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The only time they would have a Pitur from the Gezeira of Chashad is if they lived in a town of only women or a town of only sterile men.
You tell me. Why is there Chashad, and why does it go away if there are only women?
I just explained that it is indeed a purpose in learning since this is how we are able fullfill the mitzvah of “Liduvku Bo”.
LMA: Again: Circular cause and consequence fallacy. Also Chicken & Egg.
And finally, if you agree with the gemorah, then only Limud can create Devaikus, not other MItzvos (as you were Chozer before?)
Yeah, like, lemaiseh: How’s it working out for you? Is your brand of Orthodoxy successful with its Hashkafa? Is it strong, viable, confident enough about passing on its legacy to future generations intact?
Yes.
As ususal MS, you are insulted by the Litvak viewpoint. I’m sorry you feel that way, but I’m not going Chossid. As is, the Chassidim adopted the Litvak view on Limud HaTorah, which is the only thing that really mattered.
Health: Because we have no good reason why they are not married, other than that they are Zonos (AKA, Chashad).
Health: I hear, but would strongly argue that the Shidduch Crisis inherently removes Chashad (based on R’ Akiva Eiger there).
I Know that the Senator from Kentucky Rand Paul is anti Israel.
M’Heichi Taisi? (how do you know?)
And yeah, i Have Tynnis against my neighbors who are receiving tomche shabbos (although its suppose to be delivered discreetly) and yet they go to the country, summer trips and get furniture deliveries.
Tomche Shabbos is not food stamps. If you have reason to believe that the family in question should not be receiving Tzedaka, mention something to whomever is in charge and they will investigate.
Food stamps, as Joe points out, follow legalities. One can “bend” the laws to get benefits, just like one can do so to pay less in taxes.
mw13: Thank you as well.
However, many of the leading MO Rabbonim came out in favor of Zionism, while almost all of the Chareidi Rabbonim came out against it.
Perhaps this can go under the “Chadash is Assur Min HaTorah!” subheading of the Chasam Sofer.
HaLeiVi, thanks for weighing in. One minor point is that even if doing a mitzva would not change the person one iota, we would still do it because Hashem tells us to do so.
I think this whole discussion is based on the idea that you’d hear more often in the Chareidi decision making, the words, Se Paast Nisht. More modern Yidden would laugh at such talk.
Interesting you mention that. I asked a Shaillah to my Rov a while back, and he (as he will do) told me to do some research and get back to him. I did so, and concluded that the action was Muttar. When reporting my results, he agreed with my research, but said I still should not do so as it’s “Paast Nisht”.
Part of being Machmir is knowing when it is Halacha and when not. For a real good reason my Rov would have probably said go ahead.
LMA: Circular cause and consequence fallacy
Can we all agree (except for LMA) that the Hergesh point is invalid and move forward? 🙂 Since the “Charaidi” Toi disagrees, I move that the point be dismissed for the debate.
Gei Vayter.
Why don’t you ask all those guys sitting in those “Elite” Yeshivos for the last twenty years in Kollel -perhaps they can help you?
Because you are the one who mentioned it. I’m just a plain old working gavra (not even in Kollel).
GAW, this is RUDE. Cut it out. NO insults on this great thread.
I didn’t call him crazy, I called the ideas crazy. Now Einstein you can get on, he called LMA crazy.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
Now, if you called me out on the Reform line, you might be correct. However, so am I (so I don’t feel to bad about anyone who says Limud is not Critical).
but the S’A paskens a woman has a Chiyuv to get married for a different reason
Location?
LMA: Sounds like you changed your mind (again). None the less, you are still not correct. Toi may be closer, but he seems to be discribing Yekkes, not MO :-), and it is not a “Philosophical” difference.
Mitzius. There is no Chiyuv to go to Goyim to learn Chochma, unless it is needed for Limud.
For example, part of the whole Anaskis policy was changed due to data from the CDC. That was unavailable without “Goyim”, so it is a chiyuv to learn it to be able to paskin (and for the mitzva of “Lehavdil” between Kosher & not).
I went to this past year in the winter zman, which was 7 months, all we did first seder was from beis until 6b in Bava Metziah.
That IS slow!
Try Speedy Freidman in EY, where they do an Amud a day (from what I hear).
LMA: Now do you believe me? You have taken a Chassidish Shitta (probably not even that) and made it the “Charaidi” opinion!
Chareidim define their Judaism with their “Hergesh”/feelings, whereas MO defines their Judaism with their intelligence.
I guess Briskers are MO. Quit while you are way behind, just like you should have in the other MO thread, where you said the same crazy ideas. Mitzvos are done because Hashem said so, not for any exterior motive.
You have abrogated the chiuv of Limud Torah, and made it into a side point to “feeling Jewish”. You are guilty of what the GRA accused Chassidim of doing, and what the Reform are doing today!
I would like to hear what Derech HaMelech or even HaLeiVi feels about this point. I have a feeling that they will take the other side as well (as opposed to the Chassidish MSseeker).
Finally, Devakus can only be obtained through Limud HaTorah, as per the gemorah Kesubos.
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Perek Yud Aleph. See Rashi.
adorable:
(not related or meant evil toward Chassidim)
The species of Chassidah is well known for helping its own kind. None the less, it is not Kosher.
Shiver me timbers! is not from Shakespeare
Angels and Ministers of grace defend us!
That was for Pirate day. It goes with the Arrgh!! of Toi.
I’m told that in the US they slip the bottom out.
I’ve never seen it, unless they uncover the coffin afterwards.
I’m dating in the rain
Just dating in the rain
What a glorious feelin’
I’m happy again
I’m laughing at clouds
So dark up above
The sun’s in my heart
And I’m ready for a shidduch
(with apolgies to Arthur Freed, a nice Jewish boy)
Joe/Stamper:
Interesting points. It takes the idea and narrows it to the view of “what can I get away with”. However, it also narrows the people who are MO (as per your definition). For example, Dr. Hall (who is not looking for to “cherry pick”) would not be MO according to your definition. I think you are defining MO the way MO would define “traditional”.
Toi:
Arrr!! back 🙂 The correct day for this is September 19 (TLAP day).
I don’t know of anyone who reads Shakespeare to get the “Chochma” involved, usually it is read for credit (and yes, I can quote him as well from my college days). Then again, I’m not “MO” (I don’t think) in the “standard” definition of the term.
Shiver me timbers!
Health: Are we going to get into a sheves vs. peru Urivu discussion? I have no interest.
well if I dont date because Im to in the mood then how can the right one come around?!?!?!
(To paraphrase)
patience learn, will you.
(From one of the great Mussar masters. Chochma B’Goyim Ta’amin).
why should an intentional murderer without hasra have a better outcome than an accidental killer?
The purpose of Hasrah is to inform the doer of the punishment. WE can not punish without warning what it would be. Also Hashem does the same in His Torah, where for all punishments, there is the “Lav” and the “Azhara” (the law & the warning).
That being said, 80 is as usual 100% correct. Punishment in Yiddishkeit is not “Lehachis”. Just like Gehennom, it is a needed cleansing of the soul, like scrubbing a stain off a shirt. If the stain is too strong, there is no need to scrub, as it will not come out in any case.
However, there is “Kipa” for those who Bais Din decides that their being in society will harm others.
what should i do if today I dont feel like I want to get married anymore…. Im just so busy and now I have to stick dating into my life and its always back and forth about times and days…. i just dont have patience!!!!!!!
You have no Mitzva to get married, so no need to push. Trust Hashem that when you are ready, the right one will arrive.
Gavra: I apologize for my sharp tone. I respect your point of view; your posts are often very insightful.
Thank you, but it doesn’t change my mind that you (and I) are not the right people for the job.
May you have Hatzlacha.
if mosherose and zahavasdad will agree to debate, i will moderate and disallow others from posting.
I would like to see that, even if it wouldn’t be informative.
You as a representative of the MO community and I as representative of Charadi
How about You as a representative of the MO community and I as representative of Charadi?
I know nothing about MO Hashkafa.
There is a Cholov Yisroel farm (Kreider Farms) that was featured here on YWN http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=38927
near Lancaster.
There is a farm tour, and someone I know went and had a great time.
80: Of course not. Slow day_at_work.
“I just don’t like the ignorance that has developed in the Yeshivish/Charaidi world.”
Posted 9 months ago
gavra_at_work
Member
Not that you (LMA) are ignorant (C’V), that is just the reason why I find myself defending the left more than the right.”
Hate to say it (and yes, this is personal, and I don’t mean to be mean, but without it I can’t bring in my point), your posts on why we do Mitzvos are a prime example. I guess I changed my mind on you, based on your more recent posts. Without them, I probably would have been OK with you on one side.
Halachic posts which are posted based off emotion and assumptions (such as yours on MO & Mitzvos, or the one by someone else regarding R’ Meir) and not halacha are just that. Leave the debating to a Talmid Chacham (from both sides) who will argue from sources. Pick your choice, but only real sources (prewar) are allowed. I’m even OK with MSseeker, but she will give a Chassidish perspective, not a “Charaidi” one.
I will point out though, that this is no fault of your own. Part of the RW trend is to learn from outside seforim (especially for women), while the LW trend is to learn from inside seforim. In this case, I am pro LW. As has been shown too many times, it is too easy to twist halacha that is learned “outside” to your own predetermined outcome (see: Tznius and Seminaries).
This is part of building parameters of debate, and not who is chosen.
therefore being very knowledgable of the Chareidi world is enough to qualify me for this debate
But not Charaidi Hashkafa (as you have proven elsewhere). If you debate, it will be world vs. world, and not hashkafa (or halacha). Derech HaMelech is a much better choice (as he is well versed in Halacha and seforim, and knows the many different UO hashkafos).
I am not asking that you choose someone who is in the middle (like me), but someone who is more broad regarding their own side. That is why the best choices (from this forum) are DHM & Dr. Hall.
Or maybe you can choose for the MO, since you constantly criticize the Chareidi community, and I haven’t yet read any posts from you criticizing the MO community.
LOL
I don’t fit into any of the little holes. I’m to the right of Agudah on Toeiva, and to the left on working. I believe that Kollel couples should take full advantage of every red cent the government is willing to give. I believe that one should stay in Kollel (even if they are not learning) over going to work, as it is to your own personal advantage, even if it is bad for the Klal. I believe that opposite gender friendships are a recipe for disaster, unless they treat is like a shidduch date.
As such, I really can’t choose one side. I belong to neither.
However, I would like to see a “clean” debate on the actual facts. You are not the person who will deliver such a debate (based on your prior posts). Nothing against you personally, but I would think you should at least read “Halachic Man” before you go one way or the other (which is why I have not offered myself as a korbon, I don’t think I would be good either).
And lastly, I was also going to point out yitayningwut’s new thread. Thank you.
????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???.
Agreed.
I was ready and willing to hear criticism of the Chareidi community.
And I’m ready to defend them. I have no interest in criticising any group of Torah Yidden, only in defending them.
All I get is personal attacks from GAW,
If quoting you yourself is a personal attack, I wonder what is not personal? Don’t make believe the past didn’t exist. You want a clean slate, get a new user name.
That I don’t think you are a good person for this debate is not personal, it is my opinion on what you have said here in the CR. (I didn’t suggest Oomis either, and she is not taking it personally). I ask mechila if you are insulted, although I don’t know why you would be (from this thread).
When Derech Hamelech & Dr. Hall (my suggestions) show up, then we can maybe have a serious fact based conversation.
P.S. bombmaniac is 100% correct. If you (LMA or MS) want a debate, start one on debate.org.
msseeker…Lomed Mkol Adam is not even willing to define His Charedi outlook, and he is one of the debators…this is never going to happen….
That is why Derech HaMelech would have been a much better choice.
Gavra. how can anything detrimental to your spiritual well-being be something you are mitzuva to do.
Shaychus?
I’m not saying be like him, I’m saying you can learn from him.
If you want to take over for ItcheSrulik, then Kol Hakovod; but I can’t debate multiple people at once.
I don’t define myself as MO (or UO), so that would not be fair. I plan on defending both sides.
I don’t think its fair to quote me from other threads.
A Lobotomy? Or Teshuva? 🙂
do you really believe that CbGT means shakespeare
It means the druggie on the street (and also anyone else). ANYONE who has a point you can learn from them. Anyone.
I think the definition is very simple; either you identify yourself with the Charadi community, or you identify yourself with the Modern Orthodox community.
That is not what you said earlier. To quote:
A Chareidi is someone who believes in the concept of deveikus. In other words, that God is literally connected with every Jew if we first connect ourselves with Him. Deveikus is what defines a Chareidi Jew, and it stands at the core of the motivation of Chareidim to fulfill mitzvos bain adam l’makom, have a relationship with Hashem, and keep away from movies etc. I believe that MO philosophy of Judaism does not include belief in this ‘Diveikus’ concept.
I am much more comfortable with your current definition.
What about those of us who don’t identify with either side?
LMA: Before you start, please define UO & MO. No one yet has been unable to define the terms definitivly (for example, I think MSseeker is MO, and you may be as well). Your own definition in prior threads, for example, is severely lacking.
it means scientific theory and fact.
Or wordplay.
MO believes theres what to take out of mada that is chochma and not necessarily in accordance with tora
Is it or not? If it is Toradig (or can be), what is the issue? If not, then why not bring in other Kofrim, as they are not “Orthodox”?
Or are you one of those who believes that to answer the lice question, you stick your fingers in your ears and scream very loud I Can’t hear you, You Kofer!
Joe killed the thread.
Sorry everyone, but the idea is now tainted.