popa_bar_abba

No, it just means I don’t rely on the Talmud for science or medical advice, but moral instruction and explanation of Halacha.

Good, that’s all I needed to hear.

And if you want, you might consider how it contradicts everything else you said in that post.

450 a year

(150 for first year after getting smicha, but I’m like 3 years)

It is not bizui of the talmud chacham to opine that he was mistaken, if the tone is respectful. If he would have written “the Rambam was a bigot” then I would be maskim. If someone says that the Rambam was influenced by the mores of his time and those mores were sexist, that is not bizui.

For example: Aliyos for women. I don’t think there is any issur if a person says that the pashut pshat “kavod hatzibbur” referred to in the Gemara is based on the sexist mores at the time, and today that we are not as sexist there is no problem of kavod hatzibbur.

I’m sorry, but that stretches credibility and requires the most ridiculous contortions. You basically need to say that chazal really were not bigoted, but realized that everyone else was, and instead of trying to influence society’s values which is exactly the whole point of the Torah, they decided to build those bad values into the structure of halacha and minhag.

I think it’s being a bit too charitable, particularly given that their writings are pretty clear that they indict chazal under the same hammer (because they rightfully think your contortion is bizarre).

I get my morality and values from chazal. I don’t tell chazal what their morality and values should have been. Chochma b’amim, taamin; Torah b’amim al taamin.

I discussed the article with a common friend I have with the author. (legislative history).

ben:

I have an expansive view of step one. I reject your ambiguity because it is clear that he is tapping into allegations of bigotry by noting that chazal were male.

If you must go to step two, I note that if he thought that chazal’s meaning was not bigoted, he could simply have that meaning in mind and not be bigoted. There may be more than one interpretation, but yours is not one of the reasonable ones.

As long as that doesn’t mean that the halachos are invalid, how does it damage the mesorah.

First, because it is being used to disqualify very old minhagim, which is bad enough.

Second, because it inherently undermines the validity of the mesorah. The fact that they think there is apparently some other reason to observe hardly makes up for that.

Sam, I don’t think I’m exaggerating what they say.

I think the only thing I can be accused of is extrapolating from the writings of the talmidim what the rebbeim hold. But I think that is fair, since they are in a large way using the talmidim to say the things they are afraid to say.

I also have significant exposure to their ideologies by way of personal relationships and facebook. Which is stuff that is not in the public eye completely, but I think my conclusions are sound even just on the basis of op-eds, blog posts, and other public writings.

You might also read a piece published last week or so titled “Should I Thank God for Not Making Me a Woman?” by another of their clowns who also happens to be a founder of Uri l’tzedek. The latter piece is somewhat more subtle about the allegation, but it is clear if you know what to look for.

So for example, the latter piece’s thesis is to substitute a different meaning for shelo asani isha; specifically, that the bracha is because practically he thinks being a woman stinks. He writes that he insists on saying the bracha even if it needs a different meaning because “As a committed Orthodox Jew, I have accepted the entirety of halacha — the Jewish path of law and tradition — upon myself.”

But then in the next paragraph he writes: “Written by male rabbis nearly 2,000 years ago, these words evoke for me the sexism too prevalent in the Orthodox world and beyond… Do I want any part of that sexism? No.”

I don’t think this is ambiguous. Chevron Step one, for the win.

Please, I would very much like to be wrong about them.

writersoul: You may read the article if you wish. But as long as you don’t, you’ll have to trust me that I’m representing it accurately.

benign: on the women point, we aren’t disagreeing (nor agreeing). The argument you are making is not what he says.

I don’t care what Rav Shachter says about daas torah, because l’shitaso I don’t have to care what he says. lol

“As popa demonstrated, the modern orthodox are not following the middle path.”

I did not claim that. I might, but I didn’t.

Ok, I’ll claim it now. MO are the left; I am the center. If they want to be the center, they need to tell me who is on their left.

Following the middle path — being a centrist — is brought down by Rambam as binding halachah in Hilchot Deot.

Read the essay. He explains what he thinks the value of centrism is, and IIRC he says that cannot be it because it makes no sense to always be between whatever the extremes of the day happen to be. It would imply that if some sect arose which was even more extreme (let’s say the RBS taliban women) that you should adjust to still be in the center.

He really does present his ideas very intelligently and impressively. (Even if sometimes over my head.)

To say that he doesn’t speak English well is a massive slander at a major talmid chacham; an apology is in order.

Really? Is that where you want to make your stand? Why don’t you just say what everybody knows which is that it is hyperbole intended to make it sound better. Which isn’t the weirdest thing ever.

Also, what’s the deal with your constant digs at YCT? I disagree with their hashkafos as well- that doesn’t mean I create entire threads devoted to ridiculing their piskei Halacha, maliciously edit their Wikipedia page to make them look bad, or find every opportunity to criticize/insult them.

I’m on the front lines dude.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall.