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sof davar – see my comment addressed to you about 14 comments back.
MW – The posuk in Tehilim 45:14 says “Kul kevodo bas melech penima, mimishbetzos zohov lvusho. This means “The prestige of the Jewish princess is her privacy – she stays within the confines of her home; she dresses (at home) in delightful clothes.” Note that this posuk, which refers to modesty of Bnos Yisroel, mentions two points: First, the tznua is predominantly at home, not in the public areas (see Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 13:11). Secondly, while at home she dresses delightfully. Although she is a great tznua, she nonetheless attaches importance to her appearance in the presence of her husband.
Kul kevodo bas melech penima is clear-cut halacha per Shulchan Aruch (73:1). Its also a clear-cut Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11), Rambam (Nedarim 12:11) Bereishis Rabah (8:12), Bereishis Rabah (45:5), Bereishis Rabah, (18:2), Medrash Tehilim (128:3), Kesef Mishneh, Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17), Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2), Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5) [per the Gemorah Nazir 12a], and the gemorah itself Mesechtes Yevomos 76.
I challenge you to name a godol whose wife had a business outside the home. (The Chofetz Chaim had a grocery in the back of his house that his wife tended.)
Doesn’t NY State law require it to?
Also, the parent body may have refused allowing their children to attend otherwise, and the hanhala felt it the lesser of two evils.
sof davar – still waiting… Thanks
BTW, on an older thread Dave Hirsch quoted the Debreciner Rov zt’l, from his Responsa Sefer – Be’er Moshe (Chelek 4, Siman 122)
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Dave’s rough interpretation was: although it is permitted Al Pi Halacha, one should refrain.
Igros Moshe, Even HaEzer 2:1
“My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies.”
Rav Moshe lived in the U.S. and wasn’t Chasidish. He proudly attributed his outlook and Torah ways to his not having had any secular studies or influence thereof.
Rav Elchonon and Rav Boruch Ber’s, as well as Rav Moshe Feinstein’s, lack of secular education did not result in any grease soiled clothing.
Moq –
“Again, it seems clear that one must kill oneself before killing someone else”
Don’t you mean allow oneself to be killed rather than killing someone else?
“I have wondered why the Poskim have a universal ban on Euthanasia; if suicide is permissible in the face of torture and certain death (an opinion held by many Poskim)”
Perhaps the poskim in question do not hold permissible suicide when facing certain death.
tomim tihye – I’m sorry to read about your shalom bayis issue.
Perhaps your husband and yourself should avoid ice cream altogether.
Who is Ittisa?
Are all of M&M’s products kosher?
gavra: Max & Mina’s is cholov yisroel? (You indicated you are makpid on CY.)
squeak: I’m sure you are not comparing the Gedolim’s disdain of secular studies curriculum’s to the behavior of the church or mosque.
Using a toothbrush – while having in mind to use your mouth for Torahdik purposes.
If you did it before, you can do it again. 🙂
Why spend a Yom Tov outside the kedusha of a yiddish home??
Parents, in-laws, or if they are too far (or otherwise impractical) you can use a local Rov or shul. There is always someone around you can go to.
“Does anyone know how the Gedolim of yesteryear marked this milestone?”
By remaining as engrossed in Torah study as they were the week before the “anniversary”, and the week after. No more, no less.
Sounds like your father has a good grasp and understanding of these matters!
Why, are “later” mekors chopped liver?
So far the earliest mekors mentioned on this thread alone are the Gemorah and Rashi.
holtzichfest, well said.
“They had to acquire the required knowledge BEFORE they got to sit on the Sanhedrin.”
That still fails to demonstrate the hamon hoam knew 70 languages or how to calculate the calendar or the other stuff mentioned. It just shows someone who expected or wanted to join the Sanhedrin (or Bais Din) had to first understand the 70 languages (or how to calculate the calendar, etc.)
sof davar – “i am in very close contact with my posek and i’ve seen many teshuvos about this, one is allowed to swim with ones wife. Period. End of story.”
You’ve seen many teshuvos regarding swimming with your wife? Please share these many teshuvos with us. Please specifically mention which teshuva is from whom (which posek or sefer), and specifically what each of these many teshuvos that you’ve seen paskens, as well as the specific shaila.
Yasher Koach
“HIE’s older brother”
Who is HIE?
He doesn’t have to prove that. The Sanhedrin knew 70 languages. That doesn’t mean the hamon hoam knew those languages. If someone wishes to posit that since the Sanhedrin knew 70 languages (or knew how to calculate the calendar, etc.) so did the hamon hoam know it as well, YOU have to show that. The Sanhedrin or Beis Din having that knowledge doesn’t demonstrate the hamon hoam did as well.
SJS: In Monsey?
“In any event, I disagree with him in his entirety on the subject.”
Should this discussion not be about the sources, rather than what *we* feel or “agree”?
If you were discussing what the sources have to say (even if there was a disagreement about *what* the sources say), that would be more understandable.
Garry Kasparov?
You wouldn’t know, while playing, she is using DB’s moves – so you wouldn’t know to exploit them.
At least you weren’t running his moves against Deep Blue, and playing Deep Blue’s positions…
Instead of blaming the parents, perhaps we need to blame ourselves for our childhood.
It is rude and a chillul Hashem to greet the opposite gender, even if not an issur.
Does Rashi interpret the Gemara as refering to chess when it mentions nardeshir in Kesuvos 61b?
The Wolf will be happy to hear this.
Dave Hirsch:
‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’ is only applicable to married offenders. Unmarried offenders also need to be dealt with. Hence the aforementioned ideas.
Additionally, although (as you said) ‘Yotzah Blo Kesuba’ is a valid and necessary punishment for married offenders, it would prove insufficient. This is due to the fact that these brazen offenders would likely resort to non-Jewish courts (in another violation of halacha) to pursue their divorce case and receive monies they are un-entitled to under Torah law and halacha – as properly administered by Beis Din.
That is the exception to the rule, where Torah study is concerned it takes priority, so sometimes the wife goes to work as a result. Even though that part isnt ideal, it is well worth it to enable Torah study. In any event, statistically I believe you are incorrect and most frum wives do not work (full time for sure) outside the home.
How did your 1990 (1989?) car last so long?
No, according to the Torah and halacha, Kibud Av V’Eim comes first for the husband. If his mother and his wife ask for a drink, he needs to get it for his mother first. For the wife, she needs to get it for her husband first.
kosch – not at all. We can equally include other clear-cut issurei d’orayso. Pritzus is a clear-cut issur. Since there was a discussion of what actually constitutes pritzus, I used a very basic issue.
koach – I was limiting to a clear-cut issur d’oraysa. Other issues in that category too can be included in this tochocho of folks who were lovingly advised and nevertheless blatantly continued to sin – and in public to boot.
y89 – You are wrong. There is a reasonable chance (not a certainty) that if someones name was in the “HaPrutza” section, every week, of the paper, she would take corrective action.
This is what the Sefer Hachinuch mandates.
For the umpteenth time, if their knees and elbows are covered in public at all times and positions, they would not be subject to the public tochocho I am describing.
y89 – Apparently you haven’t been following the discussion. The Sefer Hachinuch mandates public shaming as part of tochocho, if the sinner remains unrepentant.
Wolf – The proposal related to knees and elbows, insofar as the public tochocho is concerned. The discussion only relates to the public tochocho, as defined in the Sefer Hachinuch.
I would propose just that. Uncovered in public at any time or position warrants action.
Let’s start with that. I think the message will get through loud and clear even using just that minimal standard.
It was cited earlier in the thread. Sefer HaChinuch perek 239. If they are unrepentant after being properly advised, to publicly shame them.
Uncovered knees or elbows is a standard.
It is actually the mitzvah of tochacho.
And lets not use the cop out since there are different standards we should not do anything. Uncovered knees, whether all the time or when in various positions, is beyond the pale.
It was a Shakespearean joke. (i.e. they don’t teach Talmud in chasidish girls schools.)
Someone made a suggestion above. Not a bad idea, though perhaps not drastic enough. This problem is so serious, that perhaps a unrepentant sinner should be publicly shamed with their names in the paper.
just last nite i was very disturbed by this obvious breach in tznius. i was at a wedding of a schoolmate, and i was disgusted to see how some guests were dressed. these girls, some still in high school, others married with their own kids, all come from fine, FRUM families, and their skirts were tight and above their knees, their blouses/shirts were very flashy…
g2g but it was very disturbing
That is very disturbing.
The problem is getting worse and worse. It is time for drastic action.
“I don’t greet ANY people that don’t know me”
Where were YOU brought up!?!
“If my hub wouldn’t speak extra with me, then I would be very hurt and probably divorce him.”
There is no basis for a wife to divorce her husband for this reason, so you would have no grounds for divorce. (Besides, he has a mishna for not talking EXTRA.)
But what if he is “talking Torah”?
“Does it matter?”
Yes, it matters. If you are talking Torah, you don’t need teshuva. It is a kappara all its own.
Wolf: I would hope you are at least talking Torah during leining.
He didnt compare them to pigs for being outside for a constructive purpose. He compared it to those who are non-tzanua.