sechel83

Arso what makes you qualified?
You know people who have more yedias hatorah then the rebbe, but you refuse to see how much yedias hatorah the rebbe had . (מצטער סוכה listen to rav bridewitz – you hold of him? He speaks about the heter. By the way you sleep in a suckah? )
That’s called טמטום המוח

Seems like some have tons of טמטום המח והלב. Maybe eat only lubavitch shchita and chalov yisroel, and things will be clearer. I don’t know what to tell you.

מתנבא על משיח means saying prophesy about moshiach , does not say anything about claiming a candidate, I’m saying the same way we say a candidate, you say no. Neither are prophesy.

From the context it would seem it’s talking about prophesy about WHEN moshiach is coming, and when he doesn’t come that time, it’s a חרפה.

Anyway a few points I saw and will comment on even though I should just say “look who’s talking about shluchim am haratzim” at least those shluchim learned semicha and rambam – kol hatorah kulah. Vda”l

About Jews being equal and non the less mevushal wine. In Tanya this idea is explained that we see indifferent areas in halacha have different dinim i.e. shchitas mumar of mechalel shabbos you can’t eat משאכ גילוי אריות, by יהרג ואל יעבור it’s the opposite. Perek לב תניא clearly says that a rasha could have a higher neshama, perek 2 too. Perek 31 also talks about how a beinuni – someone who never does any avaira even bitul Torah should feel lower than a rasha. But as explained in perek 2 and 32 there is a level in neshama that we are all equal.
Anyway today we start a new cycle of rambam . Did you learn kol hatorah kulah yet? Go learn and you won’t have such dumb questions.

Why lubavitch shchita simple, the rambam says the way to come to fear hashem is thru thinking about his greatness then goes on to explain 4 perakim about מעשה בראשית ומעשה מרכבה. How are people who are against learning מעשה מרכבה going to get yiras hashem? So we eat from someone who learns these ideas. Now I don’t consider everything else traif or say everyone else is definitely not a yiras shamayim (some can have natural yiras shamayim) , but I need to be careful for myself to get from a shochet a yiras shamayim כ”ש from when

@avira I agree he’s a kofer like halevi quoted . Not because I decided. Not being carefull in a mitzvah at the most may make someone a מומר not an apikores, kofer, or min.
If you argue please bring a source. No I don’t agree with any of your ideas that you made up.

I had some time to look up the sicha about how we finished avodas habirurim. The rebbe brings from Torah or and toras chayim that already Yaakov avinu finished all the birurim, and was ready for the geulah,
so your kashe is why moshiach didn’t come then and it’s on Torah or and toras chayim and many other places.
The rebbe explaina there the difference between then and now see there.
Now Yaakov avinu after the thought he finished avodas habirurim he did the avoda of העלאת מ”נ see Torah or.

Don’t ask kashas on anything before you learn the whole sugya!!!

@yankel berel “There was no mesorah to keep yidden away from haskala – before haskala appeared .
Simply because it did not exist.”
Besides for moshiach, that you need a mesorah, please explain why?

@coffee addict. I hope you think yiddishkeit is superior.
I believe chabad is the penimius of yiddishkeit, as explained at length everywhere from Zohar to likutai sichos. I agree 100% that someone looking for bad in others will find it in chabad too , (the only difference is that by other sects of Jews if you don’t fit in, your kicked out, so satmer has no one not keeping all the takanos, or even the yeshivish where your not “kicked out” but anyone who went to bmg and left to work, he’s a Baal habas, so he’s not part of “yeshivish”
Avirah, nice chidush, but 1) I don’t believe any shliach does that and 2) “teaches that tznius is not very important ” if you mean by not screaming at people who don’t keep it or by being lenient themselves, this is non sence, maybe you should call every jew who comes in late to davening and “teaches” that it’s not important also an apikores, or someone who comes late to Seder , or answers a phone call in middle of learning etc cuz he’s showing that learning is not important.
This is what is called sinas chinam. See hachaltzu 5659. Trying to find issues with other Jews.

a few points that i hope will answer all questions to anyone who is really honest.
Teachings of the baal shem tov (can be found in keser shem tov as well as many other seforim from the baal shem tovs talmidim)
1) G‑d sends a soul down to live on this world for seventy-eighty years, just to do a material favor for another—and certainly a spiritual one.
2) When someone issues a “verdict” on another, he is actually pronouncing his own verdict. For example, if one asserts that because of a certain misdeed another committed he is deserving of such-and-such punishment, he is actually issuing that verdict on himself. And conversely, if one says that because of a good deed or word that another has done he is deserving that G‑d should help him in the areas where he is needing, that blessing, too, is fulfilled on him himself.
3) Just like when a person looks into a mirror and sees dirt on his face, it is only because his face is dirty, so too when someone sees a fault in another, it is a sign that the fault exist within himself.
4) Upon hearing a negative report about another Jew, one should be greatly pained. For something bad has certainly occurred: If the report is true, then that individual is in an unhealthy situation; and if the report is untrue, then it is the one who is slandering is in a poor place.
5) The greatest of the great needs to learn from the simplest of the simple—for in the simple one sees the essence of simple sincerity.
6) The simpleton and the greatest scholar share the same lofty essence: they both are G‑d’s children. Just like a child’s countenance is similar to his father’s, so too G‑d’s children are merciful, bashful and kind—a reflection of their merciful, giving and forgiving Father.

I hope this answers all attacks, if not see tanya perek 30, 32. About feeling lower than every jew even the lowest of the low, and about loving every jew as yourself.

Now before attacking chabad think of these 6 things. Very simple!

@arso well said. could not have said it better!

my point is that you and others are so obssesed about chabad and internet and tznius, what about lashon hara which is worse. then you went off track and are trying to say not to take chazal literly about lashon hara kineged kulam. and you made a whole cholent of different inyonim.
each sugya has its details i.e. chilul shabbos is not doche pikuach nefesh, but a mumer for chilul shabbos is pusul to shecht, giloy aroyos is the other weay around. see tanya perek 25.
regarding the effect on the nefesh the alter rebbe says lashon hara is the worst.

@avira
The discussion was about the damage it does to the neshama, the alter rebbe quotes ghazal that it’s worse. And I brought to Regarding your statement about the damage internet does to the person. Now you change questions (like always) but by the way: Regarding how i would treet him. If I know someone that focuses on the bad in people, If I have hashpaa on him, I would suggest to him to go to therapy, it’s a really bad mida that also disturbs relationships etc .
Someone who kills someone I would probably get far away from him. But why did he kill someone? Because of lashon hara and motzi shem ra.
Just an example I would consider people who wrote publicly about chabad that they daven to the rebbe ch”v, and because of that caused such sins chinam and fights, and who knows what else, I would say they the the worst of the worst. Why is someone who kills someone so bad? I go with torah not logic,
Anyway see Tanya Derek 24-25 every avaira is AZ.

@arso
In ALL the seforim avodas habirurim is what is required since sheviras hakeilim, and when that is finished Mashiach arrives IMMEDIATELY. (Surprise, surprise! You can find all this on our erstwhile friend chabadpedia.)
big mekubal! you see one line (not even in the source as you say from Wikipedia) and ask kashos, it reminds me of the joke they say about litvaks

So nice you have nasty litvak jokes.  Edited.

Being chabad I learned to be Dan likaf schus. Just because someone has internet doesn’t mean he does avairos. 2) one of the reasons of the revealation of chassidus in the later generations is because of the nisyonos, so it’s pretty clear in chabad that the way to keep away from these nisyonos is thru learning and doing the avoda of chassidus. Every person has his mashpia to guide him wether or not he should have internet based on his work, shlichus etc. A few yrs before the asifa in 5772, I remember schools sending letters to parents about the dangers of internet and to get filters. I don’t know any lubavitchers who use internet without a filter.
People also said that the shluchim that went in middle of nowhere with no religious community will not stay frum, we see that b”h the past 70 yrs they raised frum and chassidish kids. This is because they have the koach of the mishaleach – the Rebbe as explained in maamarim and sichos. So they have extra kochos when using the internet for kiruv.
And btw again same as tznius, I personally don’t see internet more common by chabad then in other communitys. Meaning in yeshiva no one has, people involved in chinuch in chabad most don’t have, who have? Business men and shlucchim. By other communitys it’s the same, just i.e. by litvish more go to kolel, so most don’t have there. But the ones that go to business is the same thing.
If you know what the Rebbe would do, maybe you be the Rebbe! If a Rebbe is only someone with common sense, we have plenty of that in chabad.

“It’s like the internet. Other chatzeiros have rules about internet usage that originate from their rebbes. Lubavich only has rules suggested by rabbis and mashpi’im.”
So what’s the problem, lubavitch takes mashpiim very seriously the Rebbe said it’s a bakasha nafshis and even stronger.
In general the Rebbe had a different approach to radio and technology that everything in the world was created for the kovod of hashem. The Rebbe said (I’m pretty sure) that it’s kefirs to say something was created by the Satan. That doesn’t mean everyone should use internet, the Rebbe spoke about this look in the maftachos for more details.
Hashem told Moshe he wants to destroy the yidden and make Moshe into the great nation, Moshe stood up for the yidden. This is chabads way, not to push everyone who doesn’t fit in out box out rather to be mikarev them as it says in Tanya perek 32. (Kedushas Levi in parshas chukas and somewhere else I forgot also says that a manhig is someone who sees the good in Jews, not who rebukes)

Why does chabad focus on moshiach more than anyone else?
Very simple, the alter Rebbe says in Tanya that moshiach is tachlis hakavanah of Brias haolem it’s from a medrash,
Most other Jews stress on gan Eden being the tachlis (which also has makoros in Gemara, and the rambam writes this also that after texhiyas hamasim at a later stage there will be neshamos without bodies – gan Eden.)
While the rambam says moshiach and techiyas hamasim are from the 13 ikrim, it’s a question why if it’s not the tachlis, there are answers, and the chsam sofer says that it’s not an ikar, one must believe because it says in Torah.
Since chabad goes with the medrash and the ramban that moshiach is the tachlis (see why in the sichos) that’s why it’s a bigger focus in chabad.

Tznius: would having a live Rebbe fix the issue? You guys have so many compliments on our Rebbe, now you say the issue is we don’t have a live Rebbe?!
1) this is completely lashon hara as mentioned b4 lashon hara is worse than az giloy arroyos and shfichas Domim together.
2) to be milamed zchus. About 90% of chabad today (probably even more) was not chabad 100 yrs ago. So some how the way the rabonim in chabad teach and lead, it brings people to be more shomer Torah and Mitzvos even though they may rely on more lenient views in tznius (or some not keep any opinion but at least they are shomer shabbos etc, instead of being not shomer tznius AND going totally otd and sending their kids to public schools etc)
3) I personally don’t see a bigger issue in tznius in chabad then anywhere else. I try to watch where I look. It’s very hard to notice that a person is religious and not dressing tznius without really starring at them.
Also this idea that tznius effects the whole community that’s rediculos! Do you have a cleaning lady? Do you make sure she dresses tzniusdik – skirt, covers her hair. Also mail women, employees in the kosher stores, no one has an issue!!!!

@arso we – chabad – have our derech to spread chassidus chabad to everyone, like the alter rebbe – baal hatanya – said that its for every jew. some of the other talmidim held of different ways of spreading chassidus, to focus on belief in the tzadik, coming to him, etc. but they all were involved in spreading the teachings of chassidus.
are you asking a question? i dont understand.
alot of comments, the rambam says in igeres taimon that nevuah will return before moshiach comes, he says a year (before 5000)
everyone always yeared for moshiach the way chabad does, thats why when chabad started saying “we want moshiach now” a litvish gadol said its kefira because it says im yismamea chake lo.
anyway i doubt the average person outside chabad knows why awaiting moshiach is so important, one of the 13 ikrim. and you you know please answer (aderaba teach your freinds too)
phishing attempts deleted (again)

whether or not there is or is not a problem, to make sure i dont go there and my kids dont go there, the solution is healthy parenting, correct and healthy relationship with Hashem thru learning chassidus. (proven and recognized by even goyim)
instead of trying to block out drugs, and internet, become healthy people who don’t need to escape life

if the only issue you have with christians is that they believe yoshke is mossia, i dont know where to start.
the idea of what you call “promoting moshiach” : moshiach told the baal shem tov that moshiach will come when his wellsprings will be spread outside – when all jews will learn chassidus. (see keser shem tov first letter) ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת
so chabad who follows the ways of the baal shem tov, try to spread chassidus to bring moshiach.
telling others the rebbe is moshiach, is not clearly from the rebbe. but to explain the approach of the ones who do this: obviously the one teaching toras hachassidus which is a taste of the torah of moshiach – is moshiach. he’s the yechida klalis. now when the rebbe was alive, simply if all jews would accept him as moshiach, we would have been able to build the bais hamikdash, and all move to eretz yisroel. this needs to happen thru jews accepting someone as moshiach. the rambam clearly writes moshiach does not need to do wonders,
now even though we cant see the rebbe, the rebbe has a massive “army” continuing his work, and when all jews are ready, we can build the bais hamikdash and move to isreal. to my knowledge chabad is growing and growing and biderech hateva, the rate chabad chassidus is going now, pretty soon every jew will be learning chassidus.
its also explained in chassidus (derech mitzvosecha and many other places) that a melech can only be thru accepting his malchus by the nation.
i never saw ananswer whether you guys are chassidim, litvish etc?
also can you explain to me how moshaich will be accepted by all jews? mekoros?

Also putting aside everything: what is the issue with promoting moshiach? 1 makor that its wrong? Saying it was never done dosent mean its wrong, especially after torah shebal peh was written down. (btw rav bridewitz on youtube says that they once told reb moshe that chabad is “promothing” moshiach, and reb moshe feinstein said so? Whats the problem? You could deny this – no problem, but still rav bridewitz does not think its an issue, (and anyone who speaks bad about any jew – thats called lashon hara and its forbidden to accept))
There are plenty of things jews do today that jews didnt do 100 yrs ago: kolel for everyone, printing seforim especially translations and explanations, women working, late shidduchim, using technology (whatever level), does evey step i take need to have a mesorah?
also you never answered me about reb hillel zaltman?
gut shabbos, go learn chassidus and wake up your neshama

edited 

@coffee addict reb nochum of tzenobel held the baal shem was moshiach after his passing, just becaseu it wasnt done before doesnt mean its against mesorah, what will you say when moshiach comes? against the mesorah, he didnt come for the past 2000 yrs. it was never a sugya, people didnt koch in it cuz it wasn’t relevant, (look it the shiurim seforim of sanhedrin, most skipped all the sugyos (r shmuel rosovski i.e.)

using the internet is against mesorah. driving a car is also. gitten is also much more commen today. kolel also is against mesorah!

@yankel berel. we cant argue about history but see the book מבוא לחסידות ולדרכה של חב”ד – הלל צייטלין, he writes about chassidim saying there rebbe was moshiach as i wrote. he passed away in 1942. he wrote his articles and books before that obviously.
in sefer קול התור written by a talmid of the vilna gaon – rav hillel rivlin – he writes about the gra gave him tefillos to daven that he – the vilna gaon – be revealed as moshiach.
so apperently it was done by litvaks and chassidim. you say it was not – bring proof!
“chabads propoganda machine the past 50 yrs” better than the info you get from your classmates and newspapers the past 30 yrs. (or the the history books written the past 10 or 20 yrs)
in the above sefer of rav hillel zaltzman he also writes about the attacks of misnagdim – in the time of the alter rebbe – baal hatanya that chassidim were holding to highly of him, accusing chassidim as saying he’s g-d ch”v. sold old stuff as today, nothing new. these articles are from the 1930s.

people can understand purim 1956 the way they want – out of context,
yankel berel may i know what “type/sect” of jew you are? also everyone else.
in the sefer menachem mashiv nafshi there are plenty of letters (with pictures) of all the gedolim to the rebbe. including rav moshe feinstein, reb shlome zalman aurbach, the brisker rov, the rogetchover, the pnai menachem (who came out against rav shach (together with many chassidishe rebbe’s) when he attacts chabad and the rebbe), rav mordechai gifter, rav yitchok hutner, rav pinchos hirshbrung, the shevet halev, the minchas yitzchok.i.
i agree that there were those that didnt like chabad and the rebbe, those were pretty much all from the misnagdishe yeshivos. (even though rav shach officially claimed he’s only against chabad today, 1) he was close to rav aharon kotler who was a known misnaged, 2) when he came out against chabad (almost) all the chassidishe rebbes didnt join his party, and alot of the big ones signed a machaah against him and distanced from him, like the video on youtube of when he came to Bar Mitzva of R’ Aron Mordchai Belzer Rebbe Son 1989, and tried to say mazal tov to the vitznitzer rebbe (zeide) , he ignored him.
do your reseach, its all availible like i said, unlike all the rumers about chabad, its all just rumers, no documents, pictures etc.

sechel, you quoted a list of anecdotes about R Chaim Zimmerman’s interaction with the LR. I never met or saw the man, but I have heard a little about him. Wouldn’t I be correct in saying that he was not considered a recognized gadol by virtually all of the chareidi world?
it was just one example of one gadol,
who was a gadol recognized by everyone? no one never existed. every gadol had others call them names, even very sharp ones. the satmer rebbe was against reb moshe feinstein others too. brisk was against rav shach together with most chassidim – agudas yisroel.
the whole idea of a gadol who was not a posek (i think) started by rav shach

we already discussed ramban elsewhere. learn perek hachelek, hilchos melochim then the ramban and come back , anyway like i said the abarbenal, rashi, rambam (in igeres techiyas hamasim) clearly say moshiach can be from the dead. btw the rambam in igeres tamon says nevuah will return before the year 5000, i forgot exactly the year.
its not kefirah to say like one opinion,
about rav chaim zimmerman (nephew of Rabbi Baruch Ber Lebowitz)

בהזדמנויות רבות היה נכנס ל-770 לשוחח עם הרבי בלימוד, כשכל שיחה כזו הייתה מתנהלת בגאונות עצומה ומראי מקומות “עפו” במהירות בחלל האויר. איש מן הצד, למדן ככל שיהיה, לא היה יכול לעמוד על מהלך הדברים, כאשר ר’ חיים היה מציין מראי מקום אחד, והרבי מיד מחזיר לו במראה מקום נגדי, וכן הלאה – תוך שהם עוברים בין כל מסכתות הש”ס ומפרשיהם. משיחות אלו יצא ר’ חיים נרעש[2].

מסופר כי פעם הגיע לרבי ואמר לו, כי הגיע למסקנה שאת כל סדר קדשים אפשר לסכם בשלושה נקודות עיקריות. הרבי הגיב שניתן אפילו בנקודה אחת… ר’ חיים יצא מכליו[3].

כאשר יצא לאור ספרו “אגן הסהר”, הכניס לרבי את ספר הביכורים מהדפוס. הרבי קיבל את הספר, עבר עליו תוך כחצי שעה והוציא תשובה בה הקשה על חלקים עיקריים מהספר[4]. ר’ חיים התפעל מאוד הן לנוכח המהירות בה עבר הרבי על הספר, והן מול השגותיו של הרבי אותן לא הצליח ליישב. הוא עדיין עמד על מסקנותיו[3]. לאחר זמן, הגיע לדון עם הרבי בנדון, ולאחר שקלא וטריא בנדון – שכללה, כמובן, מראי מקומות שנזרקו שוב ושוב במהירות – נעצר, חשב לרגע ואמר כי אין לו כרגע תשובה, אך הוא עדיין נחרץ שהצדק איתו[2].

לאחר אותו דיון, ניגש אליו הרב יואל כהן (שצפה בהשתאות בשיחה, מבלי להבין את פשר הדברים), ושאלו מהו המיוחד בדרך לימודו של הרבי. ר’ חיים סירב להשיב, בטענה שבין כך לא יבין… אך לבסוף הסביר, כי בדרך כלל גם הגאונים הגדולים – בשעת לימוד סוגיא מונחים בה בעומק, מבלי להיות שקועים כל כך בסוגיות אחרות. כך אפשר למצוא אצל גדולי המפרשים, שלעיתים חוזרים בהם או משנים מעט את המסקנות שהגיעו אליהם בסוגיות אחרות. לעומת זאת הרבי, כל חלקי התורה פתוחים לפניו באותו רגע, וכל הסוגיות מתאימות ועולות בקנה אחד[3].

באותה הזדמנות אמר הגאון לר’ יואל: “עיינתי 12 שעות בלקוטי שיחות כרך ד’ (שיצא לאור באותה תקופה) ולא מצאתי משהו אחד שאינו מתאים עם ירושלמי או בבלי”[2]…

עוד מסופר, כי בהזדמנות התקשר למזכיר הרב חודקוב והעיר אותו בשעה ארבע בבוקר. להפתעתו של המזכיר, הסביר ר’ חיים שהוא קיבל כעת מכתב מהרבי בנושא תורני, ולאחר שעבר עליו הוא מוכרח לומר: “הליובאוויטשער רבי הינו גאון עולם!”.

בספריית אגו”ח שמור אחד הספרים ששלח לרבי, ועליו ההקדשה: “לגאון ישראל חד בדרא ממש, מהר”ר מנחם מענדיל שניאורסון שליט”א האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש. בברכה והוקרה. אהרן חיים הלוי צימרמן”.

the above mentioned sefer with the hakdasha is printed and available in the sefer חד בדרא.
you can say its forged or he didnt mean it, you can also say that anything any gadol said or wrote he didn’t mean. so i guess whoever is the one who really decides what the gadol meant and didnt mean is the real gadol.
in my world, a gadol dosent lie, do chanifa, (those groups are not able to be mikabel pnai shchinah)

oh now i understand cs is a women thats how this thread got into gemarah.
well actually i have to say she learns gemarah much better than you guys. (and she has a heter to be on this site even writng dvarim bitalim unlike men who have a isur ro talk and write dvarim bitalim – see shulchan aruch masa umatan and hilchos t”t)

@arso When faced with the Ramban who wrote that we reject yoshke because he died, – the ramban never wrote that. as discussed elsewhere. yoshke was killed for convincing yidden to serve a”z. he was a rahsa, there was never a thought that he is moshiach, the ramban is reffering to a differnt point and was talking to christians, go learn the sugya.
could be rashi dosent hold moshiach can be from the dead – according to the way some learn but the aberbenel learns he can, and (i think) learns rashi that way too. see sefer shmoi shel moshiach, its a website too.
you cant call someone is wrong for following one pshat over an other. just like i dont call the chassidim wrong and a mumar for following r”t shkia and tzais and they dont call us mumarim to be michalel shabbos