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Gavra, some of the words in that post are indeed the same as the opinion you attribute to me.
Gavra, I did see a PR video for it. I don’t think it’s an alternative to kollel, I think it’s a program for high school boys who have trouble in a classroom setting. Unless there’s a different program you’re aware of. DaMoshe – any input?
And FTR, I don’t think I’ve ever said anyone should “just hold out for a shver who will support for 5-10 years”.
Also, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that YYBK was coming from the perspective of a prospective shver, not kollel yungerman.
Okay, so maybe his yungerleit are an exception because he helps out.
Does he think the entire Lakewood is one big mistake?
So does Rabbi Bender now insist that all of the members in his kollel go to school?
Goq: 🙂
Bingo!
Bump
And if you do shovel, it’s even worse…
Thanks, Goq.
ZD, so what you’re saying is that before getting married, someone should know what rent costs. I agree with you.
Someone heard it was assur to eat Pizza on Motzei Shabbos and told someone else
Yes, you did. 😉
ZD, I don’t think it’s okay for a single to stiff a landlord either. I also don’t think we have a crisis in any of our communities of families having to move for lack of rent (although I have heard of a few cases, which had absolutely nothing to do with where they lived before they got married).
Goq, I wasn’t joking.
ZD, that’s the case whether you move out before or after marriage.
No, not at all.
It probably means that PurimMashgiach was the bochur.
Goq, in the yeshivish community, most girls get married without ever having lived independently (unless you want to count a year in seminary).
In chassidish communities, it’s even more true (in fact they’re often quite dependant on their parents for a year or more after marriage).
Even in MO communities, many girls live at home until they get married.
We obviously can’t bring a raya from Yaakiv Avinu, who was closer to a malach than a human being (we also don’t have a record of how much interaction they had).
That’s not what he said.
He assumes two years, and that the cheaper hat will last for a year and a half.
OURtorah, unfortunately, Sam has (admittedly) argued on R’ Moshe, based on his own “psychological assumptions”.
FFBBT613, this is what happens in the CR. There really isn’t anything to debate here, but Sam insists on denying the obvious.
You’re also arguing with common sense.
You’re fooling yourself.
It’s pashut you’re wrong, and if you don’t accept my opinion, at least admit that you’re arguing with R’ Moshe, who didn’t find such a far fetched heter.
Again, we are not talking about a case where it’s even remotely possible to say it’s not derech chibah.
The heter of dating is indeed shver. I’ve seen it discussed and explained as an extension of assur l’kadesh isha ad sheyirenah, which would be assur in any other context. It only applies to the extent necessary, which is never a matter of years.
OURtorah, no problem, I just wanted to clarify.
Sam, are you really, with a straight face, trying to claim that the relationship described in this thread is not derech chibah? Come on.
If they’re not ready for a few years, it’s certainly assur.
That’s why I wasn’t judging the individuals.
Of course there is. A biased opinion is where you benefit from the opinion so are swayed toward that opinion. For example, if I owned the Borsalino company, I would certainly be biased and would tend to say (and probably even think) that it’s a higher quality product and a better value. As someone who wears a Borsalino, I am likely biased to say it’s a better value to justify my spending more on it.
An example of an unbiased opinion would be if you showed me two hats of equal or unknown price and quality, and asked me which one looks better (assuming I have no other interest, financial or otherwise). I don’t care in the least bit which one looks better, but I still may have an opinion.
OURtorah, I’m not sure what your point was. I wasn’t judging, just stating the obvious and explicit halacha.
Gavra, I wasn’t even discussing the kollel aspect.
Sam, sorry, you’re way off base. This is not a subtle issue, I don’t see where R’ Moshe made any psychological assumptions (even if he did, his “psychological assumptions” are based on nothing but kol haTorah kulah), left room for distinctions between communities, or, in fact said anything of practical consequence which is even a chiddush.
He seems to have only written it because there was a situation l’maaseh (which, agav, doesn’t sound like there’s any reason to believe that the fellow in question came from any particular community).
We’re talking about an extra $100-$150 or so on a hat which will last longer than the cheaper ones, and is only a once every year and a half to three years’ purchase. It’s something which is worn (when new) on Shabbos and Yom Tov, so as a nicer looking item which in the long run may only be marginally more expensive (if at all), is a very reasonable expenditure l’kavod Shabbos V’yom Tov.
You make it sound like we’re talking about custom $1000 suits, $250 shirts and ties, and $400 shoes, or going to Prime Grill twice a week.
Gimme a break.
From the OP:
I am currently at a big cross road in life- deciding between Seminary, College, & possibly marriage. It is very possible that next year I will be married
We’re talking about a possibility, and nowhere near immediate. The three years until now is water under the bridge, but from now going forward, continuing to see him is dangerous and assur.
If you’re ready to get married, get engaged and married (quickly). If not, you must stop seeing him until you are. Probably, one of you should go to Eretz Yisroel and one stay in the US.
Gavra, do Syrians have a different yetzer hora? There’s no way to rationalize a 3-4 year relationship as a necessary prerequisite to marriage. The Syrians I know, who follow halacha, do things similarly to the litvish/yeshivish: approximately 6-15 dates over a month or two.
Sorry, no. I wasn’t going to say anything, but now that you are rationalizing that it’s okay because “we are shomer”, I must bring R’ Moshe’s teshuvah, which is a davar pashut, but if you read, you’ll see why he wrote it. Having a boyfriend/girlfriend, unless for the direct and explicit purpose of getting married, is assur even when shomer negiah and yichud.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&st=&pgnum=115&hilite=
For a second I thought there was a response from “glida”.
Earlier in the thread, popa mentioned a piece from R’ Dovid Leibowitz, zt”l. I later quoted it in a different thread, so I’ll link to it here:
Their loss.
Animals?
The reality is its almost impossible to boycott German products .
Again I ask: does it have to be all or none?
FWIW, I couldn’t care less what hat someone else wears, I just think it’s ludicrous for people to be judging yeshiva bochurim negatively for preferring a nicer, better quality hat.
I just find it so odd to read so much gashmius talk from people who normally espouse the importance of ruchnius and the sheker of gashmius. And for what???? A place to talk for a couple of hours?????? Incredible!
😉
(Although I’m kidding, oomis, I am making a point. Having a conversation about something doesn’t mean it’s a priority.)
I don’t know.
Did I miss something? YYBC seemed to be judging the shirt, not the person.
From Star-K:
Kahlua (no symbol req.)
-ONLY when label states
Vitamin I