ujm

Until the postwar period it was not so easy to differentiate between MO and Conservative. They were often interchangeable and the some clergy and regular members easily shifted between one and the other.

The big postwar break came with Conservative officially started allowing things like driving on Shabbos. They tolerated that and worse for decades until then, but that’s when they started officially justifying it with pseudo-religious arguments emanating from their Rabbinical Assembly.

While the RCA reversed itself on using microphones on Shabbos and didn’t officially permit driving on Shabbos or open gender seating in shuls, the reality was even until the 21st century some OU Shuls had no Mechitza and some even had open parking lots on Shabbos, even if the latter at least wasn’t officially condoned, it was certainly tolerated with a nod and wink. Avi Weiss’ synagogue is still an official OU Shul till this day.

Sunday is no different than Tuesday or Wednesday.

N0m: There is little gap between the Reform and the Conservatives. The gap between Orthodox and Conservative is unbreachable . For examples, on the issues of homosexual conduct (officially approved by Conservative), female clergy (officially approved by Conservative), driving and violating Shabbos (officially approved by Conservative), eating non-kosher out of the home (officially approved by Conservative), etc. Conservative is a completely different religion from Judaism (what they call Orthodox) just as Reform is.

The Conservative and Reform each accept each other’s fake pseudo-“conversions”, whereas the Orthodox rejects the “conversions” of both the Conservative and Reform — and deems them all as remaining Gentile.

And Mr. Saul Lieberman from the JTS was the biggest apostate of them all.

Ilex: Explain the fact that the OU and the JTS share the same founding fathers.

DaMoshe, in the United States the Conservative movement was an offshoot of the MO movement. As earlier mentioned, many of the same rabbis that founded the Orthodox Union (OU) also founded the Conservative Jewish Theological Seminary.

So-called Chareidim never existed as a term until the MO made their seperatist movement within Orthodoxy. After the MO came into existence, the traditional Orthodox who never left or changed got their moniker of Chareidim, a term coined by outsiders. Chareidim are simply what was originally called Orthodox, just like the Orthodox are simply what was called Judaism before the breakaway Reform movement came about. The name Orthodox was also imposed on us by the non-Orthodox.

DaMoshe, it is a halacha that a Rov’s son gets priority over everyone else in taking over his deceased father’s rabbinical position. I’ve cited the Halachic sources on this forum in the past. It has nothing to do with Chasidim.

N0m: if you were around 100 years ago, when the Conservative movement was starting to, slowly but surely, break off from the MO movement, would you have been saying then about the Conservative movement what you are saying now how we should deal with the OO movement?

N0m:

1. What basis do you have to claim that the RCA “was not happy to keep him” (despite actually keeping him)?

2. Which other members “they wished they didn’t have to deal with” and why? Why didn’t they expel those members?

3. “Agudah was no more than press release.” Agudah couldn’t expel Mr. Weiss from the RCA. What more do you think the Gedolei Yisroel on the Moetzes could have done than register a מְחָאָה?

4. “The Yated and Cross Currents did nothing constructive either.” What do you think they should have done?

ubiq: Let me inform you otherwise. You likely exaggerate the mishkov zochor frequency and you might underestimate the eishes ish instances. (Speak to Rabbonim in the parsha and they can sadly inform you what’s going on.) Most otherwise frum men with SSA do not engage in mishkov zochor. And, likewise, most otherwise frum men with a taaiva for eishes ish do not engage in that.

According to current secular scientific surveys, 2% of men are exclusively homosexual. (I’d very strongly argue for several very good reasons that stat is a gross exaggeration, but for purposes of our discussion we’ll go with this figure.) Assuming 2% of frum men have exclusive SSA, we can also count on that most of those frum men refrain from mishkav zochor, given the terrible sin it is. Same with eishes ish. But eishes ish is a taaiva of the other 98% of men. So it is approximately 50 men with eishes ish taaivos to every 1 man with exclusive homosexual taaivos. (Again, approximately. Don’t get hung up whether it’s 50 to 1 or if it is 47 to 1 or whatever.) Even if you assume more men with exclusive SSA sin than other men, given such a huge disparity in comparative starting populations, the larger percentage of SSA sinners will still be a vastly smaller number of actual persons than the smaller percentage of non-SSA (exclusive) sinners.

P.S. Chazal say that a special taaiva for eishes ish (rather than for other single women) is definitely a thing that exists, and is not a negligible taaiva. But this Chazal isn’t even necessary to consider to accept my preceding points. It’s just another cherry on the top.

fakenews: Perhaps to you “doing drugs” might mean taking tylenol for a headache. To many others it probably connotes narcotics abuse.

Dear N0m:

The RCA was very happy to keep Mr. Weiss as a rabbinical member of their fraternity for as long as he liked. Indeed, Weiss remained a RCA member long long after he publicly became an apostate. In fact, the *only* reason Avi isn’t currently an RCA member is because he chose to not pay the RCA annual membership renewal. Until a short time ago he was still a RCA rabbi and the RCA continued to keep him on their rabbinical rosters indefinitely, or as long as Weiss wanted to remain a RCA member. The RCA itself not only never expelled him, they never even objected to his constant and repeated trampling of the Torah HaKedosha.

In fact, some of the OO leadership are *still* rabbinical members of the RCA today. Mr. Weiss’ synagogue in the Bronx is *still* an official OU Shul, despite Weiss bringing Christian pastors into his synagogue and himself conducting inter-denominational services (both with Christian and with Reform.) And Yeshiva University, where Avi was previously employed on their rabbinical staff, too, has not yet renounced Mr. Weiss.

SKD2128: Welcome to the Zionist Entity. Everything you’ve described, plus much worse, has been ongoing in the non-Jewish State since 1948.

ubiq: Do you, similarly, believe it would be a good idea for “Yeshiva” University to establish, in addition to its current mishkav zochor club, an eishes ish club? The latter, as you surely know, has many more men with that taaiva, than the former.

ubiq: Even if it doesn’t lead to more people practicing toeiva, condoning, supporting, normalizing and legitimizing those who already practice toeiva is disgusting and kneged haTorah.

DaMoshe: In the example you just gave, if the person never says anything, never discusses the issue and doesn’t utter a word to people about it, it is very highly unlikely anyone else will say anything to him.

N0m: That’s the point. JTS started as Modern Orthodox. With time they became Barely Orthodox. And eventually they are what they’re now, Not Orthodox.

Same as the sub-MO group Open Orthodox did a century later. The OO started within the YU/RCA/OU world, where some are still affiliated.

Frumguy: Any vehicle for tzedaka is most praiseworthy.

No one is bothered by people who have SSA but never act upon that attraction, never advertise that attraction, never publicly discuss that attraction. The idea that anyone holds anything against anyone else who has SSA is a fig leaf, red herring and strawman.

The issue, and only issue, is those who any upon said attraction. Or parade it. Or try to normalize it.

Neville: Population statistics wise there are more Chasidim than all non-Chasidish frum combined. This is even true individually in the United States, in Israel and in Europe. Twenty five years ago this wasn’t the case. But mainly as a result of the comparatively much larger Chasidish birth rate, at this time the stats are what they are.

Even Lakewood is becoming more and more Chasidish. (Certainlly not a majority in Lakewood — yet.) And I don’t mean BMG bochorim who “shtam” from Hungarian type families. I’m referring to actual Shtreimal wearing Yidden.

Christie is a social liberal. And Christie has zero chance.

“what is the difference between a ketuba and a prenup?”

The first came from Chazal. The latter came from idiots.

Simcha: Cholov Yisroel is NOT a Chumra. Cholov Stam is a Kula. (Even the poskim that permit use of this Kula acknowledge that it is a Kula.) And not all poskim hold it is a valid Kula. In which case, to them, Cholov Stam is Cholov Akum and thus unkosher. If they hold it isn’t a valid Kula, they are prohibited from even facilitating or helping another Jew obtain Cholov Stam, even if the other fellow does use the Kula.

Your comparison to Beis Hillel/Beis Shammai is mistaken. A more apt comparison would be the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.

Beis Shammai certainly would not loan Beis Hillel keilim that Beis Shammai held is tamei since a) they wouldn’t keep such keilim and b) even if they had it, they hold it is tamei so they are prohibited to facilitate another Jew using it.

DaMoshe: Yeshivish people do not demand the MO stop having mixed seating. But do not expect Yeshivish or Chasidish friends or family to attend your weddings if it is mixed seating. They do not have to, should not and will not, compromise their “chumra” to make you happy.

And don’t expect them to eat from your house, with your cholov stam and hechsheirim they do not rely on. Or come into your neighborhood where the women are running around in short skirts and shirts. Or attend your shiurim where your rabbis preach wrongheaded hashkofos.

And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise. It isn’t a chumra. It is halacha, even if you disagree.

Yes. The Living Torah Museum in Boro Park.

N0m: Only a tiny percentage of the Yeshivish/Chasidish population switched to MO. Whereas there is a huge percentage of MO who now identify with the Yeshivish community. As I mentioned, in virtually every Yeshivish Shul, Yeshiva and minyanim you’ll find very many former MO people. You do not find a significant population of former Yeshivish/Chasidish in MO schools or shuls. (And if you want to consider the OTD rate, the MO OTD rate is more than 10 times higher proportionally than the Yeshivish/Chasidish OTD rate.)

As far as your point that many MO people openly violate Halacha but, you claim, that by Yeshivish/Chasidish some publicly adhere to the Mitzvos, but when in private don’t, there’s two pertienent points:

1. You have no basis to claim that there’s any statistically significant percentage who publicly are frum but when no one is looking aren’t.

2. It is far far better a person be publicly Mitzvah adherent, even if in private he isn’t, than for a person to simply disregard Mitzvos even in public and openly and shamelessly violate the Torah.