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DaasYochid,
Yes I do.
DaasYochid,
Thanks for the responses. I hope you and everyone else reading this have a wonderful Shabbos and Yom Tov.
oomis,
There are plenty of inexpensive TY notes or buy a pack of pretty paper(100 to the pack) and make your own. It does not have to cost much.
It really is NOT enough to say an obligatory thank you at the wedding especially when you have no idea what the gift is, until you open it.
Its not too much to ask them to show that they are makir tov.
I agree 100% with these points. The question is, however, if the giver did not receive a thank you card, should s/he dan l’kaf zechus/be mochel the recipient? Or should s/he consider it pure rudeness or unappreciative?
My point was that I don’t think the most likely reason in the majority of cases is rudeness or unappreciative feelings, but rather a lack of organization or carelessness. These are also faults, but perhaps less infuriating to the giver than straight up lack of appreciation.
DaasYochid,
I agree that it’s wrong because it involves melachah; I was still addressing your chilluk between the KosherSwitch and the Kosher Lamp.
So essentially your point (in contrast to mine) is that the only problems with the Shabbos switch are:
1. The act (flipping the switch and the resulting chain of events) itself is forbidden.
2. It could lead to other melachos being performed on Shabbos (e.g., flipping a Shabbos switch to turn on a teapot), whereas a Shabbos lamp has no such issues.
The issues of how it was marketed, or what intentions were behind its development, are irrelevant. Do I understand your position correctly?
DaasYochid,
I disagree. You wouldn’t have a lamp on if you couldn’t cover it, so the net gain is having light when you need it.
Yes, that is correct, and the way I said it incorrect. In my case, the light usually starts out uncovered (e.g., for reading) and is then closed for sleep, which is why I perceived that as the benefit. But if there were no Shabbos lamp, I’d have no light on in the room at all, so the true benefit is the light.
You may perceive the marketing as treating Shabbos as an inconvenience, and maybe that’s indeed the (very distasteful) marketing strategy,
Just out of curiosity, if you are familiar with the marketing that has been used, do you disagree that it treated Shabbos as an inconvenience?
but the product itself can just as easily be used “to bring us additional delight and comfort on Shabbos”.
In what way can that be so, other than providing the “delight and comfort” that only a melacha would accomplish?
Git Mishige,
DaasYochid, if you help someone switch their flat tire and the guy drives off without saying thank you, would it bother you?
Apples and oranges. There are many potential reasons that a thank you card didn’t come in the mail, but very few reasons someone wouldn’t verbally say “thank you” if you helped them change their flat tire. Also, the flat tire is one person doing an extended kindness, whereas thank you cards are a situation where many people are doing a kindness all at once.
It seems that in todays day and age things are taken for granted and sheer manners is lacking, starting with yourself
That comment lacked manners as well.
Being dan l’kaf zechus does not mean that if you fail to receive a thank you note, you have to pretend that the person sent it, but it got lost in the mail or abducted by aliens. It means realizing that people are human beings and make mistakes, and there could be a myriad of reasons that you don’t know about.
For example, the recipient may have a great sense of hakaras hatov, but poor organizational skills, and lost his or her list of gifts and givers. Or they accidentally checked your name off the “note sent” list. Or didn’t keep good enough track of who sent what from the get go. Or mis-attributed your gift to someone else (FYI – I once received a thank you note for a gift that I did not give, which means someone else didn’t receive a thank you note for that gift!).
Are these things mistakes and wrong for someone to do? Yes! But perhaps they are more forgivable faults than an assumption of straight-up rudeness. Should the recipient(s) keep better track of gifts and work harder to show their appreciation? Yes! But can you stand up and say that you are superhuman and have never, ever let anyone down? Being dan l’kaf zechus in this case perhaps isn’t about absolving someone of guilt, but of realizing that they are human, made a mistake, and weren’t out to get you. And that they would have sent you a card had they not been encumbered by their human faults.
Note carefully in all of this that I am not advocating for neglecting thank you notes.
oot for life,
In light of the hubub surrounding the “shabbos switch,” all halachic musings aside, the hashkafas that would allow such a thing to even be thought of should be concerning.
I agree, the notion in the advertisements for the switch that Shabbos was an inconvenience was disturbing to me.
For example, I just received an advertisement for the latest and greatest Shabbos Lamp. As far as I know most people use them, maybe I’m wrong, but maybe we’ve made Shabbos so convenient and so accepted that its not such a stretch that someone would develop something like the shabbos switch.
Then again I don’t know were to draw the line, crockpot, hotplate? Timers in general.
I think there is a distinction between the notion of enhancing Shabbos or making Shabbos activities convenient, which is not problematic at all, and viewing Shabbos itself as inconvenient because we cannot do melachos, and trying to find ways around that to do melacha-like things.
Crockpots/hotplates/blechs enhance Shabbos because they allow us to have hot food.
The Shabbos lamp enhances Shabbos because it allows us to block out light to help us sleep.
These things have nothing to do with the fact that we are forbidden to do melachos on Shabbos. They are simply 100% permissible ways to bring us additional delight and comfort on Shabbos.
The Shabbos switch, on the other hand, is an attempt to “kasher” a melacha on Shabbos, because it’s so “difficult” to have to go without flipping lights on and off on Shabbos.
It’s a subtle difference, but a big one.
apushatayid,
“its only baalei teshuva who text on shabbos.”
Huh?
I suspect that was a sarcasm fail on the part of oot for life.
WolfishMusings,
How would you have recognized me?
Given what happened when a coyote was spotted near Battery Park, I guess she’d know you were at the park by the tremendous police response.
DaMoshe,
I also doubt that tzius was taught/enforced the way it is today.
In my mind, there is a sharp distinction between a school environment and the rest of the world. Everything that you are describing below is apparently happening within a school environment, and it is not unique to Jewish schools, but any school with uniforms or a dress code policy (which includes public schools). Perhaps the only unique aspect to it is that it is being labeled tznius.
There weren’t teachers with rulers measuring how far below the knee a girl’s skirt was reaching.
This was done in my public school when I was young. The standards weren’t the same, of course, but there was a code and it was enforced.
They probably didn’t have rules about how a girl should tie back her hair.
I’m sure many schools did. My public school certainly did for certain circumstances.
No rules on what color clothes girls should wear.
At the public school I attended, clothing with words or logos were not permitted. Other schools require uniforms. I don’t see why this is a knock.
The chumros just keep piling up, and it turns people off to the whole concept.
I don’t see these as chumros, just school standards. Perhaps the schools should describe their standards as relating to the school environment itself (e.g., this is what we require girls who attend our school to wear, and by the way it is a good example of dressing b’tznius).
Hi ColombianJew,
I did take the time to read your post. What question are you posing specifically to the CR? None of us here would have as much knowledge about your case as the people you have already asked.
Are you a practicing Orthodox Jew currently? I know there are a lot of difficult emotions involved with this, but if I were in your shoes, I would ask myself if I were comfortable with my status being uncertain in many places. I personally would not be comfortable with that, and would probably ask the CRC something similar to:
Worst case scenario, both my mother’s and my conversions were invalid, and I am not halachically Jewish, although for most of my life I believed I was Jewish. I consider myself an Orthodox Jew, and fully intend to keep the mitzvos and serve Hashem. What is the best way to resolve this? Would this course of action change if those previous conversions were potentially valid?
coffee addict,
i hope you’re joking, all those boys that finish mishnayos for their bar mitzvah don’t become closer to Hashem?
RebYidd23 was quoting a translation of Igros Moshe that Joseph posted several years ago. And I think Rav Moshe was directing those comments towards the over-the-top bar mitzva celebrations, not the bar mitzva itself.
scared driver delight,
Joseph has it right. It’s intuitive.
While you are correct that our day starts in the evening, with ma’ariv as the first tefilla of the day, ma’ariv usually follows closely after mincha. So although mincha technically is the final tefilla of the day and ma’ariv the first of the next day, it makes it easier for us to find ma’ariv if it’s right after mincha in the siddur. Shacharis comes first in the siddur, because that’s the first tefilla you do after a long break (sleeping), when you have probably put the siddur away and then taken it back out. Again, it makes it easier to find.
gavra_at_work,
but you should recognize that any of your points will not make a dent into the problem.
I disagree. As long as the weddings are viewed positively by chosson and kalla and their families, and guests are given the impression that the intimacy and modesty were by design and valued, not forced by budget constraints, all it would take would be a handful of such weddings to begin changing the culture. Attendees would leave with an enhanced sense of what community weddings are like. Future families will then see it as a viable option, not a “nebach” one.
gavra_at_work,
So you accept the status quo.
Fallacy of the excluded middle. Just because I disagree with your draconian ideas doesn’t mean I fail to see a problem with the current situation.
The poor among us should not just be helped to get by, but should be raised to the level of everyone else who helps pay for it. This is not a Torah concept, but a bleeding heart liberal one.
Ah, so that’s what this is about. Does Torah inform your political views, or do your political views inform your views of Torah? In sefer Devarim (15:8), Rashi notes: ??? ???? ??: ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the community should make a poor man rich, or ensure that he has a lavish wedding, but rather a wedding that leaves him and his kalla with a sense of dignity. We can certainly state that our current societal standards are way out of whack and work to change them (I agree completely with that), but that’s not the poor man’s fault.
gavra_at_work,
the only way to stop it (unless you have another idea) is to stop funding it, and use the money to support local Yeshivos (which is the Halacha in any case).
No, I don’t think a Chinese style cultural revolution against lavish weddings would be very productive at anything except marginalizing an already vulnerable segment of our communities.
I do have other ideas:
1. Education – teach children the value of homemade goods, quality over quantity, counting blessings, and even modest weddings. That way, when they are getting married, they will desire and appreciate a modest wedding.
2. Go out of your way at a modest wedding to tell the bride and groom and the families how much you enjoyed yourself, and how beautiful everything was. Be earnest and honest.
3. Speak to your rabbi about the issue, maybe he’ll do or say something about it.
4. Speak to your friends about the issue. The more people hear it, the more “normal” it becomes.
5. If you have the merit of making a wedding, make it modest and be very open and proud about it. Even if you could afford something bigger.
RebYidd23,
Yeah, those silly humans with their societies and all.
gavra_at_work,
The key word is “normal”. Who defines that? Certainly 50 years ago none of this was “normal”.
It sounds like you have a problem with the cultural norms, and that is fine. I think a lot of people agree with you. Is castigating the poor who ask for money so that they don’t feel inadequate due to these cultural norms really the best way to deal with the problem, however?
Patur Aval Assur,
You are, after all, asserting the existence of something beyond human comprehension which pretty much makes it undiscussable. What you are essentially saying is that it is because it is and you just have to accept it even though it can’t be explained.
Yes, I think this is a good summary of my position, although I do think that there are “projections” of the incomprehensible into the comprehensible (i.e., the Torah, Beis Hamikdash, prophets), which makes it possible to believe yet still be rational. Our ability to see these “projections” has been greatly reduced due to golus, however.
So would you agree with this summary:
Patur Aval Assur: There is a conundrum etc. etc.
Avram in MD: There is an answer.
I think that is a good summary.
In fact I commend you for actually putting thought into, and composing lengthy responses
Thank you, that is very kind. And thank you for engaging patiently in this debate; I find/found it quite interesting.
Git Meshige,
Could a Nazi style party ever rise to power in the US, thereby paving the way for another Holocaust C”V, and what is the likelihood of it happening?
Heaven forbid. Anything is possible, but I think an exact parallel to Nazi Germany is unlikely in the U.S. I worry more about parallels to the Greek oppression during the time of Bayis Sheini, where mitzvos became targets. Two examples:
1. Cultural views of circumcision in the U.S. are changing rapidly for the negative. This could CV”S lead to legislation in the future that restricts or effectively bans halachic bris mila (e.g., minimum age requirements, procedural limitations, etc.).
2. Animal rights and environmental activism may lead to a culture shift away from eating meat or towards “ethical” consumption. Based on what we’ve seen in the past, kosher slaughter is often disproportionally singled out by groups such as PETA. This is already happening in Europe (e.g., requiring “not stunned” labels).
Patur Aval Assur,
It seems we have now circled back to the beginning.
Wheeeeeee!
my contention, though, is that it doesn’t make it more lofty.
Nope. You just wrote,
it might be true that there are reasons that transcend benefit
And if a person acts because of a natural drive that transcends benefit, that is more “lofty” than if a person acts because of a natural drive for benefit.
Patur Aval Assur,
we can also do things for the same non-benefit reason Hashem does things for, even if we don’t know what it is.
I would go a bit further than that and say that we are driven to do things for the same non-benefit reason Hashem does things for, even if we don’t know what it is. Not just that we can do things for those reasons.
My response to that is that it might be true that there are reasons that transcend benefit, but you haven’t given a reason why someone should do something for such a reason.
Your question is a non sequitur. You are asking me to describe a non-benefit reason in terms of a benefit reason. If, however, we are motivated to act because we are created b’tzelem Elokim, then “why” is irrelevant anyway. The relevant question becomes, “why would you not”?
cherrybim,
If you are not going repudiate lies and attacks, then I won’t waste my time.
If I see any lashon hara directed towards the frum Jews of New York themselves, then B”N I will repudiate it.
I’ll meet you even further and say that I disagree with some of akuperma’s contentions regarding New York because they were inaccurate, but I don’t think they were lashon hara. But since you think that it’s not even ok to say anything negative about the area where frum Jews live, why are you enthusiastically participating in the Baltimore bashing?
Is it my imagination, or is it true that just about every Rav and Posek and Jewish leader in Balimore was brought up in communities outside of Balimore.
What does this demonstrate other than that Baltimore is a younger and smaller community than New York?
Joseph,
Avram: Is comparing the positives of each okay?
Why not? I even personally don’t have a problem with comparing the negatives of each; I just objected to lashon hara against the frum Jews of Baltimore themselves.
As for your other questions, I don’t think anyone would argue with the fact that Brooklyn’s Jewish infrastructure is far more extensive than any other frum community’s in the U.S.
cherrybim,
Show me one post from this thread where somebody bashed New York’s frum community.
cherrybim,
Interesting; I came to the defense of Brooklyn in response and after we were attacked by akuperma as per his post shown below:
I will try to make myself more clear. If you want to say that Baltimore is an undesirable location because of crime, lack of frum political representation, lack of busing for Yeshiva students or whatever, I have no problem with that. We can agree or disagree, debate it, and at the end of the day, we’d both be right about some things and wrong about some things. Those topics (crime, politics) are all that akuperma wrote about New York. You, however, went much further than that and said that there is sinas chinam and lashon hora in Baltimore, which is a strike at the frum Jews who live there, not just the place itself. That’s what I am objecting to.
cherrybim and lesschumras,
Debate about crime, local politics, and inconvenience with respect to Baltimore vs. Brooklyn all you want, but to speak loshon hara against the frum community itself is crossing a line.
The Goq,
if that is proven true that will assuage the criminals err protesters
Unfortunately, the level of trust in the police is so low, it will probably inflame the situation even more with the police being accused of a cover up.
YW Moderator-42,
I don’t remember having so many people with this issue years ago. Is it a new thing? If so, what caused it? Vaccines?
I don’t think there is any one known answer, but here are some of the thoughts that I have had.
1. Better diagnosis of celiac as a cause for sickness
2. Due to increased screenings, celiac diagnoses being made even when symptoms are not present
3. Not related to celiac, in the past generation, added gluten has been used as a food additive (it makes breads rise better and yields a nice, chewy texture), so perhaps the increased amounts are resulting in increased sensitivity.
4. Perhaps some people are more sensitive to newer bred varieties of wheat.
5. Increasing self-diagnosing/misdiagnosing of gastro ailments as wheat sensitivity.
zahavasdad,
Do two wrongs make a right?
kj chusid,
How is burning a flag not considered chukas hagoyim?
DaasYochid,
I understand and agree, but I think popa_bar_abba was directing this thread specifically to those who are interested in seeking common ground. He’s directing the others here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-this-is-what-weve-been-waiting-2000-years-for/page/2#post-566799 🙂
DaasYochid,
I agree that the notion zahavasdad expressed was offensive, and derogatory, but why should we define that notion as the other side of popa_bar_abba’s “us” as opposed to, say, those who agree with Sam2’s responses?
owl,
The only proof is that a man started this foolish thread.
1. Are we definitely sure that Patur Aval Assur is a man?
2. If this thread is so foolish, why are you taking it so seriously?
Daniel Alievsky,
I’m not familiar with the area, but I think what you are describing is proper behavior for Jews. The Torah commands Jews to remain in their place over the Sabbath, so there are limits to how far outside of a town a Jew can walk. Additionally, one cannot carry outside of an eruv (the “invisible line” you describe), which would make long hikes in nature a challenge.
Patur Aval Assur,
My answer to that is that you are correct, male children are not ????, being that the liturgy says that ??? is ???? and as per the gemara in Yevamos, unmarried men are not ???.
So that would mean, according to your OP logic, that unmarried men are better than married men. And what is the difference between a married man and an unmarried man? Why, what a horrible thing to say about women, Patur Aval Assur!! 🙂
golfer,
Thank you, you understood and explained my sentiments exactly. I was responding to the question as phrased best I think by Syag Lchochma: how we can be sure someone is secure in their frumkeit, e.g., not going to “fry out”. This is universal, not just about BTs. I probably should have written that explicitly.
Joseph,
Ok, I can accept that. For what purpose did you make the extension in your original post at all, however?
Syag Lchochma,
If you want to discuss it respectfully as a concept, then ask how we can be sure someone is secure in their frumkeit if they are new and being considered for marriage.
This is absolutely the way to go about this discussion.
These are my thoughts on the question.
1. Is he/she well integrated into a frum community?
2. Does he/she have an open relationship with a rav, and feel comfortable bringing shailos to a rav?
3. Can he/she separate Judaism from individual Jews, so that cv’s an encounter with a rude frum person doesn’t shake his/her beliefs to the core?
4. Does he/she have frum friends, or does he/she interact primarily with non-frum friends?
5. Is he/she comfortable with saying “I don’t know, I need to ask”?
If the answer is yes to these questions, then I don’t think there is any more “fry out” risk with the BT then there would be with anyone else.
Joseph,
I just asked that question without taking a position since I wasn’t sure which is the proper path.
A disingenuous response. You didn’t ask a question, you made a statement:
The same question can more or less be asked about every baal teshuva.
scared driver delight,
That does not say that a better driver and/or an extra-alert driver need to adhere to such a suggestion.
So poor or distracted drivers should adhere to the posted speed limit (e.g., 25mph).
Better drivers or drivers who gulped 15 Starbucks can do 35.
How fast can awesome drivers go?
scared driver delight,
But to suggest a safe speed along a street has no point?
I think the yellow signs are primarily intended for short distance situations where the ability to enforce is limited and the speed reduction is temporary. It’s different from a straight thoroughfare.
So, if I understand your argument correctly, a “suggested” speed of 25/35mph is appropriate for Coney Island Ave, but ticketing/fining people is inappropriate unless they are really flying? If you feel that there is a reasonable speed that is in excess of the limit, then why would you consider the limit to be a “great suggestion”?
scared driver delight,
So you tell me, what’s the point of yellow speed limit signs?
Usually to suggest a safe speed along a small distance sharp curve, such as a freeway entrance/exit ramp.
lesschumras,
First, the caregivers are forbidden to disclose any information ( HIPAA rules ) about their medical care
I don’t think a mamin was intending to poll the caregivers.
and ,second, perhaps Mr Sasoon, the only person legally allowed to disclose any information, would prefer to protect their privacy
This is possible, and if so, nobody would have any information. I don’t think a mamin was intending to invade their privacy in any case.
scared driver delight,
Going 36 mph on a Brooklyn street is very unticketable. A speed limit underneath that is a great suggestion, but it most certainly shouldn’t be enforced.
What would be the point of a speed limit that is not enforced? BTW – speed limits on yellow signs are suggestions, but white signs are the law.
it would mean that the camera takes pictures of speeding vehicles going over 35 mph and [the city] fining them.
I didn’t realize that the OP was already adding 10mph the speed limit to state the ticketing threshold. Still doesn’t make sense to me, but my mistake.
scared driver delight,
a speed limit of 35 mph on a side street isn’t so unreasonable. Getting a ticket for going above that is unreasonable.
Wait, what?
Are you contending that it is unreasonable to enforce speed limits?
Avrom in MD-you misread the OP. He said you get a ticket for going above, not that that’s what the limit is.
The OP wrote:
equipped with a camera taking pictures of speeding vehicles going over 35 mph and fining them.
For that sentence to make any sense, the speed limit would have to be 35mph. I do not believe I misread anything.
yayin yashan bkli chadash,
35 mph isn’t quite speeding like a meshugana.
The posted speed limit is 35mph, according to the OP. Therefore, to be speeding, a car would have to be exceeding 35mph. Usually ticketing is triggered once a vehicle is going 5-10mph over the limit, so we are talking about 40-45mph minimum on a crowded urban thoroughfare.
147,
like we Australian Jews
Australian?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/schlissel-challah#post-565374
akuperma,
If you don’t make peace with the Muslims, then the Jewish community in Eretz Yisrael is doomed.
It takes two sides to make peace. No matter how much one side wants to make peace and gives things up for it, if the other side’s goal is not peace, then there can be no peace.
The hareidi solution (surrender and stop trying to control the government and stop trying to rule the Muslims) offers a realistic chance.
Who would you surrender to?
Depends on the building in question?