ubiquitin

CA

Thats nice of you, thanks for the message

Can you pass on a message to Dear Barack

We know you love us! thank you so much for your support during your presidency. Thank you for saving the lives of who knows how many Israeli citizens by pushing for Iron dome funding. Each one is like an entire world. I still remember shivering with fear as Netanyahu told the world Iran was “months away from nuclear weapons” Yet here we are years later still safe thanks to your hard work and efforts !
Ashreicha baolam hazeh vetov loch leolam habah

NC

“Is there not just a definitive proof that we do or don’t weigh acts based on their punishments? ”

Yes. There are many. Though the best one is Rambam Roteiach 4:9 וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ

I elaborate on this in a longer post that (I assume) is awaiting moderation.
Although other aveiras are in some aspects more chamur. In others murder is worse it contains הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם. OF course severity of an aveira is somewhat based on severity of onesh, this isnt absolute.

KY
“no
its assur from the overall idea of gezel which extends rto personal autonomy over their body as well”

and if gezel wasnt assur you wouldnt know that it was assur.
Look if you want to categorize rape as a form of gezel I’m ok with that. It is a terribly abhorrent gezel. that seems reasonable

“i gave you the page of the rashi”
מאכילין אותו הקל הקל – אם אין לנו דברים מותרים כדי צרכו ויש לפנינו מיני איסורין מאכילין אותו הקל הקל שבהם:

טבל ושביעית מאכילין אותו שביעית – לאחר זמן הביעור שהטבל במיתה בידי שמים והשביעית בעשה:

Yes I saw that, and I responded several times (t o be fair I dont know what posts went up when) that of course for things that we wouldnt know are assur, we only know “how assur” they are based on onesh.
I’m saying that this isnt absolute.

“kluger is the one arguing that we DO infer based on punishment,”

that should read. “solely” Of course we judge to a extent based on punishment as Ive said from the start

KY

“in which case does the victim feel worse. im saying that doesn’t equate with the perpetrator having done an objectively worse crime.”

why not?
You say “he was a king. it was for midos” I dont fully understand your response. Are you saying the two thieves are just as bad?
If so why did Dovid call for such a severe punishment?

“its a limud מאי חזית דדמא דידך סומק מדמא דחברך”

Aha! its a sevara. Ie something we (read: chazal) came up with on our own. They didnt say, “well Shabbos is more chamur becasue it has a more serious onesh and we dont give up our life, so for mere murder for sure don’t give up your life.”

As the Rambam says rotzeach 4:9 (referring to locking in kupa,) וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ.

Sure in some (many/most ?) regards some aveiros are worse than murder. however this does not change that In another regard murder is far worse. I dont pretend to understand how Hashem judges various crimes. But clearly in some aspect murder is worse than Shabbos it has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” It isnt a stretch at all to say rape too has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” (As the Torah says “כִּי כַּאֲשֶׁר יָקוּם אִישׁ עַל-רֵעֵהוּ, וּרְצָחוֹ נֶפֶשׁ–כֵּן, הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה.” (devarim 22:26) ) granted the punishment isnt as severe, for whatever reason.
But punishment in of itself is not the sole factor determining severity of an act.

there are different aspects to any aveira. When Sedom set up a bed in which they lengthened and cut legs. They didnt violate any “techincal” sehva mitzvos. It is still abhorent, woprthy of destruction. When dovid heard about the thief, he didnt say “who cares about the details he pays mamon” He was outraged and condemend him to death. now, we dont have din meelch, but I dont understand how you fit the idea that theft is theft

” its bad from a midos perspective (nogea at least for a yid )”
I was asking for a goy.

“killing a father must be a worse מיתה because it’s a worse חטא
Not a difference of לחבירו-למקום”

I dont follow. Could you please elaborate .

“the third is no different then calling a molester a rodef so im not sure why even you would consider that an exception”

because we all know it isnt strictly speaking a case of a rodef. We expand the din rodef for the betterment of society, much as you expanded the din meisis to include zionism. Similarly you seem to be coming around to “and its a violation of personal property rights” (regarding rape). Interesting take, I hear it

Joseph

The Donald asked to borrow my login his words follow:

“Thank you loyal Joseph for your kind thanks, I sit here up at night between tweets, such great tweets everybody thinks they are the greatest, constantly scanning YWN coffee room peopel say what a great coffee room it is the best beelieve me, looking for acknowledgment, and it is sad that most losers and haters don’t thank me here. covfefe”

KY

“A court does not belong meting out punishment based on their feelings.”
Again I’m not up to punishment yet.
I am trying to understand your view. (ie that we strictly judge how bad an act is based on punishment)

I’m trying to understand your view that severity of an act is absolutly determined by severity of punishment.

1) “How do you know which is smaller?
You look at the punishment”

Yes klapi shemaya. How do we know whats worse donkey or cheilev. both don’t seem particulary bad to me? We look at the punishment.
If I were to ask you whats worse being embarrased in public or having you r sheep stolen.

would you say “well if you steal my sheep you have to pay me 5 times its worth, if you embarras me you get no punishment (from beis din (leave out daas yachid that arent lehalacha) So I’d rather get embarrassed”
does that make sense to you?

what;s worse chopping of a leg or stealing a cow.
Ok let me do the math … a cow cost 100,000 dollars so your knas is 400,000, a leg costs well my value goes down, plus bed rest and doctor bill.. add it all up and ok I guess leg is worse

Is that really how you view the severity of an act?

2) You acknowledge rape is bad, if there is no onesh how do you know? Is it worse than stealing? If a single girl would r”l say “please don’t d othat take my money” is she being mesayeah ovdei aveira by encouraging him to do a worse aveira?

3) After how many exceptions, does your absolute rule of greater punishment = worse act fall apart.
So far you have “However that is only על פי סוד.,” “it’s simply because of it being אבוזריהו דגילוי עריות ” “a person can always do תשובה so מחטיאו is not final whereas if you kill him it’s over” expanding the rules of meisis to include zionism. I’m not disputing these specific points.

I’m, just saying that clearly the rule greater punishment = worse act isn’t absolute. As you ackowledge based on the multiple exceptions

4) Nassan tells Dovid of the rich man who stole poor man’s beloved sheep (Shmuel 2 12) Do you think it is no different than a poor man’s stealing a rich man’s sheep? (Yes David was allowed to punish becasue of din melech, my question is WHY did he punish what in your view (if I understand correctly) is an ordinary act of stealing.
Is that in fact your view that stealing a poor man’s only sheep is not “badder” than stealing a rich man’s?

5) “חילול שבת is worse than murder.”

And yet only one of those is one required to give up one’s life for.
And here is the real kicker: how do we know, one is required to give up his life rather than kill?
Is it a passuk or limud of some sort?

1)

“No I categorically do not agree it is among the worst things a human can do to another…but my lack of understanding doesn’t change the truth.”

I’m a bit confused.

why isn’t how bad something is towards a person determined by people?

For example If I were to ask you what hurts more getting stabbed or shot r”l. would you say well the Torah says the punishment is the same so they are the same.

Or a better example IF a person tortures and kills someone. Is that just as bad as killing since the punishment for both is the same ?

I think i’m missing something .

also do you have a mekor fr this idea that something being bad is determined solely by the punishment?

As to why the Torah didnt mandate misah, maybe being meanes is so bad that he doesnt even deserve the kaparah of misas beis din? Or “I happen not to understand it. But I think that that is my short coming”

It seems to me than when faced with this “stirah”
If its so bad why doesnt the Torah demand a worse punishment. can be resolved wither by saying its not so bad (though I don’t know why) or by saying Its horrible, I don’t know why the punishment isnt worse.

why do you take the former approach?

KY

“sorry for the confusion”

Don’t mention it. I am much more guilty of writing confusing posts.

“yes its definately wrong”
Agreed whole heartedly! BH I love shalom

Now, would you say it is wrong on the level of spitting at somone or stealing a penny (both wrong). Or is it something so much worse, perhaps among the worst things a human can do to another ?

KY
“I keep going back to punishment because that was my original question.”

But you only asked that after my question.

We will get to punishment. Don’t worry, but in some of your posts you offer (I assume inadvertently) mixed messages on the first step eg “But my point is that the western horror attached to “meanes ” seems to be completely missing from the Torah View.” and “So is it wrong for a non Jew to do such a thing? Of course. Just like its wrong for him to spit in someone’s face.”

Are you saying being meanes is wrong like “to spit in someones’s face”

“Ubiq your second post was posted before I had a chance to respond but I think I responded to it”

You did. you responded that you are unfamiliar with the Gemara, which I find surprising, though I’d have to apologize for criticizing your thinking skills. You simply are unaware of the Gemara

“”Mitzvos ? No I’m not familiar with it. Help me out””

Of course! Rashi bereishins 26:5 (I know how much you like chapter and verse) actullay says BY definition “mitzvos” are these self understood commands “מצותי. דְּבָרִים שֶׁאִלּוּ לֹא נִכְתְּבוּ רְאוּיִן הֵם לְהִצְטַוּוֹת, כְּגוֹן גֶּזֶל וּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים: ”

So I ask you again. Would you say a rule againt being meanes someone is something you’d need to be told? Or is it self understood?

One comment of yours surprised me. “As far as a king, absolutely but remember for most of our history we haven’t had a king and it is actually looked down upon us when we asked for one. So that can’t really be the utopian ideal of taking care of issues”

Are you not aware that “som tasim aleicha melech” is a mitzvah? I don’t understand why you dismiss this so quickly

“please find out from him, chapter and verse, the punishment for a non Jew being meanes a non Jewish woman, and the source for special treatment (ie extra severity ) of a molester.”

Of course! But first let’s think through this. (though I’m not sure why you keep switching to “punishment” I said that it was wrong)

Having gone to a mainstream yeshiva, you must have encountered the chazal that there are mitzvos known to man without the Torah. It’s a gemara, Rashi brings it in Chumash. Are you familiar with this? Do you need chapter and verse.?

Now while I assume you encountered said chazal. It seems that you haven’t thought much about it (no fault of yours. what kind of self respecting yeshiva guy sounds time on Chumash or agadata we read it say that’s nice and simple and move on).

But take a second and absorb the above. There are some acts so abhorent that even without the Torah telling us we would know it’s wrong. (some say this is how goyim are to know all of their mitzvos) Surely, you can grant that being meanes someone falls into that category.
If you can’t grant that. then well, whether you give it weight or not, “that’s perverse thought ” and sadly I’m not sure we can continue since we must be speaking different languages

Thus it is wrong for a goy to be meanes someone (you seem to indicate that you weren’t sure about this, and you switch my question to punishment let’s stick to the above for a moment)

Again, although it doesn’t technically violate any of the sheva mitzvos it is wrong/bad/wicked/sinfull for a guy to do that.

With me so far?

KY
you are right regarding the discussion there. (I asked a confused individual who thought if something is’nt explicitly mentioned as assur then it wasn’t I asked him if that meant it was ok for a goy to be meanes an unmarried woman, he didint answer and you threw in this question though I’m not sure the relevance there (and thats what I “responded” there).

You seem to be making a similar mistake here.
A few questions if you don’t mind

Is it ok for a goy to be meanes an unmarried woman?
whats the punishment for molesting a child?
What the punishment for killing someone without eidim?

Another obvious mistake is this one “Yet from the embarrassment angle, they are both the same.” Obviously you dont mean that (I hope)

Also I’m not sure what this is doing on this thread.
This was the original thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/waiters-finger-was-in-my-my-soup

Joseph

apologies If i’m being unclear

“you were certain I was insincere”
– correct. and I still am certain (90% certain) that you dont really believe that.

This does not negate “Of course people would agree with that extreme position.”

which is also true.
Of course SOME people believe that. I did not mean to imply that all 7.58 billion on the planet beelive women suffrage should be continued. There are all sorts of people out there with all sorts of kooky ideas.

Just having interacted with you for several years now, and watched you in action for years longer I do not think you are one of those people.

user
“And just to explain, the reason I usually say whether or not I read all the comments is to put context on my comment, just in case it was already addressed or the convo has taken a turn you’ll know what I’m talking about.”

Yes I got that.
you are till stuck on Poe’s Law the conversation has long since moved on (Poe’s Law was last mentioned in May) . And No I don’t know what you are talking about So you tactic of Jumping in mid conversation and sticking in that caveat, did not help and just makes you sound foolish.
Read the thread (it isnt long, though it is boring) and THEN if you think you have something to contribute feel free to join in.

Yeshivish
“I agree with Joseph that woman’s suffrage should be repealed.”
Mazel Tov! shkoyach. There is another thread on that topic. that isnt the discussion here.

CA
I’m not sure about that I have heard countless “non-PC” views from my Reeebeim over the years. Many probably more “non-PC” than taking away the right to vote. I’m doubtful that on THIS issue there is some secret cabal to hide it from the hamoin am, but have Joseph give over the secretive Torah True view via the coffee room.

“In other words if you asked them 200 years ago they wouldn’t be afraid of saying no”

I’m not sure the relevance. Yes if I asked them 200 or even 100 years ago they may have opposed woman’s suffrage. But that isnt the discussion at hand.

CA a simple question:. do you think the mainstream view among “Rebbeim in Litvish yeshivos” is that “women’s suffrage must end” ?

Joseph

I am certain he was exaggerating.

Definitely not “everything ” Even if you convinced me that it is a standard view among “Rebbeim in Litvish yeshivos ” that ” women’s suffrage must end” And that somehow in all my years I never encountered this view, you definitely couldn’t convince me that many “Rebbeim in in Litvish yeshivo” think that “What if I don’t want to buy back the chometz from the goy? I should be able to force him to keep it, and pay, just as he has the right to elect to keep it even if that wasn’t my expectation.”

furthermore even, you agree that he was exaggerating. surely you concede that SOME of his rabbeim would oppose they ver yexistence of “Joseph” spedning so much time on online forums. Are you telling me you think ALL ” “Rebbeim in in Litvish yeshivos” Are ok with incessant commenting on YWN ?

“the raid on Entebbe took place on 6 Tammuz, when Yoni Netenyahu was killed, but it certainly didn’t take place on or near water.”

Of course it did! Entebbe sits on lake Victoria!

“Every year there are too many unusual tragedies that take place during summer vacation R”L.”

so true. there are also tragedies that take place during the year R”L. In fact MORE tragedies occur during the year than during the summer. Maybe we should extend Summer vacation over the entire year

Jospeh

” What mistreatment? ”

Here is an example : ” they never should have been allowed in.”
You are of course not alone in that sentiment. This view is pervasive and isn’t very nice, is it?
And THAT dear friend is the real elephant in the room.

Of course your line “And unhindered and unmolested ever since they entered the country” isnt true at all. Though before wasting our time with sources. who would you trust? The Ethiopians themselves? any particular news source that you find trustworthy ? Is J post acceptable?

“The elephant in the room is that the blacks are rioting,…”

thats not the elephant in the room. That is the subject at hand that (almosT?) nobody is denying defending or ignoring

The elephant in the room is the years of mistreatment these people suffered that fed this pent up rage that finally exploded in the unacceptable violence we see today

DY
thanks for the plug

KY

here to help!

1) People dont expect better from them. Many here (not me don’t worry) expect Charediim who claim to follow the Torah to behave as such, when they don’t, they are shocked and call it out. (You won’t find such comments from me, since I am not shocked and do not expect chareidim to behave normally)

2) (Similar to 1) Chareidim look like Frum Jews, thus when they don’t behave it creates a חילול ה. Most of these protesting Ethiopians do not dress like Orthodox Jews, thus the חילול ה aspect is mitigated.

3) nobody is defending the Ethiopians, that which is obvious doesn’t need to be said. but surprising as it may be there are some here who support the evil Chareidi looking protesters , thus causing others to be moche leshem shomayim

hope these reasons help. They are just guesses I am not one of the “worriers” you mention
I also hope you finally go t some clarity on the difference between doing things with and without permission.

DY

“Was that this guy’s book?”

It didint say (In the Meged, he often leaves out specific details) but when I heard the story from R’ Shurkin, he implied quite strongly that it was Hadras Panim Zaken.

(I don’t have it in front of me so this is from memory)

Joseph
“Surely those that shave will never permit an air conditioner to be set to go on or off during Shabbos.”

Mah inyan shmita eitzel har Sinai?
Is there some sort of heikish between shaving and timers?

ZD
“They cannot block you from entering,”

So you agree.

KY
“So the driver knows it will take him hours to get to Columbia hospital instead of forty minutes
Big help that permit was.”

Of course it s a huge help, the ambulance driver knows not to try to go to Columbia that day and will find out if there are any hospitals in Brooklyn that are open that day

KY
“But when a הכנסת ספר תורה blocks the street without a permit, I don’t call them חיות, because I personally connect with the event so I personally don’t begrudge what their doing.”

So I, (and I asume those posters who wrote the difference is permission) do. It is wrong to close of streets to traffic without permission period.
for Hachnosos sefer Torah, block party, protest or parade of any kind.

“When the gay pride parade blocks my street with a permit, I personally curse them out, even though they are legally correct.
That’s what I’m addressing here”

Except that isnt what you said. I oppose the message behind that parade, yet support thuir right to parade wit h(and only with) a permit. I support hachnasos sefer torah but oppose them when done without permission.

there is no comparison between the protests in Yerushalayim and parades. (which was your OP question)

“You said it beautifully”
thanks! I am quite proud of our driveway analogy, I’m not sure why you are still struggling with this

“…they made a vort you would probably be OK if I blocked your driveway even if I only know your neighbor and not you”
Lol! you obviously don,t live in NY. No I would be very upset if they didn’t say anything or leave a note of some sort.

“So the reason the protesters bother you is because you don’t agree with their cause!!”
Even if true that is not the subject at hand. Yo u are free to chaneg the subject of course. but be clear that Your OP has been answered and that yo understand the difference between protests and parades

reread the OP: “What’s the difference between protests and parades”

Simple question: If you block my driveway, Do you think this is a reasonable response:
“well you let Chaim block it when he did xyz, clearly having your driveway blocked doesn’t bother you, so I can block it for reasons important to me”
?

KY
“How does that solve the issue of blocking ambulances???”
Because they know ahead of time. Do you think ambulances are sitting there sirens blaring waiting for the parade to pass?
Moreover, if that were to happen, do you think the parade would keep on parading or pause to let them through?
(Though doubt his has happened, since as mentioned with permission it is announced beforehand)

“All it takes is a phone call and a few bucks.”
ding ding ding. Write this in bold letters, since you seem to have trouble with this simple point.
Nailed it! this is the key. Read it over and over until you absorb it
Make a phone call, get permission from our representatives (ie from us similar to the driveway analogy) and block all the streets you want for any reason you want .

that VERY SAME block part is wrong if they just wake up one morning and decide to block the the street for a party.

“And if the current protestors got permission, it would be perfectly fine for them to be snarling traffic all around”

Yes this isn’t complicated. and it is quite clear, Though your tone seems needlessly snarky as if you still don’t quite get this simple distinction

Its wrong of you to block my driveway. Aye when my friend comes to visit he blocks it? why the double standard?

He has permission.

“But without that permission, no matter how urgent the cause, it’s not OK.”

herein lies the problem, who decides what is an urgent cause ? I think the fact that my corner pizza store started putting pineapple on pizza is urgent, do you think I should be allowed to be ” snarling traffic all around” ?

There is a process we have elected officials we entrust to make thsi decisions, it isnt practical to take a poll every time an issue comes up, this is called representative government. If you feel strongly about an issue, elect politicians to represent you, who support parading for Israel, protesting drafting ledyggeyers, or who oppose pineapple on pizza, as the case may be. But just because YOU dont’ like (or do like) something doesn’t mean you can block traffic or even block my driveway without going through the proper channels

CtRebbe
“Ubiquitin- Perhaps it is a pointless argument…”

so don’t argue, You asked a question:
“Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America?”

you have received several answers:
1) A large percentage of Klal Yisroel, Bnei Torah, Orthodox Jews, speak Yiddish as their first language.
2) Even for those who it isnt their primary language, as several posters have attested, most understand Yiddish
3) Tradition!
4) Furthermore, to many chasidim especially Hungarians there is an issur the first of the takanos michalovityz reads “אסור לדרוש דרשה בלשון אומות העולם”
5) Agudas Yisroel hosts the siyum. At the head of Agudah sit the chassidish Rebbe’s and Litvish Rosh Yeshivas. They believe ( right or wrong) that Yiddish is a holy language.

These are all fantastic answers. If you want an English only event (to be more inclusive of course) start your own.