Menachem Shmei

Without a rebbe, chabad continues to fall into disarray even in its basic rabbinic functions. Recently, a bunch of rabbis broke off from the Crown Heights Beis Din and made their own kashrus agency, which now certifies Shor Habor, a meat company which i anyways avoided due to the possibility of god-in-a-body worshippers doing the shechitah.

What do politics involving a Badatz have anything to do with the Rebbe? The Rebbe never ran the Crown Heights Beis Din!

Even before gimmel Tammuz there were incidents of politics between Chabad mosdos, and the Rebbe refused to get involved in the nitty gritty fighting because he said it’s not his job. A Rebbe isn’t a rosh hakahal who gets involved in people’s arguments. That’s what a din torah is for.

Are there no other kashrus politics or controversies happening right now besides for in Lubavitch!?

Are there no controversies or politics in any other Jewish communities which HAVE “living rebbes/rabbanim”!?

That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.

ARSo, I’m very curious. How exactly does this play out?

Like you’re on the subway or in shul or walking down the street, and a Lubavitcher bochur/yungerman/woman/child approaches you, strikes up conversation, and says: “By the way, I assume you know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, because the Rambam says….”

Is that what happens?

Or are you the one who usually brings it up, asking a Lubavitcher, “Are you one of those guys who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach? Why? What’s your proof?”

Because while I’ve seen the latter take place COUNTLESS times, I have never witnessed the former take place (and I’ve participated in MANY “hafatza” missions to non-Lubavitch shuls and yeshivos), and I wonder how common it really is in the last 20 years or so.

The issue with the OP is that he’s jumping into a huge ocean of arguments between gedolei yisroel that went on for a LONG time, and picking all of the arguments of one of the sides and showing how obvious it is that they are correct.

My favorite line which demonstrates this point:
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan [ZTL, ZYA] wrote….
This also refutes The Three Oaths.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan was a GENIUS, and his words should be listened to.

Aha, so we have all of these interesting arguments, but because “the genius of all time” implies a refutation of the three oaths, this must be the final ruling.

Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.

Just gonna jump in quickly to clear up some completely misconstrued facts:

Chabadpedia is in no way a quasi-official Lubavitch website. It is FULL of mistakes and inaccuracies.
It has the same level of credibility as ANY wikipedia page.

Arso, if you want, YOU YOURSELF can write things on chabadpedia and you will not be stopped! I have corrected mistakes every now and then and no qualifications were needed. I just pressed “edit” and made the changes.

[I wasn’t following the conversation so I have no idea which Chabadpedia page you’re referring to, but I just wanted to put the reality out there]

I loved the YWN headline:

“HaGaon HaRav Landau: “Whoever doesn’t want to vote shouldn’t put on Tefillin””

One of the best headlines yet!

P.S. There is a great video of Rav Landau (from an earlier election?) where some askanim try to convince him to endorse the election, and he sternly sends them away with strong ridicule.

mod,

Sorry for the let down. I’m actually impressed with myself that I managed to fool you for so long! 😃

P.S. As an aside, I hope you noticed that I didn’t use the idea of “defenders” any less mockingly then I used the idea of “attackers”…
There is a vort that’s said in the name of a great tzaddik who lived before the times of the Baal Shem Tov who was involved in heavy machlokes with another great tzaddik (I won’t say his name because I’m not sure if I’m quoting it correctly, but the point is definitely true in many cases): ‘Only on the first day our machlokes was לשם שמים, from after that it was personal’.
I think this is definitely true in this machlokes. (–This is in response to the mod’s statement about “pretending it isn’t okay for people to defend Torah values”…)

Mod, “Gosh, until you reverted to the beloved “haters” statement I actually valued your perspective and saw you as above the PR stuff. What a let down.”

I should have said “same opponents expressing their opposition and defenders expressing their defense.”

My point was that we pretty much know that some people here take strong issue with Lubavitch and they will probably continue their attacks no matter what, and others here are Lubavitchers (myself included), and they will probably continue their defense no matter what.

attacks, hate, different versions of the same PR point. Pretending it isn’t okay for people to defend Torah values, on both “sides of the aisle”  is a PR stunt. 

What a let down
Nothing new from what has been going on in hundreds of pages of CR threads of rehashing this topic.

ARSo,

Menachem, welcome back!

Thank you! Busy times, not sure how long often I can pop in.

Regarding your points in response to my post, I guess we see different circles in Chabad.

Now why would the LR stop someone identifying in a manner which would allow him to feel the part fully. The answer that I was given is, as I wrote, to attract others to Lubavich.

The idea of changing levush is a bit more complicated. There were some whom the Rebbe permitted to change their levush and others whom he didn’t. I haven’t yet seen any places where the Rebbe addressed this idea outright (it’s mainly rumors), so I’m not so clear on this, but my understanding of the reasoning for not allowing to change was:

1) Lubavitch was never very into the concept of levush, to an extent it was looked at as a chitzoniusdike idea, and the Rebbe didn’t want people to feel that the way you dress decides if you are Lubavitch or not (people shouldn’t feel that now that they wear a different kind of hat they are considered an official Lubavitcher and potur from avoda…)

2) Often, similar to new baalei teshuva, the family of a new Lubavitcher was very nervous about the change and often something so blatant as changing one’s garments could set off bitter family strife.

3) It is indeed possible that another reason was as ARSo wrote, that the Rebbe felt that by keeping the levush they would have an easier time relating to those from their previous sect, thus making it easier for that individual to do hafatzas hamaayanos, which has been a main focus of the Lubavitcher derech since the times of the Alter Rebbe (originating already from the Baal Shem Tov with chassidus haklolis).

It’s interesting to note that when chassidim came from Russia, many of them were also instructed by the Rebbe not to change their levush from a kasket to a fedora (e.g. the iconic Reb Mendel Futerfas).

Another related incident: Artist Boruch Nachshon joined Chabad from a modern Israeli family in the 50s. Before his chassuna, his mashpia advised him to begin wearing a hat and kapote, but his family (kippa seruga style) didn’t want him to. The Rebbe wrote to him (14 Tammuz 5722):
פשוט שאין זה ענין כלל לעורר רוגז (ועל אחת כמה וכמה – מחלוקת) בדבר הלבוש בעת החופה והחתונה, ושנואה המחלוקת כו’ וגדול השלום.
Since then he wore a french barrett instead of a classic Chabad hat.

(Again, aside from the last story, I haven’t seen anything written about this, so they are just my theories or rumors that I’ve heard. I’ll try to do more research on the matter)

I think Moschiach will mint bitcoins.

I completely agree.

As a matter of fact, I will ONLY accept a Moshiach who mines bitcoins (to answer all those who have kept asking me who I would accept as Moshiach).

This thread (beginning with the tunnel incident and continuing with the perpetual discussion about the Rebbe being Moshiach) reminds me of this story that I recently read:

In a certain country the government had to keep the prisoners busy, and therefore they would be put to work every day all day.

On one floor, the job for the prisoners was to replace buttons on army uniforms, and on the other prisoners were in charge of removing buttons from old unusable uniforms to give to those putting buttons.

After a couple weeks, there was no more work left to do for the army, and the warden was worried that riots would break out if the prisoners were bored, so he came up with a brilliant idea.

Every day, the clothes would move from one floor to the other, some would put buttons and some would remove, on the same army suits… and that’s how they kept busy week after week, year after year….

PS when you have people like @83 who think what was done was 100% ok is all the proof that you need a living breathing rebbe.

common, no one has yet answered my question: What about other chassidusen that also have dumb people who do really dumb things like violence and fighting that makes it to the news etc. DESPITE having a living breathing rebbe? The only response I’ve gotten is “How dare you point out problems in any sect which is not Chabad.”

In the Rebbe’s opening address on Yud Shevat 73 years ago, he said that Chabad chassidus doesn’t believe in the concept of relying on the rebbe to do all the work for you. Every chossid has bechira chofshis to work on refining himself and behaving properly, or ch”v the opposite.

Here’s a free translation of that sicha (right after saying the first maamar, formally accepting the nesius):

Fellow Jews, listen now!

Traditionally, Chabad has demanded that every individual do his own avodah alone, instead of relying on the Rebbeim. This is the difference66 between the Polish school of Chassidus and the Chabad school of Chassidus. The former school has a non-literal interpretation of the verse,67 וצדיק באמונתו יחי-ה — “And a tzaddik lives with his faith”: “Do not read yichyeh but [in the causative mood] yechayeh.” I.e., it is the tzaddik who gives life to all those who are bound to him. We of Chabad, however, all have to do our own work alone, with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the body and with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the soul.

The Sages teach:68 הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים — “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven.” I am not (G‑d forbid) withdrawing from giving help to the degree that one’s capabilities allow. However, since “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven,” then if there is no independent individual avodah, what can be gained from giving out manuscripts [of Chassidus], singing niggunim, and saying LeChaim?

The Rebbe [Rayatz] used to warn chassidim against self-delusion. Every individual chassid himself has to transform the folly of the Other Side [i.e., of the forces of evil] and the seething disposition of his animal soul — to kedushah.69

Kuvult, I’m not sure what you mean or how it answers my point.
If you’re trying to say that an outsider to chassidus doesn’t see anything special about it? That’s pretty much what I responded to you previously about the outsider historian’s claim to frum Jews.

I’m not exactly sure where you saw in my response that I was offended

I’m sorry for assuming that.

your maligning a group of Jews on a public forum for selfish reasons was pretty disgusting.

Question: Do you feel that YWN’s reporting on the 770 tunnels was also maligning a group of Jews on a public forum and therefore pretty disgusting?

If not, why is reporting on the Ponevezh brawl in 5781 any different?
If yes, why didn’t you comment on the entire YWN article instead of focusing on a single commenter?

the article that was very clear that it didn’t have any issue with Lubavitch per se, and that those boys were in no way representative of the greater community, and despite that you felt a need, just in case it would somehow be misconstrued as a chillul Lubavitch, to immediately show how other Jews have the same problem.

And it’s quite apparent from the existence of this thread that it was indeed seen as representative of issues in Lubavitch as a whole, which is why I feel that my comment was necessary, as I elaborated on in earlier posts (people find faults in others but not in themselves, etc.).

I want to clarify again that I’m not ch”v looking to condemn other communities, rather point to a greater issue that we must all deal with together.

when you were rightfully criticizing the editors description of these boys as terrorists, you decided to describe the yerushalmi protesters as animals

My intention was not at all to start calling Jews names. It was purely a play on words from the nusach used by YWN:
They compared the bochurim to “animals in Gaza” so I was saying (slightly sarcastically) that even if they want to use a derogatory term for these bochurim, it should be comparing them to other violent protestors in the Jewish community, not Hamas terrorists who killed Jews. My using the word “animals” about violent protestors was purely to emphasize how I was borrowing YWN’s nusach.

So you agree that litvish Torah learning is the same as Lubavitch learning chassidus?

Not exactly, but specifically in this context of sometimes one can learn and learn but it doesn’t have the desired effect on him – I think this does apply to both. Maybe on different levels, I’m not sure

coffee addict,

But don’t we claim the same thing about Yiddishkeit? Don’t we say that Torah makes a person more eidel, that a proper Jewish education should give someone better midos?

Respectfully, your taana sounds quite similar to the taana of the “chilonim” when something happens in the frum community at large: “The chreidim paint themselves as holier than thou because they learn Torah and keep mitzvos, yet…”

Of course, the answer to both taanos is: Our learning is supposed to affect us, and hopefully it does for many people. Is that to say that we don’t have a yetzer hara? Does Hashem take away our bechira chofshis to do something wrong?

Unfortunately, the media doesn’t have a shortage of times where someone who was considered a holy yerei shamayim committed terrible wrongdoings which are completely unbefitting of a ben Torah.

This is especially relevant in a case when many bochurim involved in such acts are indeed people who haven’t spent much of their time in yeshiva learning Torah, so it’s even more understandable that it didn’t have much of an effect on them.

And again, I wasn’t ch”v trying to JUSTIFY what happened by pointing out others who did it, two wrongs don’t make a right. I was trying to make two important points which I elaborated on above.

mod,

How many is several? Just asking

Dictionary definition: “More than two but not many.”

In this case: Three.

Not emesdik. Watch the video. 

your intent was something else I don’texpect from you.

My intent in bringing up Ponevezh is not chas v’shalom just for the sake of bashing other Jews or saying lashon hara.

Unfortunately, human nature is that we are quick to notice faults in others while ignoring faults in ourselves. Therefore, many will rush to say that the entire Lubavitch movement is problematic due to the wild actions of some young people who consider themselves Lubavitch but don’t represent Lubavitch, while they completely ignore that their own community may suffer from the very same issue of the existence of wild, radical, violent groups of extremist young people.

The very fact that so many people were perfectly fine with the Lubavitch coverage, yet were so offended by my mentioning what happened in Ponevezh really proves this point.

Incorrect conclusion. “People” weren’t offended. You took a comment about something current and, instead of responding to it, shlepped in a past event of intense controversy to you as if there’s a connection/to make a connection. When there is current coverage of animalistic behavior of others, r”l, it is expected as it is current coverage.

This also answers the claim of the OP that this issue is specific to Lubavitch due to the “chasidus without a present rebbe”-status (so to speak), by pointing out that communities that don’t necessarily fit this narrative can suffer from the same issues.

I still don’t fully understand why people are so shocked by my insinuating that YWN would cover brawls in other Jewish sects, but covering Lubavitch doesn’t bother them.

P.S. I’m not necessarily pro publicizing these things. I’m just not understanding the seeming double standard.

Im not pro publicizing much at all – 

It’s become the wild West.

Becoming the wild west? Or something wild happened there a few days ago when about a dozen wild boys tried breaking a wall?

How many yeshivos did this not happen with?
Just look at YWN, and you’ll find many cases of vandalism by wild yeshiva bochurim in all kinds of yeshivos. And there are many more not reported by YWN (such as the riots in Ponevezh in 5781).

You seem to be keyed in to Ponevezh

The unfortunate thing is that for סיבות שונות ומשונות, this story made an uproar in the news.

do yidden have nothing else to worry about in 2024 except saying “happy holidays”? Gosh, too much time on your hands.

I missed the part where someone said that we have “nothing else to worry about” except this interesting and relevant question about what is halachically permissible at this time of year, and if there is an issue of עבודה זרה or אביזרייהו (based on the halachos in שלחן ערוך יורה דעה סי’ קמח ס”ט).

Story of Berdichiver and L Rebbe wishing Yidden new year is interesting, do you know more of their motivation?

Not exactly sure.
Though I feel it’s necessary to point out an incident pointing in the other direction:

Someone once ended a December letter with “We hope that the coming year will be a successful and fruitful one!”

The Rebbe circled “coming year” and wrote (you can find a picture in his handwriting online):
!?
התחיל כבר בר”ה

Great halachic overview regarding wishes on Kratzmach and New Years here:

https://shulchanaruchharav. com/halacha/may-one-wish-holiday-greetings-to-gentiles-merry-chris-mass-happy-holidays/

Exactly, so you are not going to take advantage of the nonJew in any way, even when it is possible al pi din – say, he makes a mistake.

Very true and important message.

Interesting to note from today’s Rambam (הלכות גניבה פ”ז ה”ח):
אֶחָד הַנּוֹשֵׂא וְהַנּוֹתֵן עִם יִשְׂרָאֵל אוֹ עִם עַכּוּ”ם אִם מָדַד אוֹ שָׁקַל בְּחָסֵר עוֹבֵר עַל לֹא תַּעֲשֶׂה וְחַיָּב לְהַחְזִיר. וְכֵן אָסוּר לְהַטְעוֹת אֶת הָעַכּוּ”ם בְּחֶשְׁבּוֹן אֶלָּא יְדַקְדֵּק עִמּוֹ שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (ויקרא כה נ) “וְחִשַּׁב עִם קֹנֵהוּ” אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁהוּא כָּבוּשׁ תַּחַת יָדֶיךָ. קַל וָחֹמֶר לְעַכּוּ”ם שֶׁאֵינוֹ כָּבוּשׁ תַּחַת יָדֶיךָ. וַהֲרֵי הוּא בִּכְלַל (דברים כה טז) “כִּי תוֹעֲבַת ה’ אֱלֹהֶיךָ כָּל עשֵֹׁה אֵלֶּה כּל עשֵֹׁה עָוֶל” מִכָּל מָקוֹם:

On the topic of a goy’s value in serving Hashem:

The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 3a): אפילו נכרי ועוסק בתורה שהוא ככהן גדול
A goy who learns Torah (referring to Torah about Sheva Mitzvos) is like a kohen gadol!
Meiri: מכבדין אותו אפילו ככהן גדול

(However, a Jew who learns Torah is GREATER than a kohen gadol -Tosfos)

When Moshiach comes, the Rambam writes (הלכות מלכים ספי”ב): לא יהי’ עסק כל העולם אלא לדעת את השם בלבד ולפיכך יהיו ישראל חכמים גדולים.
The occupation of the ENTIRE WORLD (goyim) will only be the knowledge of Hashem, and the Yidden will have a deeper understanding.

myvoice: If a fellow lit your house on fire, and then had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process his life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?

yankel: If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process the grandsons life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?

Yankel, you took the words out of my mouth.

Honestly, I think that myvoice admits this at the end of his post:
Understandably, this only refers to the Zionist army as an institution, if one knows a soldier and would like to pray for him, such behavior is definitely warranted.

Myvoice, I possibly agree with you on this. The more generalized institution of the “state” may be deeply flawed, which is why I wouldn’t hang the Zionist flag or sing their anthem.
However, the Jewish soldiers, Jewish teens straight out of school or yeshiva, who are currently giving their lives for protection of fellow Jews deserve our greatest admiration, respect, gratitude, and tefillos.
What difference does it make what was the ideology of the people who created the government which organized these troops?

Over here the regular citizens are at risk. as well… So why would you question a Psak of the Godol HaDor to pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel?

Again, I didn’t see the video. I’m am just wondering about the reasoning for a psak din that you quoted.

I think we should definitely pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel.
The very fact that you specified “in Eretz Yisroel” is because you recognize that they are currently in a more obvious state of danger than other parts of Klal Yisroel around the world, which is why we should do extra tefillos for them.
Similarly, the soldiers are currently in a more obvious and imminent danger than regular civilians in Eretz Yisroel (to claim otherwise would be ludicrous), which is why we should especially have them in mind in our tefillos.

And the fact that they are putting their lives on the line to protect millions of other Jewish lives (in accordance with Shulchan Aruch) is all the more of a reason to daven extra for them.

what do shluchim do in Russia or Muslim countries or in EY?

Shluchim in Russia do Julian, if I’m not mistaken.

EY does Gregorian.

Muslim countries: Not sure what their minhag is l’poel.
From here it’s implied that they don’t do nittel at all:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=4615&st=&pgnum=360

Did everyone see the video of HaGaon HaRav Aharon Feldman shlit”a asking a shaila to Maran HaGaon HaRav Moshe Shternbuch shlit”a whether Yidden should pray for the soldiers? Rav Shternbuch paskened that we should rather pray for the welfare of all of Klal Yisroel.

I didn’t see it. What was the rationale for this psak halacha? What’s the source in Shulchan Aruch?

UJM, If I was at home with my family and we had a burglar in the basement, and you went downstairs with a knife to confront him and protect my family, I would DEFINITELY add extra tefillos for you – regardless of your ideology.

This is in addition to the simple fact that tefillos seem to be more necessary for someone who is in greater danger than for one who’s in lesser danger, and the soldiers are obviously in greater danger than other citizens.