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A middah tovah limaalah is never to reveal private information about another person unless they tell you go and say. To the point that Moshe Rabbeinu would not have given us the Torah but for the fact that Hashem told him to.
But, we for the most part are not at that point. Therefore, use indicators to judge if you can reveal the information and the stronger indicator when contradicotry indicators present. For example, your friend stands in front of you and tells everyone passing by information and to keep it quiet; you need to decide which indicator is stronger.February 11, 2009 1:31 am at 1:31 am in reply to: The Cunningness Of Hashem So Apparent In The Creation #637453
Feivel that was nice. Liked that alot.
Thank moish for the support. I think the rare times I post because I don’t have the time some pple don’t like it much.
For every person there exists a reason you believe in Hashem hopefully based on knowledge and logic. For everyone, the reason is different. The briah provides fact and you provide thought; this is the first step to ‘knowing’ Hashem according to the Rambam among others. With a proper investigation, you will understand there is a God who is the controller, the basis of torah. Then, you need to turn your logic into something concrete, accomplished through learning/a furthering of your understanding/building on the original thought. (Then, you can have emunah the part where we are loyal, faithful.) The end result is you “see the genes” rather than the “expression.” For one that sees the genes, there in no suprise as to the expression, such as “nature”. (my ravs words) Estakel biorisa oobarah almah-I looked into the Torah and created the world. The Torah determines the expression of the world which only becomes obvious through study.
Anyone with intelect is obligated to determine truth for himself/prove to himself. Anyone who thinks that there is room for doubt for anyone does not believe strongly enough because, then, they believe doubt is possible despite being complete truth. illogical, incomplete thought. The only reason there are people who do not accept torah is they aren’t involved in an all encompensing life search only for the truth and for nothing else or they are still in the ‘process’ or they simply don’t like the obligations that come with it. We are obligated to faccilitate those who are searching because they are looking for truth and we have it. (We are not sensative because its the ‘nice thing to do’-although it is- the reason is the torah said to.)February 9, 2009 11:50 am at 11:50 am in reply to: The Cunningness Of Hashem So Apparent In The Creation #637430
Two of my professors are the top researchers in their respective fields and seriously believe it. My investigation proved it false. If you need to investigate it, do so. I did and I walked away.
Actually, in one of my classes on the processing of logical thought for my BS, three guys in the class asked me why I am taking a class I already know because Jews are taught to think logically. Anything that teaches you logic and thought while providing information cannot possibly brainwash you by definition.
But, you seem quite intelligent, and therefore, if you really want answers and you push yourself, you will find them.
But, anyway, I have to leave to retrieve my sample from the incubator before its destroyed and attend class.February 9, 2009 1:51 am at 1:51 am in reply to: The Cunningness Of Hashem So Apparent In The Creation #637425
I just have one question for all the people who believe we cannot conclusivly prove Hashem and Torah are the absolute truth and our faith is not simply based on ‘belief,’ ‘feeling’ and ’emotion.’
Why do you act on it then?
You, yourself, are then not listening to the Torah which says emotions should be based on knowledge, understanding, and logic not ‘feeling’.
That is what the rest of the world believes. Emotion first then come up with some backwords rational for it. Torah does not like rationalizing. Most of you went to college with these stupid GenEds where people sit around and speak about what they feel and then their reasons.
Torah is fact and it can be proven for those who are not to lazy. Men need to pick up a gemara and seriously learn for themselves until they see there is no other option and the truth is clear. Women can do so other ways learning different materials and simply looking at the world.
The alef bet begins with an alef middle is mem and end is taf for no other reason than to tell us what is emet.
Since teen wants to know how we can prove Hashem is running the world, he must have some reasons as to why he may not. Teen, can you please explain to us and then we can maybe answer your question to your satisfaction. But, ultimatly, you will need knowledge from study to see black and white.
A doctor knows intrisicly when a pt walks in after a history the diagnosis because he has studied to the point the it is black and white. If you do so, you will find all your answers.
Have a good night.
When the person spoken about is present at the time the information is related and does not protest: Do not assume he is in agreement as he may believe there is no point in fighting, he did not want to cause further machloket, or even if he usually argues assume he overcame his yetzer in this instance. (You can also assume he is just better than the person speaking!)
The person relating the information has additional aveirot of embarresing someone publicly aside from the dozens of aveirot and the kilkulim.
Lashon Hara can come in any form. It can be written or verbal or through the use of expressions or any other way you can think. (We can see the issur of writing when Yoav showed David HaMelech’s letter to Bnei Yisrael.)
Nor do you have permission to include someone else with your negative comment about yourself. (We see this in Yirmiyahu.)
Im: “kal regah viregah sheadam choshev piv liginut zoche lioor sheein kal malach oobiriah yachol lishar.” Every moment that a person closes his mouth to negativity he merits the light that every malach and briah can’t experience. If you think your business and family meritted this much from preventing the spread of single piece of information that was fairly public, imagine the reward in the next world. I am jelous of you in that respect.
To continue from Joseph, ill feeling/richilut includes:
(1) he/she wants/will act
(2) he/she wants/will say
(3) he/she did
(4) he/she said
any normal person will have ill feeling regarding the one who intends harm unless you are speaking to a proper person to prevent lashon hara or harm. these concepts are well known yet not paid attn to much.
Noone posted more laws. Hopefully, the zealousness to eradicate this disgusting middah still continues.
Three excuses to for judging other licaf zichut.
(1) he did not intend to committ it
-those two are very similar to me, the c”c uses different words though
(3) he did not know the chamur of the isur. a good example is the middah of jelousy which is clearly assur from the torah but the klal does it.
(Last post left out the toelet: to have the midubar do teshuva as it is not reason enough to speak.)
No one posted new laws in a while.
There are three types of toelet:
1. To help the victim.
2. To degrade evildoers.
3. To remove doubt from one’s heart.
In order to apply a toelet, asses if the toelet has a probability of acctually occuring and harbor no resentment.
In other words, will the victim acctually be helped? Or are you just behaving zelously for the victim and will accomplish nothing through your information? Are you saying the information to late? Number 2 is easy; we need to prevent people from emulating his actions. Number 3 means that yes we can vent when we are in the proper place around the right people. You have to know they won’t accept the information as fact before hand…
Remember, this is only condition 5 of the 7 conditions nesecary to relay information.
As ridiculous as responding is, I still want the last word. (People just think I’m older; but, I’m still a kid.)
All of the Torah is [(forever living in the hearts and minds of) is English we use determine] determined by our chachamim. (All A is B)
And, the entire world is a constant reflection of Torah. (All C is A)
And, since A, B and C exist; the world is determined by the chachamim. (All C is B.)
Proving validity is easy according to the modern logic system. (Easier if I would know enough to understand Torah.) It is sound to because the premises are written in the Torah. There is no rebuttal until the day someone proves one letter in the Torah incorrect. Because that is impossible, the argument stands as fact. Your argument cannot be arranged as such.
Sometimes, the only way to force acceptance of an opinion is harsh language, which is the reason why we are commanded to put on an angry face for our children.
Amichai, I’m glad I don’t know you and your wife.
It’s such an oxymoron. The same day the girl agrees to belong to one man, she posts pictures of her for all the males in the world to see. I’m sure that shows modesty and her devotion, somehow…
SJS, I’ve just returned from a really long day at school w labs, research, and professors. Therefore, forgive me if I come across as harsh. I am absolutly exhausted.
The argument in this thread is refered to in the language of logic as a fallacy. The conversation is completly circular. We are both repeating statments and therefore it is pointless.
Anyone here can think of hundreds of instances in tanach where we were punished for judging our judges and multiple chazals stating the way we must approach and consider our rabbanim. My words will be interperted strictly and multiple personal examples will be used as some could possibly think incorrectly as appropriate premises for your conclusion. Your arguments may appear valid however they are neither valid nor sound. Because, after all, tanach can’t be applied to everything in this universe even though torah preceded the world. (The reason for the conclusion I have argued must follow because the torah’s arguments are both valid and sound.)
Now that this is over, the convesation between squeak and joseph is much more interesting. Do you want to watch that one with me?
Just a few clarifications, again addressing point by point:
SJS, I’ll respond to both posts in one place for simplification purposes and because I have a final in a few hours.
First I’ll address the other post as it was written quite a while ago: I used the word probable because for me to have reached a false conclusion was improbable not impossible. But, in any case, you proved my statment yourself. As you are not like most girls, you are able to stand up for yourself. I commend you for your strength but as you said most girls do not have this courage. So, we have to deal realisticaly. As the shadchanim and parents know they are pushing for direct and immediate answers, they should stop because the girls are to weak and they are being harmed by those responsible for their welfare.
Second post: First point: If your rav is a true yirei elokim, such an instance would not occur. Shabti Tzvi appeared as such but in retrospect he was not. Multiple rabbanim of his dor were against him. Additionally, because your rav learns, you are not exempt. You must learn to know if your rav is a rav. Does he follow Torah or not because the moment he tells you something that is an obvious chet there is something amiss? This is hard to discern but completly possible. Human beings are the model relationship for our relationship with Hashem. If we can’t even trust those we love such as our families and rabbanim than we live our lives suspicious of others and we are not trusting Hashem. The key to ben adam limakom is ben adam lichavero.
Second Point: Your response proves you do not know my rabanim. I cannot think of my rabanim engaging in pointless conversation or anything else. If we sit around saying our rabanim are only human what are we? Do you know the chazal, “If our rabanim are milachim then we are men but if they are men then we are like donkeys.” Someone can correct me as I cannot remember the exact words of chazal.
Third Point: My rabanim are not wrong. Those that are, are not the ones that have sufficiantly proven themselves as yarei elokim and talmedie chachamim.
I think this was intended as a PS: As I said, a rav who is a yarei elokim would tell you to see a doctor. Those that would write a Rx probably are not true rabbanim as they are not anavim. A close friend of my father’s who is a rav calls my father to better understand medical situations before making desicions, confering with him. He just does not say yes or no based on a lack of knowledge because he is a rav.
SJS, I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified. In regards to the ear infection, the rav will say go to the doctor because he is an anav and not like the rest of us who feel we can make decisions based on nothing. We feel we are chachamim today because we know medicine or stock markets or whatever your field is however we are exactly the opposite. However, if they feel they are qualified to speak about this shidduch, they 100% should because they know emes. Never doubt a work spoken by a talmid chacham you have choosen as your rav or else you have not placed all your confidences in him and aseh licha rav has not been completed. And those that don’t properly trust rabanim cannot properly trust Hashem. (I’m not infering anything just making a general statement.) Rabbanim will also rarly say drop the shidduch unless the feel there is an extreme nesecity; rather, they will speak to you until you have come to a firm desicion as I know from experience.
Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain. The problem is we do and therefore believe the rabbanim are like us. We speak divrei leitzanut while they speak emet and that is just the way it is though they’d never agree.
I am guessing that the probability of those that responded stating girls should stand up for themselves are male. Although you are all correct, girls have a difficult time with this. An extreme example: Is anorexia more prevelant amongst the girls or boys. Yah, it’s crazy but girls succumb to pressure easily.
Sorry, what I intended to say was there are halachot and eitzot there about negative information between the two parties and others. But, I don’t think the c”c specificly states broken engagments although that is usually the purpose of those that wish to harm because they are nogeah bidavar.
The explanation I wrote is just from general halachot in the c”c.
But, again, this does not nesecarily apply when a side is full of talmedei chachamim and yirei elokim because they will harbor no resentment. You need to know before asking them for information if there are any unsettled feelings. Personally, from a family member, we were asked about a person who broke off an engagment. B”H, we had no resentment. The girl was really good but not ready at that point; she was pushed into it. We were able to give good, reliable information and we have received the invitation in the mail. For some this applies and for others it does not.
Many times the c”c says you need to know the tevah of others.
Look in the end of the c”c in the last tziurim. I unfortunatly cannot remember which one although I believe it is the third that disscusses a little bit about shiduchim.
Shkoyach, the reason is because you are allowed to discuss information for a toelet which includes only for the good absolutly no sinah/hatred along with no additions or subtractions and, we know, lifnei iver to titen michshal/before a blind person do not place a stumbling block hence the halach listed above.
You cannot speak to ones enemies regarding a person. Additionally, if you accidently say, “but I heard he/she is a ben/bat Torah,” I don’t think I need to complete this to tell you this is avak lashon hara or even perhaps l”h itself because we cannot praise people before their enemies.
Not only that, you may become caught up their emotions and loose the fact that you are speaking for a specific toelet and possibly believe such falsity, anger and cause accusations in shamiyim endagering the whole klall.
I think we all understand this theoretically and agree with many of the adults here. However, practically some things are not realistic.
Some of us have class from 8:00 am until 5:00 or 7/8:00 pm followed by hours and hours of research and homework followed by exams followed by home responsibilities followed by responsibilities to our pears and community and don’t forget about work to pay for tuition. As great as these privlages are, they come with multiple responsibilities.
Realistically, I’m lucky if once a week works during crunch times. Yes, we must marry and have a family but we need to responsibly support them as well.
We’d love to be completly finished and sure in one week, but, most of us simply can’t. Most of us don’t even know how we will be able to plan a wedding while completing school set up a home and miss time for the wedding itself and sheva brachot. Physically, the answer is obvious. We can’t do what we can’t do. So, please, stop pressuring your daughters and sons to move faster as they have alot to think about aside from marrige and children. They have enough stress don’t hurt them. Too many of my friends come crying to me that they can’t make up their mind and their parents and shadchan are demanding definitive answers. Please, don’t be the one to hurt your child that instead of turning to you they turn to a friend with such a delicate matter.
So, am I faulted after returning from a date for speaking to my father who is somewhat subjective when it comes to his little girl out of kibud av but making the decision with my rav who is looking at everything with daas torah and then calling the shadchan with a final answer (even if the phone rings fifty times while I am deciding with my father and my rav.) Torah is the reason I am doing this, therefore, kibud av followed by daat torah.
The rabanim know an aweful lot more then we give them credit for understanding. Those who think they are chachamim are tipshim and its converse holds true.
If we are using the torah to say 18 lachupah then every girl needs a rav also. God said all his commandments not the convenient ones. If you, as a father, have a daughter without a rav, then send her out to find one because this is every father’s responsibility.
My way really works. (Well, really my rav’s way.)
Get in touch with a ‘smaller one.’ If they like you, they will quickly befriend you and talk to shadchanim for you because, for the most part, they know each other. After, the shadchanim call you. From personal experience, it works. Oh, keep in touch with a rav throughout just to make sure everything is according to Torah, and you don’t fall prey to the reputation this world has.
This thread is great.
Aside from just writing the instances we cannot speak l”h, can we list the seven conditions which must be met in order reveal the information?
We probably usually stumble when we say there is a toeles but we forget that there are other conditions nessecary to reveal the information as we are great at finding thousands of reasons the rules stating when we can’t speak aren’t applicable.
I said I would not reply to avoid debate. But, this should not prompt debate. This was something I felt was important enough to go around my original statement to reply. Yes, my rationalization is explained below for those interested.
Nothing I said was false.
I am 20. Is that a young adult?
I am 20-year-old college student and, according to my plan, will finish at 23 turning 24 depending on the path Hashem sets for me. Because this is a fairly rare situation for my programs, I would prefer not to give any other personal information other than what I revealed in a few other forums. I think I may have already revealed too much.
I just wanted to say that fighting is painful for those who watch. Think of a husband and wife fighting; think of the pain of their children; think of the pain of the grandparents; and think of the pain of their siblings. Both sides have a view point but who cares who is right or wrong. Look at the affect of the fight.
Please, be careful. Even on the internet, your words have an effect.
For those who intend to sleep tonight (finals exam period so I’ll be up for a few days!), have a good night.
I typically only respond to science things. But, I wanted to share some of my story with you.
I’m not trying to preach. The idea of ‘making someone see the light’ is stupid and pointless to me. I just felt you were in pain and wanted you to know other people have gone through it too.
yank, i think you may want to look up the definition of a predisposition. if cancer isn’t killed, you are. that simple. take advantage of the treatments that have been proven. don’t kill yourself looking for something without sideeffects. the effects of cancer are so much worse. currently, we just don’t know any other effective treatments. there are just so many different causes that you can’t just say come up with a treatment. these things are complicated and take time. one major idea out there now is find each environmental cause like HPV which is on the news alot now. there are tons of researchers looking for easier methods. but, if there was one proven, it would be in use in the general population within a very short period. don’t worry about that. thats for the docs to make sure they are aware. just do what the doc advises. don’t waste any precious time.
There is tons of reseach going on in almost every hospital on cancer.
This theory may have a little truth to it in that there are environmental cancr causes. But cancer is primarily genetic. its been proven. come on, an ‘extracellular phenamanon.’ any doc writing on this site should have been trained ohterwise.
Thanks you Feivel. Someone finally said it.
Feivel, great post. Wives are supposed to cook, bake and keep house for their husbands and children. Moshiach must be coming if women don’t understand this concept. I work and still cook dinner and shabbos because that is what women are supposed to do. (Yah, we eat late most nights.) BY should teach more useful classes. I learnt most halacha at home from asking my father and husband. When I attended college, I was far behind the other students. BY does not provide an intensive, good education in hebrew nor secular subjects.