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What could “leka darka achrina” mean? Isn’t the world round? Aren’t there boats? Two possible answers:
1. The gemara held (that reb chiya bar abba held) the world was flat;
2. It means a path of equal or substantially similar inconvenience.
Answer “2.” is much better, agreed. It does negate 95% of what people try to learn out of the gemara though…the world could always be flat…
“High standards” never turn people off. The problem is that people confuse low standards of fashion sense with the halachos of tznius.
If the “halacha” taught would have high standards of clarity and sources, it wouldn’t turn as many people off.
There are two things, self-esteem and not giving up. Self esteem, for the most part, is the recognition that you are inherently valuable. With or without successful dating, with or without bitachon, and with or without finding the right person.
Bitachon is about trusting hashem (emuna is belief). One can philosophically question whether one’s preconceived ideal results should figure into their bitachon. I believe that they should, particularly when one has a desire based on what they perceive to be a spiritual goal. Getting married falls into that category.
Communication with God and acceptance of His judgment are also a big part of this equation. God is purely good and His actions are purely good – whether you see that or not. But you can ask Him to change things, particularly if there’s an element of His sake involved (like Chana’s prayer).
Bottom line- self esteem does not equal the belief that you WILL get married. It equals the belief that you ARE important. As you ARE. Getting married is good. God is perfect.
May you merit to see the good in things – particularly yourself – throughout the rest of your life.
To revive this interesting and informative older thread: using one narcissism to justify another makes a little bit of sense, but more sense would be to have no narcissism at all.
Grandparents are not obligated to support their adult children. Adult children are not obligated to let themselves be controlled by their parents- EVEN if it involves the name of their grandparents (surprise!).
However, happy, healthy, family members will often consider the desires of other happy, healthy, family members to be important to them. When the members who have the desires are not happy or healthy, I think the importance to the other members go down.
Someone uninformed could come to the decision that readers here tend not to vaccinate based on the ignorant (and worse) comments. I believe it is a flawed sample. Someone probably forwarded around the article to bring these people to comment.
Bottom line: the trained people analyzed and concluded that the benefits greatly outweigh the risks. The untrained people launch ad hominem attacks on the trained people. The stupid people get confused.
The question is regarding solutions. Ideas?
CA- one can differentiate your case by pointing out that the two testimonies aren’t inherently contradictory (bichlal masayim maneh, and there could be two seperate chovos).
When was there a psak issued?
PBA: IDK what I’d respond but I’d consider it my greatest responsibility to distance myself from those life threatening words.
Semantics aside, the presumed issues are: 1. Is shnaim mikra a chiyuv? and 2. Assuming it is, does noncompliance with the chiyuv pass the mysterious threshold of “aveirah”?
The first issue is pretty much straightforward. Despite all the cute diyukim above, the sh”a paskens that it is a chiyuv. As far as the second question, it is nearly impossible to answer without further detail, and is mostly a question of assumptions and semantics.
The sufficiency of the nemanus of a shliach saying befanai nechtav comes from the concepts of “mishum iguna” and “meidak dayak,” of which the latter would either supersede or prevent the husband from contradicting the shliach (if my memory from many years ago serves correctly). According to those that say that should the husband contradict the shliach he would win, one could question whether that would apply to someone else as well. I think it’s popular “reid” but who knows.
So marbeh and mam’it are referring to sleeping?!! Obviously, the rem’a is conceding that he is offering a way out, a heter, from the chiyuv of rava to drink.
popa is definitely a zeeskite. But Lior is really joseph. I mean it. And I’m me. I guess insignificant. Vashti was a das yachid. she really should have gone to the party. Maybe she was too worried about pritzus.
Lior is Joseph! Mods, you can’t say I didn’t call it. Twice. (Although mods didn’t let one of them through.)
PACER costs: An access fee of $0.10 per page or $2.40 per document with an audio attachment.
IDK if the court clerk will or can do what you are requesting. Personally I wouldn’t bother unless very important.
NY Supreme Court, NY county is the state trial level court in nyc. Kings county in brooklyn. SDNY federal court in nyc. EDNY in brooklyn. Fed courts all use pacer but may have different protocols as to how they update their files. Nearly all this info and more is available online if you look. Start with the court website. SCROLL is the acronym i believe (al for ny county). There’s also something called webcivil and webcrims for many state counties in ny. Good luck.
PACER should give you most of what you want for a nominal fee per page. It’s on the court’s (district of nj)website. If it is a high profile case about which you curious you can try using google search terms creatively to see if someone else attached it to a blog or something.
District?
Most courts have websites which make some things freely available. There are few uniform policies among the districts and circuits and fewer between the states. So in answer to your question: it depends what you are trying to get. It may not be “publicly and freely available.” Asking someone knowledgeable for specific help is a good place to start.
In this case it doesn’t seem that there was any workplace issue. Anyone who has a boss that isn’t frum could feel the same way: “my boss doesn’t wear a yarmulka and is therefore hostile to frumkeit.”
Why does it affect your work? In other words: how is it in any way relevant that this guy is your boss?
The chiluk is only relevant lechumra.
I have no source offhand. Thus my conclusion of chumra is unsubstantiated. I am being consistent with my position on mixed gyms.
I have to look at reb moshes tshuva again. Haven’t seen it in a while. Not offhand. And yes, that means that so far, if this conversation implies anything, it implies no issur (and ask a lor for practical guidance).
Dy: perhaps if it isn’t maachilo beyadayim. For example if one hosts one who isn’t religious at a wedding and they don’t bentch. If you had no intent there’s no issur as you had no control over the assur part of the behavior people have choices. However, if your purpose in inviting this person is so that he won’t bentch, I’d think you are over. No?
I don’t assume that intent is necessary. I did assume that intent is sufficient. The reason for my assumption probably has to do with how the words of the posuk are phrased. “Lifnei iver” always makes me picture something like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown-
a deliberate act of cruelty. It just seems to be the penultimate way of causing another to sin. It’s hard to imagine that the guy who deliberately e.g. puts treif candies out at a kiddush isn’t over even if no one eats. Mainly a feeling. You disagree?
Lior: I don’t understand your question. Is it okay to wear a mini skirt? I offered no halakhic opinion.
Any act by a female with the intent of causing ossur thoughts by men would likely be lifnei iver (perhaps even if no such thoughts occur). If the intent is not there it would likely depend on the degree of certainty and control as to whether the assur thoughts would occur as per societal norms.
These are my preliminary thoughts, and I welcome discussion focused on the process I used to arrive at my conclusion. Disagreeing with my conclusion because it is “obviously” wrong will get us nowhere.
How? By taking control over your actions. Why? At least because God said so. Do they deserve respect? Not your question but nearly certainly. All humans deserve respect – even those that haven’t enabled your existence.
Lol. Finally when the tables are turned it’s insulting. Otherwise its just ahavas chinam, right? Being that men are obligated to work to support their family, and being that it’s usually the smart thing to do, at least my insults come from a place of relative truth.
I think I was misunderstood. I was primarily trying to point out the difference between factual occurrences and halachic psak. If halacha (hypothetically) says that every women may not go out in the street wearing any clothing that does not guarantee complete coverage in any circumstance, it is still up to the individual to determine whether indeed that coverage is happening. “4 inches” or 17 inches notwithstanding.
The lesser point I was trying to bring up is what does halacha say regarding women dressing? I read through oz vehadar levusha (which seems to be the only recent “scholarly” quasi attempt at defining the rules)and found it nearly devoid of persuasive halakhic authority on the exact limits. It is full of emotional rhetoric and while perhaps inspiring to some, I feel strongly that it does more harm than good.
Some halachos of tznius are flexible depending on the minhag of the place and a few are not. Which are which? I’ve seen this discussed before here and elsewhere, and I’m bringing it up because instead of everyone announcing whatever plops into their head about how others should dress, shouldn’t they learn and know something first?
Lior-obviously, when a person keeps saying “obviously” without it being obvious, the person has lost the argument. 85% no, but 99.9% yes? If the issur is one of lifnei iver how far must one go crazy? Is this maachilo beyadayim? Why aren’t veils required at all times for the few people who will have bad thoughts? Lifnei iver could only restrict a person so much… What other issurim are there?
“Important contemporary poskim” in consultation with “experts” came to a vague factual conclusion? Ok. Imho everyone is free to come to their own factual conclusions about their own legs. Now where’s the halacha that says that “covered in any position” is the appropriate measure?
If someone works for a living and can’t get their child into a school for that reason, I’d think they’d be thrilled. Why would they want their child to be the second class citizen of a backwards school? The problem in Lakewood seems to be that people who have their heads on straight buy into the backwards’ definition of elite. The schools that are “willing” to accept the elite children are the elite schools. Period.
In this context elite means the children of the more responsible people with the better hashkafos. Probably brighter genes too, on average. Not saying that there aren’t good kids who grow up in a kollel home, just on average. People should not let the backwards people determine eliteness.
I’d like to differentiate between an informed person who declines a flu shot (or the like), and the myriads of uninformed, misguided, stupid, and abusive parents who cause their own and other children’s deaths by declining vaccination.
There should be a separate forum to discuss VM’s points which should only be accessible to those who vaccinate their children against the important deadly diseases.
All I ask of my pediatrician is to treat my child as he would treat his own. And I believe he does.
Lior: before or after you learned the tshuva? Cheeseburgers are inherently assur. Per the torah. Going places where there are women is not.
DY did u leave out Igros 3 on purpose? Lol.
Mw13: I think I founded my rhetoric quite well, logically.
I looked at Reb Moshe over shabbos. E”H-A-56. He goes through the sugya quite well. I would call it irresponsible to say that according to Reb Moshe it’s assur.
If someone were to go through that tshuva and come back and say I’m learning it wrong,that’s one thing. If not, don’t offer ignorant opinions.
Again, no one is saying “muttar”. Just stop saying “assur”. It isn’t always.
I didn’t notice anyone saying “it’s fine.” I did notice a lot of people saying it’s “assur.”
Reb Moshe’s tshuva regarding mixed beaches for health should enlighten you that it isn’t so simple. It isn’t a mitzva to asser something that isn’t assur. If by fixing “pirtza”s you mean espousing your “own feeling” at the expense of halacha or “Gods feeling” you think that is righteous?
DY was attempting to make a halakhic argument that imho was insufficient to prove issur in many circumstances. I can accept this. He feels he proved something. But where do others come off spouting rhetoric? You don’t want to go? Don’t go. Is it assur? In some cases, likely. Is it your job to publicly share your unfounded feelings? Only if you want to look like a fool in my eyes. You likely don’t care. I think we have come to an impasse.
Oyyoyoy- who says they aren’t okay? Why do you consider it incumbent upon yourself to make that judgment?
DY: “…mainstream frum yidden are careful.” I’d add the word in-town to that.
For the tenth time: my argument was not practical.
froggie: you clearly are fixated on your misunderstanding of what I said in re mixed gyms. From a logical perspective one must build from ground zero. From a practical perspective one must be cautious and use common sense. I was coming from a logical perspective, discussing theory. Further, I requested sources numerous times before suggesting that if the thread implied anything it implied heter. Emphasis on the word if.
An aside counter to your absurd argument: I think your breathing is assur. Stop! How dare you play around with such serious issurim. Everything is assur until proven muttar. Your breathing is like stealing and cheeseburgers. Because it is.
DY: you keep saying ??? ??? ???? ??????. You are being maarich on everything but your reasoning.
I asked for the source for swimming because Lior, without giving a reason, said gym is ossur, just like swimming. I wanted to establish that saying something is ossur without a reason is foolish, and saying something is ossur because something more serious is ossur, without knowing even the more serious reason, is foolish squared.
Mixed swimming is almost always ossur, barring extreme exceptions. I think we all agree on that (with perhaps slight disagreement on the extremity of the exceptions).
Your analogy from “vigorous movement” at weddings to gyms is imho misplaced for al 6 reasons:
1. of joy, 2. made in a social setting, 3. while dressed and made up, 4. possibly involving negiah, 5. in a place that people who are uncomfortable may feel obligated to remain, 6. the makers of the event are frum and in control
I’m sorry that I didn’t know that the be’er moshe lived in america. Now I do. R’ Moshe was the posek of litvishe america though, not the debritziner.
Bottom line: all things equal, choosing a mixed gym over a separate gym is rishus per the gemara in bb. The question that a rov must answer is when things are unequal. Must one travel 6 hours to the nearest kosher gym? What about pay 6 times the price? What about sacrificing necessary equipment? Good questions, and I wouldn’t dare presume the “correct” answer. I’m not sure why you would.
Finally, if going to the seaside is called refuah, I can’t see how going to the gym would definitely not be.
Who else is american? I didn’t recognize any names. Sorry for my ignorance. R”O explicitly disagrees with Reb Moshe. He doesn’t misunderstand it. He quotes it correctly and proceeds to disagree with it. As an American Ashkenasy, I go with Reb Moshe.
As far as R”O’s factual premise to the psak: “??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??,” I’d find that exceptionally difficult analogy to apply to a gym. Even leshitaso, which I wouldn’t follow over r. moshe. So again, source?
Perhaps I misunderstood VM. Either way I strongly believe that BTL’s have lower law school gpa’s relative to their lsat score. You disagree with that. My way makes sense.
Not sure how to work the hebrew that well. The following is a direct quote from the only american posek rav ovadia cited:
???”? ????? ??? (??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??) ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???, ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ??, ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??. ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??????. ?”?
THIS leads you to think that mixed gyms are always assur? We must be reading different things…
VM – “yeshiva guys underperform their admission numbers in law school admissions”…
PBA has vehemently disagreed with that. No one has objective numbers. Your way makes sense. His way doesn’t. You have my vote.
Froggie – if your assumption is bringing you to practically do things, I’d refrains from making such large assumptions. If the goal is to discuss and learn how the halachos work, go right ahead and make large assumptions.
However, being that the psukim and common sense (which is only applicable to “mishpatim”) are explicit that this behavior is assur and reprehensible (respectively), your assumption should only last for as long as you’re utterly ignorant and senseless.
Hmm. So Reb Moshe says that for refua one may go to mixed beach if no separate beach available. I wonder what he’d say about gyms?