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This is Midwesterner’s wife (maybe one day I’ll figure out how to create my own file here 🙂 )
When my oldest daughter was dating, a friend gave me great advice. Do the work yourself. Get names of boys from various sources and track them down, get people to red your child to them. Find connections to those boys. It used to be that girls waited for the boys to find them. I have found that nowadays, there are plenty of girls’ mothers who are doing their research about the boys and once they find the boy, it’s easier to convince a shadchan to red it, since you did half the homework for them.
A rebbetzin once told my friend who had an older daughter, that she should make some concrete hishtadlus every week. She should make a phone call to a shadchan, to a friend in a city with a yeshiva, a relative who is a rebbe in another yeshiva… There are always connections to be made, you just have to be creative.
Certainly daven and find zechusim. Another friend organized a machsom lifi for single girls with hope it would be a zechus for her daughter as well. When you do mitzvohs, say it should be a zechus for your daughter.
Yet another friend had a daughter who married older. When her children would get into an argument, she would ask them to be mevater and say that keeping quiet creates an eis ratzon and that they should use it to ask Hashem for their sister to find her zivug.
In other words, short of investing in the Nasi program(especially if you can’t afford it) do your own homework both spiritually and physically.
and physically doesn’t only mean paying a fancy shadchan. Although I found my way very taxing, I felt at least I was involved in the process.
The more homework you do about boys, the more you get a feel of who is out there.
You can also have your daughter and her friends look out for each other. How many shidduchim have been made when a girl didn’t think a boy on a date was her type, but she red the boy afterward to her friend and they got engaged?
It has been said that most shadchanim come from friends and family. In my family, my parents made shidduchim for their nieces and our aunts and uncles made ours. A lady I know has her second daughter engaged quite young k’ah. She told me her first son in law made the shidduch for her second daughter!
I think that my ax grinding is very clear. I think that given the financial hardships that most of our families are undergoing, if someone creates a program that extorts exorbitant sums of money from families, through playing with the hearts of young girls who are likely to be petrified by the over the top advertising, (10% of the girls graduating Bais Yaakov will NEVER get married! remember that one?) they had better have some serious Daas Torah.
The Shalom Bayis issues that you’re going to cause by causing people to stress out to an unprecedented level just to get on a list would be enough to scare me out of initiating such a project.
I think also that by your over emphasizing shidduchim being red to older girls, and forbidding people from redding shidduchim to younger girls, means than in short order, EVERY SINGLE girl will be an older girl. That will in effect quadruple shadchan fees for everyone. Not just the unfortunate few that hit their 22nd birthday while still single. You can’t redd a shidduch until the girls is 20. And at 22 the fee quadruples. Actually it quintupled, until the game changing program changed its game three weeks later.
If the problem is not enough boys for the girls, how does exponentially increasing the fee schedule answer that problem?
If someone raises a foolish (at best) solution to a problem, and there are strong reasons to believe that it is the incorrect solution, should we just roll over and accept it, because they creators of the solution care a lot, and because I don’t have an alternative? If it’s wrong, then it’s wrong.
And finally, I think that a large reason for the shidduch crisis can be found in a very short famous six word line in the gemara.
“Tav l’meisav tan du, milemeisav armelu.” There are loads of single boys out there. Go visit the Irv, and you’ll find them by the dozens, even the hundreds. They are not bothered by being single nearly as much as the girls are. It is very sad for them, but it is the teva that Hashem put in the briah. Boys can handle being single more than girls can. Since the girls are more desperate than the boys, there is a crisis for them. You can fiddle with the numbers, move the incentives here or there, but the teva habriah remains the same.
Boys have always been getting married older than girls. There are reasons for this that are also built into teva habriah.
I have no doubt that Rabbi Pogrow’s intentions are 100% lishmah. He is a man of impeccable integrity. But there is a goyishe expression that talks about the material used to pave a certain path. I chas veshalom don’t wish that upon him or any of the NASI operatives who are surely all acting with the best intentions. But to decide centrally and organizationally how to run the economy was the path of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin. It is doomed to fail, but not just on itself, but while taking down who knows how many along with it.
Lo almon Yisroel. If Hashem created the world, Mahn d’yahiv chayei, yahiv mezonei. And I firmly believe that yahiv shiduchei as well. You want to make hishtadlus to help what you perceive to be a deficiency in the system, you’re entitled to do that. But please don’t inflict undue economic hardship on an already overtaxed parent body of Bnos Yisroel because of your dreams.
And the final piece of my ax is that I am a father of 6 daughters, 5 of whom are still single (only one is already of age to be in the parsha). Where is all the extra money gonna come from? I firmly believe that Hashem will provide. He has until now, halevai vaiter. The original game changing kole koreh back a few months ago said that if we don’t act then we will be responsible. I say that if you do act, then you will be responsible for the financial hardships you are inflicting on us all.
Oy oy, how many are gone is just a 2 short years!! R Nosson Tzvi, R Chaim, maybe one or two others!!
So bottom line is that we have 70 gedolim signing on some generic letter saying we’ve got to take care of our daughters. People should not feel stigmatized by going out with someone close in age. Shadchanim should work for older girls and not just take the easy route with the 19 year olds.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the new game changing initiative, or whatever they’re calling it this week. That is something cooked up by some individuals and an auditing firm, and after 3 months, has the haskama of 2 of the unrelated 70, and 7 other shul rabbanim. Quadrupling and more of shadchanus fees, plus demanding that it be paid up front to even get your name on the list, does NOT have the blessing of Gedolei Yisroel!! Any comment by AZ or anyone else insinuating that it does is false.
That is the position as stated in Nasi’s unofficial press releases through the coffeeroom and their designated commenter here. Please everyone wait three weeks, and the uproar will cause a further update in Nasi’s unofficial positions to be once again released in a press release to the CR.
It is not a question of 9 signatures vs 70, as you made it out to be. It is the near total absence of all of those signers.
Back in October or November when this all started, AZ said over and over again that we have 70 people who already signed on to the earlier phase. Now when he can’t get 69 of them to sign on the one with dollar signs attached, even after months of challenges, he says that there is no connection between the two. One day when I have more time, I’ll dig up the posts and links. But you can’t have it both ways.
And you can bet a “30-year-old’s-fee” that I will contact people on your list. I have already reached out to one of them. Just haven’t gotten a response yet.
For the record, one of my roshei yeshiva was approached to sign as one of the original 70 and refused. He holds that girls should marry as close as possible to the spiritual high they are on when returning home from seminary in Israel. The longer they are back in America, the more their hashkafos get diluted. Remember they are not in Yeshiva like the bochurim. Most of them are out in the world, and being exposed to religiously compromising influences. So I can assure you, he does not hold of this one either.
WIY
Member
The very existence of a secular government in Eretz Yisroel is a constant Chillul Hashem.
But do 2 wrongs make a right?
Some would refer to the nesius as the on deck circle for the Moetzes.
We already know what Popa thinks of Chicago girls.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-does-a-shofar-sound-like#post-302047
Apparently my response was not understood. I have nothing but the utmost respect for these rabbanim. I have had much interaction with at least two of them, and my immediate family is close to at least three others. My respect for their Torah knowledge and committment to their kehillos knows no limits!
My question was not about those rabbanim, but rather what happened to the other list of 70? Did AZ and Pogrow (if they’re not the same person) lose their phone numbers? (All except R’ SF Schustal, that is.) Earlier on in this debate we were assured that this had the approval of numerous top tier gedolim. R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky’s name was even attached in the comments. How come he won’t sign this? Where are the Lakewood roshei yeshiva or mashgiach? No one named Feinstein? R’ Ahron Schechter? R’ Aharon Feldman? I’d be more than happy to accept non moetzes names, if they are of the caliber that are Einei Ha’eida. How about R’ Elya Ber?
Do you think roshei yeshiva don’t understand girls’ needs? Don’t they have their own daughters and granddaughters? To insinuate that our highest level of gedolim don’t understand the needs of (the female) half of Klal Yisroel, is what is found on other websites, and should not be said on YeshivaWorld.
If one wants to implement an intiative that will drastically change the economics of the entire shidduchim process, then yes, you must get top tier gedolim, or you’ll be laughed at by the hamon am.
Primary critereon for shadchan is the willingness to be able to accept quadruple or more than previously accepted norms in shadchanus gelt. Any shadchan willing to take that risk, should be able to get in!
Second tier names. No one on the Moetzes. No one even on deck.
For those of us who attended neither, would you care to share a bit of what the shows were about?
the correct word is Septuagint. The shoresh of the (first part of the) word is Septua meaning the 70 zekainim
Chicago Housing Authority
They have been giving out double tickets lately. If your receipt says you earned 3, they’ll give you 6!
Agree with Popa. Just one additional point. The Yellow Star-Concentration camp outfits were not mainstream chareidim. It was also only the sikrikim crowd. The sikrikim are already acknowledged to be living by their own rules.
Rabbi Morgenstern, Rabbi Sender, Rabbi Kenzer, and YLC, Rabbi Teller, Rabbi Juzint, and Rabbi Leff are gone. (probably some others too that don’t come to mind).
If the roshei yeshiva are gone, and your high school buddies are now in charge, that could be considered a fair amount of change.
Not saying that the changes are positive or negative. But they are significant changes.
Not justifying spitters and screamers here! Not at all! But think about this for a moment.
So the chilonim and Dati types have a right to their lifestyle. Who are the chareidim to tell them where to sit on a bus, and how to dress in the street? But don’t the chareidim also have that right? They want to sit separate. They want their children to dress in a certain way. So you say well, not in Yerushalayim. It’s an international city. Everyone wants to be there. Not right to put such restrictions on the hamon am like that. Better go somewhere out of town and build your own community, then you can have your own standards. So they go to Beit Shemesh or Emmanuel or Monroe or New Square or Lakewood or wherever, you fill in the blank. Now they can’t live as they wish in their own neighborhood? And people come to their place and say, no its not right to impose your standard on us. Well, that’s why they went away from the big yishuv! To start their own, because they also have freedom to live and worship as they please!
Why are only the chilonim and Datiim allowed to live as they choose? Why aren’t the chareidim allowed that same option? They, and their wives, and their children choose happily to live like that. So why does it bother everyone if chas veshalom someone wants to be a little frummer?
When it comes to gashmiyus, there is a bare minimum. But when people strive for more than the requirements, it is considered laudable. But when it comes to ruchniyus, everyone says, “But that’s a chumra and not required.” So what if its not required? Why can’t people strive to lead a higher lifestyle in kiyum hamitzvos?
Once again, not justifying the spitters and the harrasers! Just the desire to elevate oneself should be seen as an ideal!!
Wolf: They are using the individual who screamed prutza to the eight year old girl as their rallying cry to break all boundaries of tznius.
Thanx, landsman!!
Today is my Five Year Anniversary! Vayihyu b’einav k’yamim achadim, b’ahavaso . . . .
So who is 80? Now I’d love to know!!
Soliek: That is obviously correct. Where else would I have ever (knowingly, at least) seen anything written by you? If you’d be willing to share, I’d be happy to comment. However, why anyone would care about my comments without knowing who I am, is totally beyond me.
My point was not challenging your knowledge of the material. You said in the beginning that you were confident about both your knowledge, and your ability to convey it. I conceded that in my orginal response. Your concern was convincing your students that it matters. To that I say, if you know, you can teach. But you cannot preach, and have devarim nichnasim el halev, unless they are yotzim min halev. If it would really be in your lev, then it would come out in every format.
I’m not talking about typos. We’re all human, and we all make mistakes. I don’t believe in becoming the grammar police either; I’ll leave that for Haifagirl. (Haven’t heard from her much lately!) But whatever you teach, if you want your students to value the subject, you must as well. If you just want them to learn rules of the road, then if you know them you can convey them. But if you want to teach value, then value it yourself.
Perhaps Oomis is referring to the following old tale:
A black and white panda bear walks into a restaurant. He orders a quick meal. After polishing it off, he pulls out a pistol, fires a few shots in the air, and walks out the front door.
Another patron turns to the owner and asks, “What was that?”
So the owner pulls out a poorly punctuated guide to animals, and flips to the P section. There it states: Panda bear: Eats, shoots, and leaves.
There is actually a cute grammar book titled, “Eats, Shoots and Leaves,” after that old joke.
Don’t know how to put all of the above together. But if English and grammar means so little to you that you can write like you just did above, then you’ll never be able to impress its importance on students.
It is not a matter of book knowledge. You’re not asking about that. You’re asking about impressing the importance on them. First impress it onto yourself and live it. Maybe then you can preach it.
The place I daven on Shabbos (a Litvishe yeshiva gedola, ultra chareidi) has separate entrances on separate streets for men and women. (The building is on a corner) No one has asked anyone to do anything. But the teenage girls will frequently walk out and head home after mussaf, to avoid mingling on the corner. They probably wouldn’t be saying very much of the Pitum Haketores anyway, and that’s more than enough time to get a couple of blocks ahead of the mass exodus. This is totally on their own. No one asks them to do anything of the sort. The married women do not leave early, unless they choose to do so to get a head start on the seuda.
This is Midwesterner’s wife. I actually wrote a lengthy column in the Yated about making it yourself. I gave a recipe for homemade yogurt, but you may use storebought if you wish.
I have not found a cholov Yisroel brand of Greek yogurt, so I wrote how to make it yourself.
The way to do it is to strain regular yogurt. You strain it either by using cheesecloth and having the yogurt strain for a few hours in the fridge over a bowl. Or you can line a colander with several coffee filters, also placed over a bowl for a few hours in the fridge. It comes out delicious! If you overstrain it, you will end up with yogurt cheese. You can always add the strained whey in the bowl back into the yogurt to thin it out again. It’s worth the effort, especially if you make it yourself! When I make it from homemade yogurt, it tastes like sour cream.
I hope that helps.
Kiddush Hashem and Chillul Hashem are not based on what is feel good according to the swiftly changing morals of the day. Doing Retzin Hashem brings Kiddush Hashem. Doing the opposite brings Chillul Hashem.
I have already stated my opinion that it is likely muttar. But not because its a Kiddush Hashem cuz they had a baby. Rather that since it is not chinam, as defined by halacha, so there is no violation.
People sometimes have a hard time defining chinam in another context as well. That would be sinas chinam. There are people out there who, when challenged that their behavior/philosophy is incorrect, will respond: SINAS CHINAM! Rather than address the substance of the challenge. Fighting dei’os kozvos is not chinam.
Why not? Because there is an issur D’oraisa of lo sechanem-Lo siten lahem matnas chinam. I know that this din d’oraisa is difficult for many people to reconcile with political correctness, but it remains the din.
There are perhaps ways to define chinam, which would allow this, though. Especially if they are neighbors with whom you have a relationship. Then it is not chinam, but rather to maintain that relationship.
One day ago means somewhere between 24:00 and 47:59 ago. At 48:00 it will say 2 days ago. This was put up originally on Sunday morning, less than 48 hours ago. But keep an eye out. Very soon it will change to 2 days!
OC 422
DH: Are you sure that you don’t occasion their threads frequently?
Methinks that one keeps speculation in ones head and off the internet.
I will get you sources. Feel free to ignore me until then. However, take a look throughout shas and shulchan aruch. You will find the unique lashon of aniyas hahalel applied all over the place. Rarely does it say amiras hahalel. Aniya is integral to the process. Difficult to quote sources when on the road. But the mehalech hasugya has become a part of me.
The definition of Hallel, as learned from Shiras Hayam, Shiras Habe’er, and from sugyos in asiyas korban pesach, includes aniya. B’zman habayis, the shatz would say pesukim of halel, and the tzibbur would respond Hodu L’Shem Ki tov, etc. (Gemaros in Pesachim) This has gotten watered down to nowadays when we only say 4 pesukim in that format. It is the way hallel is recited. Nothing to do with sequences, as in tadir v’sheino tadir.
The result of delving into sugyos off and on over the years. Exact chapter and verse will have to wait. I am not at a place and time where I can answer things that need to be looked up.
But Bais Ushi is on the disabled list! If you beat someone when their at half strength only due to construction, is that really a win?!
And besides, Hallel is likely the most important thing to be said b’tzibbur. Aniyas Hahallel is integral to the hillul. It is muttar to skip pesukei dezimra to catch the responsive parts like Hodu and Ana Hashem as much as tefila b’tzibbur, and according to some poskim, even more so.
I don’t want to take away from Gefen’s invitation, but if you stop by Motzoei Shabbos, and you’re milchigs, I’m sure you won’t be disappointed! Make sure it’s before 9 though. That’s when the Telshe Melave Malka starts!
Or better yet, this afternoon! Can you be yotze To’ameha Chaim Zachu with milchig donuts that weren’t made expressly for Shabbos?
ZK: Do you care to elaborate on what any sefer says about Rosh Hashana l’umos. I know the gemara talks about rosh hashana l’mlachim for goyim as distinct from Rosh Hashana for malchei Yisroel. However, it pegs those 2 dates as 1 Tishrei vs. 1 Nissan. But January 1? I am not aware of any such thing!
Kensington and Madison are what people who live in Flatbush call themselves when they don’t wanna say they live in Flatbush. Ditto with West Lawrence and Far Rockaway.
Ummm. The best sufganiyot in Chicago come from the kitchen of the writer of Creative Cuisine in Yated. As a matter of fact, her very first column was on caramel donuts. Reb Pinny was here once for a simcha, she made them, he liked them, and we got the job!
Thanx Gefen. I know the honor is only due to my wife’s baking. If there’d be a way to spread some of that around the CR, I’m sure we’d get even more votes!
Umm, I didn’t guess because I knew.
It was Parshas Vayakhel Pekudei a few years back. I was laining in the parsha of the me’il. In Parshas Tetzave, the word safah has a pazeir. In Pekudei there is a meircha-tvir on safah lefiv saviv lo yikare’a. So as I’m about to lain the much softer pekudei trop, the guy with the aliya standing right next to me goes safa-a-a-a-a-h with a pazeir, quite looud enough to throw me for a moment. So I let my better judgement get away and followed his lead. There’s only 5 words till the sof pasuk! No way to recover and blend in such short order! Ended up with egg all on my face. Serves me right for not having enough self confidence to ignore him!!
The mishna berura says that whenever one davens, even if he davens softly, he must hear the words coming out of his month. (Tzarich lehashmia l’aznav ma shemotzi b’sfasav.) The only exception the mishna berura lists, is that when one has an aliya and is reading along with the Baal Kriah, he may say so soft that he cannot hear, so as not to disturb the Baal Kriah.
ZK: People who live out of town are not intimidated by each other nearly as much. There is a natural bond you feel with anyone from your city. I don’t know where you’re from, but if it is from someplace like BP or Flatbush, you probably don’t even know everyone on your block. But I live in a decent sized out of town place. And another poster, several months back, challenged me to identify her. She gave me very little to work with. She lived in my neighborhood (2 blocks away) for 4 years like a decade ago. But it took me less than 10 minutes to pin her down.
I just figured out who another quite regular poster is yesterday. Turns out I was his uncle’s rebbe a number of years ago when he lived in my town. (Next month will be 20 years since I started my first daf yomi shiur. WOW!! From Beitza to Bechoros, plus 2 cycles!) Not gonna go any further, because I don’t want to blow anyones cover.
Oy, I wish we could go back to the innocence of yesteryear! Jothar might blacklist me if I complain about the security enhancements here. I know it is all neccesary, but I just wish it weren’t so. But come visit us here, and try getting used to out of town. We still have it to a large extent. Yes there are bad people here too. I am quite aware of that. But the general attitude is much more welcoming, and you don’t feel threatened by someone else’s anonymity. And if eventually you connect with someone who was previously anonymous, it makes you feel good. Chein Hamakom Al Yoshveha!!
Same here. They give you loads of everything exept one. Those individual missing tickets are the control. When they say there are x amount of winners, that is because that is how many of the elusive single last ones are out there. I would assume most everyone in town who is doing this has the same sheets as you and I have.
My place likes to stay in SHabbos Chanuka. Chanuka is a celebration of conquering the yavanim who were anti limud Hatorah and listening to chazal. Kisvu lachem al Keren hashor etc and all the rest. We have a big melave malka, and bnai Torah from around the cournty who have an off Shabbos come to our event. Guest speaker is scheduled to be the rosh kollel of the newest kollel in the neighborhood, RYR of KOT.
And I never get an off Shabbos anyway. Even if the guys would be away, I’d still be working. Refer to my previous comment about my intolerance of most other baalei kriah. (Although I’d be curious to hear what The Wolf sounds like.)
Popa: You know where to find me. I challenge you!! (I have done this myself to others and gotten ‘the look’! Not very often, though. My far too large ego does not allow me to tolerate listening to very many others.)
Onegoal: Very few people pay attention to Shabbos morning pesukei dezimra. Ther are many places where there is not even a shatz up there at all. If davening starts at, let’s say 8:00, that just means that someone goes up at 8:30 and says Shochein Ad.
I live about a 16 minute walk from the place I daven at Shabbos morning. I’ve found that if I walk out the door with Asher nasan lasechvi vina, I get to the shul at Az Yashir. If I’m late, I will sometimes skip the Halleluka halleu es Shem Hashem (too confusing with Hallel Hagadol), then Hallel hagadol (always get thrown off with 26 times ki l’olam chasdo) and Ranenu Tzadikim (too interchangable with Yehi ch’vod). (Can you tell that I daven Ashkenaz?) The rest goes smooth without any trouble. With proper concentration I sometimes can do those as well. I make up the missing parts when I have a siddur, right before Nishmas, and all is well.
That was what they guessed!
The local bakery makes Caramel donuts from around ROsh Chodesh Kislev until 2 Teves. They sell like hotcakes! But the day after Chanuka, they disappear for 11 months. Never understood why!