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Chochom-ibber – that was a pretty rude post. Besides totally not fitting in with the more appropriate, thoughtful comments. You must be yeshivish.
and in regard to Wilson continuing his pursuit of Brown, Brown had a handful of cigars on him that coincidentally were just reported stolen (by force)from a store. Should Wilson have let Brown go with evidence in his hands becauce he didn’t want to get punched again? or should he have called him back after he started running away because he was obligated to bring him in as a suspect in a robbery?
DBM – I have not finished reading your post but I did get to here:
Wilson then chose to pursue Brown, who was at that time running away from him. He yelled at Brown to stop, and then fired his weapon again several times when Brown did not comply. He saw Brown’s body jerk with the impact of at least one bullet, and then Brown turned around.
I’m not sure where you got this from, doesn’t sound familiar from the media I read, but more significantly, it does not follow any of the autopsies which state there were no bullets to his back. You can even see the diagrams from the autopsy with the bullet marks drawn in. Nothing from behind. MY GUESS is that that piece of evidence was the most compelling of all in the acquittal.
yytz – such a great post! and you are so right about the politics hounds. Personally it doesn’t hold my interest, I don’t even know who many of the players are.
What you said we do for voting can be to think we know who is best, or think we know who is best, to the best of our knowledge. I think a yid should always add that drop of humility. Know that there is more to any story, there is always more to a person, and that only Hashem is all knowing. If you research something well, be proud. But drawing conclusions from facts without the small addition of “I really believe” or “it seems to me” is, in my opinion, not the proper display of anivus.
I am not necessarily saying I disagree. Those conclusions I listed are NOT fact, they are your opinion based on the facts you pulled out of the media pool. I am saying that I would never feel confident enough to make a statement about someone being incompetent based of media opinions. I would state it as my thought or opinion, and make a disclaimer that my opinion is based on what I have heard. I don’t believe anyone should ever hear pieces of a story, even many pieces, and then turn around and say definitively, “that man was incompetent”. How would you know for sure? And why do you believe that you have enough information to make such statements? I am not asking this of you, per se, I am saying that it is that attitude that I am objecting to.
Another example – I spoke to someone who “knows” that a certain rav picks and chooses who gets food on their table. They told me that they had all the facts about someone who went to the rav for money and was turned down. They knew the person well and they know it happened. They may even have been with the person when he asked for money. The were so confident because they “knew” all the facts. And they felt VERY free to shout it from the soapbox.
What I knew was that this poor person had been day trading. He had taken the money the rav gave him for his bills and lost it all. He lost his mortgage and maxed his credit cards. The rav told him he needed to go for help before he could get more help with his bills. This friend will NEVER know those pieces and will forever be touting the evils of this rav who let someone go hungry (going on 20 years now, he still brings it up)
My point is, you DON’T have all the facts, and a Jew should ALWAYS keep in mind the fact that he NEVER should feel so confident that he can can condemn a man, any man, not even a random police officer. We just don’t know the truth.
You are referring to the facts you stated, I am referring to the conclusions you are drawing:
If in fact Wilson’s life was endangered by an unarmed teenager then he was doing something wrong, or was incompetent.
Letting the Cops off scott free is wrong whichever way you look at it.
Well that would be incompetence or irresponsible.
. . .it is really hard for me to believe that a Police officer acting in a correct and thought out manner would really be in a position where an unarmed person would kill him . . .
I can’t believe that this HAD to happen the way it did.
That’s all I have to know in order to say that the Police Officer could have reacted differently and not killed the guy.
646 – I apologize for my frustrated attitude. As you may have read in the posts above, I see and experience so much destruction and divisiveness in klal yisroel from people jumping to their own conclusions and making assumptions with such certainty in their words. You speak so confidently about things you only know bits about. I believe ALL of us should learn the difference between things we know to be true, and things we assume to be true.
In this situation it may not be a big deal, but this is the exact same attitude you hear from people who question rabbinic decisions, bais din decisions, parenting decisions etc. They know there was foul play, they know it was handled wrong, and so on. It’s something we all need to work on and I respond strongly because of the havoc it often wreaks.
meat loaf? it can be pretty crumbly. gefilte fish, too. how much space do you have?
Most importantly, refuah Shlaima!!
646 – wow, you seem to really know a lot about things you don’t have informaiton on. If I give you some newspaper clippings about a malpractice case can you fill me in on who was guilty there, too? I might even have some witnesses who were in the cafeteria at the time.
awesome points.
When I was a bnos leader I found that the girls from the telshe families and the girls from the non-telshe families were banding (sp?) together against each other very fiercely. When I was able to determine that a lot of it came from feeling ‘under attack’, just as you said, I was able to break some of the walls down. They each worried that finding good things in the “other” girls would threaten their view of how they themselves should be. If only we could feel united by better things we might not have to feel so defensive.
If I recall correctly, there were three autopsies. But either way, you are 100% right about the Israel bashing.
I think we do it about a lot of other things too. When the meah shearim crowd protested the hospital that took a child away from his mother there were mobs of protest calling racism. The problem is, I doubt most of them had a clue about the facts. And I grew up thinking some pretty inaccurate things about chassidish life that I “knew” were true because someone told me they were and it made sense to rally against their lifestyle. There are so many bandwagons we ride on in the name of justice, and the ‘occupancy objectors’ may be the most uninformed and damaging of all.
I don’t hold of NPR much but this comes from their website:
“After sitting through hours of testimony and reading through thousands of pages of documents, a grand jury decided that there was not enough probable cause to indict police officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old.”
I personally don’t know the facts, so I am not going to pretend I do. I would also like to believe that if the decision doesn’t match up with what I had hoped for, I would find a better way to show my disapproval.
yytz – the information about the witnesses was spoken about on the news shortly after the incident. And there was conversation about the fact that the witnesses claiming he was running away were peers of his.
There were also autopsy reports that said straight out that he was shot in the head as he lunged for the gun. It is only a close case in your mind because you are somehow thinking you have the facts. Well the black community seems to think just like you. They figure that if that is what they assume and want to think – poof, it must be the way it was.
Either way, I just find it facinating that you speak about the jurors decision as if you have a clue.
yytz – you make some very unusual comments.
Many people are inclined to believe the other witnesses, because of the sad history of racist violence in America.
I am pretty sure those “other witnesses” are young teenage black men and women. The “history of racism in america goes both ways.
Given the widely varying witness statements, it was understandable to decide not to indict (though it probably could have gone either way).
you cannot be serious. You think they didn’t indict because of the varying witness statements? You think it could have gone either way? Did you read the autopsy reports? Did you hear the hours (days?) of testimony? This was what I was referring to in my above post. The grand jury spent Gd knows how long on the evidence of this case and you are kind of summing it up as, “yea, well there was just so many different witness accounts it could go either way but they picked no”
goofus – you are missing the point of the OP. I believe he is saying that it wasn’t whether or not he deserved to be shot in the scuffle, Goq is saying that he himself could have prevented it by not being in the situation in the first place. It wasn’t a drive by on a bystander.
Not only that, it is so like the masses (all cultures included) to make decisions based on media, heresay and wishes and then decide that that is what REALLY happened and discount the fact that the grand jury had all the details when making their decision but WE DON’T.
you can’t make false statements and then, when someone calls you on it, say that you were talking about something else.
Israel uses the holacaust to get money from Germany to this day where does that money go? Not to the survivors but to the IDF which oppresses people
That is a lie! 100% false! I know someone who works for the claims conference and that money goes to survivors, families of survivors and organizations promoting the education of and preservation of holocaust related causes. How many other of your anti-semetic and anti-Torah comments are lies? Who feeds you these sorry stories?
LG – thanx
oyyoyyoy – so beautifully said!
LG – I know eactly what you mean about feeling distanced from Hashem. The music sparks emotions that are very, very pervasive. You can listen to a song when you are in a depression and 40 years later hearing that song can bring back those feelings and images from those times. Music has a strong effect on us and that is one reason why music therapy works. It can bring people to bad places or good places, it can also keep running images of schmutz through your head long after you would have wished it would stop.
that’s a good question. If he was gonna be blocked I would’ve expected it much earlier. Maybe it was to protect him from predators.
You’ve had about a handful of posters (justifiably) mocking you, taunting you and calling you various names, but my comment about pedophiles joining you in iran gets you angry? Go figure.
does anyone know the emoticon for “laughing so hard I can’t see straight”?
Dash – you beat me to that point. something else that actually happened to me, I was talking to someone and made an eye-rolling reference to a poster whom I don’t know (based on comments that were made)and assuming my friend would definitely not know either. The person I was speaking to told me afterwards that they actually know the poster. I felt really awful.
i vaguely remember reb yid discussing skirts. I sure hope she isnt a he.
wait – I just had a great idea! Hey bp, hows about I raise you and your NK friends tickets to move to iran or gaza or wherever, but you have to take all the pedophiles with you!
bp – you’re thanking her? She’s talking about the arabs that don’t run suicide missions. Not the ones you are somehow sticking up for.
yea, well, shows how much I know. I didn’t find out it was Aguda til my brother gave me the directions before he left for shul. I looked for cr people there but nobody was on their blackberries.
he has a very good point and he explained it in the line you omitted.
protection is from Hashem, no question, but that was your answer to his suggestion of weapons, and that is not necessarily enough. His point is that we should understand that protection comes from Hashem, but not to rely on it. If you are ch”v in a dangerous situation, you would be negligent to stand and do nothing, expecting Hashem to sweep you out of trouble. The more protection you make for yourself, the less open the miracle to save you.
According to some, if one does not have the zchusim necessary to take him out of an unnatural circumstance, he may die even if he was not meant to.
Aguda
spent shabbos in passaic. What a beautiful shul and a really nice community. I was especially impressed by two things:
there were two bar mitzvah boys so they shared the laining. One read three and one read four. Maftir was lained by one bar mitzvah and the aliya went to the other bar mitzvah. I don’t know if anyone in my hometown would consider sharing a bar mitzvah kiddush, let alone split the laining. And my brother said they sometimes have more than two sharing. The second thing was that there is a guy there who has taken upon himself, in the zchus of a refuah to a young boy, to fix tzitzis. He approaches people in shul whose knots are coming loose and offers to redo their tzitzis. They drop them off at his house and he does them there. way cool.
Each case is obviously different but since we are making sweeping generalizations: People are not supposed to kick their kid out because of the negative influence he is making on the other kids. That would probably put the nail in his coffin (as secretagentyid stated). They do what they need to do R”L for his own sake. They are advised to make ultimatums so that he can make good choices or take responsibility for his bad choices. You are naive if you think kicking a kid out for being a negative influence will leave a positive impression on the other children.
“… a game that the objective is to tackle someone who is running at you as fast as he can.”
a game that the objective is “trying to stop your opponent from scoring by throwing him down to the ground.”
look like you answered your own question.
scrapes and bruises happen from time to time, but the more you ride it the better you become.
scrapes and bruises? Have you ever watched kids riding scooters!?! Clearly not!!
ask your pediatrician – scooter riding results in fractured wrists, concussions, knocked out front teeth and broken legs. And getting better is irrelevant. Do you think bikers who get injured are only the five year olds? Ask your pediatrician, cuz that’s what I did. Because my objective is the safety of my kids. If you don’t believe that your boys should play tackle football, by all means don’t let them. But if your objective REALLY and HONESTLY is about children’s safety, there are too many things that are more dangerous that you should be fighting for also (if not first). If you aren’t, then I question your sincere objectives, and I would say to each his own.
I thought the same thing when I read those words but couldn’t have said it as well as you.
Syag, please explain how you have no problem with a game that the objective is to tackle someone who is running at you as fast as he can.
because that is not the objective of the game. I try very hard to keep my kids safe (and that inludes not giving them the car keys til 18) but there is no way to prevent all tragedy, and there is no way to tell them everything is off limits. I have seen years and years worth of football games where nobody gets hurt, I have seen years and years of baseball, soccer and biking where nobody has gotten hurt. On the other hand, the kids with skateboards and scooters have seen many injuries. That is enough to tell me to worry more about scooters than footballs.
I am not from New york. I have to tell you that every single year we hear of a fatal or serious car accident R”L happening in the mountains. Every year. And every year I shake my head and wonder how parents can be so stupid as to ever allow their children to drive those routes with that type of record. Perhaps you are one of those parents, or perhaps you are shaking your head right back at me and saying that the statistics are really no higher than any other road, we just hear more often about the bad news.
Bottom line is you don’t have to agree, you are welcome to protect your children from the dangers that you see before you, but I will do the same.
And every morning I pray to Hashem to keep them alive and well, and every night I thank Him for doing so.
I think Lior’s comment is probably correct but was applicable to you in the past. You’re up to the next step or two from there.
Years ago I knew someone who was married for a very short time and nobody could imagine why they got divorced. He said that he went to many different teachers, rabbis and counselors and they all agreed that he should divorce. I remember that I couldn’t possibly imagine a reason this early in the game that would warrant such drastic measures. Years later he told me that she had stopped keeping any mitzvos and told him she had no intention of changing her mind. She said that if he really loved her he would accept her for who she is.
Yentingyenta – you are so right in your final statement. I would hope everyone always gives it their all before giving up but as I learned from my friend, it is not always reparable.
Is there any reason you have to be rude to someone just because you don’t agree with them?
you might be able to get the forms and fill them out yourself. Sometimes a lawyer isn’t required as much as he is needed for your own protection.
I agree with you 100% in regard to professional football. It has very little in common with the game the boys play in their suit pants in the field.
I am so sorry for your exerience and the suffering of your family. Your accident was tragic, but it was an accident. I cannot, on any level, agree with the rest of your plea. There have been fatalities from many sports, including baseball, and also from crossing the street, and driving a car. But we cannot keep assuring everything. If we are really worried about the safety of the boys we wont let 17year olds get their drivers license, we won’t let ANY young boy drive up to the catskills without an adult, we probably wouldn’t let 15 year olds dorm away from home.
As a mother of boys I am cringing over the list of things people would like to ‘take away’ from the boys for the sake of their well being but tragic accidents are tragic accidents and if they display a level of responsibility when they play, they can avoid accidents to the extent that Hashem decides.
So many boys are literally breaking under the pressure of the yeshiva schedule, can we ‘do without’ that too?
squeak – hysterical, as only an oot would say!
golfer – if you were serious I would be very insulted. I don’t work that way and I would hope that has come across in my postings. I also remember being very surprised to find out you were female, I have just “known” squeak for longer. Perhaps my not being chassidish puts the generic default at non-chassidish until informed otherwise. There was no deduction involved at all.
Regarding your next point, I think the mods should mark us all:
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m or f
s or b (sincere or bozo)
l or t (legit or troll)
o or s (original or sock)
totally off topic but –
Wow squeak! Chassidish-ish? I am so floored. You aren’t also female, are you?
wow! that was a beautiful narrative. Thanks for taking the time to write it down, it gave me a wonderful perspective of what you experienced. It also reminded me how much more calm things were back then during war time in contrast with today.
jewishness – I actually fell asleep looking for the titles, 🙂
One is by Rabbi Tatz called: “Can Your Free Will Affect Me?”
I think the other one was in Rabbi F. Schachters parsha lecture but I will have to double check that.
which speaker?
jewishness – i know it sounds awful, I actually heard two shiurim on this concept on torahanytime when it came up in the parsha with yosef and his brothers. It is so amazing!
finding a replacement habit isn’t always so easy. If you are biting your nails because of the chewing or the oral component, sometimes chewing gum will help. I’m sure in some circles it’s worse than nail biting but you get the point. If it’s about the peeling sensation, some people have put on layers of nailpolish that they can peel off when they get that urge. (Clear polish doesn’t always show the damage). We used to pour glue all over our hands and let it dry so we could peel it off, that was a great replacement but not real convenient.
That was what I meant by finding out what it “does for you”. One thing that worked for someone was to bite down on their fingertips (not hard enough to hurt, just to really feel it) every time they put their fingers to their mouths. It was still the same kind of “stimuli” but no damage done.
I was wondering about that, too
I’m going to try it without the shallot jam. Maybe some shredded beef or a layer of kishke. Or shredded pastrami! My daughter just mentioned today that she wanted to get a recipe just like this from a friend but the middle layer was of ground beef.
PAA – I wasn’t really addressing any “deep seated” meaning, I was just talking about what your body uses it for. For instance, some people chew on pens or tap their pencils against the desk. If you look around there are some people who will shake their foot or leg while sitting. These are all (what OT’s call)self regulation strategies.