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HaKatan: Ben Hecht didn’t read the history when he wrote Perfidy. Researchers have shown that numerous things he claimed as facts were flat out untrue. As chiefshmerel wrote, Hecht had an agenda, to attack Ben Gurion, and he did so by going through Kastner.
You also completely ignored my other post, and just kept on attacking Zionists as a whole, without differentiating between the secular and the religious. They are not the same. Get that through your thick skull.
As for the Six Day War, the fact that R’ Yaakov said Hallel Hagadol means that he recognized it as a good thing. All the other excuses (whether it’s Satmar claiming it was from the Satan, or claiming that the CIA knew it would happen) don’t matter. Besides, even if the CIA claimed it would happen – do you deny that everything is Ratzon Hashem?
People say that R’ Kook zt”l was blinded by his love for Eretz Yisrael, and made incorrect choices because of it. I say that the Satmar Rav was blinded by his hatred, and made bad choices because of it.
HaKatan, 2 points.
First, you just keep repeating yourself like a broken record, without listening to what others say. Nobody here is arguing that the secular Zionists were not good people. Personally, I agree with you about that part. Did they cause the Holocaust? I doubt it. Did they possibly contribute to many deaths? Yes. That doesn’t mean that Zionism as a whole, especially religious Zionism, is wrong.Second, if you’re going to talk about causing deaths, then let’s discuss the Satmar Rebbe, R’ Yoelish. He had a chance to save his kehilla in Europe – the Zionists offered to get them out, and bring them to Eretz Yisrael. He refused to allow them to speak in the town, saying that it was better to die than to collaborate with Zionists. Yet, he snuck out, at night, without telling anyone, to be saved by a Zionist. He abandoned his followers. Almost all of them were killed by the Nazis. He did exactly what he told his followers not to do, and did so in a cowardly fashion, sneaking out when nobody would see him.
Written by R’ Dovid Landesman, who was learning in Torah Vadaas during the Six Day War:
And then we heard the broadcast that will remain in my mind forever. Michael Elkins, the correspondent for the BBC and Newsweek, imbedded with the paratroopers led by Motta Gur, announced: “the IDF has captured the Temple Mount.” We heard his live broadcast of Rav Goren blowing shofar, of Motta Gur’s static filled message to his command post, “haKotel b’yadeunu, haKotel b’yadenu.” We heard singing, yes singing which turned out to be the soldiers themselves. Elkins described that most incredible and improbable scene: paratroopers, in the midst of battle, rushing toward a wall of stone, oblivious to the dangers around them, to the snipers and enemy soldiers, spontaneously breaking into song and dance. Elkins began to cry on the air, and we listening in Flatbush cried with him.
For as long as I live, I will never forget the expression on Rav Yaakov’s face or the sparkle in Rav Schorr’s eyes. It was as if the burden of history had been lifted from them. Rav Yaakov ran into the beis midrash and gave a bang on the amud. There was immediate silence and he said “shehechiyanu” – I do not remember if it was with shem and malchus. He then began to recite Hodu with tears streaming down his cheeks.
Let’s also not forget that during the Six Day War, when the IDF took control of the Har Habayis, R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky said Hallel in Torah Vadaas.
Many of the opponents of Zionism lived before the State of Israel was established. Some changed their views after it was established. They still opposed the secularists, but the idea of Zionism and having a Jewish state was separate.
There is a letter written by Professor Zvi Yehuda, who was a student of the Chazon Ish. In the letter (written to his daughter, and published in Tradition, Summer 1979 Issue 18.1), he writes about the conversation he personally had with the Chazon Ish regarding Israel after its founding. He says the Chazon Ish davened for the success of the State. He also says that when asked if Israel could be leading towards Mashiach coming, the Chazon Ish did not dismiss the idea – he simply said that it was too early to say, and time would tell.
R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer was a member of Chovevei Zion before the State was founded. He, along with R’ Moshe Mordechai Epstein, even helped to found a city in Israel (then part of the Ottoman Empire).The fact is, the Satmar Rav was a daas yachid in his views on Israel – he opposed a state in any form, even if it would be under religious leadership. Most Rabbonim opposed Zionism because it was run by secular Jews, who were anti-religion. Religious Zionists also oppose this, and would prefer that Israel be run according to halachah. However, almost all now recognize that once the state was founded, it is better to participate with it, and try to improve things for the frum Jews.
People like Hakatan and Joseph keep referring to the early Zionists and the harm they did. Nobody is arguing against that! Religious Zionists also mourn the fact that they did that. But they don’t allow it to change their views on having a Jewish state. IY”H one day soon, the State will be run according to halachah!
yankel berel: I heard it from numerous Rabbonim. It was also printed on YWN in their article about Ponovezh in 2020: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1854765/in-long-standing-minhag-israeli-flag-flies-from-ponevezeh-in-bnei-brak-on-yom-haatzmaut.html
R’ Ahron Soloveichik (who was a magid shiur in MTJ, then was appointed by R’ Hutner to give the highest shiur in Chaim Berlin, then at RIETS, before moving to Chicago where he was Rosh Yeshiva in Skokie before opening the Chicago branch of Brisk) also observed Tom Ha’atzmaut, and had his yeshivos say Hallel.
It should be noted that the Ponevezher Rav did do more than just raise the flag – he also had the yeshiva omit Tachanun. It was only after he passed away that this changed. R’ Shach zt”l disagreed with the opinion, and he changed the yeshiva’s minhag to say Tachanun.
YYA – you clearly don’t know how the WZO gets its funding. It doesn’t come from private donors.
Every time a property is sold/bought in Israel, there is a special tax that is paid. That tax goes to the WZO, and that is where the funding comes from.somejew: You are blinded by your hatred. Nobody is “eager to drag Rav Chaim’s name through the mud”, other than those who disagree with what he said. People have claimed he was tricked, that he was mistaken… that’s insulting R’ Chaim zt”l.
Religious Zionists recognize that salvation comes from Hashem – we just view the State of Israel as part of that. It’s definitely not an avodah zarah.
You just remind me of the old story about the person stuck in a flood. He climbs to the roof of his house, and asks Hashem to save him. A boat comes along and offers to take him to safety. He says, “No thank you, Hashem will save me – I don’t need your help!” Then a helicopter comes, and he gives the same answer. In the end, he drowns. He complains to Hashem, “Why didn’t you save me? I had such faith in You!” Hashem answers, “I sent a boat and a helicopter, why did you decline them?”There are just a few days left to vote. As is being reported on the front page of YWN, the push to oppose voting was orchestrated by the Conservative movement, to block the frum groups from getting votes. They also now showed the letters between R’ Shmuel Kaminetsky and R’ Chaim Kanievsky, where R’ Chaim said to vote.
ard: I only heard/read that R’ Scheinberg zt”l allowed classical music, not all recorded music. He held that music which brings someone to increased simcha and/or dancing would be forbidden.
This is also what I was taught growing up, and what my family followed – classical music, or even slow music which won’t lead to dancing is permitted. Fast music, even acapella, is not allowed, as it can bring someone to dance.Many poskim forbid listening to fast accapella music during sefira. R’ Belsky, notably, was very against it, and bemoaned the fact that people were lax in observing a period of aveilus, and were al says looking for ways to get around it.
Maybe I’m doing like Chabad, but my reasoning is very different.
I recognize that I SHOULD be sleeping in the sukkah, but I have a reason not to. If that reason went away, I’d be in the sukkah. Chabad won’t, because they claim it’s a minhag not to.
Do Chabad eat all meals in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres? I thought they make kiddush in the sukkah during the day, but eat the meals inside?I did some more research on the issue, and found that the exemptions for sleeping in the sukkah are not so modern.
The Mordechai on Sukkah states that most people in his area did not sleep in the Sukkah, because it was cold.
The Rema quotes the Mordechai, but rejects the reasoning of the cold – he says it’s because a man shouldn’t be with his wife in the sukkah. However, he encourages couples to have privacy within the sukkah, so they could be there.
The Taz says that if a woman wants her husband to be in the same room as her inside the house, then that is reason enough to sleep inside. The Chasam Sofer agrees withe the Taz.
I also read that R’ Moshe Feinstein did not sleep in the sukkah when he was at his own home – but he lived in an apartment building, and there was a large communal sukkah there, with no privacy. Some have reported that when he was at his daughter and son-in-law, in Monsey, he did sleep in the sukkah.In short, there are definitely those who hold that there are valid exemptions to sleeping in the sukkah. However, to say that it became a minhag not to do so is just ignorance. Even according to the opinions that there are exemptions, if those don’t apply, then one should sleep in the sukkah. So a single man, in a warm place, really has no reason at all to sleep inside.
I’ll be honest – I don’t sleep in the sukkah. When I moved to my current home, I went out into the Sukkah at night, before Yom Tov, and there was a raccoon there. I also have skunks and foxes that like to stay in my yard, and they can easily get into the sukkah.
I discussed this with my Rav, and he told me that if there are animals there that can potentially transmit diseases (all 3 animals can transmit rabies), then I definitely have reason to sleep inside the house.
I do eat in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres.
When someone says “eating in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres goes against my minhag”, that is just ridiculous. A minhag that goes against halachah is a minhag shtus, and has no validity. There may be valid reasons to sometimes not follow something (as I noted above re: sleeping in the sukkah), but claiming it’s a minhag isn’t one of them.
Maybe the next time a Chabadnik asks me if I put on tefillin, I’ll say, “It’s not my minhag to do that, and you know all about following minhagim that go against halachah!”HaLeiVi, there is a middle ground. I’m happy to have my kids say Divrei Torah, but there are 2 other things I bear in mind. First, the mitzvah is on me to tell over the story to them, not the other way around. Second, I try very hard to have the Afikomen before chatzos, and if possible, to finish the 4th cup by then too.
So I tell my kids beforehand that I want to hear what they have to say, but we do need to bear those things in mind. I tell them to keep some of their Divrei Torah for the daytime meals, and we can hear it then!
I believe my seder will be great this year. At first, I was disappointed that I wouldn’t be having guests. I invited a number of people, including some whom I believed could use a place, but didn’t get any acceptances. But just the other day, my wife found someone who needed a place, and she accepted our invitation. So now we will be having a guest at our seder!
My Rebbe, R’ Bender, always says that Simchas Yom Tov isn’t complete unless you’re sharing it with others.Joe, I have a very close relationship with R’ Bender, and communicate with him regularly. Believe me, he knows how I live my life, and he has no problems with it. R’ Bender is one of the few Gedolim today who truly believe in chanoch l’naar al pi darko, and he recognizes that the way he lives is not the best for everyone else. He encouraged me to go to college. As I said, he is well aware of pretty much everything I do. I take any advice he gives me very seriously.
Maybe he doesn’t have the same issues with Modern Orthodoxy that you do, and recognizes that it’s a perfectly fine derech of Judaism? I happen to personally know guys from Darchei whom he encouraged to go to YU for college. What do you say to that?My Rebbe, R’ Bender, says that one should make the Seder exciting for children. He says that R’ Reuvein Grozovsky used to act out the story, and especially by the makkos, he would literally get down on the floor to entertain the children by showing what the Egyptians had to deal with. R’ Bender does the same for his family (when his children were young for them, and now, for his grandchildren.)
AAQ: As I said earlier, I can believe it about others, but not with R’ Chaim zt”l. It was well known that whatever he said came from a special siyata dishmaya. He himself said that Hashem put the words in his mouth, and he just spoke them. If he said to go vote, then it’s the other Rabbonim who are missing some information.
Square Root: See Meishiv Davar 1:44, as well as HaEmek Davar, introduction to Bereishis.
somejew: The video came out 5 years ago, at the last election. It was accepted as a real video, even by major Rabbonim who opposed voting. At first, R’ Ahron Feldman withdrew his objections, and he said he was listening to R’ Chaim zt”l. However, a few days later, he came out and said that R’ Chaim had been fooled, and therefore he renewed his objection to voting.
Small One, the Netziv wrote that the Churban Bayis Sheini was because the tzaddikim and chassidim of that time suspected anyone who didn’t share their exact views of being a heretic. He says this was the sinas chinam that caused the destruction. It was widely accepted that he wrote this to criticize those who attacked religious Zionists.
Sure enough, the attacks kept coming, and the Holocaust occurred. Maybe you should listen to the Netziv, and stop the attacks.R’ Chaim Kanievsky zt”l clearly said to vote in the elections. R’ Ahron Feldman claimed that R’ Chaim was fooled, and didn’t know all the facts when he said this.
It was said by many, indeed even by R’ Chaim himself, that when he spoke, it was with a special siyata dishmaya. R’ Chaim said that Hashem put words in his mouth, and he just said them. How anyone can say that he was fooled into giving a wrong opinion is beyond me. R’ Chaim lived in a world of pure Torah, and his soul was on a higher level than anyone else’s. He was pure kedusha. Someone with that level of siyata dishmaya would not be fooled into giving a wrong psak – whatever he said would be correct.
The Rabbonim opposing this are blinded by their hatred for Zionism, and it’s led them to make baseless accusations against R’ Chaim zt”l. Woe unto them for doing so.Small one, I guess according to your definition I’m not a Zionist.
I do believe that Jews share a common homeland, language, and culture – we have Eretz Yisrael as our homeland, Hebrew as our language (real Hebrew, not Ivrit), and a culture based on Torah. But we are not like all other nations – ours was decided on and given by Hashem Himself, so we are very different.
I do NOT believe that modern Israel is the same as the old land of Eretz Yisrael. It occupies much of the same space, but it’s definitely not the same.
That said, it can definitely turn into it, and the land still has holiness to it.So basically, if you can find one time that the Rebbe sinned, then it’s proof he wasn’t a tzaddik (as defined by the Tanya).
The idea of someone having a “higher neshama” naturally doesn’t make sense. Having something that comes naturally isn’t praiseworthy – what’s worthy of recognition is when someone works on themselves, and puts the effort into changing. If someone naturally doesn’t have a yetzer hara, and isn’t tempted to sin, then what’s so great about them?
I don’t know why I allowed myself to get back into these discussions. I was always taught that you’re only supposed to give mussar to someone who is open to receiving it.
Most of us here know that Chabad is not ok, and that a lot of the modern Chabad beliefs can be considered apikorsis. There’s no need to convince these people. For the Chabadniks, they aren’t open to hearing it, so there’s no point in arguing with them. Sadly, they are lost.
I’m done with arguing with Chabadniks.R’ Bender is of the opinion that learning b’iyun is needed today to give people the geshmak in learning – it stimulates the brain more than b’kiyus does, and the majority of boys find it more enjoyable. There is a b’kiyus seder as well, so that they can still cover larger amounts of the Gemara, but the main focus is on the iyun.
The whole idea of “the tzaddik” as viewed by early chassidim is absurd.
Hold on, I know how to get the Chabadniks back in here.
Attention Chabadniks! I know a Jewish man who didn’t put on tefillin yet today!Carlebach’s Uv’nei Osah
Choson’s March from Regesh Volume 9Tuition is extremely expensive for everyone, but let’s recognize that this is also a test from Hashem.
Mori v’Rebbe, R’ Yaakov Bender shlita, wrote that he compares it to the Jews in the US in the early 20th century who were moser nefesh for Shabbos.
R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l notably said that most of the children of these people did not stay frum because the fathers would come home and say “es is shver tzu zein a Yid.” That had a huge impact on the children.
I was always taught that the money for our kids tuition is separate from the money that we’re allocated on Rosh Hashanah. On a personal note, I can say that there have been plenty of times where I didn’t think I’d be able to pay my tuition costs, but somehow, the money always ended up being available. Sometimes it means borrowing, sometimes I got an unexpected income, but somehow, it always showed up.
The one thing that I’m always extremely careful of is to never let my kids hear me complain about it – and I try not to complain at all, even not in front of my kids! When my daughter once asked me about it, because she heard someone else complaining about it, I told her, “My biggest priority is to make sure that my children get a good Jewish education. If that means I don’t go on vacations, and don’t have a fancy car, that’s fine. It’s my greatest pleasure to pay tuition so that you can learn how to be a good Jew!”
I hope that my children get that same view, and then one day pass it along to the families that they will IY”H build.Ex-CTLawyer: Given that the Constitution does NOT give the President the ability to set policy on immigration, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts around DACA. This was implemented via Executive Order by Obama, and it directly contradicts current US law. Do you think it’s unconstitutional?
addict, absolutely not. A restaurant is a business, and exists to make a profit. If the owner wants to have a specific clientele, and a certain atmosphere in the restaurant, he can do so. A person doesn’t have to eat in a restaurant – it’s a luxury, and a person can easily do without it.
When it comes to a shul, it exists to help the people, not its leadership. It is a place for people to daven. Stopping someone from davening with a minyan goes against what a shul stands for.Joe: R’ Zilberstein said that for a yeshiva bachur, who regularly wears a hat and jacket to davening, it’s better to daven b’yichidus wtih a hat and jacket. For someone who doesn’t wear a hat regularly, he doesn’t apply this. Perhaps R’ Chaim’s opinion is specifically for someone who regularly wears a hat? Then you also run into the question of, what if the person doesn’t have a hat available, and wouldn’t be able to daven b’yichidus with a hat either?
R’ Shlomo Zalman disagreed with R’ Chaim, and held that it’s better to daven with a minyan. When it comes to an issue like this, where one person’s davening has no effect on someone else’s, you have no right to impose the opinion you may follow on someone else, who also has a valid psak.
A shul has no right to ban someone just because they’re not wearing a hat and/or jacket.All the examples given of when do daven b’yichidus are either as a b’dieved, or if someone is already engaged in a different mitzvah, or to avoid bothering others (such as on a plane.) You know what isn’t listed? When someone doesn’t have a hat and jacket…
Joe, where does R’ Moshe say that? As far as I know, there is not a ninth chelek of Igros Moshe on Orech Chaim.
The Mishna Berurah (90:28) says a man has an obligation to daven with a minyan.
I believe R’ Moshe wrote that davening with a minyan is a chiyuv d’Rabbanan. I’ll try to find the exact source.
common: Do you really not see a difference? There is no chiyuv to have liquor at a kiddush. There is a chiyuv to daven with a minyan.
Could Be: you left out part of the story. In Ponovezh they didn’t say Tachnun on Yom Ha’atzmaut either, and the Rav said that he does like Ben Gurion – no Tachnun and no Hallel. When the Rav passed away, the minhag was changed.
There were similarities to both DL and chareidim, but I think the gedolim of the past were closer to DL.
Many Rabbonim had jobs to support themselves, and didn’t just learn the whole day.
R’ Akiva Eiger wanted to arrange to bring a korbon Pesach, and actually asked the Chasam Sofer to speak to the ruler of Yerushalayim and request permission. That’s definitely a position that is closer to DL than to chareidi. It also shows that he held that one could go on the Temple Mount.
The Rabbonim then held by the halachah, and didn’t implement chumros on everything.Square Root, there was an interview with R’ Aaron Rakeffet-Rothkoff, where he spoke about that. Here are his words: “Today we all wear uniforms. What is the concept of wearing a uniform? What is chassidus all about? It’s beautiful. You have a social order, you build a wall around yourself . It’s a way of protecting yourself from outside influence. My generation didn’t need it. When we made a commitment, we made a commitment. That’s what I meant.
But if a black hat will keep you frum in America, you should wear two black hats, not just one. To me, being a Torah Jew is the most important thing in the world .
But when all is said and done, the chassidim conquered America. The Litvakim lost. In the Litvishe yeshivas no one dressed the same. When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler.
Even the old mashgiach, Reb Nosson Wachtfogel, wouldn’t dare wear a black hat. No one wore black pants and white shirts. It was unheard of. Everyone dressed different and stylish.”
The interviewer asked, “So you see the different mode of dress as a sign that chassidim have ‘conquered America’?”
He replied, “More than that. We think like them. There’s da’as Torah. Bachurim worship the ground their rosh yeshiva walks on. That didn’t exist when I grew up. When I grew up the roshei yeshiva were mortals. There was no da’as Torah. You could argue with them. But who ever argued with a chassidic rebbe?”
The V’yalipoler Rav, R’ Frankel, has a son who has a shul in Brooklyn. I had relatives who lived nearby the shul, so I davened there quite a few times.
One Shabbos, the gabbai (who was a friend of my relative) asked me to daven Kabbalas Shabbos for the amud, and I did so. R’ Frankel gave me a heart yasher koach when davening finished.
The next time I visited, there was a change in the shul – the gabbai wasn’t davening there anymore, and there was a new gabbai. He came over to me, and said, “The Rav specifically asked that you go daven for the amud!” This occurred many more times – he had no problem asking me, without a black hat, wearing a colored knit kippah, to daven for the amud.Gadolhadorah: one can’t simply start a new mesorah. They were passed down from parent to child and Rebbe to student, and go all the way back to Moshe Rabbeinu. The reason some groups have different ways of doing things can be explained in various ways:
– There are opinions that each shevet had it’s own mehalech – maybe the different minhagim now are based on those?
– Sometimes different students could understand their Rebbe in different ways, and then there was a difference in how they practiced.Chassidus did not have a mesorah. The Besht claimed that he ascended to Heaven, and Achiyah haShiloni taught it to him. There were many radical changes to traditional Judaism in the Besht’s teachings.
Joe, that’s just plain not true. Don’t make things up. As an example, look at pictures of R’ Shneur Kotler as a young man (there’s a famous one from when he was in the Chevron Yeshiva). His clothing was the same as was commonly worn by most people (non-Jews) during that period.
Neville, AFAIK, Sefardim say tachanun most of the time. It’s Chassidim who don’t. Davening nusach s’fard is very different than being a Sefardi.
As far as mesorah, Chassidim don’t have a real Mesorah, because it only dates back a few hundred years.Neville, I don’t see any “silly” arguments. The fact is that the Mishna Berurah specified that respectful dress is based on the time and place, and it changes. He wrote that in his time and place, a hat is considered respectful. Given that in the US, wearing a hat is considered disrespectful in some cases (such as when in a courtroom, or when the National Anthem is played), I’d say that it may not apply anymore.
R’ Bender has said that a hat and jacket represent the uniform of a yeshiva bochur (or someone who considers themselves a member of that group/system, including adults.) He never once told me that it’s a requirement for davening – in fact, I’ve davened for the amud at some Darchei alumni events that were not held at the yeshiva, and did not wear a hat. I was not a chiyuv, but yet I was asked to lead the davening. R’ Bender had no issue with it.
I don’t consider myself a member of the yeshivish community, so wouldn’t it be dishonest to portray myself as such?Neville: The Pale of Settlement was a section in Russia where Jews were allowed to live. Outside that area, Jews were not allowed to establish a permanent residency (although there were some exceptions).
Regarding Tachanun: non-chassidim generally stick to following the Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Berurah when it comes to the days we say or don’t say Tachanun. Days generally aren’t added to the list, and not for a yartzeit. The Shulchan Aruch doesn’t list the 7th of Adar as a day to skip Tachanun, and that is the yartzeit of Moshe Rabbeinu, so why would it be skipped for anyone else?
As for not saying Tachanun this week, the Sharei Teshuva in 131:7 brings down that there is a minhag not to say Tachanun until after Rosh Chodesh, with 2 reasons given: first, because the month is filled with Moadim, so we don’t say it through the end of the month. Second, since the month began with “inuy”, it is fitting for it to go out with simcha.