to fight are doing good in the torah’s eyes based on their clear pask

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2361257
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow,
    Agree being in the IDF certainly doesn’t make one a tzadik. But lets say someone is in the IDF yet they are moser nefesh to do mitzvas and observe our torah. Are they not a tzadik? It sounds like you are saying no since they should have never joined. Therefore despite being so moser nefesh they aren’t holy? I just want to get that on record so everyone can see what radical you are. That would a yes or no. Is someone whose hands are chopped off but in the IDF who is moser nefesh to put on teflin a tzadik? yes or no?

    “Fighting wars against the non-Jews does not make someone holy. Instead, the Gemara says that doing such things causes, G-d forbid, more bloodshed.”
    So what should we have done on oct 8? Not fight back?
    Furthermore, lets just clear the air many psokim hold we don’t pasken like that gemara which is an aggaduata. Furthermore, the gemara of 3 shavous only applies to when the umas haolim (goyim) don’t attack us. It doesn’t apply when we are attacked by them. This is the torah response and yes there are gedolim who were pro zionist who answered that.

    Just to recap: There is a source in our torah for Zionism. There are lots and lots of gedolim who approve of Zionism. Of course nay gadol is anti being secular. And just so that everyone sees Mr somejewiknow says that IDF solders who are moser nefssh to learn torah, daven and do miztvas are not holy because they put themselves in that danger. You all heard it. Now the audience can decide

    in reply to: You wanted an insane dictator? You got him! #2361015
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @yechiell.

    Yes I am happy with my insane dictator after what he said yesterday about Gaza. Its insane but its so true. So you really think its feasible to rebuild Gaza in the same old way as the past? To be clear Trump isn’t proposing forceablly removing anyone nor is he saying relocate permanently. He is simply saying imagine a hurricane or wild fire hit the entire Brooklyn NY and the entire city is destroyed. Would you tell the residents to hang out in brooklyn and build tents. Or move temporarily till they rebuild stronger and better? Now we know Hamas and the Palestinians aren’t really interested in living normal lives. you can’t be logical with them. But this calls out the palestinains on their charade. I think other arab nations will now think five time sover before giving them a penny. So yes we got our insane dictator and I love him becasue he is good for jews.

    P.S. if you were intellectually honest you’d start a thread entitled the good Trump has done too. ( i don’t deny Biden has done some good)

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2360890
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    Anti zionism is not a das yachad but not ALL gedolim hold like that. You are outright lying and I won’t stand for that.

    Yes there is a source for Zionism in our Torah. 1000%.
    Yes there is a source against Zionism too.
    Both are true. That’s an undisputed fact. You are brainwashed and lying.

    Back to my other comment , do you deny that the idf Soilders mesiras nefesh made them holy Jews ? Yes or no

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2360889
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @ HaKatan
    so answer the question,
    Are you saying that all these mizrachi Soilders who we see learning bhasmada and mesarias nefesh, the ones who call R Asher Weiss crying because their hands are chopped off but they want to put on teflin; are they all not holy fine Jews? That will be a yes or no. No speeches. Answer the question. I want you on record.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2360566
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @pure yiddishkeit
    where did you get that “zionism” is the only form of the mizrachi religon? I see chaylim writing sefarim on gemara, making syumim, learning torah and davening and putting on teflin in the most harshest situations? I’d venture to say more than you or I would do. That means there is more to their religon than zionism. You made this up that all they do is preach zionisim all day.

    And the way you start by calling it “stupid zionist kefira” is a lie too. R Kook Z’l was no kofer. And the list of gedolim who supported zionsim isn’t kefira either. Its not a cancer and the overwhelming majority don’t make it their only form of religion. (maybe a few crazy hilltop youth)

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2360152
    Chaim87
    Participant

    It’s also important for the audience to think about the following . Can anyone deny that many hesder boys are fine frum Jews? Maybe even our hero’s at times? Have all seen the syuim they make while fighting in Gaza ? The davening while fighting ? The Shabbos etc? Many of us have heard R Asher Weiss cry over the questions he receives from these soilders such as one with no hands who wants to know how to best put on tefiln. I ask you all are the not Torah Jews? How can one say that there anyone who believes in Zionism is a kofer after looking at them?

    One more thing , how many reform Jews kept the Torah after 3-4 generations? How many conservatives? How many who followed shabasi tzvi ? Now how many mizrachi are frum 3rd generation?

    Again I dare anyone to deny that these hesder boys aren’t good Torah Jews. One can say it’s still not our mesora or that it’s not for charedim. But to say they are less Jews ???

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2360146
    Chaim87
    Participant

    To those reading this ;
    1) yes it’s true anti Zionism isn’t a dad yachid but there were many many others who held Zionism has roots in our Torah.
    2) There is no such rule or goal post that one needs to write or publish sefarim to refute another gadol. One can also commit actions that display their difference of opinion. And that stands just like publishing sefarim. In fact you only to publish a Sefer if you are anti Zionism. Because there is no action that you can take that displays anti Zionism other than writing a Sefer. The deeds of many pro Zionist gedolim are enough to prove that it has a source in our Torah.
    3) There are actually a nice few pro Zionist Torah publications as well. Although yes as noted in #2 there are more anti because that’s the only way to express your view

    Bottom line there are many holy gedolim pro Zionism

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2359899
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @ DaasYochid .

    It hard to play a numbers game and say whether it was “rov” or just many. Yes in reality there are 3 sides,
    1) Totally opposed to cooperating with a state even after the fact.
    2) Opposed to Zionism but once its here cooperate. (General todays and the past 50 years agudah shita)
    3) Pro Zionism and founding a state of our own but anti being secular. This had many gedolim in its side too. After the state was founded and this question was no longer relevant a large chunk of this group folded into the group #2 above (agudah) while a few went to mizrachi. Today this is no longer a discussion but many in this group that joined agudah. A prime example is the rizyna rebas who were all clearly in this group. Today Boyan, sadigyur, bahush, hystain, Shtefnesht etc are all mainstream agudah.

    So yes R Reuvain and probably R Aron too were against the idea of having a state. But for example R Aron Z”L father in law R isser Zalman was very pro Zionism and was an extremely close friend of R Kook Z”L. in fact R Aron’s brother in law took over as RY of Hesder after R Kook Z”L.

    All this is to say that all 3 sides of the debate are holy. As you note, the 4th side which is todays crazy NK is not holy.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2359858
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    Do you know where the name Torah vodaath comes from? It was a mizrachi yeshivah in Europe. Its head was Rabbi Rineas. If R Elchnon ZL was Ok with it then despite his opposition to zionsim he didn’t really feel it was kefira. Furthermore, R sharga Feivel Z’L was very zionsitic. I heard from eyewitneses that he made a bracha when israel obtained its statehood.. The holy Satmar reba zya was upset about it. If Torah vodaath is your ideal, then you have are pro zioniists.

    Of course you quote from holy sources. And to be clear if anyone would say that being anti zionist is bad or against the torah, I’d yell at them too. However, that doesn’t make pro zionsit anymore less part of our torah. There are two sides with very big tzadikim on both sides. Its like any other dispute such as litfaks vs chasdim, R yakov emdin vs R Yonasn eibshitiz etc. All sides are holy. But as R hutner use to say about Briska Rav, the torah wasn’t given on har grezim

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2359406
    Chaim87
    Participant

    anon1m0us
    Hkatan refuses to see all the hesder boys being makabel Shabbos in Gaza . The syuim they make. Listen to the shailas R Asher Weiss shlita gets from them that makes you cry. Are these reform Jews? It’s so silly narrow minded .

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2359403
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @HaKatan
    you do the same posting the same 3 gedolim who were anti Zionist. Many many were pro Zionist.

    To start with with R kook zl was a Gadol in his own right. The chafetz Chaim held him in high esteem. He walked out on the convention in 1924 when they bashmutzed him and refused to return. R Kook helped the chafetz Chaim write a Sefer after his father in law who assisted was nifter. These are hard facts.

    Even the imeri emes who penned his famous letter wrote how R kook was holy and that no one should belittle him. We also know that R kook talmidim were R elyshav and R shloma zalman.

    Adding to R kook supporters and those who held of Zionism were R isser zalman zl whose some became the head of hesder, the Nazir, r tzvi pesach frank.

    We also know that R shraga feviel made a bracha when the state was founded. The saduguyra rebe fered tish on Yom hatzmut. The hystina was openly mizrachi. The shtefenshta Reba who talmdim were the skulner and ribnitza had a picture of hertzel in study. The ponvitcha rav raised a flag every year on yom hatzmut and by the punvitich groundbreaking ceremony had all the secular Zionist mks.
    We also have a few teshuvas from very esteemed rabbonim pro the state.

    You post classic yeshivish hot headedness PR. It’s very in style to think like this today as that side won over the yeshiva world. (Maybe pun intended) . But it’s fake news and far from the truth. The truth is it was a dispute among gedolim and both have a makor in our Torah.

    P.S. re Zionists today, keep on drinking the propaganda kool aid . That everyone is out to get us. Maybe just maybe today’s Zionists are not religious and don’t get the Torah vs out there to shmad us. And they don’t want us to become irreligious by joining the army. They just want us to be similar to hesder who produce very holy Jews learning Gemara in Gaza and being moser nefesh to
    Put on teflin with two hands chapped off and on a wheel
    Chair. Is that shmad in your eyes? I get the other side and why it may not be ideal for all charedim. But to say that the Zionists only want shmad?? Think rationally and snap out of your bubble.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2358957
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @ZSK,
    You have a point but a few things.
    1) Zionism of 100 years ago was mixed to. There were many gedolim and chashuva yidden who did indeed hold of having our own land in EY even before moshaich. Mizrachi was even part of agudah at one point. No torah jew held that its an excuse to forsake our torah and become not religious. And then the question became how much to cooperate with secular forces who were using it as an excuse to say we cvs don’t need the torah. Many of the gedolilm like the imeri emes zl and others were upset at R Kook Z”L for that cooperation. They weren’t upset about his ideal that we should have a homeland in EY. But then there were other gedolim who were against both ideologies such as the Stmar reba, R Elchanon and Brisker rav zl
    2) Zionism of today. Today we shifted to a “post zionist” scoiety. Many years ago the jewish observer published an in-depth discussion about this. In that society, the modern day seculars aren’t saying oh if we have a homeland we don’t need to stay frum. And they aren’t trying to make you not frum. They are simply not religious. The only true Zionists left are the frum ones who used their mesora of their very chushuva rabbonim to continue the idea that its a mitzvah to do yishuv EY. Its almost like the torah part of zionsim is the same as 100 years ago while the secular part fell away.

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2358772
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @please and thank you
    Point well taken except on the Zionist end by definition that means you live in EY and participate in Israeli life On the other hand if you are anti zionist it should not define you. Being anti zionist should just mean you mind your own business and just don’t get involved. It doesn’t require actions like being pro zionist is. So there when you allow it to define your life its a cult. And that’s kind of the crux of my old argument. The pro zionist gedolim didn’t need to write sefarim or defend it. Their voice was heard via actions. being zionist is about actions. The anti zionists were the ones who yelled alot because betzem there are no “actions” for an anti zionist. Henceforth to be anti zionist you write sefarim and yell. Still not an excuse to let it obsesss you. Nor can I understand why its vital to be anti zionists today

    in reply to: Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox #2358228
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow,
    “the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is a refection of fundamental of Yiddishkeit.”

    That is a false statement. You are peddling your own ideals thats you made up based on your artificial goal posts. No its not a fundamental. According to some gedolim it was against the torah. According to others it was what the torah wanted. And so yes “Every individual and kehillah is entitled to their views on this matter based on their gadol”.

    Don’t you start with me who the gedolim are because we went through this and they are many. No they don ‘t need to write or publish sefarim altough there are. Their actions suffice. And yes they are gedolim too. And yes Harav Kook ZL was a tzadik yesod olim who the chafetz chaim zl held of in great esteem. You can gladly go down this route again. But I won’t stop correcting your fake news.

    Lastly, the idea that even if you believe zionsim is not founded in our torah but that its “fundamental”? Really “fundamental”? why exactly is it relevant today? In the 1940’s especially after the war you had people who bounced between satmar and mizrachi at once? he had to steer them in the right direction. But today how many satmaras or charedim become mizarchi? To say that this is like Fundamental after the state is already around for 80 years and it is what it is? It seems just more like part of being a cult to hock about zionists? Its has no relevanace.

    in reply to: daas torah and trump #2357436
    Chaim87
    Participant

    I don’t understand the premise of this question. Where does it say that you need “das torah” as it pertains to USA elections? This notion that everything you do you need das torah is a modern day invention. I don’t recall “das torah” during Bush V Gore or Clinton. (surely not earlier). Yes in EY where there are frum parties, yeshivas directly affected, and of course the broader zionsit debate, then it makes sense to say you need guidance from a tzadik as it intimately affects your judiasm. But in the USA that’s not the case. I happen to have voted for Trump and if not for israel, I would have voted for Harris. But why should das torah play a role?

    in reply to: Learning Chasidus #2357284
    Chaim87
    Participant

    commonsaychel,
    Add to your list tznuis both physical chumras and asifas,. Also, kashrus including only eating from your shochet. Then there is speaking Yiddish and living in a walled community.. And of course long davening. Todays litfish are often more chasdish than chasdim

    in reply to: Learning Chasidus #2356833
    Chaim87
    Participant

    Satmar isn’t a chasdius. I think the reba zya said that himself. Its a kehila built on the principals of R Hillel Lichtenstein aka R Hillel Kamai. The idea is to build a community that’s spilt from secular forces (neollogs) with a string sense of community culture. Lots of inner infrastructure and buildings . The key is to dress and speak like they did in Europe and not be inlfuneced by the outside. Both Satmar and Skever founded thier own city for that reason. Its not “chasdish”.
    Re Bobov, you should ask a better question. Tsanz was always into simplicity and giving out tons of tedaka to the poor. The heilga sanza ruv never went to sleep at night if there was an extra penny in his pocket not distributed to the poor. Its known that the devrai chaim was in a dispute with the holy Rizyna rebas who believed in flaunting wealth as a reba because its ,malchus and he is from dovid hamelch. (Of course as is well known the rizyna himself wore gold shoes with no heel because he didn’t want to enjoy this world. However, he felt that as a reba in public malchus is needed) So what happened to that mesora? Why fancy buildings and gold and silver by Tish? In fact, there is a story about the current lakewood skulner reba, that when he built his new BM someone came over for an important cause and really needed money. The reba gave him what they collected for the BM. When the gabbaim found out they were upset and the reba replied isn’t this for the kehila? We need it for a fancy BM before a poor person? It almost feels like Skulen who shtams from Ruzyhin switched roles with Bobov. What happened to simplicty and gving to the poor?

    in reply to: AI response to my question on Trump Lies #2356166
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @yechiell,
    Time will tell and I agree as a frum jew I took a risk. But so far Trump is better for Israel BH. I doesn’t fall for nonsense from arabs, lifted the ban on weapons sales, lifted the sanctions on settlers, signed an order to deport free Palestine immigrants etc. Most of all he got the hosttage deal through. As painful as it is to watch hamas produce their shows, all charedi gedolim and most mizrachi support it. Yes i am worried about phase 2. But I was worried about Lebanon also. And Trump isn’t making a fuss that Israel is supposed to leave but won’t leave now, We now from the last 4 years he was great. And so while yes he is a liar and immoral (plus a million other labels) as a frum jew when we are going through a pivotal moment like Oct 7 we need someone like him.

    P.S. re J6, they were crazy and trump was crazy. This baloney of stolen election is such malarkey. But it was no Insurrection. Lets not get carried away. Storming the captol isn’t an act of Insurrection. Theyw eren’t really like going to invade out govt. Just lunatics’ having fun. Most shouldn’t have been arrested. Even the frum guy who simplybocled a cops hand, thats not violence. the few that sprayed mass or punched a cop deserved it and its a shame that they were let go.

    But overall I believe ues Trump is a crook who belongs in jail. Nevertheless if it saves jewish lives and Israel, he is the right person now

    in reply to: IDF’s New Haredi Division #2355853
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @tzedikis,

    I am not sure what your anger is. All we are say is OK you can chose to never be a zionist like holy satmar reba zyabut many leading gedolim and torahdik yidden chose to be a zionist and held this is the torah way, As it pertians to charedim in the army they can indeed maintain the sweetness of torah and still fight. Its not impossible to have both. I don’t think its ideal for every charedi. And if you are a follower of someone who is against zionism then thats fine. But there should be a path for those that chose to join. they should be encouraged and respected. Its not a treifa thing. its just a diifferent opinion

    in reply to: Daas Torah and the Hostage Deal #2354073
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @mommamia22
    According to somejewiknow, even if you were moser nefesh to make kiddush fridy night while being held as hostages in some dark tunnel, if you are an IDF soilder or support R Kook you don’t count

    in reply to: Capitulation #2353805
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,

    Israel needed to fight this war for the past year so that it can destroy its infrastructure, tunnels, weapons, senior leaders and any capabilities to rearm. This was accomplished and we won that part. There was a dream that Hamas would completely disintegrate but that was a dream. It doesn’t feel like a win but lmasa there is no way Hamas can commit another Oct 7 attack anytime soon. Thus yes we won. Now whats the future plan? Hard to know. But the focus at this point needs to shift to hostages once we accomplished what we can and there is very little more we can do.

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2353011
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @eddie
    as I noted I am simplifying the math. I agree that it’s not explicit that I pay to cover the one who pays less. And yes some of that shortfall is raised via other campaigns. But at the end of the day, it’s all one pot. If he pays less I pay more. That’s how any system works.

    Re my argument that chasedi lev food and vacations shouldn’t be income because what’s the point? Well trust me those programs are worth alot more than the impact this would have on tuition.

    And leaving aside chasedi lev or free tuition’s I think we can all agree on here that govt programs are income and that ought to be a cheshbon. That’s for sure very simple

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2352718
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @Dr. Pepper
    You can’t capture every scenario but at least my argument adds fairness. Take for example your case where the mother won’t work because she will loose handouts. I think by handouts you refer to govt programs. Well such a family would be charged more for tuition under my formula. Granted it won’t capture the “not working” but it will produce the same result because it captures the net income and your argument would get captured there as well. I think some forms do ask things like do you get support do you get thus capturing housing. Does it capture the going to mechnaic vs fixing things on your own scenario? No. ia gree its not perfect but I think once you are looking at income and making a decsion based on that its silly not to call govt prgarms or free tution in another school as income.


    @amom
    , & Always_Ask_Questions,. I don’t mean to say lets look at every one of your expenses. I get there is a point of nitty gritty that makes it impossible. But if the certain basic staples are covered that very big. If you don’t like to call it net inflows, another way to label it is just income. But income includes any money you get whether its from the govt or from tips or from chasedi lev or support from others. Thats all income. (the only area that this would differ is free tuttion in another school wouldn’t be counted via just looking at income) Why isn’t receiving govt programs income? It can eqaute to $50K post tax annually to someone who is savvy.


    @nishtdayngesheft
    : That’s not fair for a tuition committee to accommodate one person over the other. That isn’t their job to do. You ask how i affects me? Simple math if you give someone who gets all these freebies a discount because their “income” is low, while really my “net income” is lower I have to pay for that. It really costs say $10K to educate a child. But someone who is a rebbe only pays lets say $7K. Then I need to pay $13K to cover that gap. (I am oversimplifying it but that’s the idea), Now what about hakars Hatov to the rebbe? Thats very nice we can start a chaesdi lev who offers scholarships to a rebbe because of their hard dedicated work just like they offer free groceries. It shouldn’t be part of a the tuition committee cheshbon. And I don’t just mean a rebbe but anyone who gets programs.

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2352321
    Chaim87
    Participant

    We are getting caught up in technicalities vs the crux of my point. The key point is that tuition committee should be looking at the net of inflows and outflows per family as it pertains to the core expenses that a family has. The core expenses are housing, health care, food, tuition and daycare costs. So that even if person A brings in $60K while Person B brings in $100K. (Brings in meaning after taxi and tips). f Person A has zero of those expenses and while Person B has all of those expenses, Person B is in a tighter spot and should receive a greater scholarship. I think this context keeps it as simple as i can make my point. There are always nuances and special considerations but you need to start with a basic formula.

    in reply to: Trump – Unconditional Discharge #2352126
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @Yserbius123
    well said and I’d think it should bother any frum yid that stands for moral values. The convictions are gotcha moments and its “crime” doesn’t bother me. But the moral aspect of what he did and that he our president is a concern. However, he seems to be better for EY and getting our hostage’s homes. That “Trumps” everything else for a frum jew

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2351515
    Chaim87
    Participant

    Thank you @flyer as I noted I refer to parsonage as a loose term. Bottom line is give it whatever label you want . Schools are allowed to give other schools money and deduct that from a staff member paycheck. It’s legal and I know countless school staff members who do it. This is a fact that it’s done

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2351219
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @nishtdayngesheft
    I apologize if a “rebbe” seemed to be the natural easiest illustration . I no means want to call them out vs anyone else. My key point is that I want committees to look at fringe benefits and not just “salary” based on income like a goy would. In other words govt programs are worth alot of money. And so are free tutions. Recveing free perks (even if its well deserved) like free chol hamoed trips is money. I want to make sure school committees realize that and look at the whole picture. This applies to anyone receiving these benefits


    @eddiee
    You seem to say that yes schools do look at things like of a family receives snap , chs or medicad or free community support. if so then yes thanks for claryfing and I hope all schools do that.

    Re Parsonage: Don’t google it. I am telling you what its called in “heimisha” circles. maybe the legal jargon is different but the idea is simple. A school pays another schools tuition and deducts from salaries pre tax. Call it what you like.


    @nishtdayngesheft
    : why shouldn’t things be strictly math? I think thats the crux of my question. Why not? assuming your formula is accurate and accounts for income and expenses? Please provide rational why it shouldn’t be all math. That’s the most fair to me

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2351192
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @Dr. Pepper,

    I just proposed a very fair formula. Net cashflows where its inflows minus outflows. Now obviously one still has to take people into account on an indvidual basis. Nebach someone can have a sick child where it cost alot to take care of him/her etc. But there is a certain avreage standard that people live on that’s what you go with. There is defintley no reason that you can’t say that one who is earning 60K but receiving 40K in programs’ is equal to the one earning 100K. Thats simple math. Its also easy to say that one who gets free tuitons really earns $8K more in salary. These aren’t so complicated.

    Parsonage is, say one is a bais yakov school teacher and earns 50K. The bais yakov can donate say $8K to a yeshiva where the teachers son goes to and now the teachers salary is only $42K. So she doesn’t have withholdings on that $8K. Its fully legal and of course I hope everyone does that.

    The tax dedcution thing is interesting that the school didn’t let

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2350974
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @nishtdayngesheft
    Ill start by saying we are discussing strictly math first. I am suggesting that a tuition committee should be equal to all with set mathematical guidelines that take into account two things, They need to take into account Net Income with net being the key and they need to take into account net expenses. Or you can boil that down to one equation (Income- expenses) and say look at “net revenue”. Now I’ll delve into your pointers
    1) If a school only offers reduced tuition to its staff or rebbe then yes of course the math is different and his net revenue is lower. of course he deserves a greater discount. Its whatever the math says.
    2) I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if in kollel or kli kodesh, its presumed that you receive a scholarship and don’t need to apply for one. I could be 100% wrong . But I still argue that the math formula assigned to calculate “Net Revenue” is flawed as I will explain in #3-5 below.

    Let me just clear the air re parsonage. Its 100% legal and CVS am I saying its wrong. Its also true that I may not get every nuance in how it works. But its surely some tax saving or it wouldn’t be used. So thats a fringe benefit that makes a rebbe’s life less costly.

    3-5) My illustration of 90K is poor example that I used for simplification but I confess that its too oversimplified. A better Illustration but a bit mathy is the following. A rebbe is earning $60K gross plus tips and private tutor gigs at $100 for 45 minutes. Lets say that amounts to 60K net after taxes too because of the add ons. Now an accountant earns $130K. After taxes and social security lets say thats $100K. So yes he earns more.

    This where I think most tuition committees stop. But its flawed Here is why. Lets look at the expense side aka the outflows of each. An accountant needs to pay for
    -food (lets say $500 a week on the low side on average including YT and todays $6 a dozen egg prices) so that’s 25K a year ( really 26 but keeping things even).
    -Health care costs: Premiums plus deductibles for employee sponsored plans including dental Roughly 12K but its mostly tax deductible so $10K.
    – Yeshiva Tuition for say 3 boys $25K
    – Babysitter/ playgroup say 1 child ($550 a month) $6K.
    – Chol Hamoed Trips – $1K (probably more but lets say that for now)
    Leaving our housing for now.

    Now a rebbe receives SNAP, WIC, Free or reduced food before YT via Chasedi Lev, Medicaid, CHS and free tuition for his boys, free sponsored chol hamoed and reduced summer vacations. So his expenses are astronomically lower. He doesn’t have food and health care and tuition expenses. If you sum up my list above it nearly $70K lower. This isn’t counting if he is on HUD too. Now maybe the rebbe doesn’t receive every one of the benefits listed above (maybe he doesn’t have 3 boys in yeshiva) and he only receives 40K worth of my list. That’s still alot lower expenses than the accountant.

    6) I am not advocating that a rebbe g-d forbid be poor. A rebbe works hard and in todays days its skill set. I know I can’t be a rebbe and connect with children like they can. Many work hard at night prepping and speaking to parents. Its more than a 9-2 job and its 6 days a week! I am not deaf to their hard work nor hkaras hatov to them. However, this is a math question I believe tuition committees should be purely mathematical calculating inflows minus outflows to see who can afford things.

    Does the tuition committee apply this formula and if no why not? Isn’t it fair?

    in reply to: IDF’s New Haredi Division #2350493
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow,
    I don’t need torah sources. You made up that goal post. ACTIONS by gedolim are my source.
    (I also did provide sources but you just don’t like them and they don’t fit into your narrow minded gaol post of vaild sources)

    You admit that R isser Zalman was a gadol . Well he was extremely close to R Kook, fully supported him and his son became leader of Hesder yeshiva with his backing. These are kinowbn facts. That’s as torah as it gets. Is he know a Kofer?

    Just to repeat again I don’t need sources. You made that up. (As I noted the anti zionist camp had to write sefarim as a means of protest. The pro zionsit didn’t need to answer to them and actions alone showed it. Stop making up your own rules. Thats not the way this works.)

    in reply to: Tuition Pricing #2350492
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @nishtdayngesheft,
    1) If its the yeshiva he teachs it’s usually free and not of his salary. So when a rebbe then goes to his daughters school and says his income is only $60K while the accountant is say $90K, one of the the many factors left out is yes your “gross” income is lower but so are your expenses. The accoutnat maybe also has 3 boys in yeshiva on top of sending to the grils school. His yeshiva costs are $25K while you the rebbes yeshiva cost are $0. So now the girls school should take that into account.
    2) Even the tuition paid to the grils school lets say the rebbes is $7K and accountant $8K. The rebbe’s 7K is paid via parsonage. Now thats not free and it means his salary is now $53K gross vs 60K gross. But the $7K is pre tax dollars compared to the accoutant where its post tax. That alone is a 25% benefit to the rebbe right there.

    in reply to: IDF’s New Haredi Division #2350314
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @somejewiknow
    r elyshav worked for Zionists as did R Yosef . You said yes . So we have a gadol that worked for Zionists. If Zionism is really sick kefira equal to the conservative movement you can’t be a gadol if you work for them. It’s impossible.

    Now R shloma zalman and R elyshav learned by R kook zl . Again if you learn by a kofer and consider him your rebbe to the point of him being mesadat kiddushin then R kook couldn’t have been a kofer. Look at his talmudim

    R isser zalman zl well he was also very close to R kook and he himself held of mizrachi. He fully supported his son who became the head of hesder yeshiva . Thanks for letting us know a gadol held of Zionism.

    We can debate the others some other time. Both R shraga fievel and R Wolfson were close to Satmar Reba and well versed in all sides . But ok let’s leave them aside

    in reply to: IDF’s New Haredi Division #2350304
    Chaim87
    Participant

    @
    somejewiknow
    That’s your best cheap shot ? You make up your own religion and goal posts and everyone else is following another religion?

    Bottom line answer the question. Was R eliyasviv a gadol in whatever twisted term you call a gadol. That would be yes or no. And if the answer is no then you are full of it . You make things up and lie and everyone else is empty. I will not stand for it and continue to call you out for this evilness of putting others down .

    Your definition of a gadol is made up by you so that you could box in only Satmar Reba and that’s all that counts. It’s comical and sad.

    Let the readers know Zionism has a strong makor in our Torah and frum religion . Many subject matter experts held of Zionism

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