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why learn shakespeare and quote it,(vihameivin yovin) aint no particular torah values there
Chochma B’Goyim T’aamin? Besides, shaychus Shakespeare (or Rush & Shawn, for that matter, who are quoted often by the Yeshivish Olam).
You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back & read it again.
As i understand the difference between MO an R’ Hirsch. MO beliueves there is what to glean from secular study that cannot be gleaned from the torah, and, by studying both, a person can come to realize a bigger fuller picture.
I don’t believe that is the case. I would have put it (for at least one “strand” of MO):
MO beliueves (sic) there is what to glean from secular study that is easier to understand from that source than being gleaned from the torah,
Modern Orthodoxy advocates learning secular education for 2 purposes.
First is for parnassah – MO does not push the kollel lifestyle, and believes a person should provide for his family.
Second is to better understand things. For example, learning trigonometry can better help someone to better understand parts of Maseches Sukkah. We all believe that everything is contained within the Torah, so we learn secular knowledge while recognizing that it all comes from Hashem, and will help us better understand things in a religious context. For example, most halachic medical experts come from MO circles, not from chareidi circles.
I’m going to have to make a distinction (that others have made as well, such as Harry M.).
There is the concept of “Torah U’Mada”, which can mean:
1: Mada is worth studying independently of Torah, being an alternative (or personal) means to certain Mitzva ends.
2: Mada is useful as a support to Torah.
3: Torah can be learned fully only with the Mada needed to understand it.
4: Mada is worth knowing without any other motive.
There is also “Torah Im Parnassah”, which is generally defined as learning but studying enough to support one’s family, including paying the Rabbaim that teach your children.
Then there is “Just Torah”, as Rabbi Dr. Lander ZTL put it when asked. He believed only Torah can be important in one’s life. Parnassah is a side point due to the Klallah of Adam HaRishon, that people have to do Hishtadlus. But there is no “Im” that can put anything with Torah.
Point being, any of these can be discribed (besides for perhaps the last Torah U’Mada point) as either “Yeshivish” or “MO”.
Charadi (as per the “standard definition”), on the other hand, views work (and Parnassah) as a b’Dieved for everyone, no matter what level they are up to in Bitachon.
Shlishi, great post.
I want Feivel for UO.
IIRC, both Sura and Pumbdesia relocated to Baghdad by the 800’s (from Rabbi Wein’s sefer).
Stay Home & Learn Torah.
Magic eraser.
Gate that is installed in the wall, not suction.
Otherwise I’ll echo 80. NORMAL.
If you personally can’t handle, speak to a Rav.
I respect Dr. Lander ZTL for his foresight.
I respect Satmer for its independence, and for sticking to its guns.
I respect the “modern” community for not rejecting the Gedolim of the Charaidi world.
I respect any Yid who lives in Eretz Yisroel, our true home.
Every Yid is Mal’e Mitzvos K’Rimon.
The mainstream Chareidi opinion does hold zionism is treif.
Correct. Satmer just has other methods of obtaining gelt, and/or can stick to their morals. Others can’t afford to do so (literally).
Stay far far away from seminaries.
Keep your ears open. That way the soap used on your brain will exit quicker & will not give you a headache.
Seriously, Keep cell use down, and spend more time traveling the land. Bike the Kineret, and get to Ma’aras HaMachpailah (while you still can). Stay both at a Yerushalmi and a Settlement for a shabbos. Experience the entire Eretz Yisroel, and Geulah is not Paris 🙂
I nominate MSSEEKER for the MO side.
I was discussing “what makes someone MO” with Ittisa, and we decided that Chassidim are “Modern” according to most definitions of the term.
So for the MO side, MSseeker.
Barring her, I think Dr. Hall would be a good choice suing the “standard” definition of MO (whatever that is).
For the Charaidi side, Derech Hamelech. I may not always agree with him, but he argues based on halacha and seforim, not personal opionions, hearsay and bias. I would not want one side to lose based on the inability to debate based on the facts.
If (for example) Rav Belsky and Rav Tendler would have such a debate, I’d be quite interested.
I think too many people would consider Rav Belsky to be MO, so he is not a good choice. Dr. Rabbi Meiselman the same. I would like to see Rav Shmuel (from Philly, since Rav Elya is no longer with us) & Dr. Rabbi Lamm.
In truth, I think a better idea would be to do the exact opposite. Have the MO side argue for Charaidism, and have the Charadi side argue for MO. I think it would be much more informative.
(Disclaimer: I don’t consider myself either side in the standard sense of the terms)
A sura (also spelled surah, surat; Arabic: ????? s?rah) (pl. suwar) is a division of the Qur’an, often referred to as a chapter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura
Fallujah = Pumbedisa
Be willing to go out with someone like Lazer Wolf (a widower), and otherwise be less (I hate the word) picky, and Bezras Hashem you will find someone.
You have the right to be picky. Just be aware it may cost you a shidduch. That is your choice.
(I’ve posted on this many times before, others have disagreed)
Hacham: “Charaidi” without the learning full time aspect jsu makes for Frum Yidden who work for a living. Hashkafic differences aside, since they have no practical outcome (as everyone follows Hashem, has Bitachon, and does Hishtadlus).
As I have said before, Chossid is not the same as Charaidi.
A lot more Chareidi men today work than are in Yeshiva, so the similarity to times of yore is more similar than being admitted.
Depends on the community and what you define as “Charaidi”. It does not seem to be the case in EY, or even many “Charaidi” towns in America once you take into account “Klei Kodesh”. Also look at ages 18-35 instead of before when full time learning became the norm instead of the exception.
And that in of itself proves the shift. We don’t even do what we did 30 years ago, let alone 100 years!
Now, if you want to define Chareidi without the Kollel vs. working aspect, then I will agree with you, to a large extent. But since full time Kollel has so strongly redefined society, I see it difficult to discuss without it.
“For the more learned, knowing what is Biblical and what is rabbinic is part of the beauty of Shabbos.”
That’s very nice to discuss with your chavrusa. But to put it on a public forum where anyone can read it is inapropriate.
Totally incorrect, as I pointed out earlier in the thread.
Discussing Torah by definition is L’Hagdilo, and by definition serves a purpose (As per the Pesukim of at the end of Shemini, discussing worms is Torah, and that is part of the purpose).
observanteen: From your post earlier, it seems like this is your “first contact” with the outside world. I’m normally not the sort to suggest that you go back into your hole in the ground (or other defensive system). However, in this case, that really may be what is best for you and your Yiddishkeit, as you don’t seem prepared for the “outside”, even from other frum Yidden.
Others (I think DHM) have mentioned that the difference between Charaidi & not is that Charadim ignore the outside and try to not expose to anything outside, and not try to prepare for the outside. It is very difficult to be outside if you have not been prepared. Think of it as a cold day. Some parents keep their children indoors, and others send them to play in the snow with a warm coat. If a child wants to go outside but doesn’t have that coat, they will be cold, CV.
I wish you only the best, Simchos & Bracha.
80:
Respectfully, the only way to be Davuk to Hashem is through Limud HaTorah (either personally or vicariously), as per the Gemorah Kesubos that I brought in the other thread.
It is why Limud HaTorah plays such a central role in Yiddishkeit, and (IMHO, but it is probably quoted) why Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam.
gaw is a mod?
Am Not.
BS”D:
a) A woman may not be counted for a minyan
b) A woman may not lead a minyan
A minyan is needed for a Davar Shebikidusha, and requires 10 adult males. This is learned from the language of “Aidah” by the spies, of which there 10 spies that sinned, and they are called an Aidah.
From the Gemorah:
??”? ??? ?’ ???? ?? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ??? (????? ??) ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? (????? ??) ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? (????? ??) ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????
There is a discussion why women do not count. Some approaches are: may not be part of an Aidah (as the spies were male(seeming the GRA in Hilchos Birchas HaMazon)), or they are not Mechuyav in Tefilas Shmonei Esrei (or other Devarim Shebikidusha), so they can’t count for the minyan needed.
One who does not count for the minyan can not lead it, as the purpose of leading is to be Yotze others in the minyan, of which the leader must be part.
“Tradition” is not the answer that the Rishonim & Achronim give.
Don’t flaunt your heterim on our turf; it’s not derech eretz.
LOL! Might I suggest a sealed box?
The attitude was almost like if it is assur midrabanan it is basically muttar.
That is a problem in attitude. Your logic is sound, and is the reason why in many cases, I will ask for a strict Halachic/Torah discussion, to weed out those with “bad attitude”.
Especially if someone than gives them quite a few mekoros in halacha and they still do not change their view.
Which is what I said in the skirts thread. However, in the texting thread, I believe that was based in Halacha (such as my post on batteries). One poster did have an agenda, but also did bring in many critical halachic points (such as what makes Kesiva Doraysah). Even that poster admitted that it was Assur, but thought people were being Moreh Heter due to them not knowing the Issur (also a good point, to teach the why so that people don’t make up their own reasons & reject them (see:Chava)). The poster in question did not reject the points, but brought logical responses. That is Shakla V’Tarya, not trolling.
In short, I think your point is that one should not have a halachic discussion if someone else might be nichshal due to it.
That is a Gemorah BB 89b, that you discuss, and those who are Reshaim will use their excuses.
?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? (???? ??) ?? ????? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ??
Torah is Yashar. If someone wants to twist it, that is their problem.
Chill.
There are a few posters who have agendas, and it goes both ways.
Well, when an OP opens a thread asking “Why is texting on Shabbos okay?”, I think the concern of OP of this thread (observanteen) is very well founded.
And I thought the question was posed as a negative assertion. As in “what are people thinking that texting is Muttar?”
Learn Deni Mamonis. last Mishna in Bava Basra.
???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????
Another thing. In the thread about “What is MO” I posted these exact words, no more, no less: “The differences between MO and Chareidim can be summarized in one word: Priorities.”
I believe my first thread started in this forum was “what-makes-someone-a-charadi”
Charadi is not Chassidish, and also the opposite is not true as well. A real Charadi IMHO is still best defined as a quaker (which has nothing to do with externals, and is open to all types of Jews).
I got to baseball games and you always see religious people there, however I dont think ive ever seen a Chassidic person at one
I have.
BS”D
As for the OP, I completely disagree, but your logic is sound.
You are mixing up two different concepts (I assume you have never learned Gemorah, so I’ll try to explain).
There are halachos, and then there are the mechanics that go behind (and cause) the halachos to make them what they are. For example, We know that if two people are holding a Tallis, and both calim it is theirs, they split it. That is the Halacha.
The Gemorah has a number of dafim discussing why this is so. The Rishonim and Acronim have literally thousands of pages and Torah discussing the why.
For some people, the what is enough, and they don’t want to know “why”. For others, they need to know the “why”. And for a third group (which I would place myself into, as well as others on the “Tzitzis” thread and other threads), we know the “what”, and understand the “why” as part of Limud HaTorah, and something that is a mitza to work at.
So when we say the Chaluka of the Talis is due to a Vadai or Safek, or Texting is Uvda D’chol, a Dirabbanan or D’Oraysah, it is only to find the truth of the Torah.
What bothered me in the “skirts” question was that the questioner did not seem to want the answer, but had an agenda. And Torah can not be discussed with an agenda, either from the left (Skirts should be muttar) or the right (less than four inches is Znus).
positive. As in a real man.
Of course, I may be biased 🙂
shlishi:
a) No Kesuba, no Kiddushin, drop her when you want without a Get.
b) Reish Lakish Keddushin first perek
??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?”? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?????
600: wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.
I have to applaud Mr. 80 here. The Poskim discuss the issue, look at the relevent Teshuvos.
As per the OP, The Gemorah Keddushin applies:
?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????
You are not interested in Halacha, but want to rile things up.
Ask your LOR, and Mods close the thread.
Gavra and peacemaker: Yeshivos taking in boys of less caliber is not the reason why Yeshivos aren’t producing Gedolim. The reason why they are not producing Gedolim is because even in the elite yeshivos the ambition is to become a rosh yeshiva and give shiurim on specific blatt Gemara, as opposed to becoming a talmid chacham and knowing Sha”s.
I would put it as “as opposed to being a talmud chacham and being able to Masvir P’sakim in all areas of halacha”.
Just because it isn’t being done doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be done.
I think halacha has two types of marriages and a person can “fully” marry more than one person. A pilegesh is a second “lesser” type of marriage that can be utilized. I’m not exactly sure how a pilegesh wife is different than a full wife (or even a reason why a man would marry someone as a pilegesh rather than a full wife.) But I believe a person can have more than one regular wife without either being considered a pilegesh.
Pilegesh is a difficult Halachic concept. See Ramabam Melachim 4:4
? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????: ????, ?????? ????????; ????????, ??? ????? ???? ???????, ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????, ?????? ??. ??? ?????? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????
The Rambam is basing his shitta on the concept that Biyas Penuyah is Assur M’Dioraysa. Other Rishonim (IIRC Rashi) hold Pilegesh is Keddushim w/o Kesubah.
Brisk is an elite Yeshiva
Perhaps. It is more like your “middle” yeshiva that can cater to elites (just judging from who I have seen go there recently from my community). Brisk is probably the top Yeshiva that American Bochrim attend. Rav Ya’akov Friedman in Beitar might be another.
I don’t think I necessarily agree with your idea that the elite yeshivos are only for future gedolei hador.
If such a yeshiva existed, then it would have fewer problems with funding. Even I agree that it wouldn’t be exclusivly for Gedolim, but “Gedolim, Manhigim, and leaders of the Klal”. Everyone in the Yeshiva should have a goal of helping and shaping Klal Yisroel B’Poel, not just by having more learning in the world.
Does a natural masmid, who’s not so bright, have no right to learn forever by his shtender if that’s what he and his wife desires?
LMA, I think you missed my point. Learn as much as you want, to your heart’s content. But we as Klal Yisroel need to produce the next generation of Gedolim. Unless we push for them to be created, it won’t happen (or will be substandard).
How exactly do you expect to set the cutting line to decide who is sufficiently smart enough to join an elite Yeshiva?
The funders and the the Rosh Yeshiva of the Elite Yeshiva would decide, just like any entrance exam. In Europe, you had to know Mesechtos Ba’al Peh to get into the elite Yeshivos.
Peacemaker: I am not aware of any yeshivos that exist specificly to produce gedolim. Would you mind naming them?
I am very disappointed in the CR that nobody got my funny story.
Oomis did, and she got it even before you posted!
I noticed this thread got bumped.
I agree with Wolf 100%. Furthermore, IMHO, Mr. is a much more Chashuv term then Reb. or even Rabbi (as in Rabbi Sally P.). If you feel the need to call me something Jewish, call me Gavra or Gever.
When someone calls me Rabbi or Reb, I ask them not to do so.
In no way shape or form did I say one should not sit and learn. (I do understand why one would think that from my post, I’ll try to be more clear here).
I believe there should be two types of yeshivos. One type is for creating Gedolim, Manhigim, and leaders of the Klal, and the other type for those who want to be Mekayim the Mitzva of Limud Torah (the “high school rebbe” yeshiva).
For those who are just trying to learn, who cares how well they do it? Everything they do is just an added bonus, and they don’t need to work hard and become something special. That is not why they are there. In that type of yeshiva, there should be no pressure at all.
For those who want to be the next generation of Gedolim, the only way to become a Gadol is to put in the hours and effort. If it is shown that a student is not putting in the effort, they should be asked to join the other type of yeshiva. This is both not to shter the future gedolim with their batlanus, and as incentive for those who stay to know they are the elite. Someone in an elite yeshiva made (and sponsored) to produce gedolim has no right to be there and become nothing.
So to answer PBA’s point, none of those yeshivos would fall under the “type 1” yeshiva, and all would be “type 2”, and should have no pressure (which they don’t).
Those who are pushing for tests and the sort are only doing so because they think the yeshiva is there to produce, not to have guys just sit and learn.
They’re going into the water with their Shabbos clothes.
Dr., it hurts when I go like this…..
So don’t take them in shabbos clothes!
My answer was blocked (due to yeshivish taboo included).
Sorry.
I don’t see the problem in the first place.
Outlook has the option to add hebrew dates
Tools – options – calandar options – enable alternate calendar