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I am not so sure that Taanis fully approves of this attitude. It criticizes Eliezer for not qualifying that the girl is not lame or blind, but it does not criticize him for requesting her to have right middos.
Avira> it is completely forbidden to believe that chazal erred in science issues.
Avira is attacked for allegedly claiming that “chazal knew all science”.
We probably need to separate “knew all science” from “erred in science issues”. Chazal did not have to address all science issues, and it seems to me that they filtered science and general knowledge of their times thru both Torah positions and their expertise in logic, omitting a lot of errors prevalent in their times.The question whether ” chazal erred in science issues” is an interesting question by itself, but is different from “chazal knew all science”. And, when discussing this issue, hopefully posters would honestly discuss it rather than simply bringing opinions that support their side, leaving for the opponents to bring other opinions, sometimes from same author. It is bitul zman & Torah to argue like this on a complicated matter, on which there are clear disagreements throughout generations of respectable thinkers on both sides.
Shadchanim hording resumes and matching according to their understansding seems to be one of the issues leading to narrow choices.
I heard there is a modern way to share shidduch resume thry Isawyou@sinai, with YU having their own subgroup there. Is there a yeshivishe version? And if not, maybe there should be.Shortness might also be affected by lack of nutrition.
So, like in this case, the OP throws in all kind of partisan points, without bothering to check which ones of them are strongly supported, which ones are “possible” and which ones have no support at all. I would think that bitter experience of Jewish marxists would teach us a lesson.
>> Some of the political points in the original posting are irrelevant to us (e.g. while Ukraine’s defeat will encourage Iran and Hamas, immigration policy and the exaggerated response to Covid are not Jewish issues, though if Medinat Yisrael goes the way of Afghanistan we will liberal immigration rules in place)
R Soloveichik comments on Megilah that it is naive thinking that world events are irrelevant, they all end up affecting Jews in a major way. R Avigdor Miller writes that everyone should learn lessons from events that are far away. If you do not learn that lesson, then the next event R’L will be closer until we learn … And, at the end, Hashem sent us to be ohr legoyim and when we can affect it, we should. This approach might be getting a bad press due to irresponsible Jews doing crazy things “to save the world”, but that is due to the Jews applying their considerable energy inappropriately. This does not take away our responsibility to the world.
Medieval Christians insisted on Jews having different dress from them. In 16th century Poland, yellow hats were decreed for Jews – with an exemption during travel. Presumably, without the hats, many Jews dressed like Polaks. Things indeed changed under Russian government:
1804 Russian law: (soon after Poland was divided and Russia got a big part of it)
Jewish children attending parochial or district schools, may wear Jewish dress, but those attending gymnasiums must wear German or Polish [style] dress for the purpose of uniformity.anyone who would like to be elected as a Member of Town Council from among the Jews in the Gubernias incorporated from Poland, for general order and uniformity, must wear Russian or Polish dress, if they do not like to wear German dress. In the Russian Gubernias where Jews are permitted to live, Jews elected to Town Council must wear German dress.
nobody can be elected or appointed to any position in Kahal or the Rabbinate without being literate in [ Russian, German or Polish]
Manufacturers, artisans, artist and merchants will be permitted to visit other Gubernias and even capitals due to business purposes for a specified period of time, but only by a Gubernator issued passports, about which [Governers] in their turn have to send monthly reports to the Minister of Interior [on passport issuing].
Jews (including their wives and children) temporarily traveling outside of the Pale, have to wear German [style] dress no different than that of others. If they wear traditional dress, they shall be sent back [to the Pale] by the Police.More came in 1840s and 50s
CS,
so you seem to answer me that yes, older generation did not support the rebbe-moschiach movement, or at least, was divided into two groups? This explanation makes sense, as I was mostly listening to older people, and most of them were not part of the new movement. I think this should give you a pause, though – how come people who were right there did not share your views that are based on viewing videos and explanations of them. This violates Kuzari principle – a belief based on evidence starting with people who saw the evidence firsthand.And you can’t dismiss that generation as some dor hamidbar. If we are talking about elderly people in the 90s, they were with L Rebbe for 50 years of his leadership, educated by him, they had early memories of alter heim, and they spent most of their lives in US, so I think they saw a big picture.
> book on novardok, which obviously didn’t include the picture of the chazon ish standing for rav kook
why would you quote a book with such low standards?
I am also not sure whether Satmar Rebbe was the only initiator of the new minhag of everyone dressing up like Rabbonim before them, I think there were others also. Are you saying other Rabbonim picked it up from Satmar?
I agree, btw, that Chazal appear to have a strong tradition re: creation of the world even in the overwhelming face of the contemporary scientific evidence.
That does not mean that Hashem shared with us all volumes of Feynman’s physics textbook. For example, glancing at same Pesachim 94 – discussion about star looking the same from any angle is the same classical argument that I tihnk Greeks had – some of whom computed distances to Moon and Sun, but were not able to observe parallax to the stars and thus developed theories that stars belong to stationary spheres. Now, if you read passages like that not being familiar with basics of ancient science, then you would not see these correlations.
Avira, are other quotes from my post also questionable? But it seems we are moving towards throwing at each other quotes form authors who argue with each other and accuse each other from not quoting enough. For example, R Tam above is not an only one commenting on Pesachim. I can’t commit time required to verify all these claims right now. My opinion was not based on specific claims, but on overall scene of Talmudic discussions. Just for fun, though, while we are on Pesachim 94, how about a much simpler question: what is the length of parsah that corresponds to the size of Mitzraim?
CS > Beis Moshiach is gematria 770
Do we have precedence of someone hinting subtly like that? Naviim seemed to be pretty straight-forward about their role. So were aspiring Moschiachs – from Bar Kochba to Shabtai Tzvi.
> Also, after the stroke, the Rebbe encouraged yechi with the little time we had with him
Did you see this personally? At that time – after the stroke – a choshuve local Rav publicly said that he called Rebbe’s secretariate and asked them how he can be helpful, and they asked him to state publicly that all the meshugas is NOT coming from them – and that is what he told us.
Mazal tov. You should keep your user name, you are not losing your CT license, so it will not be a misrepresentation.
maybe it will be helpful to bring some quotes that can help us clarify positions:
In my opinion, the first principle that every student of Chazal’s statements must keep before his eyes is the following: Chazal were the sages of God’s law – .. They did not especially master the natural sciences, geometry, astronomy or medicine – except insofar as they needed them for knowing, observing and fulfilling the Torah. We do not find that this knowledge was transmitted to them from Sinai ….. We find that Chazal themselves considered the wisdom of the gentile scholars equal to their own in the natural sciences. To determine who was right … they did not rely on their tradition but on reason. Moreover they even respected the opinion of the gentile scholars, << Rav S.R. Hirsch – Trusting the Torah’s Sages, Chapter 4The great excellence of the Sages of the Talmud in the interpretation of the Torah.. does not oblige us to accept all their statements in the spheres of medicine, natural science or astronomy. << Rav Sherira Gaon (or possibly his son, Rav Hai Gaon) Maamar al ha-Derashot, Ein Yaakov,
Chazal knew the law as a tradition from earlier generations … But with regard to scientific explanations, it is not that the explanation mandates the law, but rather the opposite: that the law mandates an explanation. The reason given in the Talmud is not the sole possible reason. And if, on occasion, they gave an explanation according to the scientific knowledge of their day, we are obligated to search for other explanations which establish the law on
its basis according to the scientific knowledge or our day. Thus I heard from Rav Dessler zt’l.switching to modern situation. A Rav who works for a yeshiva that takes in boys who have problems in “top” yeshivos writes a number of great articles about how to deal with kids as people, nurture them, quoting a lot of roshei Yeshivos, etc. Wonderful approach and writing. I think, he undersells himself, as same approach should also be applied to “top” students.
So, he spends several articles arguing that yeshivos should not be evaluated (including by parents who decide, or not, to send kids there) by quality of students at the beginning or even at the end – but by improvement they make at the end over the initial condition, and improvement includes middos and learning ability, not just amount of memorized material.
Wonderful. Now, it happens that there is academic work on measuring school and teacher quality using exactly this method – relative improvement over initial stage. I do not recall details, but there were lots of details learned from this. Of course, secular educators in general do not care for this. Now, does this Rav know about such research? Maybe no, or maybe yes, but he does not see any use in bringing it xto his yeshivish readers.
So, he goes around using his heimishe version of this scientific approach without any contact with the existing literature. Would he go further if he were to read about existing work? Maybe, he would go further and actually measure that improvement .. I don’t know. But clearly even great Rabonim might be disconnected from the existing chochmah.
yeridat hadorot according to the seder hahalanot (from Windows 3 to 11)
I may not fully apprehend what your statement is. It would help to see some examples. When you say ” they did not err in scientific issues.” – this is a somewhat defensible statement. As I see it, Chazal passed science or general chochma of their time/place and often avoid relying on things that are not proven enough. Bavli method of logic is very good at verifying confidence of a statement (al pi Maharal, not a Maskil), so they applied same approach to science they were bringing into their argument. And, again, there are certain positions that Chazal take based on tradition against all odds, such as creation ex nihilo.
Avira > rav meiselman’s sefer
I apologize if I created such impression. I did not read this sefer, just read reviews and discussions about it, and also read and met some of the authors he is quoting/discussing.
As to bans, I hope you had a chance to read another infamously banned sefer about making a Rav Kamenetsky that does not go into hard scientific problems, but simply provided high quality research in the life of the author’s father. If you believe into bans after that … Even if someone thought that publicizing the book in certain circles with have some harmful effect, surely one should contact and appease the author who spent years on this research, and this does not seem to happen.
Avira > The maskilim pick up on one rishon, rabbeinu Avrohom ben harambam
I am sorry, I do not know any maskilim in my neighborhood. I am sure there are some, but we do not intersect. In this case, it is my own conclusion from going thru cases and making a mental estimate of what could explain each particular case. Of course, I am affected by meta-literature I read – from multiple sides of the argument. In this case, I just brought a current traditional Chacham that agrees with your view but does not cinsder the opposite as apikorisus.
We need to separate the bitter biased arguments in the times of haskala from our current situation where society absorbed already 200 years of industrial life.
Think: nobody seriously argues that we do not need hishtadlus in watching the fire or crossing the street. Gemora discusses these in detail. Somehow, when the discussion concerns modern artifacts – science, colleges – everyone is up in arms. The reason is obvious – recent history when going to college meant abandoning the shtetl.
Looking at discussions of R Messelman, I see this: an explicit statement that chazal relied on science of their time is attributed to Avrhaham b’ Rambam – and many disagreed. R Ovadia Yosef disagrees but does not allow calling those who in our time agree w R Avraham heretics.
To clarify my view, I don’t think that Chazal “relied” on science of their time in a simplistic way – we do halakha and ask scientists for quotes in science. Some Chazal relied sometimes on their own expertise and filtered science of the time through both tradition and their own high standards of proofs. Furthermore, most Amoraim did not live in places/times of high science, so they mostly react to generic knowledge of the society.
Avira,
I agree on midrashim about melech Shlomo and about positions on such fundamental questions as Creation – scientific positions from Greeks to early 20th century Big Bang was that world was not created.Still, if you go thru Gemora’s discussions of various issues, you can clearly see that – amoraim at least – mostly operate from physical facts and logic, and literary arguments about text of Chumash and Mishnayos and Baraisos. Their analysis is often very intricate as they paid more attention to how crops grow and animals behave than we do. To say that amoraim did not operate from the facts known to them essentially means to reject more than half of the Gemora arguments.
you guessed my day job correctly. In fact, I rely heavily on CR for the material. Midwestern goyim love this stuff.
CS, many people simply pretend to respect Torah leaders, while in reality simply respecting just the leaders who happen to conform to that person’s views. For example, YWN front page refers to brachot for tzahal by a respected Sephardi Rav. How many people will now consider such brachot acceptable? Not holding my breath.
A truly kosher store would have these products in a separate aisle, protected by a narrow hallway with a weight trap – you can only get in if you fit into the hallway and not fall in the trap. Will be good for business also as the customers will live and shop longer.
why dont we use a traditional definition of Chassidim from gemorah – people who are machmir on themselves, esp when dealing with other people. Most of them did not seem to have rebbes, sometimes even doing things against what their rebbe taught them, like the gentleman in Bava Kamma who struggled to walk in the middle of the road even when his teachers walked on other people’s properties.
> may want to think about visiting their kevarim
Dont know what LR would think of that, but my guess – r Soloveichik would not approve.. a more sure tikun would be to read seforim by these Rabonim and quote them here.
Avira> their novel ideologies.
We need to admit that new circumstances usually require new approaches, not necessarily ideologies. And people often do not know in advance what will work.
I re-re recenty in a row Chofetz Chaim and r Soloveichik letters. Comparison is a little unfair – former are from 1920-30s, latter – 40-50s, but Chofetz Chaim letters are a cry in the wilderness when things are getting worse every year in Poland, he repeats – dont send kids to anti-religious schools, have at least one kosher cheder in town … he is not even mentioning Bais Yaakov that he endorsed, while r Soloveichik proposes a very specific training system for rabbis, streamlined to mass-produce rabbis that could lead American Orthodox communities. We can argue whether his plan was implemented and to what success, but it was a well defined plan _novel _ to address a real problem.
> , don’t project the world’s ignorance on to chazal and rishonim.
So, you are saying Shmuel knew how to run a steam engine, but chose to watch yidden working with donkeys instead? I think it is total apikoirosus to claim that chazal were so insensitive to human condition.
> The rambam, as it happens, does mention not to eat fatty or sugary foods
That said, fat is only bad because we learned how to get too much of it. Most people in old times would benefit from extra fat. What would Rambam do in our days? I think he would be in medical school, after learning nuclear physics.what – davening without a jacket is also asur?
Avira > do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars?
This is actually a great way to look at thing. You are paraphrasing Pascal wager – finite v infinite risk. For example, would you risk cutting off another car, risking that the driver is say an orphan or a widow, or any women, and she gets upset, an her prayer against you will be answered immediately. Obviously, no yareh shamaim will take such risk, QED.
> do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars?
maybe I missed the answer to the question – can I just take the jacket off for davening?
> the center stage is the regular people’s by design.
> current or next rebbe. He said it is us, all Jews, the observant and the not-yet observant.
So turns out , most of us here were Chassidim to begin with. So it seems that L Rebbe decided that he educated his students enough to be self-responsible.
Gadol > have at least TWO living Rebbes
Even better, have three, and make them not related to each other so that it will be a proper beis din
> one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered
technical question: wears during davening or in general? if the former, try davening in your shirt. If a suit is Yehareg V’al Ya’avor in your kahal, at least diversify and wear suits from different manufacturer on different days.
>> How many suits of yours have been found to have shatnez?
> As for how common it is, it’s happened to me personally a few times.examples from checkers are of course are not a statistics, even if they are most kosher. And we have here people from different places. Could you try to quantify how many of how many suits had it, was it vadai or sofek, and what was the source of the beged. Maybe we can see the picture better then.
I dont know what will be a cutoff for checking something, but products can vary a lot. For an easy to see problem, bug in salad – it depends what store you are buying it from, where and how it was grown, how it was processed, etc. So, some people may encounter them daily may not understand those who never saw them and vice versa
I like the appointment idea. In yerusha, every yid has someone to inherit him, going up the family tree. So, for L there should be a kapustin or some other cousin rebbe somewhere. He doesn’t need to do it full time, just resolve major machlokets
never mind that the yeshiva itself is a branding success. Is my local yeshiva similar to Volozhin or Pumbedita? Same as Pudonk state university is a university like Cambridge or Sorbonne.
> it was a glatt place,
how is it a glatt place if the service is not smooth? And it is relative – maybe it is not customers who are cheap, but the food that is expensive.
> violate the Board of Health rule
you got me here. Maybe do it under the table?
> he was no longer welcome there in spite of his protest that he was merely following the gemera.
well, your friend should not go to treifa places. If they do not follow gemora in this, what other halochos they might disregard !?
gadol, it is a free market choice how to structure payments. If owner is not paying anything at all to the waiter, then the waiter could tell the customer – pay me or serve yourself, and customer can decide either way.
bad communications between all sides is a separate issue not affecting the business model itself.
some of college numbers are complicated. Here is directly from 2021 census Educational Attainment in the United States: 2021
25 to 34 year old, both men/women
bachelor and higher 41%
at least 2 years of college 59%
high school or less 27%
high school or less for all ages: men are slightly behind 29% women 26%Census gov Table 2. Percent of the Population with a Bachelor’s Degree or Higher by Sex and Age, for the United States: 1940 to 2000
1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000
Male 25 to 29 years 6.9 9.6 14.4 19.5 23.6 21.7 24.7
Female 4.9 5.9 7.8 13.3 20.5 22.4 29.7also choose your area
Geographic area 1980 1990 2000
MALE ONLY all ages
..West Virginia 12.1 13.7 15.6
..Alabama 17.0 20.5 23.2..New York 24.6 29.8 33.9
..New Jersey 25.7 31.7 35.9
..Maryland 28.1 33.7 37.9DaMoshe > you ignored my last point – what about paying tuition?
tuition may be a problem in mixed areas where working families are forced to pay more. But in areas where everyone has same lifestyle, nobody is robbed, except possibly children. Even in mixed areas, many are forced to teach in lieu of tuition. Again, nobody loses except children and taxmen.
relying on welfare and other transfer payments, even single mother programs seems like a bigger problem. Of course, the more such programs become mainstream, the harder it is to figure out what is ok. “free” food, for example, became pretty popular.
PS I dont ask children to thank me for providing them with food and clothes, but when they mention about something they got at school for “free” via a gov program, I insist on a “thank you to me for that”. Some did not get it first why they need to thank the taxpayer.
seems that linen can be identified by burning and fiber structure under microscope
take known linen and study how it burns and looks, then compare w other fabricsFound a quote from r Belsky on torah org saying that modern customary tips are obligatory and one should even give to tochacha to others for creating hillul Hashem. He refers to gemora megilla about tipping innkeepers during regalim
Cs, where is your derech eretz, you don’t need to tell that, just leave a big chunk of your steak there.