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ehrlichkeit,
The Gemara also says that R’ Yehuda haNasi stopped coming to make kiddush when others found out about his appearance – he wanted it limited to his family. It says because he was humble, he didn’t want it known. Ask your son if the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a baal gaavah, that he wants people to know his spirit is there?
I don’t believe his soul is in 770. It’s in Shamayim.In some cases I agree. But in others, not so much.
Let’s look at a theoretical case – big pharma releases a medication without proper testing, using their political clout to push it through government approvals. Then it causes damage to its users, and they get sued.
If they are limited in how much they have to pay out, it won’t matter to them. Their profits will far outweigh the payouts. They need to be held accountable through punitive damages, otherwise it’s a simple cost/benefit analysis that tells them to continue pushing out bad products.
Tobacco companies would have the same issue. They’d abandon the warnings on the labels, and start advertising like crazy again, because they won’t be held accountable as they should be.Soo for small businesses, yes, there should be some type of limits. Maybe limit when there isn’t gross negligence? That might be a better option.
sechel you win the prize for Most Ridiculous Post to ever be posted in the Coffee Room!
sechel, learn basic Rashi on the Gemara in Sanhedrin. He says that the Gemara doesn’t mean Mashiach can come from the dead, it means if you think Mashiach already came.
The Rambam, in Melachim 11:3, says that Mashiach will arrive in a natural way, without miracles, similar to Bar Kochba. He further says that Mashiach will not perform any miracles, and will not resurrect the dead.sechel, I’m wondering, as per the question you asked earlier about Mashiach teaching Torah to Moshe Rabbeinu – you apparently view that as a proof that Mashiach must come from the dead, because you believe someone can’t teach Torah to someone else who is on a higher level than him.
Do you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was greater than Moshe Rabbeinu was?To whichever mod made the comment on my post, thank you for the kind words.
Avira, IIRC, it was R’ Akiva’s shiur on the tagin that Moshe couldn’t understand, and he was upset by it. Then someone asked R’ Akiva where these ideas came from, and he said it was from Moshe m’Sinai, and then Moshe felt better about it.Having people explain Torah to Malachim is easy to understand, because Torah lo bashamayim hi. In Shamayim they don’t necessarily know what the meaning behind a Gemara is, because that meaning is defined here. It’s up to us to decide what the meaning is.
Why is it so hard to think that the Melech haMashiach will teach Torah to everyone, even those who are greater than anyone around today? (That, of course, assumes that techiyas hameisim will occur at the same time as Mashiach’s arrival – I believe most do not hold that way.)
When I was in yeshiva, if a guy would be giving a chaburah, very often his Rebbe would come to hear it. When my son says a dvar Torah he learned in yeshiva, I love hearing it, even though most of the time, I’ve heard it before, and the level is far below where I am.
There are plenty of major gedolim who will listen to someone else give a shiur, even though they’re on higher levels. Learning Torah is not just about learning new things, it’s about the effort put into it. So yes, I could understand why even Moshe Rabbeinu would sit, and enjoy a shiur from someone who is alive today. It’s Torah, and nothing else really matters.I love this post, thank you
I once asked my father-in-law, who is a Rav, the following:
We say b’rshus Kohanim, because really, the kohen should lead the zimun. If someone else is leading it instead, he asks for permission. So if a kohen is eating at someone’s house, and is asked to lead the zimun, he’ll often say b’rshus baal habayis. But if the baal habayis leads, he’ll say b’rshus hakohen. So who actually has the right to lead the zimun? Is it the kohen, or the baal habayis?As an aside, when I was in yeshiva, there were some guys, who if they had eaten out, would say b’rshus baal habayis v’baalas habayis. This is wrong, because the woman is unable to lead the zimun, so you don’t need her permission.
Nice bump. I actually bought the poster a few years ago – I remember when I was young, I used to listen to my grandfather sing this in our sukkah. Now that I have the poster with the words in my sukkah, I sing it too. Sadly, my kids don’t appreciate the song, and when I start singing it, they start complaining.
I’m hopeful that one day they’ll appreciate the song.
I remember clearly that R’ Bender once told us in his weekly shmooze, “Sing the songs your zeides sang!”I haven’t seen that IMAX, but I do love aquariums! I’ve always been fascinated by life underwater. When I travel somewhere, I always try to see if there’s an aquarium I can visit, to see new things. I’ve also gone whale watching a few times, but unfortunately, did not see any whales. I did see plenty of dolphins, and a school of bluefin tuna.
Joseph, I give the RCA more credence than any statement coming from you.
CTLawyer, great post.
I am registered as a Democrat even though I tend to vote Republican. That’s because if you live in NY or NJ, having a vote in the primary is far more important than the general election in determining who will be the next representative.
The best thing for the country as a whole would be to ban political parties, and institute term limits for members of Congress. That would go a long way towards stopping the extremism from creeping into the mainstream, as well as getting rid of a lot of the corruption.Avira, again, there is a difference between revelations coming down to someone, and someone claiming that he ascended to Heaven and was able to explore there, as the Besht did. Nobody else made a claim that spreading their particular teachings would bring Mashiach. And none of the others were widely denounced by the Gedolim of their time.
The Arizal never claimed to go up to shamayim and learn with Nevi’im. The claim was that Eliyahu came and learned with him. He was not opposed by the leading Rabbonim of his time, in fact, he was widely accepted.
The mesorah that litvish have from the Gra didn’t originate with him – he learned it from his Rabbeim.
Yes, there are chassidish Rabbonim who were great talmeidi chachomim, but as I said, that’s because chassidus moved away from the teachings of the Besht.
As for my questions on Tanya, I actually asked multiple people, including some Chabad Rabbis. I never got any satisfactory answers.
I don’t think all chassidim are completely wrong in their observance, because again, they don’t follow all the Besht’s teachings. Specifically when it comes to learning Torah, they moved away from the Besht’s views, and towards the Gra’s. I had Rabbeim in yeshiva who were chassidish, who I have tremendous respect for. I’ve met Rebbes who I thought were incredible, and gave me tremendous chizzuk – in fact, one of the main reasons I became a baal tefillah is because of something a Chassidish Rebbe told me!Yserbius: As I said, Chassidus is more accepted today because they moved away from the teachings of the Besht, and back towards traditional Judaism. Rabbonim writing seforim on the Torah is more in line with traditional Judaism than the teachings of the Besht.
Avira, I asked in a different topic and didn’t get a response… what Mesorah? The Mesorah of chassidus started with the Besht. He had no Mesorah for his teachings. He didn’t get it from his father or a Rebbe. So it’s only a few hundred years old. That’s not a Mesorah.
Chabad is the closest to what the Besht originally taught. IMO, that’s why it’s so controversial. The teachings of the Besht were extremely controversial, and chassidus was only accepted over time because it moved away from most of those teachings. Since Chabad is closer than other chassidic sects, it’s viewed as more problematic.
Yserbius, you label the Tzemach Tzedek and the Tanya as “legitimate”. Why? Many of the teachings within those have no mesorah behind them, and incorporate teachings of the Besht that were radical departures from traditional Judaism.
I once wanted to see if I could at least gain an understanding of Chassidus, so I found a chavrusah, a chassidish man, to learn Tanya with. I had a number of questions on it, and didn’t hesitate to ask them. After a few weeks, he told me he didn’t feel comfortable learning with me, as I was causing him to start doubting chassidus as well.
It only reinforced my belief that if someone who learns only chassidus would actually dig deep into the traditional sources (Rishonim, early acharonim, etc.), they’d realize that there are plenty of conflicts between the two.Little I know, what Mesorah? The Besht did NOT have a Mesorah for his teachings. The entire “Mesorah” for Chassidus stems from the Besht, and is only a few hundred years old.
You can drive for Uber or Lyft, although that isn’t limited time invested., and it would require a smartphone.
Take some shifts as a cashier at your local grocery.Avira, it mentions that 4 Tannaim went up to the pardes – I don’t think it says they learned there. 3 of the 4 had terrible outcomes for going there. Do they think the Besht was greater than Tannaim? That he was able to regularly go to Shamayim?
Yes, Eliyahu taught many, but he came to them, not the other way around.
As for hearing things maachorei hapargod, that just proves my point – they couldn’t get into the “main” areas, they had to stay behind the curtain, and overhear things. On Yom Kippur we have the famous piyut, where R’ Yishmoel the Kohen Gadol went up – and he couldn’t even get to achorei hapargod. He had to ask a malach, who himself had only heard maachorei hapargod!
I can’t believe that someone from just a few hundred years ago was on a higher level than the Tannaim, went to Shamayim, received a new way to practice Judaism, and was told to share it.sechel, things like that are why I am adamantly opposed to chassidus in general. Torah was given at Har Sinai to the entire nation. One of the reasons was that so nobody could deny it. The Besht’s teachings represented a radical change from traditional Judaism. So why were they “revealed” to him and him alone? He claimed he ascended to the Heavens and learned with Achiya haShiloni. Do we have records of anyone else ever doing such a thing? Tanaim? Amoraim? No, we don’t. So why would the Besht be able to do such a thing?
BTW, you took that line out of context. Here is the full text of the letter that the Besht wrote:
“I asked the Messiah: When will you come? And he answered me: Hereby you will know, when your teachings will become known and revealed in the world, and your wellsprings will burst forth to the furthest extreme, that which I taught you and you comprehended, and they too will be able to engage in unifications and elevations as you can, and then all the husks will be removed, and it will be a time of favor and salvation. And I wondered about this, and I was greatly distressed about the great length of time: When can this be? But what I learned when I was there is three charms and three holy names. They are easily learned and explained. And I thought: It is possible that with this people my age will also be able to reach a level like mine.”Recently I received an email that was sent out to my shul’s list. A Jewish man who lived in a home had passed away. He had almost no family, just one relative. They were trying to get a minyan together for the levaya.
I went to the cemetery, and there ended up being about 20 men there, who all came out for this meis mitzvah. This was on a workday, in middle of the day. People stepped away from their jobs to do this chessed. Truly amazing!Yserbius, almost nobody follows the teachings of the Besht anymore. Chassidus as the Besht intended it is long gone.
I was told this by a Rebbe of mine, who is himself a chassid.Good old Joseph, he’ll never miss a chance to insult large numbers of Jews, even when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Joseph’s newest made-up point – that Conservative Judaism is a breakaway from MO. Sorry Joe, completely false. Conservative is actually an offshoot of Reform, from people who thought that Reform went too far. Hence the name “Conservative” – in their view, they were the more religious ones, keeping more observance than the Reform they came from.
Modern Orthodoxy was never an official movement that was founded by anyone. It was something that came organically, and the label only came in response to Chareidi Judaism.Yserbius, no, a Rebbe does not leave his responsibilities to someone else. It says “Aseh L’CHA Rav”, choose one for yourself, not that the Rebbe is chosen for you.
A Rebbe is who he is because people choose to follow him. If people choose to follow his son, that’s their decision. In the early days of chassidus, most Rebbes did not have their sons take over. It’s only become an issue more recently, when chassidic groups control vast amounts of money, that the sons would insist on taking over.
Even R’ Yoilish didn’t want to become Rebbe at first, but people insisted he do so.Lostspark: absolutely! I’ve come to the conclusion that sechel is woefully misguided, and doesn’t understand what he reads. Whether this is his fault or his teachers’ fault, I don’t know.
sechel, can you please show me a source from anyone before the Baal Shem Tov who says anything about chassidus as the Besht understood it? Anything about davening and chassidus being the best way to come to love and fear Hashem?
The learning of only Chabad seforim isn’t the only thing. I’ve been at Chabad bar mitzvahs and weddings. They make a whole ordeal out of reading the Rebbe’s letter! For those who don’t know, the Rebbe had a standard letter that he wrote wishing a mazal tov on a simcha. At Chabad smachot, as part of the ceremony, they ask everyone to rise, and then they read the letter. I was at a bar mitzvah once, at a table with non-Chabad neighbors of the family. Most of us did not stand, and the MC (it wasn’t the father of the bar mitzvah boy) got upset at us and called out our table publicly for not standing.
I though the whole thing was bizarre.Joseph, sometimes it’s not hard to figure out. A guy who is single, maybe getting older, never been on a date in his life… for his friends, it’s not difficult to realize something is going on.
This isn’t an airport. No need to announce your departure.
Joseph, I agree that nobody SHOULD be bothered by it. Sadly, there are those out there who are, and mistreat people for it.
I heard one person say that he went to his Rosh Yeshiva and tell him he had these urges, and asked for help. The RY yelled at him and called him terrible names, then kicked him out of the yeshiva.
That is the kind of attitude that just drives these people completely off.I will admit, I often eat before davening. I have a medication I have to take first thing in the morning, and if I don’t take a bite with it, it can cause horrible nausea. So I take a handful of cheerios or chex and eat it when I take the medication, then I go to daven. Obviously this is not ideal, and is only for health purposes.
My apologies for my last point – I misunderstood what SSA stood for. Once I realized, I fully agree with what was said.
I’ve been dealing with helping a relative apply for disability benefits, and I’ve seen SSA printed in letters way too much lately, referring to Social Security. I thought it meant someone living on government benefits, learning all day without working at all, relying on the government to support him, and not wanting a family so that it wouldn’t interfere with his learning.
Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.sechel, not everyone views learning chassidus as a positive. Also, quoting the Shulchan Aruch haRav to defend Chabad is like painting a target around an arrow. I don’t know of anyone other than Chabadniks that actually uses it to pasken halachos. It was written by a Chabad rebbe, so Chabadniks follow it. Almost nobody else does.
n0mesorah, no, I didn’t misunderstand. The role of the tzaddik is a key element in the original teachings of the Besht.
As for tefillin on Chol Hamoed, it’s not just the Zohar. The Gra also held that one shouldn’t wear tefillin.
Aveirah, you should read about R’ Belsky’s heter for chalav stam, which actually removes one of the issues that some had with R’ Moshe’s heter.
Mods, is a link to the OU’s site allowed? https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/Chassidus as a whole has issues with how they view the Rebbe, or as he’s called in the teachings of the Besht, the Tzaddik. He taught that the tzaddik is born without a yetzer harah, and therefore is empowered to descend into sinful situations in order to elevate others. The Tzaddik is incapable of sin. This is obviously wrong, as it says in Koheles that everyone does wrong at some point.
n0mesorah, there are many who claim that R’ Moshe once drank chalav hacompanies and when he realized, he vomited it up.
A friend of mine who was a student of R’ Dovid Feinstein zt”l once asked him if this story was true or not. R’ Dovid laughed, and said, “If my father ever threw up the milk, it’s because it was spoiled. He never threw up just because it wasn’t chalav Yisrael!”EEEE: when I was in Darchei Torah, we once had a Shabbos seudah with R’ Reisman, from the Agudah of Long Island. There was a bottle of soda on the table that was sealed, and a few boys started arguing that nobody should open it, because some held that it’s assur. R’ Reisman heard them, said “Pass me the bottle, please!” and opened it. He then passed it back, and told them to enjoy it.
jdb, where did you hear such things from? That we should celebrate “tzaddikim” who remain celibate their whole lives? What about the mitzvah of Pru u’rvu? The fact that if you don’t have children for 10 years then you can divorce your wife?
And celebrate people on SSA? Seriously? I’d love to know which “major Rabbonim” you heard this from.
A few points on this:
When the Torah uses the word Toevah in reference to the lifestyle, it only refers to men. Women have a separate issur. The main difference is that for women I don’t believe there is a death penalty, and it’s definitely not yehareg v’al yaavor.Aveirah says that being mechalel Shabbos doesn’t go against the essence of a person. True, because Shabbos isn’t something that relates to a person. But it does relate to creation. We say in Friday night’s davening that Shabbos is the tachlis of creation. The entire creation relies on Shabbos – I’d say that violating it would go against the normal fabric of things, just as homosexuality does.
The world was built on truth. I’m sure we all know it says that Emes is the foundation. Cheating in business is the opposite of that. Again, it’s something that goes against the very essence of the world and creation.
sechel, regarding the Gemara in Sanhedin, I believe Rashi explains that when it says “from the dead”, it doesn’t mean that Mashiach will be revived, it means that he already came.
In any case, if you’re going to use that Gemara, then it definitely isn’t the Rebbe – it’s Daniel!Here’s a similar question that was posted a number of years ago: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/relying-on-a-heter-of-someone-else
I actually asked my Rav about this question. He holds that a dishwasher cannot be kashered. He told me that as long as my friend has a psak from a reliable Rav, I don’t have to worry, and I can rely on the psak he received.
Read R’ Bender’s sefer on Chumash, from last week’s parsha, to see what a Rebbe at Darchei held about chalav stam. I’ve posted the story before, and it’s something everyone should know.
Aveirah, you’re missing my point. People want to accept those chumros? Fine, not a problem. But don’t start putting down those who don’t keep them. As for where my information comes from, it’s from my own observances and experiences. As for you… you know how when some people go OTD, they become the biggest antisemites? You’re the same way with MO. You decided it wasn’t for you, and left that group, and became so virulently against it that you just can’t possibly think of any good in it. Get over it!
Chaim Berlin: The point isn’t whether people always go like R’ Moshe or not. The point is that eating chalav stam is not assur, but baal tashchis is. This guy put his chumrah over an actual halachah.
There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. I don’t look at people who keep chumros as fanatics. My issue is when they expect everyone else to keep them. Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it, and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.
Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.
I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.
n0mesorah, regarding R’ Tuvia GOldstein zt”l, I was told by one of his main talmidim that while he himself held an eruv was allowed in Brooklyn, he wouldn’t pasken that way out of respect for R’ Moshe, except for very specific circumstances. He never allowed it to be used openly. The example told to me was that if someone has asthma and needs to carry an inhaler, R’ Tuvia held that it could be kept in your pocket, because it’s not visible. R’ Moshe would have held that one shouldn’t leave the house on Shabbos with it.
Neville, I’ll explain why plenty of people still identify as MO – myself included.
In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life. College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living. Not everyone believes in that. Does it mean that people are lax in their observance of halachah? Absolutely not! But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape. Chanoch l’naar al pi darko is ignored.
Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else. Chumros with no basis in halachah, with no real Rabbonim behind them – but in the yeshivish world, they end up accepted as the norm. People realize that many of these chumros are not really necessary, and don’t want to buy into a system that pushes them.
That’s partially why many don’t want to identify as yeshivish/chareidi.There are plenty of Chabadniks who do believe the Rebbe will come back as Mashiach. Look at the quote I posted earlier, from the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad Yeshiva in Cincinnati. Here it is again:
“The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.
…
Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”The article is titled “OUR POST GIMMEL TAMMUZ BOCHURIM NEED A REALITY CHECK”, by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon. You can look it up.
lakewhut, I don’t know what you mean when you say Elizabeth isn’t a thing, but they do have an Eruv, overseen by R’ Teitz.