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I would assume that the status quo of a person is that they are not a rodeif unless you have a valid assumption why they should be.
We have not just an assumption, we know he is a murderer who would kill again if given the chance, and he has not been vaday neutralized.
Would you say the same for a Jew?
In theory, sure, but why would they release him?
Just because the Medinah may release people before then doesn’t mean that a Yochid should kill someone.
It means he’s still a threat, so it does mean that.
Simcha613
1) Why should we assume that will change?
2) I’m not assuming that he definitely will, but it has happened, so why should I assume he won’t? You definitely can’t call him “neutralized”, although (assuming currently unarmed) he should be, if not for prisoner exchanges.
1. Meihecha teisi he won’t? Why assume he’ll do TESHUVA?
2. We’re not. Ba’asher hu shom, he’s a rotzeiach rasha who would kill a Yid in a second if given the opportunity.
3. Known terorists
Also noted: we are in agreement that he should be incarcerated for life optimally, and that’s sufficient. If not for the fact that the Israeli government is chasud meod to release him, I would agree that it would be assur to kill him.
I have a reasonable halachic suspicion that Health will try to kill me
On paper, you can try to rationalize anything as reasonable, but that doesnt make it so.
How many brands of kosher grape juice are there?
Off the top of my head, I can think of Kedem, Rashi (do they still make that?) Nature’s Own, Manischewitz/Welch’s, Hadar, and Tam Pri “grape juice beverage”.
So what “threat” are you talking about?
That he’ll do it again when released.
Are you supporting my point? The Rambam specifies who he is referring to.
Your specific point here. I don’t know about “default”, it depends on the specific din/case.
I was responding to the second discussion.
So was I (to you).
Pashut p’shat in not being adayan rodef is that he is no longer a threat. I am maintaining that under the circumstances he still is (aside from possibly being currently armed).
Karlbenmarx, probably a tinok shenishba.
By default, halacha refers to situations between Jews unless otherwise specified.
See Rambam Rotzaiach 1:1
It’s typical that many posters here are defending the Medina!
I think there’s some truth to that. I doubt anyone would consider a terrorist “neutralized” if he was in Palestinian custody. Not to equate the two, but the Israeli government has its own political motivations, and we can’t consider terrorists in their custody to be safe and no longer a rodef.
Unless the Rambam tells us what the din would be in the case of an Eino Yehudi, how could you assume they are different?
The Rambam spells out who he is referring to in hilchos rotzeach, right in halachah aleph. The burden is on you if you want to assert otherwise.
That Rodef is only when he is in the act of killing? Offen a Mishna, and Rambam Rotzach 1:7
???? ?????? ??? ????
What kind of raya is that? We are discussing whether or not he is in fact ????? ????.
Kosher grape juice requires hashgacha temidis; orange juice does not.
Also, a high percentage of the volume of orange juice is bugs, so it should be cheaper.
It is every Yid’s place to day something if it would be of benefit. Hocheiach Tochiach requires it.
Whether or not it will help depends on the circumstances, but “live and let live” is not inherently the Torah view.
I don’t think it’s typically cheaper than OJ, certainly not than apple juice. It’s certainly possible to get it at a similar price to OJ, though.
I don’t know why it wouldn’t be if he’s proven to be willing and able to do so. I also certainly wonder if such subtle chilukim would apply to einom yehudim.
If someone habitually falsely claims to be that type of doctor, does that mean he’s a pathological liar?
At one time, Welch’s made a kosher run.
Manischewitz also at one time sold grape juice.
I doubt it will be significantly cheaper than Kedem. I have often seen non Jews buying Kedem grape juice. They make an excellent grape juice and you can get it on sale for $3 for a 64oz. bottle.
First of all, ubiquitin, good job on the thread.
Briefly: MBP – My loyalty to Yiddishkeit supersedes my patriotism.
Excessive penalty – depends how excessive.
Marijuana – depends how strongly I felt about it.
Death penalty: ditto.
Gavra, Sam, so if someone is planning to kill someone and will likely have an opportunity to do so, and the only way to stop him is to kill him, you can’t kill him if he’s not currently holding a gun?
ZD, I agree with all of that, I’m just saying that your numbers are still too low, especially for rebbeim.
I don’t think our assumption about future actions of a terrorist are even remotely comparable to that of a ba bamachteres.
I think the assumption is that the judge will not have some ridiculous interpretation of the law, and that the law itself will be fair and reasonable.
Under those assumptions, even if a juror feels his interpretation is better or that he would have written the law differently, his job is to follow the judge’s interpretation, not his own, and the actual law, not his own preferred law.
Otherwise the whole jury system would be anarchistic.
Full time (full morning or afternoon) rebbeim and morahs? More than that (rebbeim by a long shot; morahs, depends on the neighborhood and her experience).
We have to assume L;chaf Zechus, but that doesn’t mean we have to believe it
I think there’s dissonance in that sentence.
Gavra, there’s a huge, obvious difference here; don’t you see it?
The ba bamachteres does not want to kill out of hate, but he’s prepared to kill (we assume) on the spur of the moment to not get caught, so once he’s out, he’s not a rodef. OTOH, there’s no difference between a terrorist’s intentions and motivations before he’s captured and after he’s released.
Sam, how do you draw the line between being dishonest and assuming favorable facts?
Did you see the video? (I didn’t.)
Is it reasonable to assume that the soldier did not know that the terrorist wasn’t dangerous?
Also, did anyone answer my question? How is there not a din rodef on any known terrorist when we know that unfortunately the Israeli government has been known to release known terrorists?
(I would tell DY though, that if I could afford one expensive vacation, I would take it AFTER spending Pesach in my own home. But that’s just me….)
If take my my fantasy budget, you have to take my fantasy lifestyle as well…
I actually did once spend (part of) Pesach in a hotel, and definitely agree that there’s no place like home.
People also go on exotic tours and cruises, buy luxury cars and homes, and eat in $400 per meal restaurants, and none of that helps clean for Pesach.
Frankly, if my budget (and lifestyle) allowed me one expensive vacation per year, why wouldn’t I do it on Pesach already?
I don’t entirely disagree with you, though.
A baalas teshuvah once spent an entire Pesach with us because she was too nervous that she couldn’t clean her apartment properly.
Alexandria, Egypt
There used to be a great library there. Also, ancient home of a large Jewish community, into the modern era, and where our 72 chachomim miraculously authored the Septuagint translation exactly the same as each other despite being locked into separate rooms by the Ceaser.
What was your old favorite thing, and can I have it now that you don’t need it any more?
this year I will be in a hotel for the entire Pesach
Oh good, now I can look down at you.
The Hotels are a unintended consequence of the massive OCD on pesach
That does happen. Probably more often, Pesach hotel vacations are a consequence of our descent into rampant gashmius.
I like coffee.
Have you tried soy milk?
Do you think they really did crack the iPhone, or did they just say that to make Apple look bad?
Mazel Tov to Syag on the upcoming bar mitzvah, and mazel tov to Little Froggie on the upcoming chasunah!
Alexandria, Egypt
There used to be a great library there. Also, ancient home of a large Jewish community, into the modern era, and where our 72 chachomim miraculously authored the Septuagint translation exactly the same as each other despite being locked into separate rooms by the Ceaser.
Your hypothetical “if Reuven intended to kill Johnny because he hated Johnny, and it just so happens that Reuven killed Johnny while Johnny was trying to kill someone else, saving the life of an innocent victim, did Reuven commit murder if he had no idea that was happening and that was not his motivation?” does not seem very related to your OP, in which it’s hard to argue that he had no idea that this was a dangerous person.
Are you asking a general question about a muttar act where the one committing thought it was assur? Or are you asking whether hatred of a murderer is actually good as a manifestation of love for the victim, in this case, ahavas Yisroel?
Fair point, 29, but I also want to mention that once the “what ifs” started, it did reach the realm of hypothetical.
As a disclaimer and clarification, I personally do not know details of the story and am talking strictly hypothetically.
What if a terrorist was about to kill someone and a soldier killed the terrorist first, but out of impure motivations – is that murder?
Is there any guarantee (or even close to it) that this terrorist wouldn’t end up being released for political reasons?
Also, I think you are working under a flawed premise, v’ein kahn makom l’ha’arich.
R’ Moshe suggests that it’s related to the halachah that one is supposed to involve oneself in hilchos Pesach thirty days before Yom Tov.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=916&st=&pgnum=269
The basic idea is that once the Pesach preparations have begun, one shouldn’t eat matzah until it is obligatory.
The halachah is that that is the day before Pesach, but various minhagim were adopted based on the preparation of learning the halachos, about which there is a machlokes whether that begins two weeks or thirty days before Pesach.
Here is their website:
Yeah, but did they find a new rav?
I don’t know if that makes it muttar, perhaps it does.
Do you have a source, or is this just the way you would like the halachah to be?
You asked if “the rabbonim” wanted people to get “plastered”. The answer is that yes, according to pashut p’shat, which is held of by some mainstream shittos, Chazal (the Gemara) want us to get extremely drunk.