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Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?
I don’t think his position, in a case where the guy is practically a meizid, necessitates saying the same in a case where the person is mentally distraught.
Re: chaburah.
See M.B. 316:30 that many cases are mekalkel and only d’rabbobon. I think this would fit that category.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=257&hilite=
Could be. I was speaking from a halachic perspective, but I’ll defer to you medically.
Popa, which melachah would he be oiver on? I think chaburah would be melachah she’einah tzrichah l’gufah.
RY23, true, you’d have to try to force it down his throat. Assuming that (or similar option) was not possible, you’d be oiver on lo sa’amod all dam reiecha if you didn’t give him IV.
Your hashkafos are not only wrong, they’re dangerous.
Of course he’s not allowed to, but neither are you allowed to let him die for that.
The case referred to was a case of pikuach nefesh, where the patient was a fool for refusing to drink.
Putting an IV in is an issur melacha d’oraisah.
I would think d’rabbonon, but regardless, his foolishness shouldn’t change the fact that it’s pikuach nefesh.
I’m glad we agree on resisting change. I think we are still disagreeing on whether this is a change, and whether there is a big desire on the part of the women to dance. I haven’t observed that (which doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist elsewhere).
I actually do know one, but a lot more become affiliated with the non chassidish yeshiva community.
Did it come with the honey?
I will grant you-and others- that the Har habayis question has raised violence NOW. But there will always be some reason for Arabs to commit murder
“Raised violence” means innocent Jews dying. So you’re willing to have that happen today because it didn’t happen last month??!!
For your perceived political gain you’ll sacrifice Jewish lives??!!
Okay, that is a different point than I thought you meant. While learning Chumash and Navi is not strictly traditional, it is certainly mainstream. I’m not sure how much this changes anything. Men who don’t learn do participate, and always have, participated in hakafos and dancing. I don’t think the two are necessarily related.
Either way, women dancing on Simchas Torah remains out of the mainstream, and not traditional.
I think someone made the point earlier that the whole Bais Yaakov idea was a chiddush and originally encountered a lot of resistance. This is true, and the only reason it nevertheless succeeded was because the need was so pressing.
The point is, that it has always been the way to resist change because of the dangers involved, and that’s no different here. So we can debate whether the need is so pressing that we need to allow for another innovation. I disagree with you, though about this not being an innovation. I think that this permutation being new is enough to consider it a change which should only be adopted for a pressing need, and I don’t think that there is one.
In this case it certainly would have been (which would have actually been a good thing).
RebYidd23, if the discussion were about their being penguins, that comment would be relevant.
That demonstrates an unwillingness to have a confrontation, which I disagree with, but not acceptance of his approach.
Women learning is itself not traditional (although there were always exceptions) so that doesn’t help his argument much.
There is a comparison between Hawaiian shirts with yellow polka dot pants and women dancing to celebrate Simchas Torah in Judaism. They’re both not traditional.
Except that there is no tradition of wearing Hawaiian shirts with yellow polka dot pants to celebrate events in Judaism.
I think you just fell right into his trap.
No they haven’t, although they should have been more forceful about it.
DaMoshe, there are rabbis who call themselves Modern Orthodox who espouse positions against halacha, but you just write them off as not truly Modern Orthodox.
Avi, also from Wikipedia:
Regardless, the HH”B issue most definitely is being effectively used to help recruit terrorists.
There is less of a difference in the different people who call themselves chareidi or yeshivish than there is in the words Modern Orthodox, which mean different things to different people.
Please explain what you mean by that. I’m sure you’ll agree that the terms yeshivish and chareidi also mean different things to different people.
No, because we disagree on what the balance is. And we’re not close either. It’s like I’m in shomayim and you’re in gehenim (example of far away places).
Nice random example.
Also, please explain whether you are referring to acceptance policy or kicking a child out, because I think there’s a world of difference.
Joseph makes an excellent point. If you are entitled to write off as not truly Modern Orthodox someone who breaks halachos (and I am glad that you do that and think you are correct for doing so) then I can also write off those who commit violent or otherwise criminal acts as automatically not being chareidi.
Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?
Probably because
a) of the numbers (percentages)
b) being Modern Orthodox is frequently cited as the excuse for laxity in halacha.
It is not right for any individual to be judged negatively based on these factors, but unfortunately, it happens.
Popa, sure you are. You’re making it seem as if I didn’t agree with you that there’s a balance, and didn’t say (strongly imply) that it’s important that there be other options and that the kid is not on the street.
Agav, listening to the Rolling Stones doesn’t usually come in a vacuum, it usually comes along with an entire yeridah.
Sam, I agree with you, it isn’t.
Sam, and ZD, you’re using the No True Scotsman argument. I’m glad that you both define Orthodoxy by strict adherence to halacha. Unfortunately, many, many don’t.
Popa, you’re doing precisely what I asked you not to – taking my comment out of the context I put it into.
I thank you kindly.
It is not a zero sum game.
Regarding Grynspan, yes plans were already in place, but his act made it much easier to rile up the masses.
Netanyahu will do whatever is in his best political interest. Right now that is to improve the security situation because it’s killing his poll numbers.
Pretty good investment – one year free tuition for another 8-10 of, what, 15k per year? tuition.
I’m also curious to know if these non frum families are paying tuition or not.
It’s a balance.
Yes
The flip side is yeshivos who kick out kids all the time–essentially guaranteeing they will go off the derech–on the safeik that they might negatively influence someone.
I am not aware of any yeshivos which routinely kick kids out “all the time”. In the rare cases where kids are kicked out, the negative influence is usually karov l’vaday. Perhaps you are, and then they’re wrong. There is a huge difference, though, between expelling a kid and having a strict acceptance policy. A school is allowed to create an identity for itself. There is also a big difference between situations where there are other options or where there aren’t.
It’s very selfish attitude. You might ask what tenets of chareidi’ism provide that you are supposed to value any amount of risk to your own over any amount of damage to another. I’m not aware of any teaching in the Torah like that, so it must come from outside influences.
Chayecha kodmin. (Please take that in the context if what I wrote above.)
ROB, even Netanyahu sees the connection, but if your ideology blinds you, I suppose nothing will convince you.
ZD, no we are not, as has been repeated numerous times. You are again mischaracterizing our position.
Right, so if someone here says not to eat in McDonald’s, nobody should rely on that.
It does perhaps say that, but it also perhaps says that the parents and administration of that school are less concerned about the inevitable (or possible, if you prefer) negative influence they will have on the other children.
Ubiquitin, Avi, ask the simple question: will this likely lead to more Jews dying.
Your analogies are off the mark.
Perhaps we should call this the tea room (especially since bein hazmanim has given us an infusion of British posters).
No, I didn’t say that. I said it doesn’t mean that going to Har Habayis isn’t *a* cause (or perhaps I should use the term contributing factor), not that going is *the* cause.
I will say the same about Herschel Grynspan as I said about those who ascend Har Habayis – that he has blood on his hands. He does have some culpability.
There’s always the cholent theory.
The term was always used for people with the Hashkofo of Avi Weiss
No, the term was never how someone with the hoshkofo of Avi Weiss was referred to. The current term for that is Open Orthodox. The old term was Reform.
No, you merely use the same flawed arguments in different words.
Pulsing Flower?
That’s all you thought my answer to the egg shailah was worth?
Anyhow, for that kind of money, you’d better start a better troll thread than you did for me.
That’s not what we’re arguing, though. We’re arguing whether in a case where you must walk by the thug, you should also smack him.
And you are inexplicably arguing, sure, why not, you’re walking by anyway and he’s anyhow a thug.
And I am inexplicably getting involved in another interminable debate with you where you repeatedly ignore my rebuttals.
There are many people who want to attend an authentic service and belive in hashem but for whatever reason dont want to follow all Halachas, They might attend a Young Israel and they are welcome to go there with open arms.
If MO schools take Non-frum students , which they do, you cant expect them all to be frum after school, The Charedi schools do not usually take non-frum kids. At least some of the non-frum kids will become frum so they school is a sucess
Those are both excellent points, demonstrating that the raw numbers, without understanding the context, do not necessarily reflect failure to keep people frum.
Regarding the second, I would ask richashu: how many of those 150 came from “shomer shabbos and shomer kashrus” homes?
Right, so it’s perfectly safe to hit a thug.