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dbrim, the people of this thread are not ignorant or self-hating, the Israeli government is.
The only one who ignored the first Rashi and declared Israel an occupation is…
Israel itself!When some goyim had “טענות” on them, instead of opening up a chumash (which every Christian and Muslim (l’havdil) believes in), they decided to give up land. THEY declared that this land is no longer a part of Eretz Yisroel (r”l). Then they continued to keep the military there, thus declaring that they are an occupation.
We, who learn chumash, know that Eretz Yisroel is the land gifted to us by Hashem, and is completely not dependent on the decisions and proclamations of a government of (majority) Jewish people, the UN in 1948, or the US. No one has the right to take it away from us, and there is no such thing as occupying a land that always belonged to us.
If only the Israeli government would realize the same thing.“Are we to expect a frum man to be so fickle as to have no control of where his eyes roam?!”
As a frum woman, you clearly know nothing about men (frum or not).
Also, often you are victimizing yourself by thinking that the complaints are coming by men who feel affected by women’s behavior. We men like to complain about EVERYTHING. Whenever we see something that seems to be an infringement on halacha or hashkafa, we like to make a whole tumult about it. Whether it is being done by women, men, children, politicians, or the government – we always have big טענות and start threads about it, etc.
Next time you see a man complaining about tznius, don’t think it’s a personal attack on you, realize that it’s just another halacha that he feels was violated that he has to shout about.
These two posts were approved in the wrong order:
Yserbius123,
Actually, I think I understand what you are saying. They don’t call it Israel but there is no real independent government there, and the territory is being occupied by Israeli forces, so it is technically “occupied territory.”
The Rashba writes (שו”ת ח”א סתקפ”א):
מצוה לפרסם עושי מצוהUnfortunately, nowadays, people’s decisions are largely affected by how the rich people behave. Just look at the power that Elon Musk and Bill Gates wield on matters like Covid and free speech. People respect their opinions.
When people see rich people give tzedaka, it inspires them to follow suit.
המעשה הוא העיקר – What will cause more people to give tzedaka? A plaque? Then make a plaque.
[This is similar to the idea of making a big deal out of Torah learning, with siyumim etc., because this shows that we value Torah. קנאת סופרים תרבה חכמה, people get inspired when we show the great value of learning. So it is with all mitzvos, including tzedaka]
מנחם שמו
Yserbius123,
Did USA occupy Afghanistan? Keeping the peace to protect your citizens and save lives is not called occupation.
Especially when it is in some non-independent terrorist “state”.I don’t understand the logic to say that “men will anyways hear female singers” –
I assume we are discussing a frum singer who dresses tzniusdik. Why must she dress tzniusdik? People will anyways see immodesty!Obviously, every person is responsible for themselves to behave tzniusdik in public. The same should seemingly apply to singing –
“קול באשה ערוה, שנאמר כי קולך ערב ומראך נאוה” (Brachos 24a).The comparison between a CD and YouTube is ridiculous.
On the other hand, @lakewhut has a very important point: Jewish female singers can be a good influence for Jewish girls instead of the other shmutz on youtube.
Of course, like everything in the life of a frum Yid, every singer must consult her personal rov who can inspect the pros and cons and rule accordingly. I assume that they do so, and therefore there is really no need for us to tell them what to do.
ujm,
Wow, that was beautiful!
I was slightly distressed by the sharpness of the argument above, so I was pleasantly surprised to see this heartfelt comment.
You have inspired me to learn from you in my own life.
Thank you for this valuable lesson.
If we all embrace this attitude, especially now in the 9 days, we can be sure that Moshiach is coming very soon.
RebE, I was too modest to quote your vort due to the ושל גבוה part 😊
@common,
“We dont know why and to ask why in my opinon is kifera”
As I brought from the Gemara in Menachos.
@Kuvult, thanks for lightening the atmosphere (even if it had to be macabre humor)@common saychel, I was just quoting you!
Sometimes we are quicker to point out how someone else needs to fix himself before seeing the same problem in ourselves.
As the Baal Shem Tov explains the reason why Nosson Hanovi gave Dovid Hamelech a mashal for the story of Bassheva, and only after Dovid gave a ruling in that case was he able to apply it to himself.
(הובא בלקוטי מהר”ן קמא קי”ג. וראה גם המבואר בלקוטי שיחות כ”ק אדמו”ר מליובאוויטש ח”ד ע’ 1208)@common, I’m going off topic in order to protect the readers from the “PURE loshen hora” of this thread. 😊
Some things are just completely incomprehensible, like the sudden death of an innocent 13-year-old bochur while bringing Yidden closer to Yiddishkeit.
At times like these, we must remember the Gemara about Moshe’s question to the Ribbono Shel Olam when he saw the terrible fate of Rabbi Akiva:
אמר לפניו, רבש”ע זו תורה וזו שכרה
א”ל, שתוק כך עלה במחשבה לפני
מנחות כט, ב-mobico,
“Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, the term Ahavas Chinam was coined by R’ Kook ZT”L”
This is indeed a widespread misconception. It is first found in the talks of earlier chassidishe rebbes.
See talks of the Kozmirer Rebbe (Rav Yechezkel Taub): כמו שחורבן בית המקדש היה על ידי שנאת חינם, כן לתקן זה צריך אהבת חינם, שכל אחד מישראל יאהב את חבירו בחינם
This was also quoted by his grandson the Modzitzer Rebbe.This is also quoted in the name of the Ahavas Yisroel of Vizhnitz.
“I did not know that it was used by the Lubavitcher Rebbe.”
Yes, he used the term many times. Another example (in connection with Rosh Chodesh Menachem-Av, yahrtzeit of Aharon Hakohen):
:בכך נוספת הדגשה מיוחדת בקשר בין חורבן בית המקדש בחודש אב ומיתת אהרן בר”ח מנחם אב: הסיבה לחורבן בית המקדש השני הייתה החטא של שנאת חנם. והתיקון הוא באותו עניין: הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום ורודף שלום – אהבת חנם
(לקוטי שיחות חי”ח ע’ 412)But anyway, obviously, I agree with you that whatever we call it, the ikar is to actually love every Jew!
mobico, the מקור for the chiluk is from the fact that there is a chiluk in regards to שנאה:
When the Gemara describes the reason why the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed, it doesn’t just say that it was because of שנאת ישראל or שנאת אחים (like the lashon haposuk לא תשנא את אחיך), rather it emphasizes that this was שנאת חינם. See יומא ט, א.
Obviously אהבת ישראל is pretty much the same as אהבת חינם. But when using the latter term, we are EMPHASIZING that just as they hated other Jews who did nothing bad to them, so too we love other Jews even if they did nothing good for us.
This term was used by many gedolim in recent generations.
For explanation, see for example, the Lubavitcher Rebbe here:
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15944&pgnum=338If you don’t want to use the term, no problem. But try not to get irked.
“Ahavas Yisrael is much more powerful than Ahavas Chinam”
mobico, when the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed, the Gemara tells us it was due to Sinas Chinam.
In other words, not only did they hate Jews (Sinas Yisroel), but it was for no reason whatsoever (he didn’t steal from him, he didn’t hurt him, just pure senseless hate).
The way to be מכפר for this and bring the Geula is through the opposite:
Not only to love Jews (Ahavas Yisroel) because he did something nice for you, or because he is a mentsch, or a perfect shomer Torah u’mitzvos (or wears the same type of hat as you), rather Ahavas Chinam – for no reason, just because he is a Jew.mobico,
I understand that you are just trying to bring out the point that there can be a great tzaddik whose son strays from his path, but please, don’t compare current OTD kids to Menasheh! Have some compassion! Do you know what these children go through these days?
The Chazon Ish writes that it’s impossible to compare the כופרים of the olden days to people who go off the derech now, due to the unique darkness and concealment of Elokus that exists in our time.
Instead, we must be mekarev them with love and show them the light of Yiddishkeit as much as possible.
(יורה דעה סי’ ב סט”ז)If this is how it was in the time of the Chazon Ish (when the Am Yisroel was full of bochurim who were true lamdonim in Yeshiva who went after the enlightenment etc.), how much more so in our time when the darkness and ignorance is so much greater, חושך כפול ומכופל.
If כל ישראל יש להם חלק בעולם הבא, even including true sinners and רשעים, how much more so these poor lost souls who are suffering from the darkness of almost 2000 years of golus.
(רמב”ם הלכות תשובה פ”ג ה”ה: וכן כל הרשעים שעונותיהן מרבים דנין אותן כפי חטאיהם ויש להן חלק לעולם הבא שכל ישראל יש להם חלק לעולם הבא אף על פי שחטאו)Let’s treat them with the true compassion and sympathy that they need, and with Ahavas Chinam we will bring them back to their heritage, and most importantly the Geula for all Yidden.
מנחם שמו
MDG, David Duke is an extreme example of extreme.
How about Marjorie Taylor Greene?Mod,
The story that was removed from my post actually brings out a beautiful point, and there is nothing wrong with it. In your opinion…
If I remember correctly this was an actual מעשה שהיה that was mentioned on Halacha Headlines (last year?). I will try to look into it and repost with more accuracy.
I am shocked that from all other posts, this was chosen to be removed!?!?
I’m pretty shocked you don’t understand why it’s a problem.
I don’t remember who said this vort,
Well that’s good, it’s awful motzei shem rah.
Avram,
1) I’ve seen this practice in Young Israels and other MO shuls.
2) Why were you at a conservative or reform service?
3) Do they actually sing “bib bam”!? I always thought it was a children’s song!
Reb Eliezer, isn’t it ironic? This thread is about Talmidei Chachomim’s children being less involved in Torah, and you are telling a story of a poshete yid whose son is a great talmid chochom! 😊
The Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote in Hayom Yom (25 Shevat):
Saying Tehillim every day crucially affects the one saying it, his children, and his grandchildren.24 Shevat:
The Tzemach Tzedek once said: If you would know the power of Tehillim and its effect in the highest heavens, you would recite it constantly. The kapitelach of Tehillim break through all barriers and ascend higher and higher.The Frierdiker Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rayatz) writes that the world stands on the poshute Yidden who say Tehillim despite not understanding the words. (Likkutei Diburim)
מנחם שמו
One of the main innovations of the Baal Shem Tov was the approach to the “poshute Yid.”
In his time many Talmidei Chachomim looked down at poshuteh Yidden who couldn’t receive a proper education and they were considered a lower class that didn’t deserve any of the privileges of the Talmidei Chachomim.
The Baal Shem Tov changed this by putting great emphasis on the holiness and purity of the poshute Yid, how sometimes his sincere words of Tehillim are more dear to Hashem than all the Torah learning of a great scholar.
The Baal Shem Tov embraced and welcomed the poshute Yidden, and inspired them with Ein Yaakov and stories of tzaddikim, and many of his opponents couldn’t handle this and continued to degrade them.
מנחם שמו
Always,
Obviously, the aforementioned belief is not NEEDED to be shomer shabbos, as I clarified in my last post.
To the best of my knowledge, the Torah doesn’t say that we rest in Shmita because Hashem rested on the seventh day. [Although this may be explained in other places, it is not the explicit reason given in Torah]. Whereas regarding weekly Shabbos this reason is stated explicitly in Torah.
[Maybe this is actually proof that ששת ימי בראשית are 24-hour days. If not, the Torah could have said regarding Shmita, “work for six years and rest in the seventh, because Hashem created the world in six years and rested in the seventh.”
After all, days, months, and years are just תקופות and shouldn’t be taken literally.
(This is obviously not a strong proof because we can’t dictate what the Torah “should have said,” but I’m just turning it back on you.)]מנחם שמו
@ujm,
“These are mostly nochrim” – and therefore you should pray for their destruction instead of their teshuva?
Maybe you’re a bad faster, but next Yom Kippur, try to follow along in Maftir Yonah.
besalel, indeed there are gedolim who disagree with Rabbi Miller’s approach, but that’s no excuse for bashing such a gadol.
מנחם שמו
ubiquitin, I’m happy that you liked the story!
You’re right, even if the 7 days of creation wouldn’t be literal, we would still have to keep Shabbos every seven days (nice example you gave from sukkah!).
There is definitely no worry of people actually not keeping Shabbos because of this (the story was just for comical relief. Although I could imagine someone coming up with this סברה just to excuse himself, but that doesn’t make a difference).The point I was trying to make (as I have seen written by gedolim) was that just as we take the 7 days of work literally, there is no reason not to take the 7 days of creation literally, unless we would have a true Torah’dike reason to think so.
The fact that currently there are scientific theories that “prove” otherwise shouldn’t make us learn apologetic interpretations in the simple pshat of the Torah, Midrash, Gemara, Rashi, etc.
(especially according to the Malbim (and many others) which Reb Eliezer brought)However, your point is true that there are times when Torah tells us that something is a משל, and I wouldn’t say that believing this regarding ששת ימי בראשית is כפירה.
מנחם שמו
Correction:
Hopefully, just as it was by the first golus that just when they were holding the lowest level of tumaah (שער המ”ט) Hashem took them out of מצרים, so may it be with our final golus:
Society has sunken to such lows, let’s daven that these people do teshuvah and stop this abomination, and we will also do teshuva for all of the aveiros that we do, and we will immediately be zoche to the גאולה נצחית שאין אחרי’ גלות when all pain, suffering and illness will be removed from the world, and we will joyfully serve Hashem properly. Amen!
[Why daven for punishment when you can daven for teshuva!?!?]
(מקורות:
מ”ט שערי טומאה: ז”ח ר”פ יתרו
סוף ישראל לעשות תשובה בסוף גלותן ומיד הן נגאלין: הלכות תשובה פ”ז ה”ה
גאולה נצחית שאין אחרי’ גלות: תוד”ה ה”ג ונאמר – פסחים קטז, ב
יתמו חטאים ולא חוטאים: ברכות י, א)מנחם שמו
This 24 hour argument is out of context.
The discussion is not how Adam Harishon built his clock/sundial (if he divided the day into 24 parts or 12 parts or 2 parts), the discussion is if ששת ימי בראשית were 100 billion years (ר”ל) or six days.
Apologetics vs. Literal understanding of chumash, midrash, gemara, rashi, etc.
I still wonder: Do the apologists celebrate Shabbos with their families every 7 billion years?
I once met a staunch מאמין in science who didn’t keep Shabbos ר”ל. When I asked him why, he said that of course he keeps Shabbos! But according to the orthodox Jews he spoke to, the six days of creation cannot be taken literally, so they must have been billions of years.
“Don’t worry,” he said, “today is still Sunday for me. In 6 billion years I’ll start preparing for Shabbos!”
When I tried explaining him that Shabbos is definitely literal, he argued:
“Don’t lie to me! I know the 10 commandments: Work for six days and rest on the seventh, BECAUSE G-d created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. Whatever 7 days means in creation is what it means with regards to Shabbos!”
[מעשה שהי’ יכול להיות]מנחם שמו
yungermanS, maybe you should go into fortune telling!
Please tell me, what divine punishment is in store for me?Maybe you can tell me which specific aveira I did to get my finger chopped off when I was a little boy?
[Don’t be afraid to plead the fifth. It’s called שתוק כך עלה במחשבה לפני” (מנחות כט, ב)”]
“I differentiate between the Yidden and the Goyim who think they’re Jewish.”
That is indeed very important. As the Lubavitcher Rebbe says, when a goy is told by a “rabbi” that he is a Yid, not only does it bring a terrible churban for the Jewish people, but also for the goy himself (e.g., a goy who keeps Shabbos is חייב מיתה).Last week, I met someone on the street who excitedly told me that he is Jewish and he wants to learn more about his heritage.
Before putting on Tefillin with him, I asked him to clarify his roots. It came out he was genetically %59 “Jewish” from his father’s side.
I politely explained him that Judaism does not consider him Jewish, and that he must serve G-d as a righteous gentile (sheva mitzvos).
He walked away quite dejected, but much safer than if he wouldn’t have known, חס ושלום.Boruch Hashem, it is usually easy to be מברר if someone is halachically Jewish or not (aside from when it comes to marriage when we are more מחמיר to be %100 sure).
@coffee addict,
Yes, my name is based on the Gemara (ירושלמי ברכות פ”ב ה”ד) that says that Moshiach’s name is Menachem.
(וכ”ה באיכ”ר פ”א, נא. משא”כ בסנהדרין צח, ב דשם גרסינן מנחם בן חזקיה)I chose this profile name for two reasons:
1) Since my name is actually Menachem (get it? מנחם שמו?)
2) It’s nice to remind myself about Moshiach when I’m online (every word makes a difference – “צריך כל אדם שיראה עצמו כל השנה כלה כאלו חציו זכאי וחציו חיב. וכן כל העולם חציו זכאי וחציו חיב . . עשה מצוה אחת הרי הכריע “את עצמו ואת כל העולם כלו לכף זכות וגרם לו ולהם תשועה והצלה see Rambam Hilchos Teshuva 3:4)“henceforth it is proof that the rebbe can be moshiach?”
Maybe I’m trying to prove that I can be Moshiach…
[Regarding the names of Moshiach listed in Sanhedrin, the Rebbe’s father Reb Levi Yitzchok writes that all the opinions are true – כל הדעות אמת הם ואלו ואלו דא”ח (לקוטי לוי”צ על מארז”ל ע’ קו)]“I do not have my own opinion”
If you look at what I wrote, I continued that you should ask your rov, which you replied that you did.“I very much deal with…”
Nu, I guess we have a מחלוקת במציאות.
My heart goes out to those holy Yidden who you “very much deal with”. May Hashem bless them and protect them.מנחם שמו
I wrote:
“Are you ready to (theoretically) let a fellow Yid die (חס ושלום) because you chose (on your own) to follow a certain opinion?”
You wrote:
“accusing Reb Moshe, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, and the numerous gedolei poskim of “theoretically let a fellow Yid die (חס ושלום) because Reb Moshe, the Kitzur, etc. chose (on their own) to have their opinion””The difference is obvious: THEY are entitled to their own opinion. YOU are NOT entitled to your own opinion.
I don’t know who you are, but I assume that you are not a posek like the aforementioned.“Yes, absolutely I have clarified with my Rov and Posek … they do not have the din of תינוק שנשבה.”
I wonder what qualifications the rov gave you to know if the person is a תינוק שנשבה… Unless maybe he holds that the very idea doesn’t apply anymore, after all, it was only in the days of the Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, and the Chazon Ish that there were plenty of Jews who never received an education about what Shabbos is. Nowadays, every Jewish child learns all about Shabbos, and chooses to violate it anyway. (!?)
Or maybe תינוק שנשבה only applies to close relatives?“The halacha is absolutely clear”
No it is not. For example, I brought several halachic giants who disagree (Mishna Berura, Chazon Ish, Lubavitcher Rebbe). And there are many more. I would say רובם ככולם of poskim hold that today’s estranged Yidden are a very unique case that must be treated very differently than the classic דינים of מומר and מחלל שבת בפרהסיה.“if you were alone … would you save him?”
No. (in the hypothetical case that I would be completely certain that it wouldn’t become known)“A very significant portion (very possibly a majority) of non-Orthodox “Jews” (secular, Reform, Conservative) that self-identify as Jewish, are in fact non-Jewish.”
Again, this is a lie. The vast majority of “non-Orthodox” Jews are halachically Jewish. As I mentioned before, I deal very much with these types of Jews (presumably more than you), and most of them can point to a definitely Jewish maternal bubby or elter bubby, etc. (who is often just as frum as your own bubby. Assuming yours was frum).
You are using your ignorance to cast a libel on millions of holy Jews.“Or the false conversions in Israel of Russians and Ethiopians”
Any conversions by a non-halachic entity are a terrible tragedy.מנחם שמו
If the six days of creation weren’t literal 24 hour days, then maybe also Shabbos isn’t literally every seven 24-hour days? Maybe we should rest every 7 thousand years? Or every 7 million years? Or billion?
ששת ימים תעבוד . .ויום השביעי שבת . . כי ששת ימים עשה ה’ . . וינח ביום השביעי
(ראה פרקי דרבי אליעזר פ”ג ואילך; מדרש רבה בראשית; סנהדרין לח, ב. ובכמה מקומות)
מנחם שמו
Always, question out of ignorance: Which Rashi? Which rishonim?
@Always, talking about Shlomo Hamelech and educating one’s son with the rod, let’s not forget what Shlomo’s son Rechavam said about the rod:
“אבי יסר אתכם בשוטים ואני איסר אתכם בעקרבים”
If you have any memory of what you learned in school, you remember how well that worked out.
Balance is always important.[I just noticed that the source is: מלכים יב יד.
Ironically, the source for ירק ירק is: במדבר יב יד]Rabbi YY Jacobson chazzered a beautiful vort of the Belzer Rebbe:
A famous educator in Eretz Yisroel asked the Belzer Rebbe why the style of education changed in this generation, what was wrong with the simple פאטש from previous generations?
The Belzer Rebbe opened up a chumash, and showed him the possuk (במדבר יב יד):
“ואביה ירוק ירק – her father SPITS at her”In Targum, which was written a thousand years later, it says:
“אלו אבוהה מנזף נזיף בה – if her father would CHASTISE her”In Rashi, which was written a thousand years later, it says:
“אם אביה הראה לה פנים זועפות – if her father SHOWED AN ANGRY FACE to her”Nowadays, a thousand years later, concluded the Belzer Rebbe, we must even be careful with our facial expressions when dealing with children.
@ujm,
“EVEN IF…”
You are absolutely right.“Science can be, and often is, overturned.”
As it was, with the theory of relativity, flat earth, etc.At the same time, it is even more ridiculous when the people who try to reinterpret the Torah to fit with the science are עמי הארץ in science as well.
Hashem helped the scientists discover new theories that support the Torah, and if we take notice of this, it can give us tremendous chizzuk that also in other areas where current science seems to contradict Torah (e.g., age of the universe, etc.) – we shouldn’t be ashamed to believe in the Torah’s view.
מנחם שמו
“If we don’t realize that we are in galus and do something about it, we will be kept there.”
Hence the need to open up our eyes. This is a big and important avoda
Avram in Md,
Nu nu, point remains the same.
The ikar is that we try to stay away from פירושים דחוקים in Torah and apologetics, especially when אין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו is not a contradiction to modern science.
מנחם שמו
YungermanS, OP seems to be looking for a place to stay in the city of Lakewood. Brooklyn is in NY, quite a distance from the city of Lakewood. OP did not write “עיר הקודש”.
If you want to discuss the holiness of Lakewood, I would suggest that you go back to this thread:
מנחם שמו