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“again you respond to a reasoned sourced statement, with your own unsourced personal opinion”
Except for two Rabbonim, the other poskim that were listed as assiring, indeed did NOT assir.
Since the status quo was that kosher fish did not need b’dika, any posek or kashrus agency that does assir now, ipso facto is matir, until such time that they explicitly assir.
Read the previous posts.
“determination of majority is based on “local”.”
What are you talking about?
If one asked his Rav a shaila concerning the fish worm and he did not assir; don’t you think he would have said that it’s a safek d’oiraisa and you need to be machmir? Don’t you think that the vast majority of American Rabbonim and Poskim and Admorim; if they felt you were right, would hold that it’s a safek d’oiraisa and would paskin to be machmir?
But that’s not the case, so obviously you need to stop darshening and seek the real reason why the vast majority of American Rabbonim and Poskim and Admorim do not assir and hold that the status quo prevails at this point.
Wrong again.
“an individual can choose.”
An individual can choose if his regular rav/posek does not assir.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but Hello and Daas can explore all they want; there are great poskim on both sides and like the water filter disagreement, an individual can choose.
The fish issue will probably come up in the shidduch frumkeit questions as well, and will be another item to explore.
See earlier post:
What in the article which was posted earlier makes you say that?
What do people do with the Shabbos food if it’s not eaten on Shabbos?
Shabbos should be different and enhanced. How the Shabbos table is treated is an indication of your kavode Shabbos. A white linen cloth, dishes and glass/silverware makes the table sparkle. And the seuda is different. Yes, it’s more work but Shabbos gives us so much more.
“someone questioning Rav Karp’s knowledge of how anisakis works”
It’s on the tape that was introduced to the thread by Kasha. Not everyone understands Yiddish.
“Rav Karp discusses prohibition against worms:”
This is the tape of Feb. 18th in which Rav Moshe Karp of Eretz Yisroel expressed his position in Yiddish at a Brooklyn gathering.
EDITED
“I personally witnessed a local proprietor directed to remove any fish not on Rav Bess’s approved list”
Directed by Rabbi Luban?
“I personally know of a specific local Vaad HaKashrus headed by a leading member of the OU that does not permit infested fish….Rabbi Luban”
How do you know that Rabbi Luban holds that the fish is treif?
Got my vote, c’mon everyone it takes a minute and you help out a yid. Definitely a mitzvah.
“Firstly” and “Secondly”
Surprised you said.
Firstly, when it comes to halacha and the rabim, the OU and Rav Belsky know that ultimately they are responsible only to Hashem and would not mislead anyone if they felt the halacha was otherwise. There are many ways to save face if that’s a concern; just look at the posters in the CR, they are the best at that.
Secondly, as someone indicated earlier, “heard it from somewhere” doesn’t cut it in halacha. It’s like saying that the hashgacha on a restaurant is “everyone eats there”.
“more recent than three months ago?”
Do you want poskim to validate their p’sak daily or weekly?
The OU site affirms its policy and is current. The OU informs consumers immediately concerning alerts or changes.
“I don’t know what you see there, that isn’t even the link to the Kashrus department of the OU”
I see at least a dozen links to the OU Kashrus Department on the OU WEBSITE: http://www.ou.org
From OU WEBSITE:
http://www.ouradio.org/index.php/ouradio/comment/9742/
Also see below:
OU Policy on Worms in Fish – 29 Adar 5770 – March 15, 2010
By Rabbi Chaim Goldberg
Recently there has been considerable discussion about worms in fish. Some Rabbonim understand the halacha (as formulated in Shulchan Aruch) to be that worms which hatch in the flesh are permitted, while worms that are swallowed whole and enter the viscera are prohibited.
Both of the worms migrate to the flesh. Based on this understanding these Rabbonim have stated that today, worms in fish are prohibited. This is because scientists maintain that contemporary worms known as Anisakis enter the flesh through the viscera and then migrate to the flesh. This is not a new issue and the question has been raised repeatedly in recent years. The OU has reviewed this matter and found it not to be an issue.
[Chulin 67B]
Rav Belsky further feels that it is irrelevant whether the tolaas entered from the viscera or from some other way, whether it happened when the fish was alive or after it died. As proof, he notes that S.A. (ibid) says that tolayim which come after the death of the fish are permitted. Rav Belsky felt these tolayim must have come from the viscera, because there was no other reasonable source for tolayim entering a fish after death and yet they are permitted.
Some are concerned that the tolayim found in the flesh are actually the forbidden tolayim originally found in the viscera (Shulchan Aruch forbids the tolayim found in the viscera). Rav Belsky felt this claim is not based on any significant research. Rav Belsky felt that his own inquiries from qualified experts indicate that the opposite is true, and that the tolayim in question are found in the flesh while it was alive. Furthermore, Rav Belsky feels even tolayim entering the flesh from the viscera would be permitted as per above.
[halachically invisible]).
“while Rav Belsky personally is mattir it is NOT OU policy”
Go to http://www.ou.org
“he says he spoke to the head of the COR which frequently consults with Rav Miller, who assurs, and the COR is currently investigating the prevalence of anisakis”
You can do all the lomdus you want with regard to this issue, kol hakavod. But Halacha is far too serious for your determining a p’sak by third degree implication, and investigating does not amount to a p’sak of treif.
I have been using oil for our Shabbos table for many years as it’s a hidur mitzva to use olive oil (heard from Rav Sheinberg).
I have had wonderful results using the stiff wicks(medium to large) that are placed in the hollow metal shaft holders (used for the Chanukah menorahs). The flame never drops down and is always brightly visible no matter how much oil is in the cup and never an odor.
Actually water enhances the flame which is why it’s brought down in the sfarim.
First arrange these wicks in the cups; they will protrude a bit over the shaft. Pour the oil into the cups and over the protruding wicks (so that your initial burning is oil). Light one wick and IMMIDIATELY pour in the water to about a quarter inch below the flame, or to the level you desire (the flame gets brighter as the water level rises) and continue this way until all are lit.
“I’m under the impression that in Toronto, the COR follows R’ Shlomo Miller.”
Go on the COR site; many kashrus alerts and news items including fish. Not one mention of the fish worm issue. And no mention of Rav Miller.
“I personally know of a specific local Vaad HaKashrus headed by a leading member of the OU that does not permit infested fish.”
Who’s that?
The vast majority of local Vaad Hakashrus agencies in the United States follow the OU standards as stated in their by-laws. Anyone know about other countries?
So what’s new?
“But the topic of this thread was teen behavior”
Teen behavior does not just happen; it is a direct result of our own conduct.
Hefkeirus and lack of yiras shamayim by adults in some areas will breed hefkeirus in and lack of yiras shamayim by youngsters in other areas.
A kol korei only works if it’s a “lo plug”, no exceptions. Are you ready to give up wal-mart? If not, don’t expect the kids to.
Our young people’s behavior at mal-mart in the summer is reflective of the chillul Hashem behavior of their parents at this location.
eli lev – “if they had jobs they would have reason to daven earlier etc.”
If the bein hazmaners would daven at the early minyan, they might find businessmen there who would be impressed and willing to give a job to someone who shows that he is serious about life, even bein hazmanim.
Correction: Omitted Earth’s rotation…
In fact, Hashem created a completed mature world 6000 years ago which quite probably was millions of years old. Hashem didn’t create Adom as a baby or the trees as saplings but He created them complete and fully mature. So too the earth. We don’t know the intricacies of maise b’reishis. There are numerous questions when learning parshas b’reshis and the chachomim have advised us to just move on.
While chazal were b’keyim in Astronomy, it was from the perspective of an earthling and not from the perspective of telescopes in space.
And no matter how much you jump up and down and deny it, in gemara Sanhedren, which we in daf yomi just completed and in other places, it’s apparent that chazal were not privy to certain facts concerning the sun’s movement around the earth.
hereorthere – Chazal based many of their statements on observations and on the science available to them in their times. Chazal were not exposed to telescopes or microscopes or oceanic life or travel around the earth and were therefore handicapped in some of their knowledge base.
If you have a brain in your head, you know when chazal is exaggerating, and you don’t need confirmation.
eli lev – I think one most obvious chillel hashem occurs bein hazmanim when bochrim come home and set up a minyan which is somewhat later than the regular shul minyan. So when people are going to work, they see the first wave of these young fellows on their way to minyan. Employers want workers to come on time and work. Those who are dependent on jobs for parnossa are generally able to abide by this rule. What about the bein hazmaners?
“There can be no harmony when there are two commanders.”
What about four Roshei Yeshiva?
The smart wife will make her husband think that he has made the decision on his own, but actually she has guided him into making it.
I recall a very wise and saintly Jewish woman who owned a business on Avenue J. While she was the brains and ran the business, this elderly woman (widowed and remarried) insisted that the customers actually pay her husband for the merchandise so that he would feel important.
There are numerous sources that show the ecological cycle of the anisakids. For example:
From Science and Nature – Natural History of Anisakids:
To complete their life cycle, anisakid worms must pass through three very different hosts:
2. Inside the egg, a tiny larva undergoes a period of development before hatching. Eggs containing larvae, or hatched larvae, are eaten by tiny sea animals such as krill (shrimp-like crustaceans) as they sink toward the ocean floor or drift in the current. (Some are eaten only after settling on the bottom.)
5. If the fish dies, the capsule breaks down and the larva moves away from the place where it has lain dormant. If the fish has been eaten by another fish, the larva simply moves to a location in the new host and becomes dormant again. If the fish dies but is not eaten, the larva may move from the abdominal organs into the muscles. If the fish is eaten by a marine mammal, the larva breaks free in the stomach and develops to an adult worm.
6. Worms that reach adulthood and mate in the stomach of a marine mammal produce eggs that are released into the water to start the cycle over again.
7. Larvae that are accidentally swallowed alive by a human usually cannot mature but typically cause a painful illness called anisakiasis, or anisakidosis. (Anisakiasis refers specifically to infection with A. simplex; anisakidosis is a more general term meaning infection with one of the anisakid worms.) Anisakiasis was first diagnosed in the 1950s.
The larva’s ability to move within a dead fish, or from one fish to another has important implications for the spread of the parasite:
The largest whale, the blue whale, eats tons of tiny krill in a day.
My remarks above was not addressed to you squeak.
There is no comparison of the Czar’s Army to the American military. Serving in the Czar’s Army meant almost forever with no hope of remaining frum.
Nicely presented.
“Let’s avoid service, and let someone else take the hit.”
Hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers have given their up lives so that Americans can enjoy their freedom of religion, where laws protect us from discrimination and permit Jews to learn Torah and prey, and observe Shabbos and Yom Tov. It’s not perfect, but no other country in the history of the world has been so accommodating.
So let’s show our admiration and respect for the soldier rather than the scorn which is implied.
hello99 – “All 6 Rabbonim I mentioned have ruled that one may not consume anisakis, some vadai some safek, but agree it may not be eaten.”
You may not infer, or hear third hand, or assume a Rav’s psak din and state it as fact.
Your list is misleading and sheker.
Daas Yochid – “I wouldn’t recommend anyone believe anything seen from an anonymous source such as the YNW CR”
Apply this rule of yours to yourself. Why list these Rabbis and the claims when you have no first or second hand knowledge of how they paskin?
Daas Yochid – “but on a practical level, this still means that the tendency is still moving toward the assur side.”
100% wrong.
Daas Yochid – So you are having everyone believe that these Rabbonim that you just listed do paskin that the fish are treif? And are we to believe that everything you’ve stated is as true as this claim of yours?
hello99 – Please list the names of the American Rabbonim who you claim to vadai paskin the fish to be treif.
Daas Yochid – “The reason herring and whiting are mutor, I believe, is because the amount of worms found are minimal, so there is no miut hamotzui.”
Daas Yochid – “while the heter of the gemora/S.A. is that they are “mino gavli”.
Have you read the details of Rav Belsky’s psak or heard him explain his psak? If you did, it would answer your question concerning “mino gavli”.
Any of you experts know why the worms in herring or whiting are more kosher than the worms in cod which is the fish shown in the film?
How do you know? Have you interviewed these worms? When were they ok and when/why did they change? Do you have any proof to what you claim or are you only speculating?
torahyid – What chutzpa! How are you ever going to get m’chila for being m’vazeh a tzadik and one of the greastest g’dolim in Torah in many generations. Yom kippur is not m’chaper for this type of aveira.
hello99 – Watch what your implying; your comments are reminiscent of when PETA filmed the shchita process at the Rubashkin plant. After the film was shown, the amharatzim were crying that shchita is tzar bal chai, cruelty to animals, and that shchita should be banned.
All the great poskim and g’dolim of thousands of years had no problem with the shchita process or with these fish worms (which are delicious in gefilta fish and herring).
So be careful.
HIM – You mean the VAST majority.
hello99 -“I think I was very clear. You must ask all your sheilos to YOUR Rav.”
Oh really; I don’t see that in your response to my post.
Mod – Can the YWN confirm this new(s) story?