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ICOT,
There is an important distinction that I make in my arguments that you should be aware of.
I would *never* put forth a “Devil’s Advocate” argument that the Torah is false. What I do do, however, is knock down flawed arguments that purport to show that the Torah is true. Showing that a proof is false says nothing about the underlying premise — only the actual “proof.”
The Wolf
For me, anyway, it doesn’t matter. I don’t follow the Torah because it’s “proven” to be true. I follow the Torah because I believe it to be true, without proof. Is that somewhat irrational on my part? Perhaps — but that’s the way it is.
If you disagree with what I say, you can call me out by name — I don’t mind as long as the complaint is legitimate and reasonable.
The Wolf
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can’t someone learn AND be college educated?
For the first two and a half years after high school, I learned by day and went to college at night. If someone were so inclined, they could continue that until they earn their Bachelor’s degree.
The Wolf
Of course not.
Even after close to twenty years of marriage, Eeees and I don’t agree on all points hashkafically.
Of course, people may have certain hashkafic lines that they don’t want their future spouses to cross, but there has to be *some* room for variation… or else your search for a spouse is going to take a lot longer than you originally planned.
The Wolf
Correct. When you are catering to non Jewish people that is ok I guess but when selling to “frum” heimish/yeshivish Brooklynites you have a problem.
No, you misunderstood what I meant.
The very same clothing that is inappropriate in one context for a bas yisroel to wear can be perfectly appropriate for the same bas yisroel to wear in a different context.
The Wolf
And, as per my LOR, it does not have to be a white shirt.
Which begs the question — what type of uniform is so… un-uniformish?
The Wolf
It depends. There are times that your wife and kids do something wrong due to lack of knowledge/education.
Education is not enforcement.
What bothers me is why are “frum” clothing stores selling this shmutz to our women.
Context, my friend, context. Clothing that can be categorized as “shmutz” in one context is perfectly legitimate in another.
The Wolf
While Eeees and I were dating, we went boating in a lake in Prospect Park.
The Wolf
I will not apologize
Yanky,
I didn’t ask you to apologize. I said we simply have to agree to disagree. You go your way and I’ll go mine.
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The Wolf
If it bothers you, just don’t listen.
The Wolf
You’re sugarcoating that gehenim doesn’t apply. With that attitude, not only is it inferior and untrue, it is no true kiruv.
No, I’ve just found that building people up works far better at influincing their behavior than knocking them down.
If you feel that yelling at them that they’re going to hell is the ideal tool for returning people to avodas Hashem, then we just have to agree to disagree. As you said, you have bechira to choose your way. I choose mine. I choose to encourage rather than discourage. I choose to include rather than exclude. I choose to bring people in through love rather than fear and hate.
If you choose differently, then so be it. We just have to part ways at that point – there is really nothing further for us to discuss on the subject.
The Wolf
What dismissal of Emes? I don’t validate what other people do — I just don’t yell at them that they’re going to hell for their actions.
But what the heck — so you take your way and I’ll take mine. I believe mine is far superior.
The Wolf
See the Gemorah. At some point adultery became so common that they stopped using the Mai Marah to test women. I’m fairly certain that there were times when murder was fairly common as well (I’ll have to actually look up the source to be sure). Likewise, Avoda Zara was a continual problem in Biblical times.
The Wolf
EDITED
I highly doubt that with your attitude you are successful in kiruv.
As for me, I will do kiruv my way. I have always believed that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And I have always believed that you accomplish far more with love than you do with hate.
The Wolf
Murder was hardly the only crime for which the death penalty applied.
The Wolf
Very well. Do me a favor, Yanky. Stay out of kiruv. You obviously understand little of human psychology, self-defense mechanisms and incentives and rewards.
The Wolf
Because there are enough technicalities out there perhaps. Age (over 13) isn’t one of them.
Are you saying that EVERY case that came before a Beis Din had a technical fault? I hardly think that to be the case. If so, then NO Bais Din could ever convict.
The Wolf
So, you think the key to bringing people back to the derech is to tell them that they’re going to hell?
The Wolf
I strongly beg to differ. And you have offered no evidence other than conjecture. The extents the Beis Din went to avoid implementing a death sentence, were technical ones. They did so for a 13 year old and for a 43 year old. Being 13 is no more an excuse for avoiding the death penalty, al pi din, than being 43 years old.
I beg to differ. If the only reasons to avoid a conviction were technical ones, how could any Tanna definitively state that they would NEVER apply the death penalty?
The Wolf
Yes, and costs for any given product, in any given region, are usually pretty similar.
The Wolf
Yanky R.
And with your approach, you’re ensuring that there is little possibility that they return to the derech.
The Wolf
Wolf: Other than your own conjecture, which I believe is wrong, there is no reason to believe a 13 year old is treated differently than a 43 year old who committed the same crime/circumstances.
Considering the extent to which courts went to avoid executions and to look for reasons not to execute at all whenever possible, I believe my conjecture is based on solid reasoning.
The Wolf
who said it’s a battle?
It’s not. It’s an expression.
But if you have to enforce halacha observance in your household, then your household is in serious trouble.
The Wolf
Wolfish: Its more than theory; its practice. Even a Ben Sorer — who is UNDER 13, is said (according to one) to have happened. THAT was rare. A 13 year old receiving the maximum penalty of Beis Din, there is no basis to say it was any rarer than a 50 year old. If a 13 or 50 year old was Mechallel Shabbos (with the requisite attachments — i.e. warning, witnesses, etc.) both of them were just as culpable to the death penalty — and Beis Din would NOT provide any consideration to the 13 year olds age more than the 50 year olds age.
I encourage you to learn the seventh perek of Gemara Sanhedrin — Arba Misos. You will see that very often almost any possible loophole was taken to avoid giving a death penalty — to the extent that a Beis Din that executed a person every seventy years was known as a bloodthirsty court. Some Tana’im publicly took the position that if they sat on a court, there would NEVER be a death penalty.
All that being said, I have to believe that, if at all possible, a court would have bent over backwards to excuse a 13 year old due to immaturity.
So, in practice, the death penalty was rarely carried out, even when technically deserved.
The Wolf
Consider the possibility (if not likelihood) that her parents were correct.
The possibility of what? That failing to live to the exact dictates of your parents makes you a rasha?
Sorry. Doesn’t cut it in my book.
The Wolf
I’m sorry Wolf, I really did not intend for the post to come out sounding like you did c”v not believe in the Torah to be a divine source. In fact you have written in your previous posts that you believe the Torah to be divine.
Philosopher,
I wasn’t accusing you. On the contrary, I made the point that I didn’t think you meant it that way. I’m just afraid there are others on the boards who will misconstrue it that way.
No need to apologize. 🙂
The Wolf
The halachic price controls are the percentage markup that is allowable.
Right. Which, as I described above, is a function of the already varying market rate. There is no fixed price control for any market good/service in the Torah. The only fixed prices are for certain religious functions (pidyon haben, chatzi shekel, etc.)
The Wolf
Camps should be viewed as a LUXURY for people that can afford them.
They should not be a requirement for kids.
Parents should not feel obligated to go into debt for this. As it is parents aren’t making it.
Indeed, that’s the painful choice we had to make last year. Last year none of our kids went to camp — it just wasn’t economically possible. This year, sadly, is the same.
The Wolf
Yet a 13 year old IS subject to the most serious punishment available to man — the death penalty.
In theory, yes. In practice, not very likely.
The Wolf
The Torah has price controls.
Please illustrate where the Torah has firm price controls.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head that might be considered a price control is the issur of “ona’ah.” However, that depends on the already existing market price of an item which can fluctuate depending on supply and demand. There is no firm price control there.
Yes, there are firm prices for certain religious services (a pidyon Haben is always 5 shkalim) — but for general market goods and services, I don’t see where there are any firm price controls.
The Wolf
How did a thread about vacations turn into a thread on halacha?
Because some people think halacha takes a vacation when they do.
No, that’s not true. The reason this thread became about halacha was because one poster decided that something I did on vacation was against halacha when it clearly is not.
The Wolf
WellInformedYid: As the authority in the house, the husband is obligated to enforce halacha amongst his wife and children.
If you have to enforce halacha in your wife and children, you’ve already lost the battle.
The Wolf
and i would have to think very hard about marrying someone who did have a logo on his white shirt.
Thus fulfilling the dictum of Chazal “al tistakel b’mah sheyesh bo ela b’kankan.”
The Wolf
I’m sorry, but I’m not certain how this answers the question I asked.
I asked how anti-Semitism proves the truth of the Torah. The verses that you bring mention that we will be afraid, but it does not mention that others will hate us. In fact, you could very easily make the argument that we will be afraid despite there being no cause (such as Jew-hatred).
It should also be pointed out that ethnic hatred is not exclusively against Jews. Ethnic/religious hatred is practically as old as the world itself.
Please formalize this a bit better so that it’s clearer how your proof is laid out.
Lastly, I want to make one thing clear. I know you didn’t intend it this way, but the combination of your title and your response can make it seem like you’re responding to an argument of mine that the Torah is not true. That is not the case. I found your proofs to be flawed, but finding your proof to be flawed is not the same as finding your premise to be flawed. I, personally, believe the Torah is Divine — but I have yet to find a logical proof to that that stands up to serious scrutiny.
For me, anyway, it doesn’t matter. I don’t follow the Torah because it’s “proven” to be true. I follow the Torah because I believe it to be true, without proof. Is that somewhat irrational on my part? Perhaps — but that’s the way it is.
The Wolf
SJSinNYC:
Max well, you think a Bar Mitzvah kid is an adult? So, you would have no problem with your 13 year old son getting married?
Max well:
sjsinnyc, Absolutely. I don’t consider him an adult – the TORAH does.
Says the one who obviously doesn’t have a thirteen year old son. 🙂
In any event, even the Torah agrees that at 13 one is not *fully* responsible for one’s actions. Consider the fact that a person is not liable for certain Divine punishments until 20.
Clearly what this says to me is that there is a maturation process. At thirteen we expect a youth to be able to handle certain responsibilities. As he progresses and matures towards twenty, he becomes more and more responsible for his actions, thoughts and ideas.
The Wolf
You mean we can’t start discussing the intricacies of Coca-Cola bottling? 🙂
The Wolf
if my girls want to wear a longer skirt with short socks that cover the ankle in the summer and most other girls are doing that also, it would be foolish to disallow it and be makpid.
Indeed, as the parent of three teens, this is my life right now — finding the right balance between letting them be themselves (and be teens) and when to hold fast on the boundaries. It isn’t always easy to find that balance.
The Wolf
FWIW, I think proofs are a fool’s errand*. I follow the Torah because I want to and I believe that God gave us the mitzvos — not because of some formal proof.
The Wolf
* No, I’m not calling anyone here a fool.
What is this: “willing to bet”?
“Willing to bet” means that, if I had to gamble on it with money, I would. It means that I’m pretty confident that I’m correct, even if not absolutely 100%.
I’ll give an example.
A few years ago, Eeees and I took a vacation to St. Thomas. While we were there, we stopped off at the supermarket to pick up some staple foods. Imagine my surprise when we found the Coca-Cola and it did NOT have a hechsher.
In reality, I’m almost 100% certain that it was, in fact, kosher — after all, Coca-Cola’s formula is the same world wide. The lack of a hechsher was probably only because that particular bottling plant wasn’t under the OU.
I didn’t end up buying the Coke because I didn’t *need* it (there were other things to drink) and why take the small chance? However, if I had to gamble money on whether or not it was kosher, I would’ve said “Kosher” in a heartbeat.
“Willing to bet” means that I’m reasonably sure of something — enough that if forced to put money down, I’d go with that option without too much of a second thought.
The Wolf
Wolfishmusings, I look forward to and enjoy your postings very much.
:: blushing once again ::
Thank you very much for the compliment.
The Wolf
Are you even aware if these peoples were even familiar with the Jewish People or not? Can you cite anywhere a statement that they denied Har Sinai? or anything to indicate they ever heard of Har Sinai?
Fair enough. That’s exactly what my argument was predicated on. Apparently, once again, we probably agree more than we disagree. We’re just arguing over the definition of “no one.”
The Wolf
Rabbi Miller was very familiar with eastern religions and spoke about their beliefs and practices many times.
And was he an expert in paganism? North American Indian Religions? Zoroasterism? Shinto? Incan Religion? Mayan religion? Ancient Greeks?
Because (again that term) I’m willing to bet that at least *one* group of people from these religions over the years would have denied the events of Har Sinai.
All I’m suggesting is that Rav Miller went too far when he said “no one.”
the ad hominem comment was directed at my comment about your your use of “willing to bet”
Questioning my choice of words is not an ad hominem attack. Calling me an idiot for using them (you didn’t — it’s just an example) is.
The Wolf
Again you are arguing with Rabbi Miller,tzl, who is the source, as you know for much of what I say. As you know in addition to being a true Godol, he was a recognized expert in Jewish History and published a few books on the subject.
Yes, R. Miller is a Gadol. And yes, R. Miller is an expert on Jewish history. But when he states that no one, no religion, no institution has ever denied the events of Har Sinai, he’s clearly not talking in Jewish history — he’s now entering the realm of comparative theology — an area in which he is probably NOT an expert in.
I hope that wasn’t an ad homineum (or whatever it is) attack.
I use “willing to bet” when I’m reasonably certain of something but not 100%.
But in any event, how you can possibly view my using of “willing to bet” as an ad hominem attack?
The Wolf
EDITED
The conversation is not about:”Is Torah Divine?”
The conversation is: “Can it be logically proven that the Torah is Divine”
I think the one is intertwined with the other. I don’t think you can separate the two.
The Wolf
And let me assert before anyone starts calling me an apikorus or anything like that…
I firmly believe in Torah MiSinai. I just find all the “proofs” to be flawed.
The Wolf
No group, no people, no institution, no religion, has ever (until the last few hundred years)denied Har Sinai.
Baloney. I’m willing to bet that Hindus, Bhuddists, pagans, et al, throughout the years denied Har Sinai.
Unless, of course, you’re restricting “religion” to Abrahamic religions, in which case your argument becomes “No True Scotsman…”
The Wolf
Which religions are of approximate age as Judaism? Christianity became a religion approximately one thousand years after that and Islam even later.
How Eurocentric of you. You missed Hinduism, practiced by about a billion inhabitants. It’s been around for thousands of years. I don’t want to get into an advanced discussion on the Hindu religion (I don’t think this is the place for it) but they too have daily rituals and a highly complex religious system.
Can I ask you why, over one thousand years later than the Torah was given, couldn’t people come up with something, different new and exciting to appeal to the masses?
The only way we can be voluntarily controlled like that with hundreds of laws is because the Torah is divine.
That’s not proof. Hindus, as I mentioned, have a complex religious system. The Puritans lived pretty restricted lives. There are probably other examples that I can’t think of off the top of my head.
The bottom line is that all it proves is that people *believed them to be* incumbent or divine and had a good system for transmitting those values to their progeny. It does not actually prove that those laws and values actually are divine.
Also, the Jews are dispersed throughout the world today for hundreds of years already. Throughout all these years that Jews lived in different in different countries, their cultures and minhugim are different wouldn’t you think the versions of halacha would change? The way it is applied may be different for each mokom as well as each generation, but the core halachas are unchanging with time and place and religious Jews practice the same version of the Torah since har Sinai.
Even the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, the Jews who do not even beleive the Torah is from a divine source always quote the Torah when they want to as their sources, lets say for ethical treatment of animals and such. It’s true they only refer to it when they want to, but one would think with their view of Judaism they would not quote the Torah to support their opinions.
It’s funny that you mention R, C and Recon, because they actually disprove your point. The fact that these groups define Jewish law in such a radically different way disproves the point you’re trying to make. Unless, of course, you’re defining “Jews” as those who keep halacha (however you choose to define it), at which point your argument becomes circular (because your defining those who keep Jewish law according to your definition of the same.)
The Wolf
Fist of all, there is no question that we need emunah. Emunah is a tool we use in aquiring the truth. Without emunah we can discount the most logical of proofs. Emunah is a spiritual concept and obviously if we can only go by physical proofs, then logical proofs which are not in the physical realm will be discounted as well.
My reading of this: I have proofs, but if they don’t stand up, we have Emunah so we don’t need proofs anyway.
That being the case, why bring proofs to begin with.
Put it this way, if you said you believe in Judaism because you have Emunah, I would have no argument with you. Even if I completely disagreed with the notion of religion through Emunah (which I don’t), I still couldn’t argue because it’s not an arguable position. But once you begin to bring proofs then they have to stand up to intellectual scrutiny.
The Wolf
Thanks, Zach. I knew that Russia adopted the Gregorian calendar later than the rest of Europe (heck, I have friends who celebrate Christmas in January because they belong to the Russian Orthodox church), but I wasn’t sure if it was before or after the Revolution.
The Wolf
Mod,
Fair enough. I think we probably agree more than we disagree and are just dancing around differing definitions.
The Wolf