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learning IS a REAL job, and you are right about the kollels but wrong that you can just up and switch. You are obviously trolling, or at least trying, maybe your mom needs some help in the kitchen instead?
squeak – true, true. We do have a school here (maybe two) that had a policy that any single girl who wanted a job had to sign that she was committed to finishing the year. The girls had a choice, never did anyone think it was a request not to date or get married. It was a request to be committed to the children in your charge. take it or leave it, in august. We should have more of that but too many people in the other schools seem to believe that committing to the year means we don’t want them dating.
hey squeak – if they offer them more money, how will that suddenly free up the boy who they were moving for?
maternity leave is four weeks in some places.
and yes it wreaks havoc with some years but there are limits to what can be asked of/expected from women.
as far as your next point, you’re playing the word twisting game again.
I said: If they cannot commit to a year of teaching, they have no business teaching!
you decided it translates to:”If you look at getting married as selfish…”
and
“call a woman who wants to get married uncommitted to the other responsibilities in her life.”
and
“disallowing teachers from getting married “
there is zero correlation. be committed to dating and getting married, it is the ratzon of Hashem, but DO NOT start a school year if you don’t think you can find a way to finish it, it is a tremendous lack of commitment. There are girls who have found a way to finish the year, there are girls who were honest enough to understand that they should take on a different role if they couldn’t commit to the year. those girls will be real, quality teachers.
and i hate to break it to you – that pool of good teachers will be just fine without teachers like that.
okay bachur, you started off making a good point and now you are just being ridiculous. There is a world of difference between taking off for 4 weeks, and leaving.
Squeak – you said it! but the married women here don’t make much either.
elbendi – that is close to the dumbest thing i ever heard. if your commitment to chinuch habanim is tied to how big your paycheck is then keep the heck away from my kids! A good teacher or rebbe NEEDs and DESERVES the pay, but they wouldn’t dare treat their responsibility to the children as you describe.
I worked in a school where they had no money for three full payperiods and you know what? People were angry, they made demands, but NOT ONE of those teachers even considered turning their backs on their students – why? because of their COMMITTMENT to them. I am not advocating for that, i am telling you what a REAL teacher does.
and if you take on a job that doesn’t have enough pay to make you committed, and you know that full well in advance, and you chose to use that as an excuse not to behave with commitment in return, than you are a fraud.
so nice to see how people view the job of educating our kids. Any good rebbes/teachers out there want to help me bop these guys in the nose?
YES!!!
y daughter lost years (yes, years!) of learning because of this. I once suggested this same thing to some people who were horrified!! It went something like this:
me: If they cannot commit to a year of teaching, they have no business teaching!
them: What!? Chas V Shalom! Are you saying a girl shouldn’t date? Are you saying a girl should have a 7 month engagement?
me: I said that if you are more worried about yourself than the class of girls you are teaching, don’t teach while you are dating! or don’t teach at all!
them:What?! Chas V Shalom! well then what else should they do? Should they just not work and have no money?
me: So you are trying to tell me that girls are teaching because they have nothing else to do with their time until they get married?
them: What?! Chas V Shalom! what a terrible thing to say! These girls are completely committed to these children!
me: Committed to the children? well then they shouldn’t start out the year unless they can commit to finishing it…
they never got it. it’s all about shidduchim. to heck with the kids, their stability, their sense of committment, their trust in their teachers committment to them…
go ahead, tell me I’m exaggerating, chas v shalom
good point
dash – even in a parking lot which is technically private property?
catch yourself – ticketed cars don’t normally get towed unless they are specifically in a tow zone.
if you were talking about the school plays I would have agreed with you. on this, i just dont see it. maybe there are some cut throat leaders out there who encourage like behavior from their charges but most of the time it is just teamwork. Nobody says they are better, they cheer for their team. All 50-150 of them.
im still trying to figure out what you hope to accomplish by replanting someone elses thread here. why not just go there and read it.
maybe you are confusing the issues. You are assuming it was the no link policy, perhaps it was about the site being referenced. mentioning certain sites can be somewhat of a michshol you know. If someone reposted something from an anti frum or anti torah website, i would certainly hope they wouldn’t mention it. it’s like with the secular books, why put ideas in heads of people who are trying to keep them clear of that stuff.
I find it very disappointing to hear someone encouraging someone to take their money out of the frum stores and send it to Amazon. Do you really take such things so lightly over there? Here we do everything we can to encourage shopping at frum stores even if it is more costly and even when you don’t know if you can. This is a yids parnassa we are talking about.
i thought the “i” stood for interesting…
“If a frum jew says its kosher, then its kosher.”
only if he dresses like me….
seriously tho, I am close with someone who is in the higher up of a big kashrus agency. He has had a lot to say about how things operate that i find sad. I agree that it is important to have an agency that follows the guidelines you follow so that you can be comfortable eating there, but i don’t believe anyone can say zd is as wrong as you’d like him to be. there is a lot of politics involved. not just the agency, but in the communities, and who they are “willing” to support. if we weren’t so darn fragmented, there could be a lot less time and money going into the hashgacha because people could trust each other. its not all one way or the other.
When the Steipler was not yet world renown he was collecting to have a sefer published. Two of the people who sponsored a sefer printing were childless. Shortly after donating this money, they had children. One of them named his first born daughter shira.
(not really significant but it sounded interesting.)
or perhaps troll…the paperwork hasn’t come back yet.
MA – are you familiar with the word delusional?
Forgot to add, when you borrowed this friends van for visitors day, who was up at camp? Cuz I know it’s expensive, i mean i haven’t been able to afford it and I have three cars.
Gavra – EXCELLENT post!
Joseph – 🙂
MA – i don’t know if you realize how offensive your words are. Besides the fact that it is ridiculous to talk about your childhood experiences years ago and compare them to now when the world has changed drastically, what kind of business do you have to make such a comment?! You cannot possibly be responding to my post because i said we bought a car for our daughter to get to SCHOOL, not work. But we didn’t buy the car for our daughter, it was for us to use to make sure she had a way to work as the other kids needed rides during those times.
How unrealistic for you to think a person having a job can afford a car, gas and insurance. What kind of job do you think this 19, 20, 21 year old is holding? And to say it with such confidence without knowing anything about a persons situation.
You like to talk about all the things us little people need to do to bring moshiach but you seem, somehow, to be missing some of those little tiny things called sensitivity and anava that are actually MUCH MORE CRITICAL. So am i being insensitive? Sure, call it what you wish. I would like to think i am defending the pride of those people who may have been hurt by your flippancy and misplaced confidence. And I am doing you a HUGE favor because as a (to quote you)financial manager who is also a psychologist, it can only be very beneficial for you to know how people actually live and feel.
No need to thank me for this free lesson. I am a self proclaimed life coach or something. Right Joe?
wolf – you are so awesome. was thinking that myself.
sometimes I see headlines on the front page or in the jewish papers that mention cities/communities but i have no idea what state they are in. i guess they figure everyone already knows!
and for the record, when i saw the title, i thought lefrak sounded hebrew and that it was in israel somewhere.
as a disclaimer, i don’t think i am poor so the thread title makes me a bit uncomfortable, i just realize by posts here that many people are fortunate enough to be unaware of some of the things that go on around them (B”H) and i am just hoping to help bring some awareness.
zdad – thank you for having some understanding here, the car issue is a tough one to explain to people. They can’t imagine having cars is anything but a luxury or something you can cut when the budget is tight.
we actually have three cars. two of them are from the 1900’s and are used for getting my husband to work and my daughter to college. the other drivers/kids have to get rides or walk to work and school so we have about 6-8 ‘carpools’ a day. there isn’t a cheaper option for us. even the schools bussing would have cost us more.
lesschumras – that is true only in theory. there are people who have “too much” income to qualify for medicaid but have expenses (such as loans, therapies, medical expenses that are not covered by insurance etc.)that leave them literally in the situation newbee described.
people who are honest and report all their income but don’t have more than 2 or 3 children do not always qualify.
It is also very common to have older children living at home until marriage but after 19 (in IL) they no longer qualify as household members so supporting 5 older kids can be a tremendous expense but you are calculated as someone living alone.
when my son got a job, because he lived in my house his income disqualified us from getting subsidized school lunches even tho he does not pay us any rent. and we could not afford full prices for the program.
while not common, being that poor is not necessarily as uncommon among our regular community members as you might think, but it is definitely well hidden
(not arguing, just clarifying)
sushibagel is right, if someone can’t get in her shoes, and if you have never been in that situation, maybe this isn’t the right thread to post in.
sushibagel – SO RIGHT!!!!
the responses from some people was so far off. tell me how i can budget an income of $50000 with an outflow of $70000. sell a car? got it!
mammale – i think that’s a great idea, especially if you are able to get milk subsidized. midwesterner’s wife happens to make awesome yogurt and got me on the kick. I once tried making my own cheese but found out it requires too much milk to be cost effective.
I know someone from a frum home named purple. i think her parents thought it was funny since she would never really use her legal name. im not sure i agree on either point, that its funny or that she wont need to use her legal name at some point.
mw13 – i missed that earlier post of yours, by the way, and hadn’t seen it til now. i guess you thought i was responding to it but i wasn’t. i was calling you “nuts” because you/joseph were asking me if i was “making assumptions” which was just to chepper me (referencing that old dialogue) and i had a choice to take it seriously and ignore it, or take it in jest and respond so.
in the spirit of continuing the conversation, tho, you answered yourself really. the same way Rav Chaim “saw” shulamis, he also “sees” shira.
fraud? Gd forbid! I don’t think you are a fraud!
which one? Shira?
zogt – i get the feeling you are either a girl pretending to be a boy, or a non-yeshivish person (of either gender) pretending to be yeshivish. just saying.
i try to be respectful and answer each to his own.
Joseph – do females eat thursday night chulent?
*shudder*
what are you talking about? i was joking around and joseph/you got bent out of shape. denigrate others? spew insults? which part, the DUH part or saying someone is nuts? cute…
I think you may want to take a few deep breaths…
that is so random and out of context. I did notice you happen to get a bit mean when i call out your alter egos.
‘nuts’ in the above post means silly, ridiculous. and accusing someone of making up facts is much worse than calling someone nuts for doing so.
and by the way, how do you post as two different users at the same time?
you’re both nuts. although i am guessing it is either failed attempts at humor, or failed attempts at trolling.
You only need to know ONE person named Shira who went in and wasn’t told that to know that not every Shira was told that. DUH!
And I happen to know more than one.
And after this week i may know even more.
ill be happy to answer that but you already know the answer. how would anyone know that?
mw13 – you missed my point (i think). Rav Chaim does not say that to every Shira who sees him. he said it to a handful (or more) and you have no idea what the reason he picked those individuals was. Perhaps there was a reason that those women could not afford a less connected or less “rooted” name. If it was ONLY about the name, i’m guessing he would say it to everyone.
unless someone heard that he gave a blanket statement that all Shira’s should pick new names, that is.
abba – please do not take my words and distort them so perversely. First you have changed your own lines and references, fine. then you started changing mine around and that kind of nullifies the conversation. but this last post is just over the top. here’s what I wrote:
We are talking about children who are so pure that they are not mechuyav in mitzvos.
The public schools accomodate special diets all the time so kashrus does not HAVE TO BE an issue.
here’s what YOU think that means:
There are those who feel that since they are special ed, their souls are pure and they are not held accountable for their sins. So even if they eat non kosher food their soul still remains pure.
and then you have the chutzpah to compare those of us who care for these childrens souls to kapos! You are a sick man, sir. A sick man.
his mcdonalds comment is actually right on the mark, there just isn’t anything to talk about anymore. some people are so unaware of life outside of their daled amos that they actually thing the world spins that way. and other people just keep changing around the details so there is not much option for discussion.
zdad is right. it is not the governments obligation to pay for personal choices and if they do start paying for OUR choices, they will have to start paying for other cultures choices. If your school is still having christmas parties, opt out. kids in my school do it all the time on those very rare ocassions that religion is brought in to the curriculum.
i dont know how many people were told that by R, Chaim shlita, or how it was said. But i do know two of the shiras who changed their names. Neither went to R Chaim saying ,”Hi, can I keep my name?”. They went for brachos and his response, from what i remember, was that Shira is not a name. My understanding was that we don’t really know if the need to change the name was somehow connected to the bracha he was giving them or the desire for one. Perhaps if they weren’t in need of certain things in their lives, they would not have needed to change their names.
I don’t mean that he made up the reason, ch”v, i just mean that it may not always apply.
I myself have never asked.
I’m not sure if you are reading the responses before answering. I don’t even know what “opinions” you are talking about. someone said there’s a conspiracy exaggerating abuse, I said that it isn’t a conspiracy but people would like to make it seem less then it is. Which post of that is opinion? I am talking from personal dealings with molesters, molested, people who cover up and people who fought them. I wasn’t giving any opinions about this, i was contributing first hand information based on personal dealings to a conversation that seemed to be speaking theoretically. so your complaint against me is baseless asked for all I know part of that same”agenda” you wondered about.
they are
apy – I get it. I misunderstood. I have no problem paying the fee, i just read your words differently yesterday:
You are talking about being entertained and kept busy on tisha bav,
for some people who are bored, unfortunately, they see the shiur as a way to keep entertained and busy. a way to “get through” the day.
yesterday I saw “unfortunately” as a description for the second half of the sentence. It sounded like your description of it as entertainment was comparing it to sitting and watching tv as opposed to having any torah value, which is the part i was disagreeing with.
Could be i was just hungry and didnt think clearly.
1) If there are children there who CAN be integrated, it is against the law to keep them self contained. If the program does not accomodate it, then they are out of compliance with the law.
2)The school I mentioned was nothing of the sort you describe.
3) severely handicapped children who remain in public school special ed programs are losing the benefit of a jewish education but you are being dramatic in saying their “souls are lost forever” That is ridiculous. We are talking about children who are so pure that they are not mechuyav in mitzvos. Unless you have decided to change your mind about who we are discussing, you are talking about children who are so disabled that nobody really knows what language they understand. And now you are going to tell me they will be lost forever? Please. They are pure and will remain so. The public school accomodate special diets all the time so kashrus does not HAVE TO BE an issue. are their friends inviting them out to movies? PLEASE, stop changing the stories around every time you want to make a different point.
I am guessing by your posting that English is not your native tongue. Not being able to communicate fluently in English is fine if your community will provide for you in all ways forever (I have no issue with that), but if these kids who are disabled (not learning disabled, but less severely impaired) never leave your system out there and never learn to be fluent in any other language, does your community promise to provide all THEIR needs for them forever as well?
Here in Chicago they will need to be in jobs in the secular community (grocery stores etc) so a Jewish education is THE top priority but so is reading and writing in English. If you cannot provide life skill training and occupations for ALL these disabled children, ALL of their lives, then keeping them away from english language skills is actually very harmful for them.
You are either for the CHILD, or you aren’t. You need to sort out which of your “causes” are really for the child.
“I dont like this thread…”
then why bump it?
your last paragraph is ridiculous. i also would like these children to be EDUCATED in a Jewish environment.
I have been arguing with you about your unclear comments about rights; and about language being grounds for tuitioning out; about legal comments that i don’t think are accurate; about whether or not a child can learn anything in a public school that doesn’t teach in yiddish; and about the fact that you seem to change the scenarios without realizing it. I would never say that a Jew should be in a public school if there is a needles eye window for getting them into a frum environment. I myself had a child at home for a whole year to keep him out of the public school system.
I have also seen, by the way, a group of frum kids (less disabled) fight to be placed in a frum program that did not have the means, understanding or education to support their special needs and many of them did not grow, get educated or maximize thier abilities. They suffered from a lack of therapeutic interventions and suffered from being mishandled by teachers who could not understand them fully. For SOME of those children, I would fully recommended public school. it would be temporary and the only way for them to eventually have a chance in a resource yeshiva program.
You need to be in it for the kids. But honestly, i don’t think you and i had even gotten to that conversation because so much of the presentation did not match anything i know from my experiences and i think all of our up and back was about the process one goes thru to achieve that.
“but just because somebody disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they have their head stuck in the sand.”
nothing about my posts ever indicated such. all ive ever asked from people is to be honest, speak honestly and stop giving definitive opinions about subjects they are ignorant of. I have always been clear that my position has been about honesty and truth of this subject. interesting how it seems to bother you…
“It ain’t over till the toothpick is dry “
feivel – i didnt know you had a domestic side to you.
overall I agree with you. I would change this sentence however:
“But still, I would ask you to bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of people do not belong to any vast conspiracy; people just view things differently.”
to – the overwhelming majority of people do not belong to any vast conspiracy; people just don’t want to know about it or believe it is true.
Abba – I am sorry, i am having a lot of trouble understanding your responses. I am also talking about Developmentally Disabled. There is no right that I know of that requires children are taught in their native tongue. There are hundreds of children in the public schools that speak no english and they get modifications and reading help but thats it. The special ed programs that teach children of different languages are hardly warehousing. What an awful thing to say. We have many kids who speak no language, or no english, and they are loved and encouraged and they learn to communicate in their own way. The lawyers for the parents are not paid by the schools under any circumstances that I could find. and we were not talking about a district deny special ed services, as you mentioned in your response. we were talking about a parent wanting the public school to pay for private school tuition because the child speaks yiddish. you cannot win a tuitioning out unless you can prove that the district is unable to educate the child in the least restrictive environment. that is in regard to their functioning level, not their religion or language. the public schools can successfully teach children with NO language, so a second language is not an issue.
And i take offense at the implication that frum parents will have the lawyer pretend that their child does not understand english if he does. that is called sheker, and genaiva and is not something to spout pridefully. Hopefully these parents you speak of who fight for funding this way dont also have a cleaning lady/baby sitter in their house who speaks no english but is left with all their young children anyway.