ujm

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GHadora, you’re conflating part of my comments with parts of comments from another poster, in making a cojoined response to a point that wasn’t made. (I said nothing about 50% or about unreasonable demands.)

That being said, the majority of frum divorces, in fact, do NOT end up in contentious/bitter secular court proceedings. I certainly stand by my assertion that the large majority of frum Yidden are Yirei Shamayim.

The only people movies are okay for, are people who eat pork.

TLIK: As I mentioned earlier I agree with your general view and approach on this issue. One nekuda, if I may beg to respectfully differ, is that I think you’re giving to much deference to secular courts/law. M’ikur hadin, the secular courts and the secular law should have absolutely zero bearing on this (or any) proceeding, case or dispute between two Jews, on matters of divorce, assets ownership, custody, visitation, child support or any other issues between Yidden, whether husband and wife or between strangers.

I understand your concern regarding the non-Jewish courts demanding to enforce various secular law as they may pertain to custody, child support or possibly other issues. But since, I believe, we are discussing Yirei Shamayim, who want to strictly and completely follow Halacha — even if and when they may be engaged in a dispute with another Yid (i.e. a spouse), therefore we should be operating under the assumption that both parties will do what is right Al Pi Torah and Din. Which means they’ll both naturally insist to completely adjudicate their dispute in Beis Din, exclusively using Halacha to determine the resolution of all issues.

If a married couple decide to split and amicably reach an agreement between themselves on all issues, including assets separation, custody, visitation and child support, as well as any other issues, and simply go through the legal process to technically formalize obtaining a writ of divorce so that they’re legally not married any longer, I don’t believe any judge will override their amicably and jointly presented agreement to the court. Even if there is some law on that books giving the judge that technical right. In fact, regarding a couple that have children but were never legally married to each other, as a large percent of gentile couples these days live, they can reach whatever amicable agreement they want regarding the money and children without even involving any court or filling any court case. In the vast majority of states any court will be elated and more than happy to accept a mutually agreed arrangement as is. It’ll save the overworked, overbooked, backlogged court docket from having to spend countless of tens or hundreds of hours of court time litigating issues that the parties mutually reached an agreement.

On that token, if two Yidden fully adjudicate all their outstanding disagreements in Beis Din (or mutually, privately, outside of Beis Din) and come to court with the Beis Din ruling and present it as their joint mutually agreed arrangements on all issues, including monetary separation, custody, visitation and support, it is extremely highly unlikely that any court will demand a court case be held to relitigate what was agreed to.

In fact, in many states if they reached an agreement and have no no dispute, they don’t even need to file any court case or involve the court whatsoever. They can simply carry out what they agreed to and have no dispute over. Obviously these are state laws and each of the fifty states (or foreign countries) will have their own legal nuances.

And that is the way to live Al Pi Torah and Halacha without utilizing any arkaos, c”v. So for any and all Yirei Shamayim, the above is how they would and should approach this.

So then we are left with the cases of where we are dealing with one of the parties to the dispute is not a Yirei Shamayim. And their lack of Yiras Shamayim is evidenced by the fact that they refuse to accept full and complete adjudication of all outstanding issues via Beis Din, utilizing halacha exclusively to determine the outcome. For example, if one disputant refuses to let the secular court know that all issues have been resolved (if a secular court is somehow necessary in the process, let alone if he/she kneged halacha initiates a secular court case). So what do we do about such a situation? The Beis Din should then put a Siruv on that party. And deny that party any halachic rights he/she would otherwise have been entitled to (i.e. a Get), until they reverse their kneged halacha actions and reverse/repay any gains they illicitly (kneged halacha) obtained from the secular system.

But since the large majority of frum Yidden have a chazaka of being Yirei Shamayim, the last type of unfortunate situation should be a distinct minority of divorces. But nevertheless an option in the toolbox of Butei Dinim, should it be necessary.

But to reiterate, I generally agree with the points you’ve made on these issues.

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GHadora: The Israeli rabbanut has posted statistics stating that about 50% (slightly more if I recall) of Get refusers are women.

GHadora: The Israeli rabbanut has posted statistics saying that about 50% (slightly more if I recall) of those refusing a Get are women.

Philosopher: Halevay all Yiddishe maidelech today dressed like your great-grandmother. That would be a vast improvement.

Abba: Al Pi Halacha an ex-wife is not entitled to alimony. If she forces him to pay monthly alimony via a non-Jewish court ruling kneged halacha then she’s a thief. A wife who stole from her husband is not supposed to be given a Get (even if she would otherwise be entitled to it) until she pays him back. See Rav Moshe Shternbuch, Rav Elyashiv’s and others teshuva on this subject.

As far as her wages and earnings, they belong to the husband until she makes a formal declaration to him that she discharges him from being obligated to support her. Any earnings of hers after that declaration belong to her. And he’s no longer obligated to support her.

Child support is the husband’s obligation Al Pi Halacha up to a certain age. (It is less than 18.) But he’s not halachicly obligated to give the child support money to his ex-wife. He can choose to spend it on his children directly.

Using any non-Jewish court for rulings on child support, alimony, assets separation (halachicly virtually all martial assets belong to the husband unless the wife owned it prior to their marriage) or any other disputed matter is strictly against Halacha. ALL disputes MUST be adjudicated in Bais Din only. If any party utilizes arkaos (secular court) then they lose any rights they otherwise would have against the other party.

Philosopher: Avira pointed out what you’re saying in his most recent comment prior to yours (in the section he addressed to GH). That being said, if the wife declared that, it becomes effective from the time she made that declaration to her husband, but it doesn’t retroactively affect any wages she earned before the formal declaration.

Mr. Joseph Rosenberger brought shatnes awareness to American Jewry. Prior to his heroic efforts, American Jewry was largely ignorant of the prohibition.

When you hear all the nostalgia expressed by some for the time when American Jews didn’t have mechitzas at chasunas (and other various issues where Yiddishkeit was practiced with defects), remember the prewar American Orthodox Hamon Hoam were largely ignorant even as late as the 1950s and 1960s of large elements of proper Judaism. It was only after the postwar European Jewish influx into America when things started really to change. (There was some European rabbonim who arrived in the interwar period that also started getting things fixed in America.)

Tizku L’Mitzvos.

A husband doesn’t have to give a divorce (Get) if he doesn’t want to if he wants to remain married to his wife. Even if she wants a divorce. That’s the rule and law in the Torah and as codified as Halacha in Shulchan Aruch.

There are a very small number of exceptions where she’s entitled to a Get upon request, when the situation meets one of the few exceptions specifically listed by Chazal stating so. But as Avira pointed out even in those exceptional cases he’s not obligated to give a Get unless and until a bona fide Beis Din that both parties agreed to its jurisdiction over their case rules he’s obligated, after conducting a full Beis Din trial and reaching a Psak Halacha whether an obligation exists or not.

“@ujm, and who said thats a bad thing?”

Hashem in His Torah.

5T: To be honest, I only know of 42 because it used to be an insider’s joke when this coffee room first started.

Just ask Moderator-42.

Avira, de Blasio also was not a known radical leftist before he became mayor. He proved himself that only once in City Hall. In fact, he previously represented the frum Boro Park coming in the City Council.

Sliwa, while once made an unfortunate reference to our community (Eisav Soneh L’Yaakov is pretty universal), overall he has a decades-long history of friendly and helpful interactions with the frum community.

All this said, Adams is a shoe-in to winning the election in this one-party city.

benignuman: How do you like Montreal?

Reb Eliezer, many chasanim are mature and do get married before age 21.

GHadora: You seem, uh, a bit too familiar about where exactly all the prutzas head down the runway to show off their guf.

Avira, ich farshtay. I wanted to raise a more relevant and consequential discussion on a tangential issue.

A large segment of women are following the shmutzdik styles spit out from Paris. They’ll modify it a bit to make it appear less goyishdik, for example by adding something to barely cover what is supposed to never be uncovered, but the general idea is coming from Paris.

Do you remember when people traveled to Eretz Yisroel by ship?

When the coffee room first started there used to be a handful of highly active high school teenage girls posting here.

Juno was liked since it was originally a pure email only service that you could dial in directly to Juno’s servers with your modem, and there was no other internet access.