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n0 > also advocate for better uses of time in general
this is true. Also important what is the trade off between. I believe (meaning read something, but did not check) that there is a general decline in teenage crime & pregnancies attributed to teens spending times on the phone instead of in malls & gangs.
n0, this is exactly what “indirect” elections are. Baalei batim direct their effort in certain direction and it indirectly affects Rabonim they do not control directly. Same, as a FCC or CDC chief may affect you iwth their decisions, but you have no _direct_ impact on their election, but do have indirect through all other elections you participated in.
This is not my idea, actually but a retort I got from a Talmid Chacham yearss ago. He was teaching about certain historical change in Ashkenazi teshuvos from business ethics towards pot-and-pan kashrus. So I asked what I thought was a sharp question – “so it is _your_ fault?”. He retorted – “No, it is _your_ fault”.
> they just value our religion less.
not sure I am reading this right, given unclear “we” and “they”, but whatever group it is – this “value our religion less” shows unusual capability of reading people’s hearts and minds. Are you counting value by money spent on lulav? yeshiva? by money not earned by not working productively? by spending more effort on learning? on chesed? on mesiras nefesh confronting sonei yisroel? so many factors and you figured out all of them just by looking at someone’s jacket? Hope I am misreading this.
GadolHadofi, thanks for the correction! Your version appears to be right. I definitely heard R Ouerbach, maybe my source confused kol vekol and added the name.
We definitely need to keep the right track of the yeshiva from where Moschiach will come!
YG > -My rebbe attended a very prestigious modern day yeshiva.
I was not doubting your rebbe’s education, just bringing good sources to support the practice. As R Avigdor Miller writes: European yeshivas had less people than now, but better education
So, it seems we identified the most difficult issue: will people accept a Moschiach from another group? What happens when Hashem sends him and he is not accepted?
Maybe we should start working on the achdus then rather than pushing for specific candidates and disparaging the ones we disagree …
R Kamenetsky also thought about it when he remarked in R Auerbach’s yeshiva that Maschiach is going to come from that yeshiva because they had top shiurim in Ivrit instead of Yiddish and thus making it accessible to non-Ashkenazim. Obviously, he meant that achdus is a prerequisite at least
for the M/ himself,, but maybe he meant that a Sephardi with Ashkenazi learning would qualify and get everyone’s respect?R Steinsaltz offered a more conservative “rely on Hashem” solution: he used to say that we mis-understand Gemora that if all Rabbis of one generation daven on the same street of Yerushalaim, M will come … it means that only when he comes, they all be able to daven together.
A final thought – maybe having M b Yosef and b David is to soften some of these acceptance issues? Yosef and David are abotu different styles of leadership, after all. So, maybe one will be moderni, one charedi, or one sephardi, one – Asheknazi, one – litvishe, one – chasidishe
so, if your preference is charedi/ashkenazi/litvishe, you may accept if at least 1 of the 2 is moderni/ashkenazi/litvishe or charedi/ashkenazi/chasidic or charedi/sephardi/litvishe
> The opinions of ordinary people will not count, not at all.
This is not correct. Jews have indirect electoral system:
People hire local Rabbis in a shul, support local schools, ask shailos and send their children and shekels to yeshivos. They also visit Rebbes and bring donations.
Local rebbes, melameds send their shailos and children to Talmidei Chachamim they consider best in learning and middos.
Eventually, this affects who is writing teshuvos, determines school curriculum, and becomes member of Meoetzes and Sanhedrin. Could a Talmid Chacham, like Rogachover, be recognized even if ordinary people do not appreciate him? yes, but only if other “accepted” TCim recognize him.
fallsburger > The secular world understands ad hominem attacks?
of course, you are right about average behavior. MSNBC and Foxnews comments ain’t better than YWN. But WSJ (sometimes) are. When Gemora says “yesh chochma b’goyim” did not mean that any drunk in the street is worthy listening to. When Rambam learnt Aristotle, he did not mean that any Greek is worth reading.
What SQRT means, I think, that we can find examples of people having proper behaviors and they are worth emulating.
Avram, thanks for correcting. Last “inappropriate” on discussions with Hashem was meant to be opposite, of course. R Yohanan’s remark to Resh Lakish seems to be inappropriate given that it lead to death and insanity of both … If there are other opinion, I’ll be happy to listen.
1a2b3c, thanks for the brochos!
This is a good example how ad hominems start – you see one typo or unclear thought (and there are lots of them in an informal formal) – and make assumptions about the person you do not know personally. If you were to hear the same from your hevrusa, you would just correct him without thinking much. Humanity will eventually develop better attitudes towards online discussions. As an example, I see my kids easily doing quality shopping online. They quickly take review in – which ones are fake, which ones are by not knowledgeable or stable people, etc.
We have an example of this in Hagada: both chacham and rasha say lachem “to you”. Difference is that chacham’s other words are respectful and knowledgeable. I would not be surprised that chacham would get dental injuries in a modern online forum.
Yeshivaguy > if a 9th grader would come to ask a 12th grader a question in learning or in hashkofah, the 12th grader would answer him warmly and cordially, being friendly.
I believe this is how Volozhin and maybe other early yeshovos operated, with Rabonim running major shiurim and after that older students helping younger ones. They did not have a full staff of babysitters.
well put, especially for online discussions. There is even less to gain here by questioning someone motives and putting people down, so we will be better served by responding to the logic.
That said, ad hominems got a bad name, especially in modernity, as so many people conduct baseless attacks on their opponents in the “free speech”/”everything goes” environment.
How do Jews deal with it? On one hand, we generally avoid ad hominems against Talmidei Chachomim – a lot of Gemorah discussions are based on someone reporting what he heard from his teacher’s teacher – and integrity of that is not questioned. On the other hand, we clearly check integrity of a witness, and discard his opinion when he is shown to be not kosher – especially
if his behave is trief in the area that is being discussed.an example of inappropriate ad hominem – R Yohanan commenting on Resh Lakish’ knowledge of sword making. examples of inappropriate ad hominems – discussions (Avraham, Moshe) with Hashem, insisting that He should do according to what He promised.
Cheap ploy. Most people here expect Moschiach to come from a yeshivish or, ok maybe, a chasiddish community. So, his language will be according to the school he attended.
Of course, one could observe that Jewish leaders were always expected to communicate well with the world – from Moshe’s education in the palace to R Gamliel having 1000 Torah students and 1000 Greek students in his household … So, either Moschiach will have to come from YU or Lakewood needs to improve on Yinglish classes. Maybe, though, Moschiach will come from lepers in Rome as Gemora suggests, so maybe he’ll speak Italian with the Pope.
akuperma> since when do we vote? it isn’t an elected position
I think some vote is expected, if not for a specific person: First two kings were appointed by a Navi Shmuel, after people _elected_ to have a king. Previously, Shoftim were appointed by some or other body. So, at minimum, Jews need to consent to having a ruler with certain powers, and then delegate, in some Republican manner, the actual appointment.
> This is not my Beis Hamikdash. This is not my kibbutz goliyos.
This is a dangerous thing to say… Like some JEws complained tht Moshe was not giving them cucumbers, or Ezra taking them into a sakonah. How do we know what Hashem’s plans are, just because things are not going the way you would have done that.
Re; expanding territories: indeed, if Jews are legitimately settled in EY, they are entitled to protect themselves, including creating defensive borders. If Arabs did not attack, one could have argued that there was no basis for expanding.
Avira > We are definitely not bound by them in the wars of moshiach – how else is he supposed to fight them?
And that may be the point of the disagreement. Some claim – controversially of course, that Medina is Reishit Tzemichat Geulateinu, and you would agree that – according to their shita – fighting is appropriate. So, you feel strongly that Medina has no value, then it is possible that fighting is not OK (although the UN vote argument might still hold). Of course, this is, again, a circular argument as you brought shevuos to show that their policies are wrong…
Now, both sides can bring arguments whether Medina is Reshit or not, we will know at due time, so, literally, Teiku.
does blended whiskey count as two?
what is the minimum (and maximum) shiurim?if you are plowing a field, see people marching to Yerushalaim, you ask them and they say “to greet Moschiach” -finish plowing and go. So, speculation may be for those who are not doing anything else, which might be an aveira delaying Moschaich’s arrival.
PS Plowing is _not_ a recommended job l’hathila, a clean and easy job is preferred.
Shimon > remnant holdover from prewar Europe,
R Berel Wein similarly (but with slightly different emphasis) traces the way non-religious parties relate to datiim in Israel to the history of Jews under Russia, where Russian government forced kahal to be in charge of selecting who will be drafted into Russian army, leading to corruption of the kahal, bribery, oppression of orphans, leading to the strife and alienation between leaders of Jewish community and the “masses”.
Gemora has a lot of conditions that describe Talmidei Chachamim, such as “merabim shalom b’olam”.
If you dismiss these issues just because other people are worse or “they started first”, seems like you are treating “yeshiva” as just “my team”, which kind of misses the point. Rav Salanter was holding the opposite: if a professor in Paris is spouting apikorosus, it means we in the yeshiva are doing something wrong.
> Let those who are fully able to do this mitzva properly do it without being told off or prevented in any way. And if you can’t handle alcohol, then stop pretending
Well, who is deciding whether the person is able to do it properly? Surely, someone who already decided that majority of poskim approve of this and reads MB accordingly is in the best control of his faculties to make the evaluation. As R Twersky writes – smarter alcoholics are hard to cure as they are good at coming with tirutzim justifying their behavior.
Halocha thrives on creating objective measures that leave nothing to Yetzer Hara to hang on: arba amot, 50 amot, etc. I see above such an emerging list – wine, at the end of seuda, being able to say birkat hamazon…
Police ask drunk drivers to say alphabet backwards and walk along a straight line. Maybe similar measures can be established? Recite mishnayos .. find Amalek posuk in Chumash
simcha> though I can’t say for sure if it’s my Yetzer Hara or my Yetzer Tov driving me
Both are OK, as long as you are not driving yourself.
It is ok to be ambivalent towards political movements, but that does not mean that you need to reject the good out there. One Rav told me that when someone asks him whether he is a Zionist, he refuses to say “no”. He says instead – yes, in the sense of “mehazir shechinato leZion”
Refuah Shleima!
Avira > they’re excluding themselves from the yeshiva worlds definition of the term gadol. So why are they upset when we don’t call them gedolim?
more true scotsmans here.
> there were gedolim who had positive views of the state early on, including the ponevezher rov. That doesn’t mean that they would say so now,
again. So, you easily presume that some “gedolim” were holding to their opinion due to the pressure of time. Then, others can say that Chazon Ish would change his opinion now, seeing how many kosher things happen in Israel. Your belief in daas Torah seems to be pretty shaky.
> But that view doesn’t mean that they believed in nationalism, or other foreign ideologies – they viewed the state as a Hatzolah, not as an ideal.
agree. And you deal with non-ideal reality, not withdraw from it. Jews are surrounding by “non-ideal” surroundings for centuries.
Avira > what we’re really saying is that to be a gadol beyisroel, one needs to be free of all foreign influence. One must have pure daas torah.
Please define what “free of foreign influence” is and what the source for that is. Was Rambam tainted by secretly reading Aristotle and studying Muslim science? Was Rabban Gamliel tainted by his atrsolobe and having 1000 members of his household studying Greek? Rav Salanter’s son was a mechanical engineer and an inventor and Rav was proud that he was able to re-engineer his son’s invention by seeing the drawings. Is mussar out now?
Avira > he said they’re real, and very important. And what he says fits into what the “derech moshol” might mean in the iggeres, but in no way has any authority ever said that the shevuos just don’t matter, or we can disregard them because they’re “just agadeta”, again, whatever that means.
I think we now agree here that the shevuos are, on one hand, important and are there to guide our attitudes but, on the other hand, not simplistic halachik conclusion that any movement towards EY is verbotten unless it is fully in conformance with Beis Shammai. In fact, I recall Vilna Gaon’s commentary on Hagada HaLachma Ani is that Jews will first go to EY and only later become Bnei Chorin.
Des[ite some Rebbes here admiring themselves and their colleagues, there are, unfortunately, enough teachers who are suboptimal even in their sober state, kal vahomer drunk. I presume every Teacher who understands the challenge of his job would think thrice before diminishing his capacity. Maybe a better question would be a testimony of how gedolim behave on Purim. Chafetz Chaim? R Aharon Kotler? Rav Soloveichik? Rav Feinstein?
> NO gedolim whatsoever follow the Zionist/Mirachi/Daati Leumi/Modern Orthodox shittas
“No True Scotsman” fallacy.
> Do you deny the validity, importance or existence of the Rambam’s Igerres Teiman?
Avira just brought his Rebbe as an authority on this. Question him first.
Avira > I’ve heard a different reason from Rav Belsky, who said that the shvuous might not be a din, but they are a metzius … emulate yaakov avinu’s behavior with eisav before they met goyishe leaders
ok, this makes sense, not sure why this was not posted earlier! If this is a general approach of avoiding haughty behavior whether in EY or outside, I am totally on board. It is also in Beitza 25 – Hashem gave us Torah and derech eretz inside it to prevent us from overwhelming other nations (that is, their negative reaction to our hutzpah/azut is a problem for us and Hashem, but our azut is undesirable by itself and goyim need to live their life too in the eyes of Hashem).
But with this definition, state of Israel is no more a theological problem, but a practical problem on how to deal with their errors and excesses.
> Tappan Zee Bridge
Is it back already? I ended up in Vermont while looking for the sign.
Lie detector test is a good addition – “do you plan to cut social security”, “are billionaires at fault for everything” … but I believe best liars pass it with flying colors.
This is not a big stretch, btw, no legislation required, just a private initiative. Maybe YWN can organize a debate and add these rules.
The only downside is that Indians and Chinese will have highest SAT scores. But we are not requiring them to get into Oxford, just an assurance that they can do basic math.
some strong points above!
1) Jews did not return to EY by force, this was immigration over decades, mostly with permission of the current authorities, and without weapons. Neighboring Arabs were not an authority, Brits under UN mandate were, thus UN vote seems like an authoritative call. As Avira says, when other countries attacked, self-defense seems legit
2) a letter to Teiman not making it into codices. How often do we have issues of such importance not making it into halakhic books? do we have examples?
so many good questions!
> drinking is a סרך איסור כרת?
surely, drinking leads to a lot of issurim. Read R Twersky’s books that our community is not immune to that.> can be an example of drinking the way as appropriate for yidden
this is a good idea and is very convincing – especially after a couple of shots! Do I think that when I drink l’chaim (and my neighbor joins me) and then I stop (and he does not), that he will feel an urge to stop when he seems me _walking_ home – or he might still get into his car? Absolutely! (not).> Fortunately, most who do drink, don’t drive and many don’t even have a car.
“Rov” is not good enough measure here. If we don’t do shofar on Shabbos because of someone who might carry it (even as the only ones without eruv are OOTers) – might think twice about drinking atmosphere that createsa permissive environment.> We have to worry that those who wear a sign saying I don’t drink on purim/I don’t get drunk on purim,
you might live in some liberal enclave that I am not aware of. Discussion is not about signs “I don’t drink” but rather about NOT having signs “I am drunk”.> It’s left a deep scar on his psych.
this is way worse than drinking.Kids say that Miami vacations are not cool anymore, Dubai is. So, when there will be a first Pesach hotel on moon and there will be a spirit flight there, the halachik solutions will follow.
Some problems will go away if you stay on a geo-stationary orbit, that is above a specific place on earth. Then, you can apply the times of the closest (Jewish) place on earth, same as you do above the polar circle.
> What did Mir do in Shanghai?
Learn?
Even experienced bikers get into accidents. Also, you are negatively affecting the Jewish people by using bike paths (or even worse, signing petitions to create new ones). You then force Yidden with kids in minivans to squeeze by in the remaining part of the road, leading to a lot of bitul Torah and mental aggravation from being locked up with the kids in traffic while you are enjoying your ride in gasoline-infested air.
Avram > ignores the reality of how smartphones and their apps are designed.
Indeed. I first got struck by that when I let my young kid to play an innocently-looking game, and we had to go somewhere, so I asked to play “until the end of this game”, and he replied – “what do you mean, this game does not end”… But this is also true to any other information source: we are currently at disadvantage: information holders, whether game, search engine, Russian hackers, computer shadchanim – all have information about large number of us and can tune their message to convince us.
I see an analogy here with 19th century disbalance between factory owners and workers, leading to a lot of turmoil in society. We eventually overcame this somehow, and not just by unionizing and killing factory owners, although that happened also. Same should happen with information holders – we should make ourselves smarter and stronger.
Avram > It’s already Adar where you are??
[After taking some time to consider the question] Yes.
While we should respect the elderly, we also need tests – and not just for elderly. Put them all through a battery of tests – IQ, SAT, LSAT, NYT crosswords – as a condition to participate in the debate. It is silly that we are selecting leaders of the free world with less information than the college gets about applicants.
Wolf, kol hakavod. We are not doing yevamos any more as we are not sure we are doing it “for the mitzva”. I am not sure I know people who drink “for the mitzva” also … Given what is going on in our society, not drinking is probably the right thing to do. Even if you personally think you can do it right, you are encouraging others and who knows where they stand.
The question is – what do you do with 4 cups on Pesach? This is a more restricted environment, so my objections above do not hold.
Baby > I see this as a waiting game
Yes, maybe more than just being a passive observer. Most of Tanach is about Jews fighting with each other for this thing or another, I don’t think there ever was an expectation that we should only live on EY and be brothers with other Jews only when everything is according to our favorite hashgoho. Even our most revered Kings were appointed after Shmuel castigated the Jews for their desire to appoint one.
> Israel has a world-class military, world-class firepower, and world-class trained soldiers. The Palestinians have old kalashnikovs, poorly trained fighters, and very little resources. No, it is not a neis nigleh that Israelis can trounce them.
Maybe the fact Israel has a world-class miitary is a neis nigleh?
“halacha was given with galus in mind, ” – where did it have in mind polar circle or southern hemisphere where seasons are upside down?
so, if we are supposed to do hishtadlus for frei yidden, then we probably should meet them where they are – and half of them are in Medinat Israel. Not sure then what “supporting medinah” mean v. other activities? None of us are voting in UN … many gedolim support voting for various reasons …
does working and paying business count as “supporting”? Maybe you consider paying taxes to “medinah” an aveira and prefer to avoid those, or allow taking their money because you will be a better judge of how to use it? I don’t see how this is different from getting into a business partnership with some frei Yidden – I presume you should respect common interest and be an honest partner, while still protecting your keeping shabbos and all. Do you have classical sources how to behave in such partnership?
Gittin 62 from another thread discusses minimizing saying shalom to non-Jews who work in EY during shemitah, maybe that can give some support to your position.
Seems like Gittin 62 revolves around this question – Rav Huna and Rav Ḥisda decide not to stand up for this Rav, who is BT, but still a baal machlokes, but then ask questions and listen to his divrei Torah.
Is it often that Resh Lakish would argue with R Yohanan on the basis of mesorah?
Seemingly, R Lakish has his mesorah _from_ R Yohanan, so he might argue based on his knowledge of how swords are made. Of course, one might read his story as he was a TC before becoming a gangster.
Also, note that R Yohanan “seduced” RL with the offer of his sister as a wife – and RL took him on the offer. Presumably, they waited for the chasaneh until RL showed that he is serious in his learning, so his learning did not diminish his interest in RY’s sister …
Of course, the simplest application of text learning is do the mod job. If the mods were to send me an archive of the posts they rejected, it should be possible to train a mod bot for at least some of that hard work.
Halakha adapted to a lot of things. We have so much of Torah relating to B’M, and we now live without it. Does it mean we need to strive to live on a planet with 7 moons? No, but if we end up there, we will figure out what to do. Maybe do rosh hodesh for each of the moons.