Out Of The Mailbag – To YW Editor (Shidduchim. A Different Type Of Plea)

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yw new logo5.jpgDear Yeshiva World Readers:

Allow me to introduce myself. I am a 23 year old black-hat orthodox Jew. I am part of a reputable, loving, wealthy family in New York. I attended one of the most well-regarded Yeshivas in America for a number of years, where I learned at a very high level. I recently started a graduate degree program at a very prestigious institution, and I have daily Chavrusas and keep up with my Rebbeim regularly, with whom I have a very close kesher.

You might think I would be the last person to write and complain about the Shidduch situation we have here in the United States. Wouldn’t it seem likely that I would have tons of dates, and be in a perfect situation to be enjoy the seeming disparity between girls and boys out there? Why should I complain?

The truth is, I have lots of dates. In fact, I unfortunately have to say no to most girls simply because I don’t have the ability to date them all. Almost all the girls that are suggested to me, and certainly the ones I date, are outstanding young women from great families. They are intelligent, beautiful, thoughtful, and special – women who would make a great wife.

So I’m not writing this plea to complain about that aspect of the shidduch system. Rather, I’m writing this letter because I have personally seen how the shidduch process we are struggling through de-humanizes us and makes us do things which are beneath our normally ethical selves as frum jews. I have seen how even upstanding people are taking desperate measures- lying, conniving, and generally abusing the trust of others because the shidduch system rewards them for it. I don’t have any advice for how to make it better, since that is beyond my realm, but I want to register this sincere plea for everyone to act as civilly as possible when engaging in shidduchim. We are dealing with people’s innermost emotions, their hopes and dreams, and too many get terribly hurt by incidents in the process.

The question I have to ask is: What has happened to us? Why must we subscribe to the repulsive maxim of “All’s fair in love and war?” Where has our integrity gone? This letter was prompted by something that recently happened to me, although it isn’t my only shidduch tale, and I have heard other stories from friends that show varying degrees of unethical tactics. Here’s mine:

I was recently suggested a young lady who seemed absolutely fantastic. I knew the family personally, and I knew them to be kind, down to earth, and of the highest caliber. They knew me as well, and I was very excited by this prospect. However, there was something a bit strange. This girl wasn’t even in the States. She was in Seminary in Israel, and besides for this Shadchan, nobody even knew she was planning on dating in the near future. I was told by the shadchan that she would be returning from seminary for a family Simcha, and she would be available to date then. It was presented to me in a way to make me believe that although she wasn’t officially dating yet, her family really wanted her to date me, perhaps because they were afraid I would be off the market by the time she came back.

So I thought about this long and hard. On the one hand, I didn’t want to say no, because the girl and family seemed so fantastic and right for me. On the other hand, I know how amazing the Israel experience can be, and I didn’t want her growth to be cut short because of her parent’s insistence on dating me. I told the shadchan ‘yes’, but that I wouldn’t date her until Pesach.

After making this commitment, my family and I had serious concerns about whether it was ethical for me to date anyone at all until she returned in a few months. Some might say that to stop dating would be unreasonable, but I said yes- that I would date her- and I value my word and my commitment. In the end, with the guidance of several of my Rebbeim, it was decided that I would date extremely sparingly (I was very busy as it was with school), and that I could not get engaged without giving this girl a date first.

About two weeks after this family Simcha, still in the States, this girl got engaged. I found out what was going on the whole time. She apparently was involved with her fiancé for a while, even before she went to Israel. She wanted to move forward in her relationship, but her parents either a) wanted to give her at least one other boy to date so she could have more clarity in her decision; or b) didn’t like the guy as much as me and wanted me to come in a derail their relationship. I, of course, had no idea about all of this. Because I didn’t think she was dating at all and didn’t want to take away her year in Israel, I had said no, so the parent’s plan B was over- and she got engaged to this guy.

Aside for being hurt because I was looking forward to dating her, I felt completely used and foolish for being trustful. I was essentially a pawn in a scheme. The parents and the shadchan didn’t indicate whatsoever the root of this whole situation, and it was left to me to pick myself off of the floor and figure out what happened. While I had been so concerned about being honest and ethical that I was going to suspend my dating entirely for her, all they wanted of me was to think I would be going into a normal dating situation so I could act as a yardstick. I got taken advantage of.

You can read into this story what you may, but it is an example and indication that we have lost our bearings and moral compass when the time comes to be married off. I thought this family was ethical, and they probably are, but our crazy system encourages these types of behavior. This is not isolated or unique. I can’t even tell you how many times guys in Yeshiva would boast of dating two girls at the same time, among other awful dating activities.

So I beg of you; before you are about to do something that is questionable in the area of shidduchim, ask yourself if you think you are contributing to the crisis or improving the system for the benefit of everyone. Look to the essential character of the Torah and the Jewish people and gain the strength to do the right thing. Please don’t abuse the trust of others, even if it gets you ahead. We can do so much better than this.

In the meantime, I will still be the guy who doesn’t listen to suggestions of other girls while he’s going out with someone, who doesn’t talk to his friends about the girls he’s dated in the past, and who puts conscious effort to be considerate to every girl and to have integrity.

Nice guys might finish last, but I won’t let the free for all that we have created for ourselves subsume the most important part of me- my Jewish character. I know that we can all create a better shidduch world if we don’t lose focus on why we are getting married in the first place; to build a bayis ne’eman b’yisroel.

Thank you for your time.

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The views expressed in this column reflect the opinions of the individual writers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Yeshiva World News LLC. These individual opinions are also in no way meant as a P’sak Halacha or Hashkafa. As with all matters, be sure to consult with a Rov with all questions.




102 COMMENTS

  1. firstly, I feel very badly that you’ve been used. however be glad you were saved from marrying into such a terrrible family. as you can clearly see here. many people who are thought of to be fine and upstanding when the venner is off are revealed to be nefarious.
    I hope you find your true zivug soon.
    btw I don’t think its a fair generalization to write about the guys in YOUR yeshiva that double dated as if its chalila widespread anywhere else.

  2. I think what we have here is the pot calling the kettle black. The writer is against anyone who dates two girls at the same time. He is against dating for the purpose of using one person as a yardstick against another. Yet, he acknowledges that he was prepared to do exactly that! He will date only ‘extremely sparingly’ and will, chas veshalom, ‘not get engaged without giving this girl a date first.’ How’s he gonna do that without doing exactly what he decries in such strong terms? He’s upset that he ‘got taken advantage of.’ But methinks thou doth protest too much. He’s just upset that the girl pulled on him what he was preparing to do to another unsuspecting girl, that he would have to double time on her at Pesach time.

  3. midwesterner-
    That was so unfair.
    Someone took the time and effort to write a well thought out letter about a problem in our society.
    He revealed how he had gotten hurt and how upsetting it was for him since he had gone out of his way to be “fair”
    Why do you have to pick on him?
    Give the guy a break and wish him well.

  4. Was the writer going to tell the girl that he would date “extremely sparingly” that even if things look great and he is about to get engaged he will give another girl at least one date?

    What i get from this is the following:

    Dating has become a sport of “how many girls can i go out with?” The casual dating that is going on is similar to goes on in the outside world. How far have we gotten from the roots of how it was in true oilam hatoirah?

    I am happy to hear that the writer has a such a great self image.

  5. I think the “Shidduch Crisis” stems from the fact that the whole “dating” system is simply an imitation of the gentile lifestyle, and is totally inappropriate for Orthodox Jews who seek to establish a family unit grounded in KeDuSha–holiness.

    The traditional way of Jewish marriage is for the parents to fully investigate the prospective shidduch, before allowing the young people to meet. This avoids many painful experiences and saves a lot of wasted time.

    The purpose of the meeting is not to see if there is “romantic interest,” as is common in gentile circles. “Romance” is a gentile fiction for people who hardly know each other.

    The Talmud says that the purpose of seeing each other is simply to see if “they find something repulsive” in each other that would violate the commandment “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,”–VeOHavTa leReyACha KoMoCha!

    This is a very simple test that most couples can pass easily. True love comes later, with commitment and good deeds.

    The main thing is that the people involved have good character traits, so that they can make the necessary adjustments and compromises with each other that are necessary for a happy and successful married life.

    Let’s get over our inferiority complex and stop aping the Goyim around us. With a divorce rate that exceeds 50%, they are not a model of success that we need to emulate!

  6. As a Shadchan of 16 shiduchim I will say what I have said many times. The girls and their familys are no victims of a shidduch crisis. If this was one isolated story of a girls family acting indecent, I would not be saying any of this . However , I have seen girls and their family’s behave similar to this writers story many times. In fact I too had a story like this personally about ten years ago when I was in BMG in Lakewood and in the dating scene.
    There’s an attitude crisis out there, not a shidduch crisis!

  7. great point and well written. may i add that some of your remarks apply for business dealings as well. in this aspect unethical tatics are used as well. i am waiting for a similar letter to be written on this topic. there as well one should focus on why we are making money in the first place. cheat others in order to be able to effort for a catered sholom zochur???

  8. i am a twenty one yr old girl in shidduchim. it happens to be that i am looking for a long term learner so he is not for me. One thing i can say-he is a special boy and i really hope and pray that i find a guy with middos that this one has. I am sorry that he had to experience this- may he find a truly great girl very soon and have a great life with a lot of mazel and brocha!!!Hatzlocha!!

  9. 5, Midwesterner made a very good point and dont feel sorry for the writer. He doesnt seem to feel sorry for himself.

    As comment 6 pointed out;

    If every boy would have as much self esteem as the writer does, maybe shiduchim would be much easier for many young people!

  10. I just would like to relate my own true experience, when my daughter met her first date & they said they would like to continue but they need some more time to gather information & to wait one week, I was not going to be thier FOOL either as i knew very well what they where doing & the boy met another girl in the interim ( what was the so called information gathering )i told my daughter to do the exact same thing & i did not even keep it a secret,( its called playing fire with fire ) i did not do it out of spite or hate or to get even & the reason i did it, was very simple , as they have not made up thier mind & they have not commited to my doughter, that in it self gave me the same right since its not a commitment & yes i have the same right that they have & if they want to take a break i dont have to wait for them to come back to me & that is the lesson in life if people play games just go on with your life & dont play along with them, just play against them, however G-D works in mysterious ways & the shidduch came back & the rest is history.

    But you have to remember people are very sellfish when it comes to Shidduchim as only thier child counts & nobody else & they will do anything & everything under the sun & dont care if its right or wrong, fair or unfair, decent or not,

    One more comment if you have decided to wait till pesach, you should have dated other women & tell your Rabbaim they where wrong & this is a text book example, untill you have not met a person & you are not engaged, you date others as you dont know which is the right one.

    Rabbaim should give shiurim & the likes, but in no way are they experts when it comes to shidduchim sorry but that is my honest beleif & the truth & just because they are big in Torah does not make them on expert in everything outside of torah & good luck to you & hope you are a little bit wiser by now & wont be taken for a ride again & dont be shy or bashfull & dont beleive everything a shadchan tells you, as unfortuante as it may sound, they act like BROKERS who are buying & selling all day long & they only make money when a shidduch is finalized

  11. so… this boy was being nice by dating sparingly? lets say the one girl he dated would’ve been the right one and he wouldve gotten engaged- that girl wouldve been just as outraged. what was the problem with saying that as long as he’s still available pesach time he’s willing to go out?

  12. A very reputable shadchan once told me in the name of Rav Pam zt”l, that there is nothing wrong for any boy or girl to date more than one prospect at a time, until things get serious with one of the prospects (like a 4th or 5th date). Until that point NO ONE has a right to tell you to wait – and not do hishtadlus! This is especially true for boys/girls coming to NY from out of town.
    If something is bashert, both parties should proceed without dreaming, waiting, and *hoping* for the best…
    Hatzlacha

  13. p.s. As I scan the many responses to this letter, I notice that there is is a lack of ungency in the whole Shidduch process. That is a very large part of the Shidduch problem.

    The Talmud repeatedly urges speed in the Shidduch process “Shemu YekadmenU ACher”–lest someone else grab your BaSherte Shidduch while your’e “playing around.”

    Any experienced salesman will tell you how crucial a sense of urgency is to overcome natural “buyer reluctance” and inertia.–Advertisements warn us “Limited Time Only,” etc.

    We need to understand that this applies to Shidduchim too.

  14. I like the tone of the letter, and I do think that using someone is incorrect.

    Possibly, what this guy was trying to do with the “dating sparingly” thing, is since he made the commitment to date this girl, he would still date others, but not try to find dates every day of the week; if something worked out, he’d tell this other girl first.

    I do trust that he meant well, unlike the girl’s parents, who seemed to be using him, as he said, rather than hoping it would simply break-up their daughter’s current relationship.

    So, while it sounds nice, in theory, let’s say the Israel girl does not give her “permission” – can he now tell his about-to-be fiance that he has to break up with her after all that? Or would he simply stop after x dates and tell her he has to wait? It still sounds like a mess, to me.

    I wish all involved, and all others, that they find their zivug easily and speedily, with much happiness and joy.

  15. Having to have had a similar story just this past week:

    I’m a salesman and dropped out of college after three n half years.

    that said, I always make sure to tell the shadchan involved and the girl that esp. in todays society knowing that a large percentage of the girls today want to feel stability.

    I can’t tell you how frusterating it is how much the girls lie and are insensitive to us guys, how many time have I made it clear before going out that I’m a salesman and a dropout of college and say yes to going out waisting my time, the saying goes something like this.

    hmmm what can it hurt!!!!!

    instead of saying you know what he doesnt fit the bill I want someone whos got the peice of paper (profession) we can go into the Emunah and Bitachon at a later time of how much girls beleive more in the system then in hashem that he controls it all and provides but that is for another time.

    I am asking all of you girls and shadchanim alike to please be more consideret of our feelings I was so heartbroakin of late esp. after a girl who lied to my face that we never talked about it before going out and when I forwarded the email that had all the evidence it was silence.

    if you want a professional then say NO don’t hurt us by saying yes and then making us wait a week and come back with what seems like you wanna continue going out or not, then of course I say no cause I have already been confused by it all.

    I want my wife to have the Emunah that it all comes from the one above and raise my children with that same thought in mind.

  16. 4&15 are right, of course, Additionally, the girl never made an outright commitment not to date anyone until Pesach – even if you could have trusted the Shadchan that she’s “really not dating yet”, that’s as of today; what about tomorrow? Purim? People change their minds! I believe it is totally out of place to complain here in absence of a firm commitment, even if the boy would not have gone out at all in the interim.

  17. Midwesterner is right here, the post does not say that the girl also agreed to “date sparingly and not get engaged without dating the boy first”. Besides what does date sparingly mean, is it for tachlis or not? Surely the boy’s rabeeim wanted him to date for marriage. Perhaps this is more of a misuderstanding than anything else.

  18. #4 midwesterner is right. HE ONLY SEES HIS SIDE OF THE STORY. WE HAVENT HEARD FROM THE OTHER SIDE. AS WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE 3 SIDES TO EVERY STORY, HIS SIDE, HER SIDE, AND THE TRUTH.

  19. This letter made me so mad; I think my blood might be boiling.
    A. You cannot double date. It’s rude. It’s unfair. And it’s just plain unfaithful. This is not a game where you can play around with people’s emotions. If you say yes to someone, you have given them your word that you will make your utmost effort to have a good time, and see if he/she is making enough of an impression on you to keep dating. That’s it. There’s no if’s, and’s or but’s. If the date is a bomb, you say no and move on to the next person.
    B. If you are in school, and started your graduate degree, you must be at least 23 years old I’m assuming. You seem smart, sophisticated, and mature. If you were thinking that a girl who’s in the middle of seminary is an enough of an adult for you to have a decent date with, there’s something every wrong with our society. Stop robbing these seminary girls of their cradle. There are plenty of amazing girls who are 20 or 21 and older, that have jobs, and/or are in college and have a better inkling of what marriage, responsibility and commitment means.
    C. Don’t be so hard on yourself, this girl said no to you because she and her family are not one that you want to marry into. Be grateful, and stop taking it so personally that you were spared from a potentially very damaging relationship.

    Shidduchim is not a game; it’s a serious stage of life that takes a ton of effort to get through.

  20. Dear writer, besides the fact, that you were going to date sparingly(whatever that means)yourself, you also state having had many dates with “intelligent, beautiful, thoughtful, special women,who would be great wives”………
    According to that in my book you would have to be engaged yourself by now, and we definitely don’t have to pity you.
    That said i don’t mean to justify the girl’s sides behaviour in your story.

  21. Quite impressive, author. I totally want you for my sister. You’re honest, smart, mature and have a healthy self esteem. What a shame I have no way to reach you…

  22. I truly feel bad for this guy and wish him the best of luck. If anyone read the letter carefully they would realize that he spoke to a Rav I wonder if the girl did the same thing. It seems from what I am understanding a Rav told him to do what he suggested if it would have been uo to him he may have not dated at all if the girl did this too then I see no problem the problem is that the girl (at least the way the guy puts it) never involved a Rav. Anyway best of luck to the author.

  23. Two comments:
    One, Midwesterner is correct to a great degree. The writer decries anyone who will date more than one person at a time, saying he’s a Tzaddik and will sacrifice himself to wait for this girl, but in the same breath he says, “I’ll date sparingly.” That’s like being “a little pregnant.” You’re either dating someone else or your not. Good point Mid.

    Second, when I was dating – a century ago – my father asked me while I was dating one girl, “Why can’t you date like five or six girls, and then go back and choose the ones you want to see again? It should be like buying a car – you go to the Chevy dealer, the Pontiac dealer, the Buick dealer – and after you’ve seen them all, then you go and choose which car you want.” Yeshiva Bochur that I was, I just said, “Abba, in my circles it’s just not done that way.” And it wasn’t. It was never acceptable to do that. Have things changed today?

  24. #16 -that is absolutely untrue.It is basic that its impossible for any boy /gilr to give their datee a fair chance if they are in middle of several things at once…Its not possible to properly focus and get to know the girl.Instead of depending on what soeone told you in the name of a gadol that is (unfortanately) not around to confirm with, why not ask for yourself and see if anyone gives you that psak.Ridiculous!

  25. Don’t knock shadchanim. Most try VERY hard, get very little money, & tons of heartache. I know that that wasn’t the point of this letter, but, it certainly paints a bad picture of them.

    While I feel bad for this fellow, he has to understand that most shadchanim are out there to help people. If the shadchanim that are redding him shidduchim are not being honest & ehrlich, find others. There are plenty of great ones out there!

  26. I thinkmany of the posts suffer from the well-known “AChashVeiRosh Complex.”

    They think they can date 1, 000 girls for 1,000 days and then take their choice.

    Well, I’ve got news for them. If they put a girl on hold, while waiting to see if the next one is “better,” they may lose both!

  27. Jgirl.

    Your absolutely 100% correct.

    the problem is that most people on here are married and come from a totally diffrent generation or society.

    they cant or will never understand.

    what we are going thru is what I beleive a cancer and Y’mos Hamoshiach.

    altough I still think that people should be sensitive in its outmost and not just go out for the sake of hey you never know, the guy has feelings as well (read my post#20)

    in regards to #28 are you out of your mind, how can a person focus and give some a fair chance dating 5-6 girls………oh hold on she has better features then number two yikes but number 3 sounds cuter oooooops I think Number one seems a bit or tad more with it. yikes give us a break its wrong wrong wrong………..don’t compare your sould mate to buying a car cause marriage is about your future life and bring children into a world that shouldnt be based on materialistic stupidity

  28. Very good letter. Just to share what I thought was my most outrageous, conniving, and insensitive shidduch story: Being someone who was married for a short time and then divorced, shadchannim were always chasing me to go out with divorced girls (not much else about her would matter, just as long as she was divorced, them it was assumed we must have tons in common). One shaddchen called about a fantastic girl, from a wonderful family, that she had inside info that the recently married girl was ABOUT to get divorced! Can you imagine?! If it wasn’t insensitive enough, it was also inaccurate: the girl (who obviously I did not look into at the time) never ended up getting divorced.

  29. I have no idea if this guy is right or wrong,if what he is saying about himself, the specific girl in question, and girls and boys and shadchanim, and the whole shidduch scene in total is an honest view or skewed. Probably, like most stories, somewhere in the middle.

    But, I do see that the shidduch system, as currently established, works to a point and beyond that is broken on a universal level. And it needs repairing.

  30. Here is my similar story.

    Around 11 years ago when I was dating, a family friend/Shadchen proposed an out of town girl who came to town….. We met, and being she was never in NYC I took her around and we had a great time, things progressed from there, we met quite a few times and the shadchen and I were under the impression that it was getting time to finish and get engaged, however after the last date the girl did not give an answer right away it took her/them a few days and then came the big shocker (NO) with no reason attached. I was taken back after all it was going so well….,

    I started the process of getting over her, however, merely a few weeks past and a friend of mine (who I asked him to help me find out about this girl) came over to me and said you know the girl you asked me about was dating a friend of mine at the time you asked me and now she got engage to him, BOOM! Nice ah?? I kept quiet and didn’t say a thing.

    Now I’m not going to sit here and analyze all the bad feelings I had and whether they are valid or NOT. Obviously I was very hurt and felt…….

    11 years past and I’m B’H happily married with Bli Ayin Horah a family with health yummy kids. But when ever I hear of a story similar to my own, it brings back bad memories. BUT I always turn my thoughts back to that girl and those bad feeling perish (“some what”, just kidding).

    For me it helped thinking about the girls feelings and I was able to get over this inner pain, I think that one needs to try it and write down all the positive reasons why the other DATER would do what they did, for me it went something like this:

    • Poor girl she was young and a Yesoma (lost her father to Yener Maclah H’Y), Chas V’Sholom to even think that she couldn’t care less about my feelings, all she wanted was a good boy who she can build a Bayis Ne’emon B’Yisroel, and she was spoken one shidduch and then another (me) and he (the first one) was better then me. Some people are very nervous and they can’t think as well as they would otherwise, if she would have known that double dating is not ethical she would never have done it.
    • Maybe someone spoke Loshon Horah about me and she had no choice but to say no and consequently go back to her old shidduch, because he was still available.
    • May be she was soooo pushed into dating me and happened to have enjoyed herself for those dates but L’maaseh I wasn’t for her (for a whole host of reasons).
    • WOW she had such great middos that she MaMesh felt bad for me and dated me till the end (who knows).

    I can go on and on, the bottom line his even though I was VERY hurt, and I wish it doesn’t happen to anyone else, I don’t think it can be avoided completely, because in shidduchim many things, people personalities & feelings are involved and inevitable that things like these will happen unintentionally of course. But I agree with the writer that Yeshiva Bochrim and Girls should try harder not to hurt other peoples feelings and avoid situations were if you say no, it can be a double stab in the other persons heart.

  31. To #7:
    If Beis Din would have done the amount of Drishos Vachakiros for a Din Misoh as is done today for a Shidduch, then Misos Beis Din would never have happened. I mean do they stack their plates? Ech.

    To #18:
    You may have hit the nail on the head. How much of the Shidduchim inquiry process is really delaying tactics & how much is for real?

  32. Where is it written that one cannot date 2 girls at the same time? You guys put too much pressure on yourselves. If you were in the market to buy a camera would you not compare products? It’s not as if you are sampling the merchandise on a date. You can have coffee in the Marriot lounge on Monday with one girl and some popcorn with another girl at the Waldorf the next night. There is no issur here.

  33. coachred613- what on earth are you talking about??? Even if there’s no Issur it’s terrible to do it with two at the same time. The whole time you’ll be comparing their Maalos & Chisronos and therefore since no two humans are the same, you’ll see that each one has Negetives that the other doesn’t have and you’ll end up not taking both of them…

    I believe this is 100% correct…

  34. coachred613 – No issur??? No heter is more like it! Which daas Torah would tell you that dating amongst Bnei Torah is the same as secular dating? No one has the right to go on a date without the intentions of marriage! It is assur. Boys and girls are not not allowed to socalize for any other reason than marriage. Period.

    If you double-date, you aren’t dating to marry. You are socializing with members of the opposite gender. You can’t marry both!!!

    Don’t keep sampling – there is an issur here.

  35. All of this aggravation could have been avoided if instead of a ‘Yes’ he would have answered ‘If both of us are available at that time then I will be glad to see her’ This way, no one is putting their lives on hold, or feeling resentment for what happens afterwards as every one still has their options open, and if you are both still available at that time, that maybe it was bashert for the 2 of you to meet

  36. IDEA!

    My belief in this problem of this “Shidduch Crisis” is that there are not enough Shadchanim redding shiduchaim to regular families. Sure, the super Boys/Girls or the ones come from wealthy families are gedding calls. But the rest are not getting enoough dates, period!
    I propose setting up an organization of Professionals whose jobs will be to set people up and will be awarded for their efforts and shidduchim. They will be compensated by the organization and will focus on the less fortunate as well. Please respond if you agree, have suggestions or are interested in giving a donation.

  37. PROBLEM with DOUBLE DATING!!!!!!!!!!!

    When one goes out he should be going out for a purpose and that is to build a Bayis Ne’emon B’Yisroel, not girl or boy shopping (It’s not like buying a camera #39).

    If you are double dating, P’Shat is that you are shopping for a girl/boy and loose focus of the real Tachlis which is to build a bayis Ne’emon. And you can go on & on comparing girls/boys and each girl/boy might have something that attracts you in a different way and you may think; a! let me drag it out and I might find a third girl to compare to the bunch, and you do just that!

    Meanwhile the other party is being serious and dating for a tachlis (and being that you’re a good faker) she fall’s for you and eventually after dragging it out you find the girl/boy who has a better shutter speed, (#39) and you drop the bomb shell on the other 2 poor girls/boys.

    Other bad things can done when your focus is in the wrong place!

    I’m not saying that you should not look for mutual attraction etc… we just can’t loose our focus in the process. If you don’t feel that the one you are dating is for you then drop it but don’t play games.

  38. Coachred613,
    Of course a guy can date two or more girls at the same time, and vice versa. But, It’s a matter of yashrus, honesty, and menchlichkeit.

  39. Of course A guy can date two girls at a time. I, as an out of towner, when I come in to NY I always date two a three girls per trip. Unless there is an established exclusivity between a guy and a girl then there there is no responsibility, and they both can date whoever they want.
    This chap seems very erliche, and I feel bad he got duped. But he should do a little more research and not believe everyone at first glance.
    If you want to find out about a girl ask her yourself.
    Also a girl in seminary is not ready for marriage.

  40. I wish I could say that this letter was enlightening. I wish I could say that all the comments made a point. But I think the point was missed. There were 3 parties involved here, the boy, the girl and the shadchan who “knew” (However, there was something a bit strange. This girl wasn’t even in the States. She was in Seminary in Israel, and besides for this Shadchan, nobody even knew she was planning on dating in the near future. I was told by the shadchan that she would be returning from seminary for a family Simcha, and she would be available to date then.) For all those who look at the unethical behavior of the boy take in the salesmanship of the shadchan. The shadchan sold this kid that the girl was looking for a date and the boy’s imagination – maybe the family wanted this – took care of the rest.
    This is a business deal – substitute real estate broker and house for shadchan and boy – and the same tsk tsk would occur. Why should any family expect exclusivity, unless they’re paying for it. When you MLS many buyers come to the door and then it’s who meets your price.
    Sarcasm aside, is there one answer, no. Would the bochur have accepted the shadchan doing the same story on some girl for his behalf, he can answer. What’s the masconeh, trust but verify, and that’s for every business decision.

  41. ok i agree with the letter writter (i would even go out with him) –why is everyone yelling at him he says his story and how he was hurt dont you have any sensitivity for him …he sounds like a nice hiemesh erlich boy…..its outright chutzpah of the girl and i wonder if her chossen know what she did-i am 22 and i hope noone ever does that to me—i could go on and on but if its 2 long noone will read it

  42. Oy, am I glad my girls are married. I’d hate to think they may have been redd to a pompous, self-righteous ego maniac. You seem to think you’re such a wonderful catch, how come you’re not engaged/married yet? Could it be because no girl (or her family) is really good enough?

    Double-dating, even sparingly, is unethical. You were going to do it, which makes you somewhat hypocritical. I’ll bet this girl you’re writing about didn’t even know her parents were arranging her life. Be nice, and treat the girls just like you want to be treated.

    I really wish you much Hatzlacha in finding your beshert.

  43. Simply put – he just had to say “if i am available when she is – then we will go out”
    stop making so many cheshbonos on her behalf…”dating sparingly…” etc…”whether she should have her year in Israel or not”…
    you date – you want to get engaged – you do – you don’t say i will still date the other girl before i get engaged… it’s ridiculous! you’re still around when she wants to date – then you date!

  44. Aah, No. 41 you have hit the nail on the head. Acquiring a wife is not like buying a camera and the limited interaction between men and women which have been mandated by the underlings of Daas Torah (notice I separate the Gedolim from their chassidim – see Rav Aharon Kotler, zt”l, letters to his wife, The Making of a Godol)have ceated a society where husbands and wives have nothing in common except for the kids and simply take up space. Ask your parents what it was like for them 25-40 years ago. It was a different Yeshivish world.

  45. Just because we have been forbidden not to marry more than one women doesnt mean we cant date more than one women… or maybe since we cant marry anymore two women so therefore we cant date two women either. What do I know?? Ani Tapuach

  46. coachred613 – sorry buddy, if your main source for daas Torah is a book banned by all Gedolim, I cannot argue with you.

    Nothing has changed since my parents went out years ago. The issur for unmarried people to date not for marriage purposes was around even before that.

    You seem to have an issue with the greater Yeshiva world. I’m sorry, I can’t help you.

  47. wake up and smell the coffee ! were living in a world where everyone is out for themselves! and yes nice guys do finish last! dont sit back and expect the pieces to fall into place for u! be aggressive! most jews seem to be good @ that-try driving in brooklyn! its ur life in the air, act for urself! most people when it comes to themselves are guilty till proven innocent! hatzlacha raba!

  48. a few points. first the bochur should be lucky that he is able to get gets just because he is going to college. many seminary girls today are so brain washed about boys going to college and actually thinking about their future is a shreck.
    second many out of towners won’t come to NY unless they have a few dates lined up if not their trip doesn’t pay. friends of mine from out of town would go out motzei shabbos, sunday afternoon and sunday night. nothing wrong if you mean tachlis. last parents of girls today are so desperate they even send girls to Israel during the zman to chaap the boys before they get back to the states,some even have their daughters go out illegally while they are in seminary to also chaap the boys. the shidduch parsha is sick and getting sicker unless all the mishigassim stop

  49. no wonder it says “kasheh shidduchim keKriyas Yam-Suf…” ! is it difficult for Hakadosh Baruch Hu, Borei Olam to split the seas??! but this is to teach us that Hashem ‘matches’ up our zivug according to our deeds constantly! as one is always going up or down in ruchniyus, it is forever changing! and ONLY He can judge and know our innermost intentions! obviously this match was not meant to be, bottom line. be happy and keep strong and you’ll surely get what u deserve. trust that Hashem knows what’s best for us, and although we go thru yisurim, if we accept it with love and bitachon, He will reward us ten-fold. may we hear yidishe simchas!

  50. first impression I felt bad for you but who are you to feel bad for her year in seminary chazal tell us already shema ykadmnu acher & you can get engaged in the 9 days who are you mr nice guy so let someone else get engaged to her for that is best for her…p.s if a girl is interested & you are you date..hello where are you coming from….mr nice guy….

  51. THIS is why throughout the ages our Chachomim have urged us to marry young — when you are still naive and too dumb to think too deeply into every kvetch.

  52. WHOA!!! there’s enough mud, etc. slinging here in every direction. If this is a response to ONE situation, it’s no wonder the shidduch sitch is in crisis!
    What about those of us with nice, smart, fine kids who play by the rules..are there not enough of us left???

  53. With all due respect(which should tell you where this is headed)…

    If the author of this “letter” expects to be taken seriously given the content of its first three paragraphs he is dealing with a heavy case of cognitive dissonance not to mention arrogance.

    As the great John McClane once said: Welcome to the party pal.

  54. BE HAPPY IT DID NOT WORK OUT-YOU NEED A SPECIAL
    GIRL TO APPRECIATE YOUR OUTSTANDING QUALITY-ANEVUS-HUMILITY…BY THE WAY SINCE THE YESHIVA WORLD IS SO SMALL-I HOPE YOU CHANGED FACTS TO PROTECT THE REPUTATION OF ALL PARTIES INVOLVED…OTHERWISE LOSHEN HARA LAMED HEY GO TO GEHENOM THE EASY WAY

  55. #16 – The shadchan didn’t tell you the truth (perhaps he heard it wrong from a third party). I personally spoke to Rav Pam zt’l about it and he stated emphatically that dating two girls at a time is NOT recommended.

  56. To the writer, I do sympathize with your situation, since it seems you had good intentions, however, bottom line, YOU pushed her off till Pesach, because as you write “I know how amazing the Israel experience can be, and I didn’t want her growth to be cut short”. Since when did you become her “guidance counselor” to know that the Israel experience was so crucial for her growth? – Life is tpo short to speculate on this kind of nonsense, As in many things in life, shidduchim is TOE (time is of the essence).

    I wish you Hatzlacha in finding your Bashert really soon.

  57. I don’t understand where this guy’s parents were in such a situation. Why should a bachur be involved in making these decisions? He is too involved and young for these decision, that why parents are supposed to take calls from shadchanim and do the research. If you leave decisions on who to date to young people then of course you end up with double dating and all kind of weird things.

    If the parents are immature then that is another story and I feel bad for their kids. But normal people should be taken care of by their parents.
    I feel bad for this bachur but what should of happened is his parents hearing about the girl and hearing that she was in seminary and realize it is not applicable until she returns! End of story. Why put a boy through the decision making of something he is extremely subjective to?

    I think the whole discussion here about double dating etc is so off of torah’s ideals that it is sickening.

  58. You are all right, and all wrong.

    The very problem is the very act of “Dating.”
    It is a goyishe custom and is done not to find a mate, but as an end in itself.

    There are many individual problems with the system:
    Girls who are too picky
    Guys who are too picky
    Girls who see dating as free entertainment, and the more the merrier, never telling any one about her activities with other,
    Guys who keep trying, seeing if they can find someone better than the last one, etc.

    The list goes on. All are wrong.

    If any of you believe you can “evaluate” a potential mate from dating you are very naive.

    IF there is honesty from shadchannim and from both sides, then the information from basic chakira, and one or two meetings should tell you all you need to know.

    Seeking to “fall in love” and using that as a basis for marriage as the goyim do, has resulted in the Jewish divorce percentages not equaling the goyishe percentages. This is a tragedy.

    If you marry for looks, or passion, then after a few years when the looks fade and the passion passes, you are looking at a picture of the person you did not want to marry.

    Remember, the great figures change. The smooth skin loses its smoothness. The soft gentle voice can easily become the nasty voice of an angry and bitter person.

    If you lie at the onset, then as the lies are discovered, the love and attraction are replaced with lack of trust and anger.

    If you told your kallah you were number one in Yeshiva and after 3 years she discovers you were just an average talmid, she will loose all respect for you.

    If you told your chosson that he is the only one you saw, or the first and only one you dated, or something close to that, then he finds out later that you had a string of guys you turned down, he wonders what other lies you told him.

    Men, Women, lay all your cards on the table up front, before the first meeting, or at least the first time you are alone. That secret you decide to keep for later, will haunt you. There is never a “good time” to come clean later.

    We need to not seek the perfect mate. We need to seek that man or woman that we feel we are capable of “learning to work together at building a family.”

    If you chose for midos, you will see your attraction grow and blossom, along with love, over the years.

    If you chose for looks and attraction up front you are more likely to be disappointed later on.

    But, how do you find out about the midos with everyone lying and covering up the past?

    There is one of the other problems.

    You may think I am nuts, but I really believe that the man who says up front:
    I am a pretty good talmid. Not the best, but not the worst. But I do know how to learn, and hope to continue all my life.
    I am not single-minded, I do have a few interests outside. I like an occassional ball game, and like to follow the teams.
    or, I learn, but I also like to read xxxxxx secular stuff.
    and similar honesty about ALL things.
    Be honest about your fears, and faults.
    Be honest about your best features too, but don’t brag.

    and Ladies, if you hear from the man that he likes to travel, don’t say, “Oh, I love to travel also.” while you are really a homebody. That is fraud, and will come back to bite you in the long run.

    Don’t say you like something just because the other does. But if you chose to marry him/her, work as hard as you can to LEARN to like it.

    “LOVE” is not an emotion.
    “LOVE” is the actions you do to make the OTHER one happy.

    That emotion at the beginning that you call “Love” is really infatuation. It is short lived.

    Almost ANY two honest people, with good midos can “MAKE THEMSELVES COMPATIBLE AND HAPPY WITH EACH OTHER”

    That is the way we did it for centuries and had very low divorce rates. Almost every one you meet is a wonderful potential mate if you look with the right attitude, and go into it with humility and honesty.

    If you are too hung up on finding the “perfect” mate, then YOU are not a good mate for anyone.

  59. 64,
    ,,,,,,when you are still naive and too dumb to think too deeply into every kvetch.’

    What happens when your married for a few years and THEN realize how dumb you WERE and REGRET that you didnt thinkt TOO deeply into every kvetch????

    Hashem Yishmor!

  60. #29 tek, #68 gavra:

    Perhaps the number I mentioned (4th or 5th date) is inaccurate. Perhaps Rav Pam really meant only up to a 3rd date (ve’chadoima). But my point is still true! Obviously Rav Pam didn’t want a boy to seriously *date* more than one girl at a time. His point was that although they’re going out, and maybe even talking tachlis, you can’t consider a boy & girl serious after only one or two dates. So (l’moshol) if a boy from out of town comes specially (during the zman) to date and finds himself in a situation with potential for two girls he can plan to go out with both – one on the first day, and one on the second day. A serious and ehrlich boy will then be able to decide if he wants to go further based on the merits of each girl – and will not compare them against each other. This is the point of Rav Pam. I have heard this b’shmoi from a very respected elderly shadchan in Flatbush, someone who learnt in Chaim Berlin and had a close kesher with many gadolim of the past era. I also personally asked my Rosh Yeshiva, a talmid chacham who learnt in Yeshivas Chevron by R’ Sarna, who also agreed that until things get serious, more than one date at a time is okay.
    I agree, the boys who compare girls like they do Borsalinos are not mentchen. I myself object to this idea mentioned in previous comments about shidduchim being like car buying. Of course shidduchim is not about looking good with the best one out there. But shidduchim is about finding someone who you’re compatible with while also better defining who you yourself are. That is why many times a boy or girl will at first say no following the first date, but a year later will rethink and decide to give it another shot. This is all part of the process.
    Many girls that I have met (all 100% frum Bais Yaakov), were told by the shadchan ahead of time, that I may be coming to NY for more than one date. And none of them had any problem with it – especially the older ones who are in touch with reality. I encourage more girls who are reading this to comment whether this is crazy or logical.
    Hatzlacha to all …

  61. Even if you think it’s fine to date more than one person at a time – would you be honest to the shadchan and the people you are dating and tell them that you believe in dating more than one at a time? If not, it’s an indication that you think there’s something not completely right about it.

    In business, it’s fine to review more than one bidder for a job, and everyone knows that. And you wouldn’t mislead someone into thinking he’s the only bidder if there are others that you’re seriously considering at the same time.

    So do it if you will – but be open and honest. And if you can’t, then you shouldn’t be doing it.

  62. A different point: Fine go out with three girls at the same time but tell each of them you are dating two other girls. I have a hard time believing any one of them will agree to such an arrangement. I would not. If you are not telling them because they will not agree then it is pure genavas daas. It is stealing what we klap al cheit on yom kippur for.

    I would not want to marry someone like that either, who knows what they will do behind your back! Honesty is integral to any relationship and if someone cannot date honestly how can they be trusted to act honestly in other situations?

  63. It’s true. My son, who learned in top yeshivas including Reb Avrohom Yehoshua in E”Y, married about a year ago. The process has still left me traumatized. A very close relative, a Rosh Yeshiva’s rebbetzin, and a third party all decided that they knew the perfect girl for my son. They proceeded to use their closeness as a springboard for all that you mentioned above: lying, trampling, pawning. I can’t go into details: needless to say, my son now has his hands full with his responsibilities to his shlom bayis, instead of being focused on his learning. And as for me, I try to avoid going into Brooklyn: whereas I once felt the nachas of Hinei Ma Tov UMa Naim Sheves Achim Gam Yachad, now, all I feel is alienation, distance, as I was thrown out of the klal and am now completely on my own. The pain of the betrayal and back- stabbing is at times, unbearable, and all by well meaning people who really feel that the end justifies the means.

    Hatzlocha Rabba to you. You are an exemplary young man, and Hakadosh Baruch Hu will certainly bentsch you with your aishes chayil. And may this awful incident be a kapporah so that you will be zocheh to build a bayis neeman b’Yisroel with only nachas and brocha as your lot in this world.

  64. to KSN, #70. If you think a boy should not be involved in the arrangements of the person he’s going to date because “He is too involved and young for these decision” then what on earth makes you think he’s ready to get married?! Marriage comes with responsibilities a lot more serious and complicated than simply finding out about someone, and deciding how/if he wants to date- if he can’t do that, he shouldn’t be getting married. (i’m not talking about the boy in this specific case, just what KSN thinks about boys – or their parents- dating in general)

  65. I have been in involved in shiduchim for almost 25 years and B”H witnessed several dozen successful marriages that came from my introductions. After my third match, I was deeply inspired that it has NOTHING to do with my services, nothing to do with my “genius” insights, and nothing to do with my integrity – If you know what I mean? It all comes from HKB”H and we just have to do our hishtadlus! I never deceived any of my singles which numbered in the 1000’s … I just try! Don’t blame me, my shadchun colleagues, or anyone else! My single biggest advice, “discard the critiquing because it only makes this time seem more desperate and frustrating! Come to the shadcunim in Monsey! Chill … your time will come!” As for the shadchunim who aren’t so straight forward … well, if it worked for you or your friends… you might be laughing and joyful over the turn of events in your favor! BTW, I heard my success rate numbered over 250… But don’t believe it… Someone single made it up! Maybe it was a ploy to get me more good boys because everyone knows I have the best girls! And one more thing … 27 years ago my shadchun showed me a picture in his album of this very striking young bochur … I ended up marrying him – However, we discovered this wasn’t his picture at all! We laugh about it still to this day – Lots of mazel and brucha to you, all your single friends, and all the singles I help as well…

  66. Grow up! You claim to be perfect – a Talmid Chacham, wealthy, smart, handsome, going to a prestigious (presumably law) school, and are getting set up with the most beautiful, smart, Meyuchas and wealthy women on the planet. How about some hakoras hatov to G-d for everything you’ve supposedly got going for you as opposed to us mere mortals. Perhaps G-d is trying to inject some humility into you. I found your letter to bve quite repulsive. A true Ben Torah would never say about himself what you did.

    This incident that you claim has traumatized you is relatively petty. Maybe look around you and see the genuine hardships that people endure in life. Be a man!

  67. Reading your letter has re-instilled the faith that there are moral and ethical mentchen out there (you). I’d like to ask the name of the Yeshiva you went to since they obviously did a great job of chinuch. Of course the bulk of the credit goes to your family, and they should be proud that they have raised such a ben-torah.

    Chazak Ve’amatz!

  68. #78 i think (judging by your style of writing)i know you and dealt with you… YES there are honest shadchonim out there. remember, not everything need to be said before 2 people meet. the Chofets Chaim already wrote about that. not saying everything DOES not make a shadchan dishonest if he follows the Torah rules (what is that??)

    #79 your first (and second)point is VERY right.the backgroung of this bochur does not add or diminished the wrongdoings of the other side. he is merely stam talking about his groise maalas… it got nothing to do with his story…

    i do agree however to the general “concern” of his… you can/t trust people today.

  69. i too agree w/ #81. meyuchas or not, black hat, leather yarmulke, srugi, 23 years old, 35 years old, wealthy family, poor family, well regarded yeshiva or not…etc, etc… the avla of the other side is the same.

  70. Just a comment about selfishness. It’s a human trait. That is why there is that famous story of the man who saved captives on a ship, one of whom he arranged in marriage for his son…only on the day of the wedding, he found the orphaned bride crying..she was deeply indebted to the man for saving the shipload of captives including herself, but she had wanted to marry another captive…this man spoke to his son, who stepped aside and allowed the other orphaned captive to marry the bride…the reward this man got was very great..(olam haba? (don’t remember)) my point is, SELFLESSNESS is a very high maaylah to achieve.

  71. As a 22-year-old single girl, I too am buoying in the waves of the “shidduch crisis.” Unfortunately, I don’t have the plethora of options that are presented to this fine gentleman, but I don’t think that my situation is any harder/easier than his.

    I believe that he and I, and the 80+ commentators all see the problem. But how do we go about correcting it?

    The widespread sense of entitlement — the “Of course my family deserves the best; who cares who I need to step on in order to get there.” is unfortunately a prevelant mantra throughout the frum community.

    Shall we blame the parents? Well, the imagery that comes to mind is a medieval tournament — they are trying to be their daughters’ champions.

    So, shall we blame the shadchan? More often than not, they are also a pawn in the game.

    And though my heart does go out to you, it does seem that neither of the guilty parties in your case will care for the responsibility.

    And therein lies the problem.

    Instead of quoting Rav Pam ZTL’s aitzah of what role “exclusivity” plays in the shidduch world, I think we all might be better off thinking of how he would react to those who would lie, cheat, and steal to build cornerstones of batei ne’eman b’Yisrael.

    Earlier, someone compared his situation to that of someone navigating the real estate market. In response to that metaphor, would any one agree to buy a house if an inspecting engineer questioned the stability of its foundation?

  72. I found it interesting that you chose to preface your brief biographical comments with a note that you are “part of a reputable, loving, wealthy family in New York.” Would the remainder of your letter be applicable to all of those who are not members of the New-York-Charedi-elite? You clearly have many shidduch prospects lined up after (or perhaps even during!) the young lady and her chosson’s lchaim, bshaa tova umitzlachas, and one wonders why you are so intent on going out with this girl — might it be related to your above comment on your own financial status rather than who she is as an individual?? You are, indeed, correct that this incident “is an example and indication that we have lost our bearings and moral compass when the time comes to be married off,” but I believe that you are mistaken as to your role in this problem. You should be happy for the young lady, just as she will likely be when you find your zivug, bekarov mamesh. You seem like a really nice guy — and perhaps you’re even a friend of mine (was it you who I spoke with this morning??) — but nonetheless, this incident should be a wake up call not only for the entire shidduch world, but for you, as well, to refocus yourself for what you are looking for in a girl, rather than what you’re looking for in “the shidduch.”

  73. #73 >Perhaps Rav Pam really meant only up to a 3rd date (ve’chadoima).

    Please tell this “very respected elderly shadchan in Flatbush” that Rav Pam told us, his talmidim, NEVER to go out with two girls at one time, even if it’s only the first date. You can hear it on tape. Call up Kol Haloshon and listen to his Chaya Sarah Shmoozin. He said it in public during a shmooze on a number of occasions. He told it to me personally too.

  74. I think your point is very well made. I think honesty is so important because so many hearts are involved with shidduchim. More importantly, I applaud your decision to send in this article. There are already 88 comments! This is a topic people should be discussing. People should know how lies and manipulation effect people at their core. Good Luck to you with this process, I’m struggling through it with you but I’m willing to wait as long as it takes to find someone who’s haskafa, morals and values include honesty.

  75. I was “in the parsha” for more than 5 years before I got married. I didn’t believe in dating 2 people at one time, but nevertheless I did it once. I’m not asking for approval, I just want to show it’s not black and white. When I was 24 (I know that’s not ancient but it means that the majority of bachurim in Lkwd weren’t interesting in going out with me because I was older than them or too close to their age), a shidduch came up that sounded exactly like what I wanted. By the time the shadchan established that we were both interested one of us was busy with another shidduch. Whenever one of us would get unbusy, the other one would be busy. It not like I constantly had dates, but for some reason I usually had a long dry spell followed by a few dates at a time. So I really wanted to go out with this person. One time, after I had just left to a date, my mother saw the shadchan calling and was sure she was calling to say that he was now available to go out. My mother waited to call her back until I got home from the date. I didn’t think the shidduch was going to work, but was willing to give it another try. So I decided to start dating this person before I was done with the previous person, so he wouldn’t get busy again. I was willing to take the risk because most of my shidduchim didn’t end up going longer than 2 dates. And in the end neither of these 2 did either.

    Btw I don’t get the letter. Why didn’t you just tell the girl that you would date other people in the meantime and if you were still around pesach time, then you would go out with her? Surely no one expects you to hold off going out on shidduchim so this girl could finish her sem year.

  76. I am curious to know which prestigious yeshiva and graduate school produced a way of thinking that dating “extremely sparingly (I was very busy as it was with school)” is a person who can say with a straight face “and I value my word and my commitment”. Also, which rabeim would tell a person to date without intent of possible marriage. Most important, we can all learn from here that a boy whose resume says”I am part of a reputable, loving, wealthy family in New York. I attended one of the most well-regarded Yeshivas in America for a number of years, where I learned at a very high level. I recently started a graduate degree program at a very prestigious institution, and I have daily Chavrusas and keep up with my Rebbeim regularly, with whom I have a very close kesher.” run away

  77. By pushing the date off till Pesach, the writer made a decision based on his personal presumption that this girl would prefer to finish her year in Seminary rather than get engaged. This was a presumption that was not based upon any actual knowledge as to what this girl or her family wanted — but rather on a projection of his own preferences. He should then have made it clear that he was not planning on dating anyone until that time. Had he done so, the family would have been required ethically to commit themselves to the same. If, as was the case here, that would have been an impossibility, it seems to me that the boy should have been told immediately that they are not abiding by the same commitments (they didn’t need to elaborate on the reasons for this — because, after all — until one is engaged, anything can happen to not bring that about).

  78. there are two sides to every story and reading this letter snd finding out the girl who recently got engashed that the boy is refering to.

    she had no intentions of dating now someone suggested it now and it was a perfect oppertunity to go out forgetting about you boy!!!

  79. #92 (2sides…): A commitment is a scary thing to break.

    If someone understands the importance of the above fact is, they don’t “FORGET” about another person to whom they’ve committed!!

    What a LAME excuse!!

    I am appalled

  80. btw the last time i checked the year doesnt end by pesach….and what israel experience?the main reason girls go 2 israel is 2 check out,schmooz,hang out w guys etc….so its better to get them married off as soon as possible.trust me i know.

  81. #79 your so right.a guy who thinks he is gods gift to mankind.that should not bother him at all. if what he is saying is true.it sounds to good to be all true.

  82. This young man sounds like a very fine, sensitive individual who has his priorities in the right place. It seems he was misguided into thinking the “dating extremely sparingly” routine would be okay. Either you are dating or your not. It’s like being “a little bit pregnant”!

  83. # 94,perhaps your talking from YOUR PERSONAL experience, but to make such a blanket statement is pure motzie shem ra on a klal,if i remember hilchos shmiras halashon correctly, you are mchuyav to ask mechilla from every girl that chose to go to israel for sem.

  84. “it was decided that I would date extremely sparingly (I was very busy as it was with school), and that I could not get engaged without giving this girl a date first.”
    What does that mean? Did you TELL the shadchanim of the girls that you were “dating sparingly” that YOU had made a commitment to SOMEONE ELSE to go out after Pesach and WOULD NOT GET ENGAGED without giving the girl who seemed to be “absolutely fantastic” and from a family of the “highest caliber” a date?!!!

  85. It’s amazeing how many shrinks there on in the world. What’s done is done-in case no one realized the girls engaged!! Talk about crying over spilled milk!!! I’m sure this guy is hurt but welcome to the carreer of shidduchim!

  86. Interesting that we havent heard back from the author of the letter.
    When i originally read the letter, i was struck by the fact that maybe he should try to date out-of town girls, since in my experience, much of the “shtick” and deceit is not the way most of the out-of town families operate.(of course there are exceptions, but generally out of town families tend to be more temimusdik and dont know from such things). but as i read all of the comments, i realized that i had missed alot of underlying meaning in the tone of the letter, especially the part where he is “dating extremely sparingly” and the self-important tone with which he introduces himself. the conceit is unfortunately very common now with the shidduch situation the way it is- the array and plentitude of girls available for the boys to pick from, no, rather knocking down the doors to get them to go out with them, is enough to give anyone a swelled head.
    that brings me to another topic that i would like to discuss. girls who will go in to date boys. of course it all stems from this situation of too many girls and boys having lists, but the lack of mentchlichkeit on the boy’s part that this practice fosters cannot be a good foundation to a marriage. there are many boys who say they will not travel out of the new york area to date, and that if the girls want a date, they should come to them. one boy even told me that if the girl ever came to new york he would “give her a date.” i asked him if he was the king to grant her an audience! what chutzpa!! it goes against “derech ish lachzor achar isha” that klal yisrael used as a guide for their middos all these years!
    please boys, dont let yourself fall further into the trap of this shidduch situation. if and when you finally agree to “grant a girl a date”, she lives out of town, be a mench and salvage your middos as well. go to her.

  87. so funny how everyone just talk the talk try being in our situation actually if your married stay that way:)

    you people have no clue what the heck is going on

  88. i’d like to know which situation you are in? the boy who has tons of names and sometimes dates more than one girl at a time to compare them? the girl who has no dates? the girl who has to travel to go to the boy when it is really his responsibility due to this glut of girls? are you a boy who dates for non-marriage purposes? how can we know what you are going though if you dont elaborate?

    and by the way, why do you assume everyone who posted is married?

  89. I am the author of this letter.
    I would like to thank you all for your comment and criticism. Part of the reason why I wrote this was to enable my eyes to be opened beyond just where I see things. I have realized that many of my beliefs reflected here are immature and selfish. Sometimes it is hard to swallow your pride when dealing with such a personal topic, and I was acted shallow because of it.
    I guess my core message of trying to be ethical remains the same, but I can see where I myself was wrong. Thank YOU for helping me grow through this.

    I also would like to clarify a little bit. The description I gave of myself was not totally honest. I wrote it this way in order to change the actual facts of the story so nobody would be hurt and because I thought being both a yeshiva guy and college guy would allow for less stereotyped feedback.
    An incident very similar (again, with changed facts) happened to me about a year ago, but I brought it up again when my friends started talking about their (mostly positive) opinions about double-dating and I was upset.
    I am hoping that having this new perspective, given to me from the ‘Am’ of Klal Yisroel represented by all the comments, will give me the clarity to go forward and find my zivug.

    ps. I mentioned the high quality girls I date not to boast, but as a way of expressing how incredibly impressed I am with the girls on the dating scene in general. Their schools and seminaries are doing a great job making well-rounded people.

    pps. For all those who asked. I do date out-of-town girls occasionally. And I usually go to them (at least for the first date).

  90. To the author, I am impressed you accepted the criticism and it sounds like your opinion changed for the good. That is a great quality in a person and I hope who ever marries you benefits from that.
    Hatzlacha raba.

  91. frumpo

    i know this is a little late but you sound like a solid good boy. i don’t think anyone was judgeing you, you went thru a hard situation and you baruch hashem overcame it.
    you will be an amazeing husband, im sure of it.
    may you find you zivug amiti without any more difficulties.