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Can’t be me – apparently I’ve been banned from posting in news stories and wasn’t even told about it?
How unceremonious.
Squeak:
That was great – I got a real kick out of that one. Thanks!
Brooklyn:
I used talking to girls as an illustrative example, so I don’t want this to turn into a re-hash of that discussion which has been had several times over on YWN. It suffices to say that we have two different approaches and worldviews to the issue. It’s only collaterally related anyway.
As far as social security numbers, I would hope that it is extremely difficult for a child to find out their parent’s social security number. Nobody should ever have access to that number but yourself. There is no good reason for a child to have that information, and if you keep your social security card locked up (as you should), they won’t really have any way to find out.
Texting and internet access are services for which you are billed. I would find it hard to believe that any carrier would allow activation of those services without speaking to customer service/billing, or logging into the account online – something to verify authorization. The fact that kids do have phones, and the risk of theft or loss of the phone should lead to no other conclusion. I know that you can’t activate either service on my carrier without express authorization.
Finally, you say that to give a teenager the tools to mess up is asking too much. First, the teenagers already have the tools – they have their autonomy and brains. Besides, isolating your child from every instrument which may cause error is to ensure that your child does not grow, mature, and learn how to be a functional adult. Who is going to shield them when they are adults? If they have been shielded their entire lives, when it comes to the point where they are thrown into the real world, they won’t know how to control themselves, let alone their own children. Learning how to control ones’ self does not come automatically with age – it comes from experience. By eliminating experience, you severely harm the child’s chances of being balanced as an adult. Education and moderation is a better way – sure, a kid will probably mess up. But in the end, it’s worth it to have a child mess up once or twice in the learning process, then end up in a downward spiral of mistakes because they never got the chance to learn.
That being said, there is obviously an appropriate age at which one should be learning. I wouldn’t give my fifth-grader a phone, or even consider it. teenagers, however, are a stone’s throw away from being on their own in the real world, by which point they will have had to learn or else they will be in danger of maladjustment and constant mistake.
Ujm:
What you say about children is correct. However, it proves too much. If children are astute enough to get around blocks on phones, what makes you think they aren’t astute enough to get into the same trouble they would have gotten into with the phone anyway?
Brooklyn19:
I don’t know the types of friends you keep, but in my experience, talking (and even hanging out) does not necessarily lead to touching. If the inclination to do that is there, forbidding them to talk to members of the opposite gender (while you’re looking anyway) is not going to stop them. I would rather teach my children how to handle the situation than shelter them from it completely. As I said before, shelter them completely and they’ll have no idea what to do when they are on their own in the situation – which can end up WAY worse.
Walking on the street could “destroy” your child’s soul – do we keep them locked indoors? It’s the mass hysteria that a cell phone is a sure way to doom your child to hell that is the problem.
Joseph + soapbox = just as dangerous…
Joseph:
That’s a ridiculous and faulty analogy, especially unworthy of a response due to its tone (not that I expect anything better).
Brooklyn:
I’m perfectly aware of what’s at stake (though some steak sounds good as well). The phone itself and the things you can do with it (let’s assume no internet on the phone), enable harmful activities, it is not harmful in itself. The trouble a child may get into with a phone typically requires some further action on the child’s part – and that is where a parent can step in. Letting your kid get burned is a balancing act.
Admittedly, I likely have a different parenting philosophy than most here, but there are things that matter more than other things. To take Joseph’s ludicrous example, I would never let my child put him/herself in serious physical danger. Nor would I let my child seriously damage him or herself spiritually. However, as you pointed out, you cannot completely control a child’s thoughts and actions. If they harm themselves spiritually in some way, sometimes it is better to let them feel the regret and remorse – how do you learn the true meaning of teshuva if you are prevented from ever doing anything wrong? Granted, our differences probably stem from the fact that I do not view all communication with the opposite gender as inherently spiritually harmful, and that’s a large part of what this is all about I would guess.
There are people who work who fall desperately below the poverty level, so this assumption makes no sense. I think many people here can tell you from experience that work =/= rich.
As far as the mechanchim argument, it may be less that you are working and can afford to pay more, and more that mechanchim are not typically paid very well AND they are performing a service to the community by educating our children. People may not always word it well, but that’s probably more of the attitude than the simple “you must be able to afford more.”
yeshivish:
The parents who don’t have the time or interest, or who don’t believe it is necessary, then, are the problem – not the phone itself.
Brooklyn19:
You underestimate adults, we know a lot more than we let on sometimes ;). You think that children disobeying their parents is a recent innovation? You think that parents don’t know what’s going on ever? I’ll give you a little hint: sometimes, the best way to learn a lesson is not by getting caught, but by getting burned. Kids are going to find ways to do what they are intent on doing one way or another. Making things off-limits is not always the answer.
For example: tell a kid they can’t use the internet and one of two things will happen – either the kid will find a way to use it anyway, with NO hope of proper supervision or training, or they won’t, but when they are old enough to make the decision by themselves, they will be totally unprepared to deal with what they are doing.
I would rather ATTEMPT to teach my kids moderation and proper use than both open the temptation to the forbidden and render them helpless and uninformed when it is out of my hands. Not to mention that proper use of technology is increasingly a prerequisite for success in the job market (not to say that this necessitates giving every child a cell phone, but you probably [hopefully] can see what I’m getting at).
yashrus, I expect that you either walk everywhere you go or use a horse-and-buggy. Surely you wouldn’t want to go through the nisayon of using electricity either.
Nowhere in the Torah does it say that scientific and technological advancement is antithetical to Judaism.
Brooklyn19:
By your own admission, you are barely out of your teenage years. You probably should not be telling people to face the “real world,” which you have very little contact with.
Illini is representative of my Alma Mater, and ’07 was the year I created this account. I’m sad to report that I’m not all that creative.
Curious, you can looks at: http://www.marathonguide.com/
I run as well. It’s a great de-stresser and energy booster. If you are looking for interesting new places and routes to run, check out http://www.mapmyrun.com
And I definitely agree with the poster who said not to skimp on shoes. If you have inadequate shoes, you can end up with serious problems with your feet, ankles, knees, and legs. It’s worth it to keep the running healthy and safe.
And don’t forget to stretch!
Thanks for the clarification and link Feif Un, much appreciated. I do know people who order flavored drink, but I can’t think of any who hold strictly by the cRc over OU.
labochur:
Feif, that’s interesting, because I know many who hold only by the cRc in Chicago who will get a plain coffee at Starbucks.
For what it’s worth, there are a number of locations in Chicago where the employees are incredibly well-versed about what is kosher and what is not, and things similar to azi’s story happen frequently. I might be wrong, but I believe in the stores situated in or right near heavily Jewish communities, management actually “trains” the staff to be able to identify kosher and nonkosher products. Really quite crazy, but then again, knowing your customers and providing accurate service keeps people coming back for more…
To get Nashim started, I will also, bli neder, do Nazir
Can I get my name added to the list for Sanhedrin, por favor?
(Perhaps the YW Mod should move his list to the top, to make it easier for folks to see at first glance).
Yishar Koach, mdlevine
Sanhedrin, will pick up another if I can make a firm commitment.
Edit: this is not to say that one *must* celebrate, it is only to say that there is certainly no problem with those who see fit to celebrate the history of our country.
anon:
From what I know of corn kugels, they probably would not freeze well. However, they do tend to last longer than usual in the fridge.
Will Hill:
Daas Torah would disagree. R’ Moshe says:
On the issue of joining with those who think that Thanksgiving is like a holiday to eat a meal: since it is clear that according to their religious law books this day is not mentioned as a religious holiday and that one is not obligated in a meal [according to Gentile religious law] and since this is a day of remembrance to citizens of this country, when they came to reside here either now or earlier, halacha sees no prohibition in celebrating with a meal or with the eating of turkey. One sees similar to this in Kiddushin 66 that Yanai the king made a party after the conquest of kochlet in the desert and they ate vegetables as a remembrance.
As someone who calls for adherence to Daas Torah regardless of whether it makes sense to you, I suggest you retract or modify that statement.
Will:
Then I guess I classify myself as “Jewish.” I live and daven in a modern orthodox community, I went to a Yeshiva, but I don’t ascribe to any “sect” so to say.
Looks like we have a Joseph McCarthy the II over here…
These classifications are useless, and lead only to sinas chinam.
It was considered normal in the Yeshivish environment I grew up in. It was not uncommon for a Rebbe to take his talmidim on a special trip to a baseball or basketball game once a year.
Chaimss:
Actually, the quote has been attributed to several people, most notably Mark Twain. By all accounts it is uncertain who actually said it, if it was actually said. The quote may even be a combination of several figures’ sayings.
“Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too.” – Voltaire
“The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.” – John Stuart Mill (from “On Liberty”)
Bored:
But if the Torah says the woman’s place is in the home, it’s in the home, no ifs ands or buts about it. /sarcasm
With day school tuition the way it is, and with the cost of having several children, there is rarely such a thing as a man working and the wife working “just to bring extra money in.”
Bogen:
Tell that to all the families where the father is learning in kollel all day who wouldn’t be able to EAT if the wife didn’t work.
anon for this:
It’s not so in the UK. You will see a lot more exposed skin or what we would consider “adult topics” on TV, but violence is more taboo.
GILA:
No, teenager is exactly correct. It is the attitudes that teenager pointed out that does indeed cause many to go “off the derech.” Would you rather ignore the problem than fix it?
Schwab:
And clearly so was the free-exercise clause…
Is it appropriate for women to leave the house without an escort? Without a burqa?
Wait wait wait. In the (now closed) bowling thread, people were so quick to say that though going into a bar to relax and have a kosher drink with a chavrusa may not be assur al pi halacha, it is WRONG in that it’s not a “kosher place to be” and violates the spirit of the law. Now, here, we have people saying that “al pi halacha” defines “right and wrong” in and of itself and that essentially there is no “spirit of the law.”
Make up your minds, rather than spouting off things when they suit you.
I wouldn’t say it’s easier to learn all day than make a living necessarily. If it were, why would that be a pro?
Will Hill:
What, exactly, does it mean? Why are you people so quick to jump down Obama’s throat for things that OTHER people are saying? Who cares what Farrakhan says? Was Obama standing on the stage next to him giving his approval? Did Obama say anything at all?
Saying that someone is dangerously connected to people based on the fact that they speak out in favor of them is tenuous at best. Otherwise, John McCain may have been dangerously affiliated with the KKK because you better believe they endorsed him over a black man. There’s a logical disconnect in some of your brains, and it baffles me.
Kitzur:
No, that’s not the point here – the point here is facebook. Even if I accepted your premise that “friendly-like situations cannot under any circumstances be gender-mixed,” that does not preclude the use of Facebook. You are missing a crucial step in which you prove that using Facebook automatically implicates gender-mixing. You can’t take that step because it is a non-sequitur.
No, David, I suppose I can’t say I’m terribly surprised. I like your equation, I may have to use that sometime!
A glass of club soda with a couple dashes of Angostura Bitters taken down will do wonders for an upset stomach.
Kitzur:
How is anything I said akin to “permitting McDonald’s?” Shame on you for such intellectual dishonesty.
When did I ever even say it was ok to have a mixed-gender friend on facebook? You have extrapolated a whole lot from my simple statement: just because some people do inappropriate things on facebook does not mean it is assur for all, or that all will do such things.
Joseph:
Once again, you make a blanket statement which is categorically false.
Avi:
Maybe YOU did, that doesn’t mean everyone will.
This is all circling back to the attitude of since SOME people use facebook inappropriately, ergo it is inappropriate for ANYONE to use facebook.
It’s a total non-sequitur, and it really doesn’t make any sense. There is the same potential for an inappropriate relationship to develop as there is walking down the street.
Kitzur:
No it is laziness and narishkeit. Anyone who substitutes such a check rather than an actual, in-depth examination of the potential shidduch’s character and middos has missed the boat and is part of the shidduch problem, not the solution, much like someone who automatically eliminates a candidate because his/her mother stacks dishes.
Sign me on
To the above, I know the line, though I appreciate you pointing it out to me. I was referring to the manner of its usage by David.
Such is the way on this site, but that really is a genius line about “toiveling with a sheretz in your hand.”
I like!
David:
Excellently said.