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somewhereone – Don’t tell this to some posters here. Tov Sheyewho Shoggegim M’sheyewho Mazidim!
talmud -“You could find shiurim there at any level, right up to par of the best yeshivos.”
Name one Rebbe who gives such a Shiur. I’m not knocking DC, but yes there are Shiurim on levels with a lot of other Yeshivos, but not on the level of the best Yeshivos. I’m considering the best Yeshivos like Brisk, Passaic, etc. I don’t think you have a clue what Shiurim in the best Yeshivos are like – so you exaggerated.
Mr. doniel -“When neuroimaging advances to the point where we can make more concrete diagnoses, I’ll be more likely to entertain ideas that as of now, are simply untenable.”
Once upon a time, you’d have a point, but nowadays the psychology field is totally different. But since this isn’t my field, I’m not going to get into it with you. I just want to comment on the line I quoted. Certain things like addictions they have proven exist with things called brain scans.
haifagirl -“As I pointed out, the OP said, “Counselors and community members are reporting a rise in divorce in the Orthodox Jewish community, and some say Facebook is to blame.”
Obviously someone is claiming Facebook is causing divorce, or do you have a different definition of “blame”?”
I thought I was clear enough in my previous explanation, but I guess not.
I understood his question and I answered it. In the first part of my answer I was being sarcastic/joking. If he claimed to be 80 years old -to this I responded – noone ever claimed 80 year olds were getting divorced because of FB. I then explained why it’s causing divorce in younger populations.
haifagirl -“Yserbius123 -“Can someone explain to me, as if I were a 80 year old Luddite, why Facebook causes divorce?”
Noone claimed this and you know it. Are you 80?
Noone claimed this? Really? From the OP:
Counselors and community members are reporting a rise in divorce in the Orthodox Jewish community, and some say Facebook is to blame.”
This was simple reading comprehension, not grammar.
He wanted to know if FB caused divorces. And to that I answered -“Noone claimed this and you know it.” If he needs to be explained like an 80 yo -then noone is talking to 80 yo’s – the claim of divorce was Not on them. I explained the prob for e/o else right away – afterwards.
ZD -“ANYTHING can be used badly”
Not everything, but a lot of things.
“Should we assur cars because they can kill someone or be driven on Shabbos and it can be addicting to drive.
How about Food?
Food addiction is a serious issue, Many people are overweight or suffer from Anorexia”
Now the comparisons are getting more illogical by the minute.
I guess we can live without food, just like we can live without FB. And unnecessary travel Is Not a good thing because of the dangers on the road!
dolphina -“who was it that decided that anything in the world that, if used badly can cause bad results, is ‘assur’ because some people can’t resist temptation?
(not sure what i’m resisting, but let’s just say).
Facebook aside, if people spent more time worrying about their own issues and less looking around worrying about what everyone else is doing or wearing the world would be a better place.”
Guess what? It wasn’t the Rabbonim who decided FB is bad, but the Mental Health community. The Rabbonim hold all of the Net is Assur. Are you going to knock the Mental Health community like you do the Rabbonim?
Yserbius123 -“Can someone explain to me, as if I were a 80 year old Luddite, why Facebook causes divorce?”
Noone claimed this and you know it. Are you 80?
“But I just cannot figure out what the deal is with Facebook. I am near-completely ignorant of “Facebook culture” and “Facebook social circles”.
I have a Facebook account, which I check maybe once day. Most of my friends are pretty boring, so I’m not exactly one to talk. But I just cannot understand what people see in Facebook that makes them so unhappy with their lives. You see pictures of your friends going to Israel, new babies, Channukah pictures, you’re chatting with old classmates. I’m not trying to criticize the idea, I’m just trying to understand it.”
The fact is FB makes it easy to find people and socialize with them and they with you. Even innocent people who weren’t looking to do bad things can sometimes end up doing them. A Frum guy just being on it without trying to get away from their marriage and all of a sudden s/o from the opposite gender befriends them -Not all have the strength to pass such a temtation.
frumnotyeshivish -“Therefore, I’m equally a health professional and a mental health professional. I wonder how you’d distinguish between the two.”
I think you claim you’re a lawyer and I never called you out on this. But perhaps you are a lawyer as much as you are a Health & Mental Health Prof?!? I know I’m a Health Prof, no Matter how many people here in the CR don’t believe me. I just tell the truth, not like most lawyers I know.
“The term “Addiction” requires a threshold amount of loss of self-control or bechira. I’m with jbaldy in the sense that I don’t buy Facebook usage as a typical cause of such loss.”
Ya’see since I’m Not a Mental Health Prof., I didn’t make it up about Facebook. Everything I posted comes from Mental Health Professionals. So it’s you and JBaldy against the Mental Health Profession!
yeshivabochur123 -“Whats it like?”
I wouldn’t say it’s your run of the mill Yeshiva.
“Is there shiur?”
They have many Shiurim from many Rebbeyim for many different levels.
“What type of boys go there?”
All types.
“Do they have a strong group of bochurim in the 22-23 age range?”
Now this I doubt, but they probably have some in this age group.
just my hapence -“We haven’t heard of it just as much as you haven’t heard of our abbreviation. That’s why the mods don’t assume that people reading would think it means yours anymore than ours. They, unlike you, can appreciate the fact that Americans are but a minority of the population of planet Earth, and Americanisms but a minority of colloquialisms within the English language.”
If you would have looked – you’d have seen that my OP was to the Mods. I didn’t have any Taanos on you.
Maybe American English isn’t the only English in the world, but by far it’s the main English here in the CR. Almost all the posters and Mods, even ones living in Israel, are Americans. There are very few non-American English speakers here!
jbaldy22 -“And yes like everything else that means guns, internet, facebook and anything else you can come up with – if you dont know how to use them properly and make the proper gedarim than dont use them (as i keep on saying). You are creating a straw man here.”
How can you write guns and anything else together with Net & FB -the latter two are addicting substances?
All your posts are full of denials about the evils of Facebook.
I’m not a Mental Health Prof., but I know Denial is one of the symptoms of Addiction.
jbaldy22 –
I don’t have the time or energy to keep refuting your posts over & over. The only reason I’m doing it – is Not to convince you, but that you shouldn’t influence others.
“1) Anything in excess is bad – alcohol in itself is an addictive substance facebook is not. Just because people like to do something and it drags them in does not make it an “addiction” case in point the APA still refuses to classify internet overuse as an addiction. Again you like asserting that things are similar that are in fact dissimilar.”
First of all, not everything in excess is bad, but Facebook IS!
If you do some research there are Psychologists that are calling it the way it is -“Internet Addiction Disorder”, “Facebook Addiction Disorder”. And the reason they are doing this is because people like you shouldn’t say these things aren’t possible to be addictions and pointing to the APA’s classification as proof. I don’t know if you really think the APA holds these things aren’t addicting or you’re trying to manipulate others. But the APA holds these things are addicting substances, but feel they don’t need their own classification because they fall under the classification of “Impulse Control”.
“2) I was pointing out an obvious flaw in the study – it is what we call a skip in logic. The study assumes that all the kids involved were normal prior to facebook use and that facebook was the only cause. It also assumes that facebook overuse causes narcissism and other mental issues and not vice versa. That is what is called a correlation – causation flaw. As the study does not mention numbers we are left to our own devices.”
Funny, you mean only you know how to do a study, not them. Actually if you would have looked it up -they didn’t do this at all. They used questionares. They asked people about their Mental Health history and then they looked at their responses about Facebook. Those without Psychological histories were still found to develop narcissism and other bad traits. Those with Psych histories -it exacerbated their conditions! But, nice try!
“3) articles and studies on internet addiction predate facebook – there were actually a bunch done in the late 90’s. There were studies on the affects of computer games, staring at a screen for too long, and how google is changing the way our brains are wired and that people dont know how to think or do research properly anymore. A simple search through google scholar will provide you with tons of reputable articles on the subject. I dont think the cr will allow for the links though so i will not attempt to post them.”
You could have cut & pasted them. But like I told you, yes there are other problems with excessive Internet usage esp. with regards to social networking (which FB is a part of), gambling sites and others. So what is your point? Yes, there are other dangers on the Net, but I don’t think this makes the whole Net bad -but obviously the Rabbonim disagree with this opinion. And even though they disagree – there are still many Frum sites and many Frum people on the Net.
“4) with the gambling thing again just because gambling and drinking are addictions does not make anything else you assert addictions.”
Again, it’s Not me who is making these assertions -it’s many Psychologists and other Mental Health Professionals!
“5) Even if we assume that facebook is an addictive substance – which i dont believe it to be so – it is still not a reason to not have it anymore than it is a reason not to have cell phones despite that fact that people check it/are on it all day. the allure is to be constantly connected socially which is a basic human need. It is like saying people shouldnt eat food or breath because you might get addicted (you see what I just did there?)”
It definitely is true that some people are becoming addicted to their devices, like cells, and this is also talked about in the research, but why does this negate FB as a problem? And the argument that cells are equal to FB is ridiculous. There are a lot of reasons for people to have cells like in emergencies (IE -911), but I know of No other reasons to have FB than social ones. It is addicting and causes bad traits (Middos), like narcissism and I’m not the one saying this – the Research is!
Ash –
+10; but he will have a comeback with his half truths No matter what. E/o knows when s/o is lying because Sheker Ain Lo Raglyim. So how do you fool people with a lie? Simple – add some truth and then you can fool yourself and others!
Mr. Doniel -“What adulteration can possibly occur in the store of muffins and donuts?”
I think I mentioned this in the other topic. I personally don’t see what’s wrong with eating these donuts or muffins, but I’m not a Poisek. But the impression I’m getting from you is that you can assume that any donut or muffin in any DD is kosher. This is by far the furthest from Truth. If you know for a fact that the store only gets from the Kosher regional bakery -then fine. But there are many DD’s out there that bake themselves. I mentioned that the Kosher DD’s in Baltimore and in Lakewood do in fact bake for themselves -so before they got their Hechsheirim you’d probably eat there. And even if you wouldn’t, by coming here with this topic, people reading this topic who don’t know better -you probably are being Nichshal them to eat Tarfus!
PBA -“Mod: I disagree with that. People who don’t know what it means will google it, and will think it means “The fstrongly edited I care”. And that is something we should not want.
And yes; I wrote that word; on yeshiva world. I wrote it, because that is exactly what you caused me to read on urban dictionary, when I googled it after you allowed it up. So I’m sharing my experience with you, since you think it is ok.”
+1. What I don’t understand is why they assume that people will think it means -Tongue firmly in cheek? I didn’t think that and I didn’t need to google it either to think of the American abbreviation.
Mod -“I don’t know which mod deleted your comment, but I don’t see what they (or Toi) found objectionable, so I’m going to put it back up.”
Mod – we are Not English and all Americans will think it stands for – The _____ I care!
jbaldy22 -“@Health the only thing your proof proves is that people shouldn’t “overdose on facebook” (kind of obvious if you ask me)”
Well -you missed the point -these type of sites are easily luring to anyone and it’s easy to become addicted. Your point is like there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol and there is nothing wrong with being in a bar all day. There might not be anything wrong with drinking alcohol, if you’re not addicted to it, but do you think being in a bar all day might influence some to become alcoholics? The same is true for facebook.
“and that people with prior psychological conditions tend to have their conditions exacerbated by using facebook (and an obvious correlation – causation flaw right there).”
The only flaw is your comment. In your haste to defend yourself you didn’t read it well. -“development of narcissism in teens who often use Facebook”.
It also says it causes bad things -like Narcissism, even without other Mental Health issues.
“And the main problem with your study is that I could bring you 50 reputable studies that say the internet is horrible for our thinking and for society. Does that mean you should never use it?”
Go ahead and bring at least one. Most of those studies are about things that you are subjected to in the internet, like Social Networking sites and other bad sites. Leaving those things out -I wonder if you can even find one Professional Journal negating regular usage in the Net.
The following article exposes the relationship of symptoms and Facebook, which implies to me that Facebook is problematic in itself, even if it’s just a general Internet addiction. Of course if it’s what they are calling a Facebook addiction -it’s obvious Facebook is causing the problem, like any other type of addiction, eg. gambling. Unless you’re now going to claim gambling sites and other sites -that there are no inherent attraction to cause people to become addicted. To claim this would be false and would be based on your lack of knowledge of addiction disorders. Here it is:
“Relationship between Facebook use and problematic Internet use among college students.
Kittinger R, Correia CJ, Irons JG.
SourceDepartment of the Navy, Pensacola, Florida, USA.
Abstract
The popularity of Facebook and other online social-networking sites has led to research on the potential risks of use, including Internet addiction. Previous studies have reported that between 8 percent and 50 percent of college students report problems consistent with Internet addiction. The current study assessed a range of variables related to Facebook use, and sought to determine how the use of Facebook relates to problematic Internet use. Undergraduate participants (N=281, 72 percent women) completed a battery of self-report measures, including the Internet Addiction Test, via an online interface. The results of the current study suggest that a sizable minority of students experience problems related to Internet use and that the use of Facebook may contribute to the severity of symptoms associated with Internet addiction.”
haifagirl -“I happen to agree that people under a certain age should not be using Facebook. That study was about teens. Teens do a lot of irresponsible things. They don’t need Facebook to do something stupid.
But it is a leap to say because it causes some problems in some teens everybody, including adults, should stop using it.”
The study was about teens because if you peruse the research you’ll find Adults don’t use Facebook very much -so they aren’t subjected to the same kinds of problems as teens. But if adults are doing the same things as teens like Facebook addiction -then they are subjected to the same negative results.
haifagirl – No, that Isn’t Proof!
In my post the Doc admits there is some good, but it looks like the bad outweighs the good!
haifagirl -“I just looked back through all your posts. Perhaps I missed one, but I didn’t see any proof. Could you please re-post it?”
Here it is again. From a top Mental Health professional. He found more bad than good in his study. Even though the study was with Young Adults I think it could apply to e/o. It’s Not my job to convince anyone Not to use it, but how about trying to look at this issue from a different perspective? Here it is for the second time:
“While social networking site Facebook was created to help people connect with their friends, increasing research in the effect of social media on human interaction is painting a different picture — one that features the development of antisocial behavior, narcissism and a slew of other character flaws and negative by-products.
Overdosing on Facebook may lead to the development of such psychological disorders in teens, according to a recent study conducted by Dr. Larry Rosen, a professor of psychology at California State University.
In a presentation entitled “Poke Me: How Social Networks Can Both Help and Harm Our Kids” at the 119th Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association, Rosen presented his findings based on a number of computer-based surveys distributed to 1,000 urban adolescents and his 15-minute observations of 300 teens in the act of studying.
Some of the negative side effects of Facebook use for teens that Rosen cited included:
development of narcissism in teens who often use Facebook
presence of other psychological disorders, including antisocial behaviors, mania and aggressive tendencies, in teens who have a strong Facebook presence
increased absence from school and likelihood of developing stomach aches, sleeping problems, anxiety and depression, in teens who “overdose” in technology on a daily basis, including Facebook and video games
lower grades for middle school, high school and college students who checked Facebook at least once during a 15-minute study period
lower reading retention rates for students who most frequently had Facebook open on their computers during the 15-minute study period
Not all findings were negative, however — one of the more interesting points from Rosen’s research was the development of “virtual empathy.”
Generally, we think of empathy as an in-person activity, where hugs, facial expressions and kind words help improve a loved one’s mood. Rosen says that teens are developing the ability to show virtual empathy for distressed Facebook friends and that the empathy is actually well-received by friends, positively influencing their mood.
This virtual empathy, he says, can even spill over into the real world, teaching teens how to empathize with others in everyday life.”
Mods -Ok, thanks for telling me.
Mods – Why was my proof deleted? I quoted from a professional from the American Psychological society?
for use of the word pathetic.
haifagirl – Now that I brought proof – do you or anyone have any proof how good it is?!?!?
jbaldy22 -“If you make yourself unsearchable and dont friend members of the opposite gender (which is what i meant by proper gedarim) I would love for you to explain to me what is wrong with it.”
Well that’s only if you know people on it already, but for people to know the avg. guy is on it – is to make yourself searchable.
“I can list to you numerous things that are right with it and acts of chesed and support which happened there that would not be possible without social media.”
Yes, you could make Gedarim, but that’s not how FB is supposed to work. It’s supposed to work to pick up more friends. Yes, it can be done only Kosher, but the Moshol still stands – which you didn’t answer. From previous -“You can be in the worse place in city and a Disco was just an example, but there are worse places. Is it alright to be there even if you’re Not doing anything wrong?”
SB -“However, the ones who feel that they have the right to ruin my life over such ridiculous things is the one that should be seeing a doctor.
Bullying will not be tolerated.”
Unfortunately, bullying is common in Yeshivos and seminaries. Somethings the Frum world has Not yet tried to deal with – along with other types of abuse. This whole situation is probably a big turn off for you from Yiddishkeit (Judaism), but remember, these people, no Matter how high up they are on the totem pole don’t represent Hashem (G-d).
jbaldy22 -“@Health I dont really understand your going to facebook affecting you thing or people coming to you thing is – I have had facebook for 6 years and have never had that experience. There are privacy settings on facebook which can make you unsearchable if thats what u want. I think you might be confusing facebook with myspace which had some of those issues?
Finally saying facebook is like a disco is sophistry (like many other internet related mesholim). There is nothing inherently wrong with facebook.”
Can I ask you a question? You seem to be in some sort of denial, but how could you deny the fact that FB is even worse than the Net after reading DY’s post about his friend? Does than even happen on the Net unless you go to a social site?
This is why My Moshol is right on target. You can be in the worse place in city and a Disco was just an example, but there are worse places. Is it alright to be there even if you’re Not doing anything wrong? Just think about it for a second before you respond!
T613T- Call Ohel – 800-603-OHEL. Ask for their helpline.
DY -“Possible sleeping disorder?”
It’s not a sleeping disorder, but an anxiety disorder with side effects from the wrong Meds.
jbaldy22 -“@DY and @ health the argument you are making is no different than the argument many have made against the internet in the first place – if you choose not to have the internet kol hakavod. But facebook is just like the internet in that regard – it isnt for everyone but if used with the proper gedarim it can be used for great things. My point was singling out facebook and making hyperbolic arguements dont help anyone – ie facebook is like a disco or facebook is a primary cause of divorce. In general those type of arguments tend to make the people who make them look unintelligent and dont have a very high likelihood of convincing anyone.”
First of all -I’m not interested in convicing anyone.
Second of all, IMHO FB is worse than the net. Yes you can be in a disco doing Kosher things like a Shidduch date, but the place affects you. You can be on FB doing Kosher things, but the place can affect you easier than the Net. On the Net you have to go to bad places -they almost are never coming to you. On FB the way I understand it is anybody can come to you. It’s much more of a harder Nisayon.
SB -“I mean, I have only seen him this past week because my cousins were here, but I don’t really have time in my schedule to go to a support group. I have so many things I need to carve in my schedule. I know I need therapy, but I am kinda getting sick of it at the moment.”
You definitely are full of excuses. Do you even realize how much time you spend in the CR?
SB – The best thing is instead of trying to change him -how about avoiding him, even if it means avoiding others in your family?!
jbaldy22 -“and i dont view it as something inherently good or bad. I still have not really heard any cogent arguments to the contrary.”
It isn’t inherently bad -it’s the Seviva. Take a hall in the middle of the city -it’s just a hall. Add a rock band & add Goyim dancing not wearing Tzinus clothing and I won’t mention what else. Now a Jew doesn’t belong there, even if they are doing something Kosher like a Shidduch Date, because it’s a bad Seviva.
Do you know any really Frum guys who would take dates to a disco place? I don’t think so. Facebook is the same thing, just in the privacy of your home.
2scents -“I will repeat something that I already wrote, as an active H Member, there is no tznius issue at all, the providers and the patient have other things at mind when there is true emergency.”
I’m sorry, but the Rabbonim in New Square and the Karlsburg Rov differ from your opinion. Do you have any Rov that concurs with your opinion?
73- looks like they fear me more. You can do the honors of closing it.
I was actually talking about the “na na na boo boo” and the “HA HA GOTCHA,” but I think it is about time anyway.
Well, I was talking about talking.
Syag Lchochma -“you are right, it is not common, but it is not a rare occurance by any means and saying that it indicates a lack of responsibility was not always the case. I didn’t mean to blow it up, I just meant to clarify that it wasn’t a fair statement.”
This was exactly the point. E/o in medicine knows that these labors do occur, but it’s not the majority. Even in EMS they aren’t the majority -so policy isn’t based on minorities. It would make good sense to educate Frum people of when to go to the hospital – when to call EMS, etc. This would eliminate a lot of Ob EMS calls. It would be good policy for Hatzolah to have women responding to Ob/gyn calls because the majority of these calls could be well served by women!
Ctrl Alt Del – “TOUCHDOWN!! You never fail to deliver. (HAHA no pun intended)”
And neither do you. How about trying something logical next time?
Ctrl Alt Del -“Actually neither,This topic interests me because I am a healthcare provider and things that effect or impact the delivery of care interest me. These topics also happen to attract you. Only your replies to hard questions and issues seems to be the spaghetti approach. When you want to know if spaghetti is truly done al-dente, you throw a single one against the wall. If it sticks its done. If it falls, you cook the rest a little longer and test agin in a minute or so.
Now, after people call you out on your responses or they disagree with you, you resort to flinging another noodle. And then another. And then another. And then the accusations and name calling. Its a pattern. We’re all used to it by now. (At least some of us are) Its amusing (at least to me). So I sit back and I watch the fireworks and I make a small quip on how this entire thread is following a predictable track.”
If your theory was true then there would be No logic in any of my posts. And if you say -“Well there isn’t” -then you should refute my logic with your logic. Since you didn’t do that and all you did was attack me personally this shows that logically I’m not wrong. And you had some alterior motive(s) to put me down because you had the chance.
2scents -“Interesting that most of your debates for some reason turn personal, for this reason I have decided not to respond to your posts, even though in this topic I am the one in the know and you are clearly not!”
Funny, if you posted this at the Git-go – I might say perhaps there is some truth to it, but you gave me some logical arguments in this topic at the beginning which I refuted. So I tend to believe that you have nothing logical that states Hatzolah shouldn’t have women respond to Ob calls – so you resort to “I am the one in the know and you are clearly not!” The implication is that I don’t know what I’m talking about because you are on Hatzolah and I’m not. This might be true about my knowing everything about Hatzolah, but if the reason that Hatzolah had was Ousgehalten based on some Poisek’s Psak -you would shout this from the rooftops. So the fact that you’re resorting to say -you don’t like responding to me -tells me you/they don’t have a good reason why they aren’t taking on women for these types of calls.
rebdoniel -“I’ve never read any teshuva advocating for the exclusive use of male Ob/Gyns. We’re not Muslim fanatics. We believe “Ve Chai Bahem.””
Excuse me – you obviously didn’t read my posts. I differentiated between Doctors and EMT’s. A Doc you need to have a good relationship with – this can affect the mother’s and baby’s health. So it would be Sakana Nefoshos to use s/o that the pt. isn’t comfortable with. So they can use Male providers. While if a male EMT happens to be on an OB call -yes they are allowed to render care, but if there can be a female instead -why isn’t it preferable to use a female?
“All EMT’s are more than capable of delivering babies. It’s an important part of their training.”
And it seems that the EMT’s of EN have more training in Ob than regular EMT’s.
yytz -You made some very good points. The Rabbonim are very much against the internet and the leading problems with the Net are sites like Facebook. Even if you are only doing Kosher things there -you shouldn’t be there. I once heard that Rebbitzen Jungreis said bringing a TV in your home is like bringing the Goyim and their Haskofos into your home. FB is by far – worse than general internet and TV. It’s not just bringing Goyim into your home -it’s going to their worse hangouts in the city and mingling with them -Disgusting.
Syag Lchochma -“Health – Can you please chill out? You get so many posts from people asking, telling and begging you to stop being so harsh, doesn’t that register? No need to give me a nasty retort, just figure out what stops you from having a civil conversation and start working on it. People may have an easier time hearing your point if it isn’t accompanied by unprecedented put downs.”
Now I’m sure you mean well, but what I don’t understand is your selective reading. Go back and read the recent posts from page 3 and read all the posts till now. You’ll see that I wasn’t the one that started attackng others and most of my put-downs were just defenses against others. Now if you were my mother or my Mashchiach -I’d understand why you’re commenting on my posts, but that isn’t the case. And since there are far worse “harsh, put-down” posts than mine – why are you singling me out? Do you have some bias against me?
Ctrl Alt Del -“My post still stands. No matter what the argument, somehow no matter how infinitesimally small the knaitch is, there will be some way that you will find yourself right. Its not an attack. It is sarcastic. But it is what it is.”
If it isn’t an attack – then what is it? The purpose of the CR is Not to sit around like women in bungalow colonies (or Lakewood) do and yenta and agree one with another. The attraction for people to come here is the differences of opinion. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. If you don’t like the fact that I’m argumentive – you have a choice – either say nothing – or respond with a logical argument – or make nasty comments. You choose the latter. Now even if you don’t have a logical response – why Not say nothing? What compels you to make your comments on others? The first two responses don’t show a lack of Middos, while the last one does.
You see for example -I’m assuming you posted here in this topic because either you agree with Hatzolah about EN or you’re Hatzolah. The reason you don’t respond with a logical argument even if you had one, because you have No fear – you don’t care about right and wrong – you just will do whatever you want because you know the sheep will Not stand up to you.
rebdoniel -“Tznius isn’t a reason. Women go to male obstetricians all the time.”
Another Poisek in the CR. Do you have any real reknowned Poiskim that agree with you? And picking a Doc is allowed because you need to get the best one, but there is no difference between EMT’s. At least EN EMT’s did extra training in Ob which regular EMT’s don’t have. I see no reason that women if they prefer to have females shouldn’t have them. They shouldn’t be forced to have a male if they call Hatzolah. I thought this was an org. for the community -are these women part of the community?
“I think this is another attempt for women to want to do everything men can. A further erosion of gender differences.”
Another mind reader of the EN women.
2scents -“Each Hatzoloh has their board of rabonim that know the details and are involved in the day to day halachik questions that arise.”
So did they ask their Rabbonim about this or did they tell them?
“So don’t make it seem as if EN have rabonim and Hatzoloh does not, in fact karlsburger ruv is a very controversial rav.”
Name a Rov that paskened it’s better to have males on OB calls than women!
“Besides they did not approach the rabonim that run Hatzoloh, nor did they approach Hatzoloh. They only approached the media.”
This is Not true. I didn’t know Rabbonim ran Hatzolah. As far as I know they have a board of Rabbonim that they ask things to, but they don’t run it. Also, EN sat down with Hatzolah org. in NYC and they nixed it with the claim R’ Moshe zt’l Assured it. They must know how to talk with Maecim, because R’ Moshe zt’l never Assured any such thing in his lifetime. He did say women shouldn’t join Hatzolah, but that was in general. He was never was asked about Ob/Gyn calls.
“I don’t know why your changing facts, currently in Hatzoloh each OB call is an ALS call, in NY it’s an ALS call, if someone calls 911 medics will show up, they might not transport however they will do the delivery, currently EN only have EMTs which means their care will be on a lower level then if the PT would have called Hatzoloh or 911.”
Enough with the lower level bit. I told you before that Hatzolah could have had these women join and they could send EMT’s or Medics to the call originally and if it’s not an imminent delivery – they could back off and have the women care for the pt. and they could drive the bus.
Does Hatzolah pay you for being their spokesman? If they don’t, they should. Maybe you can fool most people, but I know what’s really going on.
FIA -“So, frankly, this whole hubabaloo is much ado about nothing, regarding an unneeded service being promoted for feministic reasons that will rarely be called.”
This part shows your bias -you prob are a Hatzolah member. Saying that they are only doing it for feministic reasons is like saying all Hatzolah members are only doing it for Kovod. I don’t try to read minds whether it’s Hatzolah guys or EN ladies – noone knows why people do things -some mean well and some don’t.
And how do you call it “uneeded” – these women who started this feel it’s needed?
My only objection is that this project should Not be supported by the Klal -the women who started it and the women that will use it – should support it. As it is there are many needy Jews and there is not enough Tzedaka money to go around.
FIA -“1. Hatzalah does not often take pregnant women to the hospital, as they usually go with their husband or by car service.”
What does often mean? Yes, there are plenty of calls that are routine OB transports and some of these are actually childbirth. Don’t make it sound that all their OB calls are actually deliveies.
“2. Women across America (Jews and Gentiles) use standard 911 EMS service that has a chance that the paramedic and ambulance crew will be male or female. The patient rarely ever knows in advance. Yet there is no major outcry by American women to institute a “female ambulance service” due to “women’s special needs” only addressable by “other women”.”
I’m not a spokesman for EN, but don’t compare Jewish women to Goyishe ones. EN claims that many Frum women don’t want to be treated during OB emergs by Frum males. Esp. if these Male providers are people they personally know from around the neighborhood. I don’t think they’d go all out to start such an org. if they didn’t have many women who felt this way.
Gamanit -“And Health- some woman are perfectly educated and still don’t have time. Ever heard of silent labor?”
I admitted to this in a few posts. But this is the exception instead of the rule. Miyut Shaino Motzuy!
Ctrl Alt Del -“All the people need is some clean cloth and pressure and shoin! all bleeding will be controlled.”
Excuse me Mr. Nurse in the ICU -is that what I said? Maybe in the ICU e/o needs central lines, but Not in the real world. The fact remains that Most bleeding will be controlled by pressure and a bandage. You don’t need EMT’s or Medics for minor bleeding.
You felt you must respond with sarcasm and lies like I just pointed out. Why? Do you need to be a member of Hatzolah to validate your existance?
2scents -“Health, You are totally wrong, OB calls used to be BLS, its changed and became an automatically ALS call, in the system and in Hatzoloh.
Any imminent OB call, will have para,edics on the scene, unless its just a fancy taxi job.”
I know the protocol -I posted it above. If Medics come to assess instead of EMT’s first – fine. After their assessment they could still hand it over to women and pack out.
“The reason behind the change if protocol is because most women (not chasidishe that always wait till its to late) that call EMS for a delivery usually have poor prenatal care, therefore the protocol demands that Paramedics be called even though its a BLS skill.”
Yes, so you need Medics because their is a risk of health to the Newborn. Again, so by your own admission this doesn’t apply in the Frum comunity. So you don’t need medics with Frum women.
And even if you did, the EN women want to become Medics anyway.
“I have been reading the arguments of both sides, I really think that this should be discussed with the EMTs and Paramedics that currently do it, see what they have to say.”
Oh EN did sit down with Hatzolah and they nixed it. And they claim they nixed it for the wrong reasons and I agree with them!
“Again, in new square, because they must have females on the transport (per the rebbes protocol), they have a hard time finding EMTs and Paramedics for OB calls. A serious married person does not want to sit in an ambulance with females, especially if they are part of the crew.”
I agree. I guess you still didn’t read my post above. I suggested a different way of doing it.
“It might solve the issue of “some” female patients being more comfortable, however it raises halachik questions”
I didn’t know your EMT or Medic cert and Hatzolah plaque made you a Poisek and Not just a Poisek, but a big one at that. New Square had Poiskim that said it’s better for women to do this. EN got the Haskama of the Karlsburg Rov. What Hatzolah said this is against R’Moshe zt’l’s Psak. What they failed to say was in no way was THIS Shailah asked to R’ Moshe. The Shaila back then was should women be allowed to join in general.
Mammele -“You guys are so clueless. Most hospitals send women home if they arrive too early, some women have impossibly short labors (not the first child) and driving yourself in an emergency can be deadly, or even impossible if there are injuries.”
What makes you an expert? Having many kids? If this gives you expertise -why use medical care at all for childbirth? Stay home!
Noone said drive yourself -how about a spouse, relative, neighbor? And the middle two points are due to lack of education in most cases which I’ve repeatedly said. Hardly anyone has less than an hour long labor.
“Bleeding, burns, even appendicitis or severe pain can lead to shock, and most issues can unexpectedly escalate.”
I didn’t know e/o could diagnose Appy’s at home. I thought that was my job. Yes, bleeding, burns, pain or abdomen pain -all can be minor -not needing an ambulance. Get some education.
“And how easy is it to get a cab during a snowstorm? Thank G-d for Hatzolah.”
Stop with the one-in-a-million case. This proves nothing.
“Health: adding women into the Hatzolah mix adds another layer of logistics where the benefit does not outweigh the risks. Even if you’re right with all your solutions, they may cost valuable time to be lost or backfire when things go awry. Bottom line, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
Wrong -they are trained like e/o else. There are Rabbonim that say it’s a prob of Tzinus -so why object? Not one poster has put up a real logical argument. So perhaps Hatzolah should rethink their position?