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“Syag got bent out of shape because she doesn’t understand this difference. I guess it was my fault for not being clearer.”
You are so offensive. This is an outright lie and I would expect you to reconsider your words. Not only do you have no clue what i was told by doctors, even what i TOLD you you refuse to accept. Coupled with your other response:
“A nutritionist or a dietitian? Do you know the difference? Your doctor doesn’t and neither do you.”
I can only tell you that i would never consider a professional of any kind with the lack of knowlege, listening skills or people skills you are demonstrating here.
I meant something more along the lines of neural synapses.
im not sure why this is so hard to understand. these doctors recommended diet and exercise to alleviate the symptoms. They made many recommendations and referred to a nutritionist for further assistance. This is what the DOCTOR did in order to treat the patients. He also followed up to make sure that medical intervention was not warranted.
These doctors did not STARE BLANKLY, they told the patient to begin with diet and exercise.
I don’t know if you have noticed tho that you speak of curing all these complex genetic diseases but when giving examples you talk about rashes, hypertension, and headaches which any schmo on the street will tell you is often corrected by diet.
You say that these posts are taking a lot of your time, well writing answers to you that you ignore and respond by just repeating what you said before is even more frustrating.
im sorry and i wish you clarity and better health.
sorry, my head does not process in english. i doubt there is more than one way to arrive at the correct answer (without cheating) and i didn’t cheat.
that’s the best explanation i can give right now.
my question was “Are you able to accept that possibility? “
I guess your answer is no.
every time you write this “(40 hours! That’s it!!!)” it indicates you really are not hearing as much as just sharing.
July 16th I think. I forgot to write it down and now I have to start all over.
I was here from the start and had read it all. Yes, you gave me lots of examples where people got cured but I wasn’t the one with a question. You said flat out several times that doctors give a blank stare and are ignorant about diet and exercise. You said doctors don’t tell patients to treat their illnesses with diet. When I told you that you are wrong, many doctors do, your answer was a list of doctors who don’t.
I’ll say it again – many many many doctors use diet and exercise as a first step in treating some illnesses. You were exposed to some very ignorant professionals. Other posters have even agreed.
Are you able to accept that possibility?
dont use the posts to me as a reference for anything, they are very sad to read as they are evidence that you have committed yourself to something that you cannot fully defend and your arguments are not holding water to even the unlearned, like me.
Oh, and about the doctor/diet etc issue, I learned one semester of neurological disorders in college but have been treating those patients for two decades. Wanna know why? Because I learned more about it out of college when I found it to be relevant to my field.
There are many, many, many doctors out there who give diet and exercise a front row seat. You don’t want to know that. In fact you are so set on disbelieving it that you are even willing to imply to the other posters that OUR personal experiences never really happened. I don’t know what happened in your history to make you NEED this to work, but you may want to explore that a bit further.
Stam-thank you, but did you miss the point or deliberately ignore it?
You said doctors give you blank stare when you ask about diet.
I told you that that is not true at all and gave personal experiences from several relatives.
Your answer was that it couldn’t have happened because they never learned about it.
Are you able to hear the denial in your words? Your experience with one set of ignorant doctors is isolated. Several posters have said that doctors will recommend diet and exercise as aFIRST option. You should be thrilled but instead you seem to be unable to absorb it.
It it’s this type of unhealthy thinking that makes the rest of it lose validity.
stam – i am not geting involved in the up and back of statistics and studies but I will say two things –
you may have a good point, i never looked into it, but there are, unfortunately, so many holes and fallacies in your proofs and reasons that it makes me doubt the validity of the rest of the info.
also, i have had two parents with cancer, one sister with an auto immune disease, a father on dialysis for years and my husband (yblch”t) has cholesterol and blood pressure numbers that are close to the limits. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEIR DOCTORS discussed the importance of diet and intake. EVERY ONE. that’s almost two or three doctors for each person (counting up all the specialists). My husband is actually in an exercise regimen that is controlling his blood pressure when he follows it so he can be off medicine. Not one of those doctors had blank stares and every one made the recommendation BEFORE/WITHOUT being asked. This view of medical doctors is highly inaccurate. and if your search for answers outside the medical field came from those poor interactions then you may be interested to know that your experiences are very unusual and not a good indicator for what people are experiencing out there.
i have personally watched individuals use the internet to fuel their personal vendettas into world crusades, to validate some weaknesses into full blown failures. But to state that the internet is to blame for kids going OTD when it is known to anyone in the field that 7-9 of every 10 OTD kids has been sexually abused is just a very convinient way for us to wash our hands of a very serious problem. It is also a complete digression of the topic of this thread.
The topic of OTD has been hashed and rehashed on many threads, talking about chumros is important because when it is used as a yardstick for how frum or holy or special you are (as happens frequently in shidduchim or school sriteria) then it is very damaging and some posters here are speaking to that.
Chumros were not made because people felt they had mastered the halacha and want to bring it to a new level. I understand chumros to be a way of keeping yourself safe from a cliff. A way of keeping yourself on your toes in recognition of the importance of staying away from the edge of the cliff. A way of developing sensitivity to the holiness of a mitzvah and guarding yourself from getting too close to temptation.
It is sad that so many people were not taught about chumros in this light. Slamming those people for their attitude instead of taking a step back to understand where it came from just reinforces the fallacy. We keep chumros out of love, or fear, or reverance. Most people don’t know that. And MANY people who DO know that forget to pass it on to their children.
If the sunglasses thing was a fool or rashas idea, their would not have been so much support for it from posters here. Can we listen to people who speak badly of chumros and explain how they express our love for mitzvos? Can we use it as an opportunity to look at our own selves and wonder if we are, Gd forbid, using it as a yardstick to measure our own or our neighbors holiness?
If you explain it, and express your love and reasoning, the people who “don’t accept” the process can continue to do so, but it would give them an opportunity to see evidence of the real purpose of them instead of going on to perpetuate the negative thoughts or reasoning they grew up with.
And to those who develop their distate (r”l) thru altered hashkafos, that is their cheshbon. Counter their claims with facts and you have done what you can.
after i gave birth to my first kid they checked my blood and noticed i did not show immunity to MMR. I was 28. they didn’t know i hadnt been vaccinated, they just noticed that i was showing immunity when they expected i should have. that was why they recommended it at that time. If nobody shows immunity, why were they expecting to see it?
nisht – just saw your post now. I appreciate the qualification, I was aware that Dr. Eilenberg was chashuv but was not aware of his credentials. I still wonder, and I don’t profess to know, if his knowledge as a doctor is enough when we are specifically talking about population and numbers. Meaning, stam is quoting Dr. E’s remarks about the patients he serves, regardless of his stature, it is still a very specific and small population in relation to the entire world. Unless the Dr. was implying research he had done on this subject, and not just who he sees personally. But honestly, especially with all you have said about him, i don’t believe for a minute he said any of those statements above.
but in this particular conversation, we were talking about their perspective. which is what they say.
and thank you zdad for bringin up my last pet peeve. How in the world is the opinion of ONE doctor in ONE city (tho a very remarkable one at that)supposed to be an indicator for the entire world?! (and I am trying not to make any east coast is not the center of the universe comments)
i feel like these conversations will go in circles forever regardless of how much sound evidence is presented. i think that there is a good chance that all the studies are fake, there is a good chance that the government lies and steals your money, and there is a good chance that there are people who get very sick from vaccines. I think the rest of it is just nuts. Here are a few points that I need to spit out:
my kids were vaccinated and almost all of them walked before 12 months. 2 walked before 9 months. three got sick all the time as infants and never again for the next 15-20 years, two are always sick. I work with children with developmental delays and i can assure you there is no such pattern in my daled amos. I myself had shingles as an infant so I was not vaccinated with the MMR until i gave birth.
regarding autism: you are mixing apples and rubiks cubes. Whether or not a vaccine is healthy or not healthy is completely separate from whether or not it is the cause of autism. Pick your fight and stick to it. 30 years ago symptoms of autism would appear shortly after the child turned 18 months old. this was also the time that the child received certain shots. I think that made the vaccines an easy target. But you know what? It ain’t the case anymore. These kids now show signs of autism (and I have seen it myself) within the first months of birth. BEFORE they would even get immunized. But i will tell you that there is a HUGE number of parents who are in denial about their children’s development, especially in regards to autism, so maybe vaccines cause denial. Or vaccines allow a parent to find a place to rest their denial.
The funny thing (tho it is hardly funny) is that of the 100’s of parents of autistic children I have worked with, almost all laugh in the face of this vaccine idea. They think it is a joke. Many believe that autism is caused by Gd! of all crazy things, right? and many see it correlate to food allergies. I have to say that food allergies is the strongest option i have seen as a possible contributor.
If you don’t want to vaccinate your children, that’s fine. but be sure to keep them away from the elderly and people on immunosupressants and chemo AT ALL TIMES. your child is a loaded gun. And you mentioned before that it isn’t valid to compromise your child’s health for the greater society (forgot how you worded it)well good for you. But don’t you dare compromise the health of the greater society for your child.
actually, when you speak with some of these people you will hear the opposite. They were given over chumras as if they were halachos and I have heard them say that they had a lot of problems with that. some complained that they were taught that wearing certain clothing was “on equal footage” with keeping kosher. Regardless of whether or not their complaints are valid reasons to leave, i have heard first hand the the rules Gd made were good enough but that they could not live within the confines of the “extra” rules their parents put on them and were told it was all the same. Again, this is not about them being right, this is what some of them say.
One girl said that she thought wearing short socks was actually on par with breaking shabbos.
Unfortunately most people out there aren’t singing the praises of their chumros, even tho they should be.
talk about chov – i was trying to defend people who were being spoken to harshly and I got accused of being a liberal! can you imagine?!
“Kach hi darkah shel Torah – pas b’melach tochal.”
that’s not an answer. with nobody at work, who’s paying for the salt?
So basically you aren’t answering that question.
And regarding the stay at home mom, who’s supporting the husband in learning?
I have read it and saying the husband can help on occasion is not what I’m talking about. How are you deciding which jobs belong to whom? And your attitude seemingly conveys a bit of authoritarianism when it is Gds law, not the husbands. And lastly, who is watching and raising the children?
and frankly, now that you mention it, in my mind there is no greater male role than working but you seem to claim it is our first and foremost responsibility so that our husbands can learn. How is that so? And why have the children become the korbanos in it all?
see, joseph, that is where you are making false assumptions. it is true that feminism is saying that there are no men’s or women’s jobs, but it is not true that this has any connection whatsoever to that.
I agree that in Egypt we were tortured thru being given the other gender’s work. You are the only one who has decided he knows, moshe mi sinai, what work belongs to who. The partnershp we were talking about has no shaichus either. It doesn’t mean cooking is a partnership, it means that if the husband is home from 1-3 and from 6-8 everyday, but the women works until 6:30 (supporting him in kollel), why would he not WANT to make supper? Does she have a chiyuv? Maybe it is her “job” but as partners who share in each others burdens he may have decided on his own that he will prepare dinner. I don’t know if you have ever had serious morning sickness while nursing a baby and caring for toddlers but I have, for many years, and taking out the garbage would not even be on the list of physical possibilities. Should we hire someone or insist that i take it out anyway? That is what we talk about when we say partnership.
I agree with you completely that men should be filling male roles and females the female roles, (I would be ecstatic to quit my job and stay home doing laundry) but Gd has also commanded certain levels of honor and respect between human beings and people who work together sometimes share burdens.
when i worked, my husband made dinner and shabbos. but only because he was home and i wasn’t.
what part of my post said i looked at my neighbors? I guess if you can’t disagree with the content, you make up something i didn’t say.
I have to laugh at you calling me a liberal. I am so far from liberal that I couldn’t even name their leaders. I would love to help you understand where you get that highly false impression tho, if you can step back for a second and listen because you arent the only one who misthinks that.
There are posters here who are very extreme in their views and are often harsh in their tone. I believe that they are so used to being in homogenous settings that they do not realize just how harsh they are sounding. When I try to defend the words of the person they are attacking, i am often confused by you and others as defending the persons views. I am not. Just doing damage control. perhaps you cannot imagine why i would defend a person who i disagree with. sometimes i’m just disagreeing with the harsh or incorrect attitude even tho i personally follow the same doctrine. you misread that as disagreement with the lifestyle. Or perhaps you are telling me that the fact that i think your harshness is wrong is, in and of itself, liberal. I doubt it, but who knows.
I can’t imagine that was explained well enough to be clear. I used to care that i was misread but honestly, i know who i am and i know what Torah requests of me and i am not going to stop defending people who are hurt just because others cant separate the two.
and the idea that you think the only two choices are having a wife who only does what you tell her, or having a wife who refuses to do what you tell her is very interesting. for some of us there is a whole world between those two choices that contains partnership.
Why assume that if a woman doesn’t accept that the cooking is “her job”, that implies she will refuse to do it. The cooking may be done by the woman but if that doesn’t work for them as a couple, it may not be. And as an aside, I know few if any households where the garbage is not taken out by the husband or sons.
Such a farbrente feministic outlook is very unhealthy going into a marriage. The divorce rate has gotten terribly high r’l, and this is a large factor why.
i come from a place were i believe it would great if all kids were raised by stay at home mom’s and no feminist ideals have ever attracted me. With that premise i have to say that there is very little more unhealthy to a marriage than that attitude of yours. And as damaging as it is (yes, is) to a wife and relationship, it is even more damaging to people who read it on public forums and think that you are speaking from a Torah perspective.
Feminism may not be right, but your views aren’t either.
feel free to wonder all you want, but trying to tie it in to Goq and I is just wrong.
chance – some vaccine preventable diseases can be caught twice, for example the chicken pox. It doesn’t mean the vaccine didn’t work, that is just how your immune system works and when you catch it the second time, it is usually much milder and lasts much shorter.
I am pretty certain goqs response was to healths rude “speak to yourself” comment, implying his observation was shtuss. Goq, who never mentioned yeshivish and never stated or implied that yeshivish people can’t be honest even explained that he wasn’t generalizing in his next post.
Not liking his comment is not the same as it not being something that is actually found among some (not all or even most) people.
My father always bought stuffed animals for us. Not always random cute ones, sometimes they were more fragile but reminded him of something. Once he bought me a hen with two chicks under the wings because he said it reminded im of me. When he bought me a mom and baby camel for my 25th birthday my mom said he needs to find another hobby but I love them and they are all in my basement.
I also have the ones he bought my sisters. And while she was in the hospital for a few weeks he bought her a bunch of really big ones. I have let my kids play with some because I don’t like them living in a plastic bag but they are never quite the same afterwards.
I can’t look at a stuffed animal (or a thread about them) without thinking of my dad.
you are right, it is a lot of work. but it is very rewarding and can be fun if you can keep from getting too stressed out. it isn’t possible to be successful at all those things all the time, just to put in the best effort. when i think of the pasuk, “lo alecha hamelacha ligmor” i always think it fits best with raising/working with kids. you can only do your best to maintain a controlled chaos, the rest is in Gds hands.
ubiquitin – altho i stay clear of politics and political discussions, i just wanted to throw in a comment about your question because it really isn’t about the politics.
If you are just wanting to make a point that most people will not be inconvenienced, and you say, “everyone can keep their doctor”, than a very large percentage of people keeping their doctors could indeed be enough to qualify that as truth.
BUT – if you are rolling out a new program, and you say that in this new program “everyone can keep their doctor”, then you are telling us that that is what the protocols of the new program are. That is telling us that the new program that YOU are introducing, is INCLUDING the option of keeping your doctor. It is a completely different meaning. and the expectation is to find a little box on the form that says, “List name of your doctor, cuz you’ll get to keep him”
If I tell you that 40% of the applicants will get in, you will take that as a rough estimate. If I am in charge of admissions and i tell you that 40% of the applicants will get in, then you should consider that protocol and should expect to be able to count on that as a fact.
Keeping your doctor was given as a sneak preview/description of the program, it was not listed as a “lets hope”, “well try for it” etc. Any percentage under 100% having the option is unacceptable.
I wear a tichel outside the house but it doesn’t matter because i am also fat so what do you expect?
I wouldn’t really know.i guess it depends how deep their denial runs.
Old man- thank you, I was wondering about that too.
A relative of mine was told he could not dye his grey hairs even after it was given more than once as the reason for rejecting the shidduch. (Personally, I think his grey hairs on him weren’t the problem. I think the girls wanted to believe they were still 20 year olds dating other 20 year olds.)
a firepit? no worries Torah, he will grow up to be another avraham avinu!
it has to lay unused for a specific amount of time after purchase. I think a year. it was done here in chicago and the remodeling wasn’t started until that time had past (and isn’t done yet). even tho it was empty for a bit before the purchase, i think it has to be left unused afterwards.
cij – i apologize because i am answering without even reading your post. I got to, “But let’s say you were a single girl, and you signed a contract not to get engaged until the year was over. “
i never said, implied, or hinted to such a statement.it’s both a ridiculous statement, and insulting to think i would say that. if the rest of the answer is based on that premise than please reread the posts.
i stopped reading the thread because there was alot of that reflexive – “take what you think you heard and disagree”, or “assume the chareidi lifestyle is being attacked so jump all over it” attitude. i reopened it now cuz i saw you name 🙂 but it seems to have gotten so convoluted that asking people to respect their commitments to children has turned into a defense of an imagined attack on the shidduch system.
whatever.
technical – no words. you sound like a true bas yisroel.
“To answer your question, I would never sign a contract for $250/wk.”
dash – seperate from the rest of this conversation, i think that is a bit of a harsh statement. in life there are situations where you are lucky to have anything, and you can hurt for someone in that situation, or wish better for them, but the better response would be to be grateful that you have never had to sign for that price, and pray that you never have to.
i know you were speaking to these healthy, intelligent girls and not the general population, but knowing people in awful life circumstances i reflexively cringed at the comment. Some people would sign for anything if they knew it would come regularly. Never stop counting even your smallest blessings.
whether or not you feel these girls should be signing for so little, and that is a valid thought – well, that is a whole nother half to the conversation
i did not let my kids put matisyahu songs on their mp3 players (back when it was my choice), but honestly, i have been very pained by many of the other albums from mainstream singers who should know better.
I know it’s an old discussion but i am just saying that while your comments toward Matisyahu’s music may be quite valid, it is not very different than much of the “frum” music so it probably shouldn’t be singled out. it needs to be a consistent message to our children and consistent hashkafos for ourselves. sick music from guys in a suit should probably be discouraged with the same level of disdain. (yes, i did hold back some of the other albums when i realized what they sounded like. just learned the lesson late)
re read every one of my posts. you said marriage is the priority, i said both. every time.
but not without considering staying as a top priority.
the kind of teachers i am looking for for my children will be doing both.
those who are real teachers, will commit even if they get married. whether or not it works out is in Hashem’s hands but they will commit.
(there is nothing wrong with an inexperienced teacher, there is a lot wrong with a girl who is teaching because she has nothing else to do til she gets married.)
as far as starting a career? really? these girls can get jobs as reading tutors, floating subs, permanent subs, office work, secretarial work – all within the same school building without it interfering with a class if she leaves.
Teaching girls priorities and a sense of commitment would be wonderful for klal yisroel. certainly better than what they are learning right now…
i also don’t see evidence that there are not enough married women to staff the schools. Since nobody is at home with their kids anymore (a seperate issue), there are more than enough available. that may just be a geographic factor.
I am sorry, not having a place to learn is one thing, not having a productive zman does not automatically come before chinuch habanim.
DY do you think it’s feasible for a girl to do something other than teach?
I would bet you these girls never even entertained the thought that you need to finish the year.
and i would put money on it.
do you know why? because nobody is teaching them the value of teaching. nobody is teaching them the damage it can do to the kids. nobody is teaching them that teaching children is an unbelievably important priority. priority. They are not being told that. they are being told that when you come home from seminary you teach til you get married. marriage is THE priority. just teach til it happens. What kind of a teacher is that?
you keep arguing that if i say you can’t leave in the middle, it means you shouldn’t get married. Besides the fact that i never said that, why in the world do you insist that these children should have a lichatchila that is harmful to them? why cant the girl place finishing the year among her priorities? And why in the world cant she just do something else. You say a lot about my seeming lack of priority for marriage, you seem to be very strong in your lack of priority for both education and children.
one of my friends had ilness in the family that was going to take a lot of her focus so she took off the year from teaching
one of my friends was having a difficult pregnancy and didn’t know how consistent she could be so she took the year off of teaching
one of my friends had a child who was out of school and would need attention so she took the year off of teaching.
these were all teachers who live paycheck to aycheck but could NOT imagine starting a year with half a head. Hahsem found them ways to pay their bills.
those are real teachers.
yes, i said that if you are more worried about yourself than the class you are teaching – which means that you are not willing to
A) do some kind of cheshbon to stay til june
B)CHOOSE A DIFFERENT JOB
It has NOTHING to do with whether or not you get married. the selfish is on the priority, not the marriage.
regarding it’s all about shidduchim. to heck with the kids…:
again (and again?) if you use this line to excuse yourself from needing to PLAN BETTER so that you can get married AND finish the year, than you have messed up sense of commitment.
you may just have to stop trying to change it to something else. marriage is a very high priority, but only someone with a sense of responsibility deserves a teaching position. Your attempt to indicate that my being concerned for the childrens well being indicates a lack of priority toward marriage is twisted and wrong. you seem to be indicating that as long as you are doing something important, the kids can be left to chaos and i am saying that marriage IS a priority and the children ALSO ARE a priority and there is NO reason in the world that both cant be considered top.
and the comment about an illness in the family is a red herring. who in the world plans for that in august. seriously, the whole point of this thread was about making decisions in august based on your plans for the year and how expendable you consider the children in relation to your plans.