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Anyone who could state that the wigs today are fine because the shiltei Giborim and the Rema allowed wigs that looked like natural hair (which was a big debate and too complicated to argue about on Yeshiva world properly) hundreds of years ago or even fifty years ago has blinders on-
How dare you say that about some of the biggest poskim, who, as shown above, held that the Shiltei Giborim does indeed apply to real looking wigs.
As far as the ad, that’s generated by keywords.
Also, Coke (for example) would more likely drop the symbol than become uncertified. Perhaps they would take a different certification.
Either way, the OU needs to stand up for the Torah.
ZD, sometimes principles need to come before pragmatism.
And nobody’s forcing you to accept my opinion.
But they’re causing a huge chillul Hashem, and need to be called out on it.
These women are proving counseling services, teaching classes, and overall doing things to better their community.
They were ordained and given rabbinical titles.
a decision was made by people far greater than you or I.
Sorry, not buying the “daas Torah” argument here.
There’s no machlokes about what they’re called.
He didn’t ask about standards, he asked about reliability.
Why are you repeating yourself? Should we repeat the rebuttals?
I’ll add that you’re contradicting yourself in the very same post when you write, “My point is not to argue assur/ mutar” and then quote poskim who asser.
Most people aren’t interested in being “different”.
Mashiv Haruach is not a tefilla for rain. We are “remembering” (or maybe mentioning is a better translation) HKBH’s power to bring wind and rain. See the “title” to SA: Siman KUF YUD DALED:
Just to add to ubiquitin’s answer, The mishnah and gemara in the beginning of Taanis discuss this, and we pasken to only be mazkir at the time we are shoel, and not even at the beginning of Succos, despite the fact that that’s when the judgement on rain takes place, because rain on Succos is a siman klalah.
That the fact that it is merely “remembering” (mentioning is indeed a better term) should allow us to say it even when we don’t want rain (we are praising Hashem for bringing rain at its proper time) is R’ Eliezer’s sevara, but we don’t pasken like him.
What did you have to buy her to get her to agree with you?
Fascinated by a 5 page thread largely populated by men, discussing the woman’s obligation of kissui rosh.
What’s even worse is that almost all of the teshuvos written (except for the one written by dancingmom’s chashuva rebbetzin) were written by men.
Dissect? Where do frogs come into this?
I stand by what I wrote, and I think the disclaimer was important, because I don’t necessarily think that not wearing a shaitel is going to avoid the slippery slope issue.
I know you haven’t read the whole thread, but some have seemingly argued that nobody should wear any shaitels because some shaitels are not tzniusdik.
Wait, you’re only talking about Sefardim? Why didn’t you say so?
Anyhow, FYI, there are Sefardi poskim who disagree with Chacham Ovadiah as well, and as you point out, his psak is based on his understanding of the Shiltei Giborim, which poskim bigger than Chacham Ovadiah disagreed with.
your answer to whether or not halachically permissible sheitels are accrptable was that tichels aren’t either.
No, that wasn’t my answer. I explicitly wrote:
I am not saying all shaitels are okay.
and
There’s no question in my mind that some shaitels are not tzniusdik…
I don’t see why the rest of what I wrote changes or detracts from that.
BTW, if I’m wrong about real looking shaitels being rare, that just means that there’s even less of a problem of maris ayin, and less of a problem of das Yehudis.
Why haven’t we returned to the hair covering customs that the Russian government gezeiros stopped us from continuing, now that the government gezeiros are no longer enforced against us?
If you’re a woman, and you want to, go ahead. As it is, it’s muttar l’chatchilah according to some of our biggest poskim, and R’ Moshe writes that a man cannot insist that his wife not wear a shaitel.
A bit older. How’s that relevant?
Because I think you have no idea what shaitels looked like several decades ago, and you’re lying when you say you do, just as you are about your age.
Who told you this? What makes you assume that’s reliable information?Any woman I’ve ever heard discuss it says they can tell.
As you know, there are a multitude of shittos on this issue. I presume you aren’t suggesting we disregard others.
No, you are the one of those suggesting we disregard the mainstream shittah. If a woman wants to be machmir, I have no problem with that.
?? so if you ask me if my snack is kosher I should answer that my coworkers snack isn’t kosher either?
If the entirety of my answer was that other articles of clothing could also be untzniusdik, perhaps you’d have a valid point.
Sheitels that are virtually indistinguishable from real hair, even to a maven or buki who can make such distinctions, is something that was very rare prior to several decades ago.
1) Are you also 97?
2) I’m told they’re rare today as well
3) It’s clear from R’ Moshe that there’s still no issur (and that they existed).
and if indeed the woman’s wig hadn’t looked so natural, then perhaps nobody would have presumed she wasn’t covered in the first place.
Yet, it was muttar.
are the people here that are defending the halachik right to wear sheitels also saying that there isn’t a problem with the sheitels being worn today – (specifically those more than halfway down the back, skin colored parts, falls exposing the very front hairline)?
I’ll speak for myself – I am not saying all shaitels are okay. I’m saying that the fact that a shaitel is made from real hair, and is natural looking, is not inherently a problem.
There’s no question in my mind that some shaitels are not tzniusdik, but neither is every tichel, or any other article of clothing, always tzniusdik.
Perhaps shaitels are more commonly untzniusdik; I’ll leave that for the women to comment on.
Each story I hear about a woman who is wearing such a beautifully natural wig that has stirred up some talk or rumors because she appeared as if she wasn’t covering her hair ( as in the Mishpacha magazine article last week, or as the previous poster mentioned about the woman in prewar Europe) is clearly proving the concern about a natural hair wig possibly being problematic.
Yet, the Chazon Ish didn’t say it was a problem if it looked real, and neither did R’ Moshe.
You are fooling yourself if you think you discovered a new problem which the poskim weren’t aware of.
They were aware, and some of the biggest were meikil, even l’chatchilah.
What if she makes them oatmeal?
Then the discussion of being makpid on keilim becomes relevant.
There are certainly cases were we are meikal or somach on Shitos regarding the aspect of blios when its not a Ben Yomo.
There are also cases we’re not (l’chatchilah) and cases where it is ben yomo.
I would be somach on the shitos Pri Chadash (Note, which is muttar according to everyone’s understanding)
No, we don’t pasken like the Pri Chodosh, we pasken like the Chasam Sofer.
The Emes L’Yaakov makes a flat statement differentiating keilim without offering a rational?
No, he compares it to the cheilev which is subject to a machlokes rishonim and in certain places, they didn’t eat it but weren’t makpid on keilim.
But were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that look similar to hair or were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that actually have human hair?
Both.
Some quotes from the teshuvah:
כיון שעכ”פ ניכר לנשים אין לאסור, וממילא אין לאסור גם כשלא ניכר לפעמים
כיון דידוע לכל שיש ללבוש פאה נכרית שתהיה נדמית כשערות האשה עצמה אין לאסור
You can read the whole teshuvah, which I posted above, to see that these quotes are completely in context.
One needs to consider whether Rav Moshe would have really permitted today’s wigs which are nothing like the straw of 1968. And if we do not know, we can not quote.
One needs merely to actually read the teshuvah to see that he is clearly referring to wigs which look similar to hair.
These hick towns use driving tickets as a money racket.
Like NYC does with parking tickets.
So obviously one can be a righteous woman and wear a פיאה נכרית.
Tell that to Syag/dancingmom.
do you even bother reading posts before commenting on them?
Depends how long they are. I didn’t read all of the posts you wrote as dancingmom, but I got the gist.
latest alias?
If there’s a more recent one, I haven’t caught it yet.
What are you, some kind of comedian?
Sorry, Syag, not buying the sudden pro-shaitel stance. We know you wear tichels. I have a feeling “dancingmom” is just your latest alias.
For a council seat?
Who cares?
That depends whether or not the pot was a ben yomo, and even if it was, it’s not so simple, because of nat bar nat.
In the second one (‘לב: י), it says that being makpid not to wear פאה נכרית (he is clearly referring to shaitels which look similar to real hair) is “כמעט בלא טעם”.
There are all sorts of wigs. Yes, some are not tznius, but some are fine (and I’m not talking about the short stiff wiggy ones) , and the poskim have no issue with them.
No, everyone is irritated because you endlessly repeat yourself, ignore the gedolim whose psak that it’s muttar doesn’t suit your agenda, and don’t respond to the valid points made. Being disingenuous doesn’t help either.
Even by the Rabbonim “insisting”.
Most, including the ones you hold of, aren’t insisting, or even suggesting.
GAON: You keep on going around in circles
Sure, after all, she is dancingmom….
It was so self-understood that a married woman would cover her hair in public, that even the secular women would cover their hair. See Rashi Sanhedrin 58:2 – שהיו רגילות את הנכריות שלא לצאת בראש פרוע – As is seen in history books.
You just unwittingly undermined a good deal of your argument.
Did you miss reading “former” OOTers?
Did you miss writing, “No wonder so many OOTers make their home in Brooklyn!”
Maybe.
After eating pareve food made in a fleishig pot, you don’t need to wait before eating milchig.
Butter?
No, LB, unless there’s a particular person with a severe allergy, mosquito bites are not a sakana. They’re not even considered tzaar to allow a d’rabonon to be violated, and certainly not a d’Oraisa, so you couldn’t trap or kill it on Shabbos or Yom Tov (which would probably be an issur d’rabonon because people don’t use the dead mosquitoes).
It wouldn’t be fleishig, it would be assur.
There is a halachah not to bake milchig or fleishig “pas” which actually includes cookies, cakes, and pies.
There are ways to do it that would be muttar (special shape or baking only enough for that day), but then you would have to tell them; you couldn’t just say it was a fleshig dish because they wouldn’t know to wait six hours.
It would be pretty difficult to put meat in without affecting the taste…
Pikuach nefesh?
She wrote “than looking at someone”
No she didn’t.
She did, however, subsequently write,” If you believe that the women at your local gym are dressing especially provactively, than I agree with you 100 percent but a my gym, most of the women are wearing oversized sweats and loose baggy tops that do not challenge the yetzer hora.”