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Why you think comparing the average student from the average yeshiva to the average student from an elite secular school is a fair comparison?
As I pointed out in the thread that apparently triggered this one, and as Huju suggested here, comparing public schools in districts like NYC, East Ramapo, and Lakewood to yeshiva students is disingenuous. Many of the public school students in those districts are educationally disadvanteged. For example, they come from single-parent homes, are not native speakers of English, or come from families where education is not a priority. A fairer comparison would be to high-performing suburban districts.
Why? Because you don’t like the results of an equal comparison?
There have been some, but it gets increasingly rare.
(Just realized DY’s post was earlier in this thread – so I’m talking about his question to Meno there.)
I hope ChanieE is not too insulted that you mistook her for Meno. (HT GH)
Mammele: DY: The larger the pool of insureds one (usually government/employer) pays for, the lower the price they can negotiate. When insurers have too many “cheap” customers, they try to make more money on the rest.
Okay, but she (ChanieE) said there are fewer people, which isn’t the case. As I mentioned, more people are actually insured due to employer benefits, which probably compensates for the lower per person premium.
ChanieE:Economics – that just the way insurance works: by spreading costs among more people. If only sick people buy insurance then the insurance plan will have to pay a lot, so each participant will have to pay a lot. If many people, including young, healthy people, buy a plan, the plan won’t have to pay as much per participant but all participants still get something of value. The people who get sick get their bills paid, while the people who don’t get sick have the peace of mind of knowing that in case they get sick, they will have their bills paid. Because the overall costs are borne by a larger group, the cost per participant is lower so people who are less likely to need health care are still likely to buy insurance.
But it would not be more people. If anything, if the employer is paying the premiums, every employee is being paid for, including the young healthy ones, whereas if it we’re people buying as individuals, many would opt out.
I don’t think DY was only referring to this instance when he labeled AK anti chareidi.
Correct.
DY, you are attacking a straw man.
I didn’t know straw men post on the CR.
Tying insurance to a job introduced several distortions, one of which is that it removed a huge chunk of people from the pool of potential insurance buyers.
Insurance works by spreading costs over a large group of buyers. When there are fewer people willing to buy insurance, because they are already getting tax-advantaged insurance at work, insurance prices go up.
I don’t understand that. What difference does it make who is paying for the insurance?
When I think of numerous friends that spent 3, 4, 5 years learning seriously in yeshiva, and then pursued an education (not at the same time of course), and are now serious talmidei chachamim that support their families with respectable incomes, are koveya itim latorah, give shiurim, give generously, are involved in chesed and in leadership roles in the local schools and shuls, I think, wow, these are the people that I find inspiring and that I believe will inspire my children.
It sounds really nice, and it’s true in many cases, but the reality is that someone has a much better chance of being a serious Ben Torah if he dedicated more than just 3 or 4 years to full time learning.
I didn’t ask for anecdotes, I asked for average. I believe your relatives are way above it.
I question whether it is permitted altogether to make oneself a “case” for public assistance because one followed the trend to sit in kollel
Are you familiar with R’ Moshe’s teshuvah on it?
Additionally, you must be aware that the gemora is not talking about the same type of public assistance you are.
Also, I’m curious; how long do you think the average stay in BMG kollel is?
No
It makes sense to look for a girl – if you have a boy.
4. Makes threads on the CR about him?
Regarding the quality of secular studies in yeshivas vs. public schools, I was making an apples-to-apples comparison. You certainly can’t compare the quality of education in a typical yeshiva to that in a typical NYC public school…
We do have other values, so secular education may not be the absolute best it could be, but it exceeds the average and certainly exceeds any minimum standards , so there’s no reason to exclude yeshiva provided secular education from being considered a legitimate basic expense. The fact that you mention how we value education as a reason to exclude it is somewhat ironic, don’t you think?
DY, the OP wasn’t talking about deductions from income taxes, but about calculations for eligibility for safety net programs.
Understood, but most of the things I mentioned are factored into that as well (charitable deductions was a mistake to add).
I’ll stand by my assertion that education expenses, when our paying for them saves the government money, should be deductable, and the net number when calculating benefits eligibility should factor it in.
There’s no Satmar Rebbe in France or Israel.
As far as the literal definition, it seems to mean honor.
As in “ככה יעשה לאיש אשר המלך חפץ ביקרו”.
Explain that one
Tefillin are both precious and expensive, so it works either way.
I think he’s saying there should NOT be a distinction between levels of healthcare and housing.
Whether I believe government should provide health care is totally beside the point. I actually think it should. It’s just not inherently immoral to think it’s not the government’s responsibility.
It is inherently immoral to defend acts which the Torah calls immoral.
It would be immoral for a government to legalize theft and murder as well. Actually, you mentioned murder already. You just called it abortion.
And spare me the midrash about the mabul, The Torah says the mabul came because of chamas, I’ll believe those who are so worried about another mabul coming when they spend even half as much time condemning chamas as they do about this
Nobody is celebrating chamas. Today’s morally decrepit society celebrates arayos.
And spare me the cheeseburger comparison. Goyim are allowed to eat cheeseburgers.
GH, I never said that thinking the government should provide access to healthcare is kefirah. It’s definitely not “inherently immoral” to disagree and think it’s not the government’s role, but should be left to the private sector. I would agree that preventing that access is inherently immoral. That’s a Torah value.
Dismissing the inherent immorality of the things the Torah calls immoral is probably kefirah.
B’nei Noach are obligated to enforce certain things – that’s part of the 7 mitzvos. They’re not obligated to provide free health care in an official capacity.
Substituting the word “your” with “society’s” is just plain arrogant. You’re entitled to your opinion (if it doesn’t contradict the Torah), but you’re not entitled to call it society’s.
Pretty sure Syag meant that frumteens had the other issue…
Avi, look up the term dead language before you use it so terribly incorrectly.
You come across as the Jewish version of Archie Bunker. You are so bigoted against chareidim, it’s disgusting.
Calling your baseless opinions “objective morality” is ludicrous.
Comparing your self-determined sense of morality to G-d’s is probably kefirah. Definitely idiocy.
I don’t think it’s due to their own lack of emunah, it’s just that they’re trying to instill emunah in others who may be lacking, and are trying to be subtle, because they think it will be more effective.
But not everything expensive is something we hold dear.
Ordinarily, you wouldn’t spend a lot of money on something which didn’t have value to you.
It is.
No it isn’t.
The government most certainly does regulate morality. If I think it’s moral to kill, it is still a crime.
Certain things are objectively immoral according to the Torah, even for non Jews, and until recently, were acknowledged as so by law. It’s a terrible shame, and something which angers Hashem. Chazal say that the mabul didn’t come until certain types of immorality became institutionalized.
As we follow halacha, this really has no impact on us (anymore than a statute regulating how much cheese goes into a cheeseburger).
Inapt comparison. B’nei Noach are permitted to eat cheeseburgers. They are not permitted to engage in arayos.
Also false is your assertion that it has no impact on us.
רבי הונא בשם רבי אמר: דור המבול לא נימוחו מן העולם עד שכתבו גמומסיות לזכר ולבהמה
מדרש רבה
I think even if we got “only” $6,000 per kid in vouchers (not the OP’s tax deduction), we could pretty much consider the tuition crisis solved.
From NPR: (5 year old article)
“On average, it costs $10,615 to send a kid to public school for a year. (That’s federal, state and local government spending combined.)
As the map above shows, that one number masks a huge variation. Utah spends just over $6,000 per student; New York and the District of Columbia over $18,000.”
(Unless when he said “cost of tuition” he meant the cost of the Public schools sytem proviidng our kids tuition, which is presumably less than the cost we pay to educate our children)
I don’t think that’s true. Look it up.
But Judaism is different from Catholicism. A Jew, no matter how far, is still a Jew.
But “Judaism” with it’s own self made rules is not Judaism, no matter what they call it.
No Jew, reform or otherwise, is prevented from davening at the Kosel.
They are perhaps prevented from davening in ways which violate the tenets of authentic Judaism.
Besalel, great post. Even if some wish to nitpick inconsequential details.
However a point that does deserve mention (whcih I assume is part of the argument) Is that the NYC Public schools sytem cant handle us.
You’re making the same point I am – that sending kids to private schools saves the government $ – just from a different perspective.
The nafka mina is if we did send to P.S., eventually they would build enough schools to accommodate.
why it shouldn’t be included in taxable income
Because it’s not a luxury. Lots of things are deductable – certain housing, charity, X amount per child. Asking that X amount be increased based on the amount saved the government is quite reasonable.
And given that a private school is a luxury
The part which should be government funded isn’t a luxury by anyone’s definition.
DY unless I misunderstood the OP that does not seem to be what he is asking for
Correct, the OP is asking for even less than I am, assuming won’t get what I’m asking for.
What I’m referring to is vouchers, is in place in some states, is fair, but would need a state constitutional amendment to become legal in other states.
That would open the doors to everyone without kids opting to get the money back
No, it must be used for your own child’s secular education.
And, yehudayona, if you do want to look at specific schools, the schools I send to do a good job on secular studies.
Don’t look at a couple of schools. Look at the overall numbers.
If a particular school doesn’t score well on standardized tests, let it be excluded. Public schools as well.
But the problem you will face is the very obvious argument that private education is a “luxury”
All we’re asking for is what it would have cost them for our child to be enrolled in public school. We’re not asking to be reimbursed for extras or luxuries.
So let me understand. One of the reasons why people need government help is due to our expenses (i.e. including tuition) but those very expenses that are paid by someone else should not be included in income for government subsidies?
I don’t understand.
And while you are add it, can you add food, transportation and living expenses as well
The difference is that by law everyone is entitled to education. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t be able to send to a private school for that. They do a better job on secular education than do the public schools.