Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Who cares wha the hamon hoam’s reply is? We know what Shulchan Aruch says. The fact their are extenuating circumstances that unfortunately make women leave their home, does not make it anywhere near the ideal.
1: That is the first time I have heard the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva called the “Hamon Am”. (I didn’t say it, he did 🙂
2: Tuition IS an extenuating circumstance, being that your other option is taking Tzedaka (at the minimum).
This is ridiculous. If your child is too young to make the decision on who to marry, then he/she is too young to get married.
Your societal biases are showing. Obviously Chassidim disagree, as well as many other cultures.
I tell my kids after the beshow: “The decision to go ahead with this shidduch is OUR burden (based on our info), not yours. You don’t have to decide if this is the right one for you. You just have to decide if this is NOT the right one. Is there anything you find negative or off-putting about him?”
If not… Mazel Tov!
Really, the “yes” decision is too heavy a burden for a young person, let alone an infatuated one, to make on their own. The “no” decision is difficult enough.
I like this. May you be Zoche to continue to do so, both for any children you have left to marry and your Eniklach, Bezras Hashem.
tickle toe eitus:
gavra, the position you attribute to the RY of Lakewood is incorrect.
OK, so what is their position? Any quotes (not Boich Svaras, once again). Why do they promote women working out of the home?
Also see the third comment made by a poster on this thread, a point you haven’t acknowledged.
Kol Kavod Bas Melech is Halacha, and we have dealt with it many times here in the CR. I have nothing to add to that point.
My question to you though, is does it apply now (either at all, or with the alternative being taking Tzedaka).
1: Where have Chazal said so in place of the other option being to take Tzedaka?
2: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-womans-place-in-frum-society#post-306001 . Your assumption is false.
I often wonder… Why not ask the Administrator what is the break even point and what is the average family paying? Then you will know where you fall
At least for me, I have no need to do so.
Excellent question. File it under “Why should I not take Tzedaka when others do?” Or “Do I really mean it when I ask Hashem “Lo Lidai Matnas Basar V’Dam”?”
You cannot force women to work for the purpose of paying full tuition. A woman’s place is at home.
Edit: We have outlawed slavery, correct. However, the question is what is supposed to be done, not what can you get away with. The husband could also sit at home doing nothing and his children would still be accepted to yeshiva.
Maybe we should go back to when only white christian landowners could vote.
You do have a point. Only those who on net contribute to the govenment’s coffers should have the right to vote. Just like there is “no taxation without representation”, there should be “no representation without taxation “.
well i find the whole system which forces women to work to be objectionable…
So do I. I propose that “soliek” will from here on in pay everyone’s tuition and needs, allowing women to be home and men be in Kollel.
I often wonder how many kids in my childrens classes actually pay full tuition…Sometimes I wonder if I’m subsidising other children, becasue I pay the full amount….And I don’t live the “high” life with a dual income not have a fancy house/cars…when you p[ay the full amount there is little left over
I know they don’t. I have to do what is Yashar, and they have to do what they think is right.
Personally I would place tuition in the category of necessary monthly expenses, as opposed to the list of luxuries. Whether tuition is too high is another thread.
And since you can’t pay full tuition on a single 5 figure (or even low six figure) salary….
To the OP: It is different, not better or worse. There is a lot of trust in parents that goes into a Chassidish Shidduch, way more than Yeshivish. Hopefully you trust your parents, and that will help you be more confident in their decision on whom you should marry.
On the other hand, are the high schools and post-high schools preparing girls well for motherhood? Or is the focus on something else?
Of course not. Even you agree there needs to be SOMEONE working to put food on the table.
When a person says we must be a 2-income family then the question must be about standard of living. If we are talking about trying to put meals on the table and meet monthly expenses, it’s one thing, but if it’s about buying an expensive house,imported furniture, cars, designer clothing & sheitels, the latest gadgets, the list goes on and on, well, should the little kids have to sacrifice having their mommy raise them for the gashmius?
Or Full tuition.
Well said.
This is a Machlokes between the Gedolim.
Rav Miller and others like him hold that the woman should be at home, and the husband should be the breadwinner and king of the house.
The proponents of Kollel (such as the current Roshei Yeshiva in Lakewood) hold that the woman should be the breadwinner and king of the house, and the man should be in Kollel.
Both are valid Jewish Hashkafos, and one should speak to a Rov and look at all the angles to decide which is best for their Yiddishkeit.
gavra: Using that argument, you can argue they could be wrong about Torah too C”V.
That is where Eilu V’Eilu kicks in, which is a Torah concept only.
Can they be wrong when they said something scientific?
Yes! Chazal is not Hashem, and they can be wrong. (You Kofer!)
The Rabbeinu Avraham ben haRambam says this shows the intellectual honesty of chazal, that they were able to admit they were wrong (i found this really good mussar, because I find this hard to do myself!).
Great! So what do you need us for? I thought your question was how does any of this apply once the earth goes around the sun.
gavra and Sam: The OP wrote “potential boss”, so apparently she was not yet hired. And if she was, we go back to my original point of him being forced to choose between breaking halacha (since he can’t see her hair) or breaking secular law.
I didn’t see that. I agree with you, but just point out that he will possibly have a losing discrimination lawsuit (just like if he would not hire a non-jew for the same reason). He should ask his own LOR what to do in this case.
It affects his ability to hire her or allow her into the office with her hair uncovered. Since it is assur for him to see her hair, he can’t allow her into his office as such.
We are assuming she is already hired. He is allowed to fire her (of course), but will also lose a discrimination lawsuit. However, that has nothing to do with HER chiyuvim.
I think we agree here.
But he has no heter to see her hair. It is still assur for him.
And? I’m not sure why that should affect her.
What do you do in such a situation? Break halacha or break secular law, if it comes down to one or the other.
We are assuming she has a heter to uncover her own hair, and is not breaking halacha by doing so.
PBA: Good PBA answer!
But i thought the earth travels around the sun?
Yes, and?
There are multiple ways to approach. I’ll list two:
1: Metaphysical (what peacemaker is saying) that it doesn’t really means sky, etc. Admittedly, why Chazal would agree to Science on a spiritual question is beyond me.
2: Observer status: Chazal were discribing what happened as they saw it. As is viewed from someone on the earth, the sun goes around and under the earth. That has nothing to do with what happens in the greater Universe (in which the sun circles the Galacitc core, etc.). This makes sense as a viewpoint once you realize that all movement is relative anyway.
TAP and Pell can be used with Touro Israel or Skokie (Seminary) and your daughter will come back with up to 55 transferable college credits. Many but not all sems participate.
Good to know! Thank you.
Even if the woman’s rabbi gives her a heter (which seemingly is only applicable while on a date in any event), the employers rov may not hold of such a heteirim and he is forbidden from seeing her with uncovered hair.
OK. And? (seems to be a theme today). It’s still illegal, and still Mutar for her (the two questions asked by the OP). Maybe to be nice she can do so if she wants, but by asking, the boss opens himself to a discrimination lawsuit.
ChanieE & littleapple: Thank you.
ChanieE: That would mean that your credits would have to be accredited in Israel. I know Michlala & BJJ do so, but I’m not sure about the other “minor” Sems. None the less, it is something to look into for those sending to Israel.
if you are paying 21k it means you don’t qualify for TAP, Pell, Massa, BY scholarship money, all of which basically brings down the price by half,
Never heard of these (Pell, TAP) being used out of country. I have no idea what MASSA is (tried looking it up online, got the Gorilla), and Sems don’t (in general, from what I have heard) offer scholarships. Could you please discribe how you have used these programs to lower your cost (L’Toeles HaRabbim)?
1. Is it legally permitted for a boss to say this?
Absolutely not. He also can’t legally make you cover your hair when married, unless it is a dress code rule (which unless men do it as well, it would be sexual discrimination).
2. Uncovering the hair for a divorced woman (with children) is it so simple to say that she can uncover
No, but Hetairim (and good ones) exist, as others have pointed out. Ask your LOR.
I payed $21,000 for my daughters misery!
Lucky. You’re not paying more later, when your daughter comes home only wanting you to support a Kollel Boy.
Consider it a wise investment.
realist- whatever do you mean?
NBHT means that the Etzem thing is Muttar (as per Ramban in Kedoshim). Platonic relationships are B’etzem Assur, not “B’Rishus HaTorah”. I would have said the same, but Realist beat me to it, and gets credit for it.
Peacemaker: See Ramban in the beginning of Parshas Kedoshim.
From vbm-torah(dot)org
…the matter is that the Torah proscribed certain sexual practices and forbade certain foods, but it permitted relations with one’s wife and the consumption of meat and wine. Now the glutton may therefore find license to be lecherous with his wife or his many wives, inebriated with wine and gorged with meat. He might speak profanity without compunction since the Torah records no such prohibition, and in the process he would be considered a vile and dissolute person that is nevertheless acting within the boundaries of the Torah! Therefore this verse (of “Kedoshim tihiyu”) is mentioned after the Torah has detailed all of the activities that are to be curtailed entirely, for it presents us with a general and comprehensive command that we are to be separated from overindulgence…
I don’t even know what Hashkafa means.
View (as per Google).
sam hill
Cui claves datae sunt abyssi
(RBS makes me in this sort of mood, sorry)
These “Muslims” are lost and fighting for the wrong things. I put “Muslims” in quotations, because just because they dress the dress, doesn’t mean that it is in their heart. They appear to be Muslim, but real, emesdik Muslims do not act in such a way. It is a small group of “Muslims” who need to taste a little but of the sweetness of the Qur’an to awaken their neshamas. I do not support what they are doing. Yes, it is wrong. But instead of looking at all the negative about it, we need to realize that these people really need a lot of help. Instead of arguing about it, we should be thinking of what we can do to make a difference and change it together, as a klal. Why don’t you try davening for these “Muslims” to really see what the light of Islam is about, instead of making such a desecration of Muhammad (Peace be Upon him) going against other humans, including other Muslims? How about davening for the girls in the school and the school itself to be able to flourish and be successful in peace? How about telling Hashem how much we need the twelth Imam so nothing like this ever happens again. It was just Ramadan. Its time to wake up and concentrate on not, “Why” this is happening, and to point fingers, but “How” can I fix it and grow from it.
Point, Counterpoint.
how did this get from rioting over a girls school to pushing people out of a community?
That is the end game. The question is over methodology (which is what Toi does not understand).
so, are you saying this hill where sam lived was a field of onions?
LOL Mr. 80.
What in sam hill is going on in beit shemesh?
I think Sam has nothing to do with it (but have always loved the phrase). Maybe a few of his minions.
“im not saying id wanna live in meah shearim, but ill take it over times square.”
So would I (Times Square what it was before Rudy). But that doesn’t answer the question. Where would you live, and would you act (in a Machiavellian fashion) towards that goal?
not those opinions that are derived from goyish values disguised by the yetzer harah as Torah.
Who decides? The street (as seems to be happening in RBS)? My Gadol? Your Gadol? Wait for Moshiach to come and the he will decide?
I am interested in what Toi would answer. Mr. 80’s would work if my last answer (Moshiach) was his response.
GAW- read my second post on the thread. and i assure you im quite in touch w/ the chareidi mindset; i live in one of the chareidi-est neigfhborhoods. if you see my second post youll understand what i meant. im in no way condoning crazy rioting, and i also believe theyre at fault here.
I’m not sure (not about the rioting, abnout the mindset).
A simple question for you. If you had a choice to either live in a ghetto where everyone was your version of frum by force (those who disagrred are forcibly removed), but have no interaction with the outside world, or in the open where people have a choice, and there may be something that is not 100% your hashkafa (or maybe you will see something shelo K’Halacha), but could interact with the outside, which would you choose? And would it be the same answer as those in Mea Shiarim?
More so, assuming the first (which I am), would you take actions toward that goal?
Health- It’s a free country!!
Obviously, that is a false statement.
okay
i wasnt being evasive though
i dont discuss too much with him other than Divrei Torah and the anyklach
That is why it is a good answer. It is never good for the parents/ in-laws to pry.
gavra: Does that not only apply to daughters who never got married? If she had married she would get nothing, no?
Correct. It is assumed that she already got as part of her marriage.
And what is your source about getting 10%? Also, the b’chor gets a double portion.
Issur Nechasim is from the Gemorah (Kesubos 68a, as well as other locations). And yes, if there is a real Bechor, he gets double in Muchzak (what that is is a question in of itself) if he is not Mochel.
Gavra does your wife actually buy that line?
It is not a “line”. I can load the machine, no problem (and do so, every now and then). Where it gets difficult is when you start drying some things, hanging others, and some dry for 10 minutes and pull out to hang.
I am not good at hanging 🙁 (Ittisa reads this, so she will agree)
i dont know
i never asked him.
Good answer, not to pry. I was just curious if he had found something that I missed.
Mr 80: Out of curiosity, how does your Kollel child pay tuition?
Yes to dishes, no to laundry (not for lack of trying, though. I just don’t do it well).
If there is no will (effective prior to death) today, the brothers split the inheritance without the sisters (halacha l’maisa)?
Lets simplify things and say that all parties are in EY, and agree to follow Halacha. Then:
Each daughter gets 10% of the estate (with the second getting 10% of what is left, and then divided equally) for her dowery.
The daughters and wife get to live off the estate until they marry or the wife gets her Kesuba.
The wife gets her Kesuba (either at her request, or when the estate offers it).
After all that, if there is anything left, the sons may get the rest (after all Chovos are paid, etc.)
If I left anything out, it was unintentional.
i think it stems from envy, and perhaps some guilt, but im not sure.
Envy here. I would love to be in Kollel.