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Popa, That’s why nobody shovels in NY.
That’s was not my observation. What do people whose cars were snowed in do to get them out?
I agree in priciple to the “yashrus” argument, but I think there are two nafka minas between that argument and the “previous moral obligation” argument. Firstly, I think the level of anger shown is unjustified. Human nature is to find someone to blame for your issues, and when someone is inconvenienced, and certainly when injured, the tendency is to want to blame someone. The homeowner is the convenient and obvious target for essentially shirking what is not a true moral obligation, only an expected and proper chessed.
Also, I don’t think it’s reasonable to blame someone who is physically unable to shovel for not finding an expensive alternative. Do we really blame senior citizens and handicapped people for having their walks unshoveled? I would think not.
You should get the Daf Yomi CR. Then you might not need the hagadda and machzor.
I always wondered what the huge fascination was, and how kofrim could possibly “prove” anything from them, since they were likely written by kofrim.
I try not to, but if it means what it seems to mean, there is no bigger kefirah than that.
I honestly didn’t read the original piece, but I certainly can understand why someone could be dismayed at that phrase.
Anyhow, I mostly brought it up to show everyone that you did indeed prove yourself to be RZ. 🙂
HaLeiVi, that might indeed be the legal reasoning, but it makes no sense. If my shoveling made it less dangerous, even if it’s still a little bit dangerous, it’s not my doing.
Popa, nobody’s in a tizzy about the houses which were shoveled.
Popa, if you’re learning hilchos Shabbos, you should check out Orchos Shabbos. Fabulous sefer.
In other news, popa should know that pizza can be delivered even in Manhattan. Ive seen it.
Sure, when they’re open.
Can someone explain to me why someone whose thought process is so much more like the non frum yeshivos than the frum ones sends to a frum one? (OP’s terminology, not mine)
That was the Inyan I was referring to.
I will very shortly (that picture made me hungry).
Popa there’s obviously nobody in your Mishpacha with seminary on the Horizon. When it comes the right Zman, iy”H, you’ll be more knowledgeable about the Inyan, as Am i.
Popa, they would shovel just enough spots to fit all the cars.
ZD, listen, I really do feel very bad about what happened to you, especially now that you say the effects are still there, but it’s got nothing to do with Shabbos.
1) They should have shoveled before Shabbos
2) If they didn’t, common sense dictates not to walk there. The reason the law is as you stated earlier is because if someone did shovel, it gives the false impression that it’s safe to walk there. If it wasn’t shoveled, the owner is not subject to a lawsuit because it’s the fault of the pedestrian for not avoiding the area.
The property owner is liable for a summons not because he caused a dangerous situation. As you said, that was an act of G-d. He is liable for not providing the public access to passage. That’s very different.
price is not a good way to determine importance.
It’s certainly not the sole factor, but it just as certainly does play a role.
If I wanted to take my wife out to eat, but the babysitting would cost me $200, I wouldn’t do it.
OTOH, if I needed to pay that money to a babysitter to be able to attend my brother’s wedding, I would.
Yeah, but she thought it was hers even after all the snow had melted.
Also, mah nafshach. If there aren’t enough spots, she has no right to tell me that I can’t park in a public spot. Do I have to drive around the neighborhood until I find a spit which nobody shoveled out? If there are enough spots, as you say, then who cares anyway? Why us it worth the tircha of having to move lawn chairs?
V’chi teima it’s closer, ayin my first tayna, plus, she didn’t swork any harder just because it’s in a more convenient location.
That being said, the Rambam holds women get Schar for Limud HaTorah, so I imagine the statement of “means nothing” was only hyperbole, as she certainly gets schar.
His comment, as quoted, addressed the knowledge, not the act of learning, so it’s not a stirah.
Lishitasi, this IS the problem. You can’t have the woman bringing home the beef and still be telling her that her “role” is to support a husband in Kollel.
I don’t know what you mean “the problem”. Also, if she sees her role of breadwinner as one of allowing him to learn, it’s not a stirah to traditionally defined roles and relationship (there is a danger of this financial arrangement being perceived differently; it’s a risk/reward balance).
DY – The question as quoted from Rav Aharon says that all that counts is the husband’s learning. (“Even if a woman knows all of Shas, it means nothing. It is her husband’s learning that counts.”) Not her role in running the household, instilling Emunah and continuing the Shalsheles.
I disagree with your diyuk. I don’t think that statement, even as quoted, negates kiyum hamitzvos, his or hers, as not counting. It’s coming la’afukei from her learning (knowledge/accomplishment in learning).
some lazy slob couldn’t be bothered to shovel the space where HIS car was.
You’re lucky he didn’t shovel it out. Some people get very possesive of parking spaces which they shoveled out. Had the guy come back and seen your car there, he might have slashed your tires.
I know of a crazy lady who thinks that the parking spot she shoveled out belongs to her the entire winter.
Rocky, I read this week’s letter. I have two points on which I wish to disagree with you.
Danny Danon’s lack of religiosity doesn’t change or excuse the fact that saying “we can ultimately only rely on ourselves” is kefirah, and despite the fact that it’s sadly expected of Israeli officials, I certainly cannot blame “Mr. Keeping” for being dismayed.
Secondly, just because someone nebach isn’t frum doesn’t mean he’s not intelligent, and you really shouldn’t refer to him as “not daati”.
(I’m sure you meant “not dati”.)
I would also like to add, it is a lack of hakoras hatov to decide a person doesn’t have the right intentions when shoveling the snow in front of their property. And right intentions or not, we must have hakoras hatov to those who do shovel.
I absolutely agree with that (especially since I either shovel my sidewalk or have someone do it for me).
My issue is with those who don’t look at it as something that deserves hakaras hatov, but rather, look at someone who doesn’t shovel as a total “ferd”.
Popa, are you by any chance a law professor?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/list-the-houses-who-dont-shovel-here#post-512238
I don’t think you can decide what ZD’s intentions are.
I was using ZD as a rhetorical example, I didn’t mean him personally.
However the City can give you a ticket for not shoveling
Right. For some reason, though, nobody would get as upset at me if I got a ticket for a recycling violation.
(I know people this happend to)
So do I. I’m not arguing what the law is, I’m arguing what would be moral without the law (as I stated earlier in the thread, but you probanmvly didn’t see).
I don’t think it’s halachically considered a sakana; surely they wouldn’t allow using a snow blower (assuming a shovel wasn’t available).
That’s horrible; I remember that.
Isn’t that what made you join the cr?
Of course you don’t have to. If not for the law, you wouldn’t have to do yours either. Because without the law, it’s public property.
So you care about not getting sued. If you cared about other people not getting hurt, you’d shovel any unshoveled walks you see.
When the other side admits that I’m right.
So why don’t you care, ZD?
Ayein NYC parking code.
Okay:
I’m sure snow and ice don’t qualify as a “fixed obstruction”, so I think LBK is correct.
In Montreal, the city cleans the sidewalks. They obviously don’t feel it’s the natural obligation of the homeowner, and I don’t see why they’re wrong.
In most of Canada the sidewalk is not an easement over private property but part of public roadway.
The fact that you as a pedestrian gets some third party benefit from the city’s requirements has nothing to do with us.
Not really, the public has an easement on your sidewalk. The city’s responsibility is to protect that easement for the public.
You’ve put the wagon before the horse.
The reason in Quebec they don’t insist that the sidewalk is yours is because they don’t need to, because they clean it anyhow.
In NY, they want to have it both ways. They want the homeowner to be responsible to maintain what is essentially public property, so they use the legal mechanism of saying it’s private property with a public easement. There’s nothing inherently correct in that legal maneuver, so although I do legally need to clean the sidewalk, it remains true that it’s not inherently my responsibility, it’s governmentally mandated.
Health, why would someone appreciate advice which they think is wrong or even dangerous?
I would add that the wording of your question is also wrong, because it sounds like you’re not considering a woman who fills the role of supporting her family to have accomplished anything, which is absolutely incorrect, and possibly very insulting to the n’shei chayil who do so.
Syag l’chochma: Well, why is it not my husband’s role to inspire me in MY endeavors, both personal and professional? Be a source of inspiration or comfort for the me so I can accomplish things.
The entire premise of that question is faulty.
Hashem created this world, with certain roles that different people have to fill, and then created those people. We were placed on this world to fulfill the tafkid which He created us for. The words of the Torah help us to understand the roles that men and women were created for.
You are looking at it backwards, though. You see yourself as being entitled to your life and existence, and that your role is being imposed upon you. It’s the reverse; you have a role to fill, and Hashem gave you the completely unearned gift of a life, in order to serve Him, and thereby earn reward, by fullfilling that tafkid.
Would a Yisroel be correct to question why he wasn’t created with the tafkid of a Kohen? Would a tree be correct to question why it wasn’t created as a human being?
And yes, the feminist movement, despite some worthy accomplishments, such as equal pay for equal work, was created to define men:s and women’s roles differently. Despite the fact that the Torah world has taken some advantage of the situation by tapping into women’s ability to earn money in order to allow for the men to learn more, it’s hard not to see the negative social impact.
Can one argue that the family unit has remained as strong as it once was? I think not; clearly it has greatly suffered with women’s roles being redefined in a more masculine way.
A maamin, the sidewalk is mine? Okay, then I do not let anybody walk on it.
Now nobody has the right to complain if I don’t shovel it.
double groan
Sam and ROB, I agree with Sam that challenging or disagreeing with Chazal on divrei aggadah is kefirah. The Chazon Ish says so explicitly. I’m not sure if ROB was saying that Chazal were wrong ch’v, though, maybe he just meant that Chazal themselves would not have insisted on the shavuos being kept under certain circumstances.
Gavra, I think you’re right; I was referring to a theoretical circumstance where specific attention was being given to us, e.g. there were soldiers or policemen guarding a shul. But the default is probably different.
The capsule itself is probably gelatin based.
A maamin and jbaldy22, the question of responsibility is twofold; practically, and theoretically.
Practically, it is the homeowner’s, because it’s the law.
I sense an anger here towards negligent homeowners that suggests that there’s a feeling that it’s inherently, even were there no such law, his obligation, and this is what I question.
In Montreal, the city cleans the sidewalks. They obviously don’t feel it’s the natural obligation of the homeowner, and I don’t see why they’re wrong.
A maamin, you’re shocked at my comment and ask who should be responsible. Why do you assume that anyone is responsible? Just because it’s in front of my house, and just because jbaldy22’s wife (b’shaah tova!) has a hard time, doesn’t make it my responsibility. If it’s dangerous, then she shouldn’t go out, unless her husband precedes her with a shovel and ice chopper. Why is the snow and ice which is hindering her, being in close proximity to my house, make it my responsibility to clean? I’ll ask again; would you say the same of the snow in the street? If proximity is the reason, it should be no different.
And, FTR, I do make sure the walk in front of my home is clear, I’m just questioning the assumption that there is some type of natural obligation.
?”? ?? ??’ ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ????.
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perhaps the homeowner is Mechuyav in the Hezek once it became his job to do it
Sounds plausible to me. I don’t think it’s inherently the homeowner’s responsibility to shovel the snow on the sidewalk in front of his house any more than it’s his responsibility to plow the snow on the street in front of his house.
Rocky, the veterans here know that a subtitle under the username can only be placed there by a moderator.
So we at least know that the mods (moderators) think it’s you.
I’ll make you a deal, Syag; from now on, you’ll judge comments based on how I perceive them, and I’ll judge comments based on how you perceive them.
ROB, no, the shalosh shavuos remains a machlokes.
Sam and DaMoshe, IIRC, Hakatan keeps the terminology hashkafic, not personal. You’ll have to link to an occasion in which he did otherwise.
And if you think a hashkafic disagreement is personal, then DaMoshe is guilty of this when he talks about Satmar.
If I had time, I would link to numerous times when Hakatan has clearly stated that it’s not personal. Plus, bimchilas k’vodo, DaMoshe’s rhetoric was far more personal, directed at a specific individual.
They have a social contract to get rid of the snow
I never signed it. Besides, I’m too busy posting on YWN to shovel my stupid walk. So sue me. And next time walk down a different block.
🙂
DaMoshe, did I miss something? I never noticed Hakatan doing what you seem to have just done – make it personal.
Wilhelm’s flagship is in Williamsburg. You don’t need an appointment there, AFAIK. I’m told that nobody beats their service. They’ll make sure you have everything you need, and toivel and deliver it.
177?
Rocky, don’t mind popa_bar_abba, he’s usually harmless.
Reddit is apparently a goyish schmoozing website, and AMA stands for “ask me anything”.
If you have any questions about the CR, you can AMA.
Welcome to the CR. Although someone started this thread (that’s CR speak for “topic”) about your humor, you’ll find that it can be enjoyable to shmoize about serious topics here as well. Enjoy!
He didn’t need to break her computer. He could have just deleted her cookies (anyhow, the neighbor’s cookies were probably better).