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I have to come to PBA and choppy’s defense here. I do not think in any way that they invalidated MorahRach’s feelings.
I actually understood their comments to be doing the reverse.
I have one question, though. Wouldn’t this thread hurt the feelings of those who correct others’ grammar?
Wolf,
Maybe I wasn’t sufficiently clear, so I’ll restate:
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability of death would *halachically* be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
But what BHWB was refering to is the undeniable uptick in fashion on the mens side of the mechitza.
I agree that there is (although you’re right that it’s not apparent where I daven), but I think it’s baseless to assume that, “Its the expected side-effect of allowing our boys to abdicate their true role, and allow our girls to assume the mantle of being the breadwinner.”
As far as davening ‘beyechidus’ being better than davening with the tsibbur without a hat (or even a jacket) this is truly an astonishing opinion and I daresay that something was lost in the translation (as these are not Rav Kanievsky own words)
This sounds very weird. I’m not a big posek, but I am quite certain also that davening with a minyan outweighs the importance of wearing a hat and jacket.
Not so astonishing or weird. As my R”Y put it, it’s a balance between the inyan of tefillah b’tzibbur and the inyan of k’vod malchus shoayim (my R”Y felt that k’vod malchus shomayim is more important, and that, indeed, one should wait until he has a hat even if he will lose out on tefilah b’tzibur).
I’ve seen quoted in R’ Elyashiv’s name (he should have a refuah sheleimah), that tefillah b’tzibur takes precedence over wearing a hat and jacket.
Obviously, if someone lacks appreciation for how a hat and jacket reflects k’vod malchus shomayim, he won’t begin to appreciate that it’s even a shaila.
Treifa Chaya, Treifa Eina Chaya. Is that not a Machlokes about a Metzius?
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability would be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
Oomis,
I personally do not want to see chareidim or Kollel men in the army, but to be honest, who exactly do you think DID serve in the Jewish army in the days of Moshe Rabbeinu and our shoftim and neviim?
There’s not much of a comparison – those were accomplished talmidei chachamim, who were not in any spiritual danger from joining the army, and whose primary occupation, even during wartime, was learning (consider the encounter between the malach and Yehoshua).
Contrast that with the present situation, that developing Torah scholars are being threatened with losing the ability to learn and develop, and be put in a spiritually toxic environment.
Many people, especially the non-frum Jews in E”Y, feel great resentment of those who have never served. They could not care less that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel. They don’t GET that. All they see is many able-bodied men who do not have to put their physical lives on the line in the same way that is required of THEM. If we are to be intellectually honest, we should be able to understand their frustration, even if we disagree with their objections.
I think most chareidim do understand their perspective, but don’t give it much appreciation because it’s based on a non-Torah and in many cases anti-Torah perspective.
Do they understand our perspective, as you put it, “that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel”?
Maybe some do, but for the most part, the anti chareidi venom which I’ve seen spewed in the media not only doesn’t get this point, but doesn’t even grant the chareidi tzibbur the benefit of assuming that it sincerely believes in the power of shemira which learning Torah provides.
Rabbiofberlin,
Let me quote some of your statements and tell you why I disagree with your approach.
“it would also mean that the avreichim give back to the klal what they received.”
“It perpetuates a lifestyle of not giving back to the tsibbur and it keeps idle a tremendous amount of potential in every sphere of life.”
“I know firsthand tremendous attorneys and accountants who are bnai torah and contribute much more to klal ysroel now than if they were kollel yungeleit.”
These statements, implying that those learning are taking, rather than giving, show that your worldview does not give the primacy to Torah that it deserves, despite all of your disclaimers.
Interjections,
With some minor changes to protect the privacy of the individuals involved, the two stories I related were told to me as true stories.
PBA’s story, with a slight variation and without the ending, actually happened. (But not to him…yet.)
A guy was seriously dating two girls and decided on girl A. Problem was, when he proposed, she turned him down. So the next night, he got engaged to girl B.
My great aunt (grandfather’s sister) was seeing two guys. Guy A told my grandfather that he was about to propose. My grandfather liked guy B better, so he told him to hurry and propose before the other guy does (which he did).
Sam2,
See ??”? ?????? ?”?. ??”? ?? ??”?.
Coffee addict, what are you talking about?? You can not live in a country and openly disobey the laws and defy the government and the majority of the population and expect no negative consequances for your actions!
If it’s a question of (what the chareidi population sees as) Hashem’s will, or what the government and the majority of the population want, you can’t expect the chareidi population to follow the latter, regardless of your personal opinion of what Hashem wants. Even with anticipated negative consequences.
Hello99,
Install chrome, and then install the AdBlock extension.
@JB,
The author is making a very valid point, even if you don’t like his wording, the the potential savings from the better pricing online could easily be offset by the tendency to overspend because of the tendency to overbuy.
It’s actually a very narrow point, which merely addresses one possible advantage of having internet access.
The Lakewood “takanos” specifically address the fact that better pricing online is not considered parnassah, and I believe that this may be the reason.
I second ICOT on the Concords. They are available at The Hat Box.
GAW,
You’ve still got it wrong, but I’ll drop it as well. I’ll be glad to explain – on a different thread.
Re: Dallas
I figured I’d surprise you with that one. FTR, I never saw it, but it was a big topic of discussion back then, and is still a template for cop-out storytelling.
Responsibility to serve – without the politics
The irony of the thread title is how politically charged the OP’s opinion is.
You’re welcome.
Popa,
Aren’t most of the syrups used in Starbucks flavored coffees certified by the OU?
Malignancies of the Mind
The science fiction books and films that present virtual realities in which figures from the computer screen jump out at you and attack in real life are no longer fiction at all. In a very literal sense, all of the vices humans have uncovered over the millennia are now attacking internet users daily, jumping out at them from the screen and in many cases going on to destroy their personal lives.
Irreverence
In this context, it can be said without hesitation that the internet presents by far the greatest challenge to the authority of our Torah leaders today. Our nation has been guided throughout its history by our leaders, those individuals who form the unbroken chain of Torah legacy beginning with Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai. The Torah commands us to act upon the guidance of our leaders, who take their advice from the words of the Torah.
Even if it were not an article of faith, history shows that our rabbonim have not let us down. The Torah leaders have guided us on how to respond to every attack, problem and crisis that we have faced during our long and often difficult existence. Only in the merit of our Torah and the bearers of its flag have we survived the incredible physical and spiritual dangers of the past 3,000 years.
The internet is an open and limitless domain. Every user potentially puts himself directly in touch with the most depraved minds on the face of our planet. These are people we would be scared to converse with face-to-face, yet in the sterile world of virtual reality they may become teachers, mentors and closest confidents.
@JB,
It doesn’t claim most. The point it’s making (and I don’t need to defend it because I didn’t write it) is that even some who feel they are saving money are actually spending more than they otherwise would. And it’s not making the claim that there’s no over-consumption in stores; just that there’s more over-consumption online.
You are not allowed to touch muktzah items on shabbos.
There’s actually a gemara Yerushalmi which says that (not clear if it only means when the object will move).
Irreverence
In this context, it can be said without hesitation that the internet presents by far the greatest challenge to the authority of our Torah leaders today. Our nation has been guided throughout its history by our leaders, those individuals who form the unbroken chain of Torah legacy beginning with Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai. The Torah commands us to act upon the guidance of our leaders, who take their advice from the words of the Torah.
Even if it were not an article of faith, history shows that our rabbonim have not let us down. The Torah leaders have guided us on how to respond to every attack, problem and crisis that we have faced during our long and often difficult existence. Only in the merit of our Torah and the bearers of its flag have we survived the incredible physical and spiritual dangers of the past 3,000 years.
The internet is an open and limitless domain. Every user potentially puts himself directly in touch with the most depraved minds on the face of our planet. These are people we would be scared to converse with face-to-face, yet in the sterile world of virtual reality they may become teachers, mentors and closest confidents.
Again, I’m not arguing that there aren’t grounds to be meikil, or even that R’Moshe ZT”L wan’t toleh the din on whether the issuris shema yaachil or chasnus.
I’m just pointing out that there are acharonim who are machmir even with the issur coming from chasnus.
Malignancies of the Mind
The science fiction books and films that present virtual realities in which figures from the computer screen jump out at you and attack in real life are no longer fiction at all. In a very literal sense, all of the vices humans have uncovered over the millennia are now attacking internet users daily, jumping out at them from the screen and in many cases going on to destroy their personal lives.
JB,
What doesn’t follow about over-consumption?
ZD,
If the IDF would make the necessary accommodations (as per uneeq’s post), the issues you bring up wouldn’t exist.
Don’t blame the chareidim, who are doing what they need to, under the circumstances. Blame the Israeli government.
However, since most Rishonim only bring the sevara of chasnus, and this does not apply to a mumar the gezeira would not apply.
This is an oversimplification. There are sevaros, said by big acharonim (as mentioned earlier in this thread), to be machmir even according to the rishonim who hold the reason for the gezeiro is chasnus.
Societal Breakdown
The rise of social networking, blogs, chat groups, and even texting all threaten to destroy the traditional relationships that are still so vital to our societal wellbeing. Family and friends are forgotten as people come to rely more and more on the companionship and approval of their virtual counterparts. But these companions are only a superficial, false substitute for the healthy relationships we still need.
The internet is presiding over the breakdown of our family, friendships, and society as a whole.
Depravity
[this was shortly after the Holocaust from which the Rosh Yeshiva escaped]
To this Torah giant, a forbidden sight was worse than death.
Unfortunately, there have been innumerable stories of people who have not stopped at seeing. These were individuals who would never have dreamed of compromising their lives and characters in such a manner before they began using the internet. In recent years the dayanim who deal with gittin have begun
to deal daily with divorces in which the internet was the root cause.
The element of anonymity that the internet provides allows people to bypass the natural, inborn shame they would normally feel when involved in inappropriate behavior. Therefore, Harav Shmuel Wosner, a senior posek of our generation, ruled that one must observe the halachos of yichud, seclusion with a member of the opposite gender, in regard to the internet.
Negative Character Traits
Criminality
There is much more that we have not touched on yet in the limited space available here. We have not even touched upon the internet as a gathering for criminals, cults and worse. It is a means by which innocent people are unwittingly trapped, and cheated. Copyright infringement and piracy are a reality every nanosecond. Gambling has shattered the lives of too many upstanding individuals within our own communities.
Conclusion
It must be underscored that the internet is still in its infancy. The web first became available some 20 years ago and only became popular in the Jewish world more recently, over the past decade. The potential for it to overtake our lives and society entirely in the foreseeable future cannot be underestimated.
By following the call of our leaders, our gedolim and rabbonim.
Malignancies of the Mind
The science fiction books and films that present virtual realities in which figures from the computer screen jump out at you and attack in real life are no longer fiction at all. In a very literal sense, all of the vices humans have uncovered over the millennia are now attacking internet users daily, jumping out at them from the screen and in many cases going on to destroy their personal lives.
Irreverence
In this context, it can be said without hesitation that the internet presents by far the greatest challenge to the authority of our Torah leaders today. Our nation has been guided throughout its history by our leaders, those individuals who form the unbroken chain of Torah legacy beginning with Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai. The Torah commands us to act upon the guidance of our leaders, who take their advice from the words of the Torah.
Even if it were not an article of faith, history shows that our rabbonim have not let us down. The Torah leaders have guided us on how to respond to every attack, problem and crisis that we have faced during our long and often difficult existence. Only in the merit of our Torah and the bearers of its flag have we survived the incredible physical and spiritual dangers of the past 3,000 years.
The internet is an open and limitless domain. Every user potentially puts himself directly in touch with the most depraved minds on the face of our planet. These are people we would be scared to converse with face-to-face, yet in the sterile world of virtual reality they may become teachers, mentors and closest confidents.
Superficiality
If medical experts and professors are alarmed at what is happening to our generation, how much more so must we be concerned about protecting the most precious and vital aspect of our very being?
Addiction
Internet users relinquish control of their minds and actions.
Like smokers, who are the first to dash out of shul motzaei Shabbos to grab that cigarette they have been craving all afternoon, frum internet users will grab their cell or dash to their computer at the first opportunity to satisfy that urge that has been nagging them all day.
Worse yet, internet addiction has driven people to the most destructive behaviors toward themselves and others around them. Much has been written in scientific literature about internet addicts who have been driven to the point of murder! A study showed that as many as 10 million Chinese youths are so addicted to the internet that they are in need of medical assistance. The New York Times reported on a research study conducted in Maryland that found that 200 people who were blocked from their regular access to the web displayed extreme signs of irritability and other abnormal behavior. Regular use of the internet is being blamed in part for the increased incidence of ADHD among children. Companies have reported that after restricting their workers from spurious access to the internet they saw jumps in productivity of 50%!
I once was waiting in a governent office with an older immigrant from Russia and a Litvak. The Russian addressed him in Yiddish and he had a very difficult time trying to answer.
So if you once met a Litvak who didn’t speak Yiddish well, that proves that none do?
The description of “futuristic technology” is hilarious. a lot of that stuff is actually available now or will be available commercially with in the next 2-3 years.
In the original brochure, they actually had mareh m’komos for the technology!
I noticed a couple more songs cut short. I redid them and will send them out shortly. I have to make a quick shopping trip before Shabbos, so I’ll double check in the car.
Have a great Shabbos!
GAW,
As long as you insist that the rabbonim consider working “mini assur” (whatever that means), I have nothing to retract.
You are being m’vazeh talmidei chachomim, and completely misrepresenting their opinions and motives.
Unless your use of the term “mini assur” is a retraction from your insinuation that they contemplate the possibility that working is assur, but your too embarrassed to just admit that you overstepped your bounds.
Do you realize how silly it sounds top say that rabbonom hold it’s assur to earn a living through honest work?
Great. One file was no good, so I’m in the middle of sending a corrected version. If any more are faulty, or if you need anything else, let me know.
the “it was all a dream, I’ll change” is lame
Tell that to the guy who shot J.R. 😉
I’m still waiting for your response re: Asifa Rabbonim.
I’m waiting for yours. You avoided responding to the part I called you out on (parnassah being assur) and instead wanted to discuss kollel vs, working, which is a topic for another thread.
Disclaimer: The following, also from the asifa brochure, is a work of fiction, and won’t prove anything to someone who thinks access to technology is not a dangerous thing.
Future e-Ramifications
Sunday, May 20, 2012
But Yitzy made sure to keep the hard facts carefully hidden from others. As far as his friends and acquaintances knew, he was successfully manipulating the opportunities offered by the internet to advance his fast-growing business.
May 2017
Still, Yitzy was careful to keep to his word. There was not one computer to be found in his home. None of the primitive hard drives, keyboards and processors were wired up together. That would be exposing his children to unnecessary risk.
May 2022
Sarah used her iShop to order her gown and jewelry for the evening. Nobody would have dreamed 10 years ago that someday you could sit in the comfort of your living room and view a complete catalog in 3D, just as if the item were right in front of you! The caterer, decorator and musicians were hand-picked, based on who had earned the best internet ratings.
Yitzy was reminded of the massive asifa of 10 years before when the rabbis had made such a big deal about the internet. Now they were arranging a follow-up asifa for the public to renew its commitment to avoid unnecessary use of the internet in any form. Over 100,000 Orthodox Jews were expected to participate this time around.
May 2027
Yitzy could tell the issue was closed and there was nothing further he could do. Fuming, he cut off the image of the principal without bothering to say goodbye. The Yom Tov passed in a blur and Yitzy frantically tried to find a new yeshiva for his son, but it seemed that they were all in communication with each other. Whomever he spoke to responded politely but firmly that there was no room for Yossi in their yeshiva.
Weeks passed and there was no improvement in the situation. Yossi was sitting at home wasting his entire day, from night until morning, with the newest device his father had given him a few months before. It was a fantastic phone, toy, player and much more all wrapped in one.
Of course, it was powered by continuous online interaction, but who was still concerned about that? After observing the change in his son, though, Yitzy was forced to face the sinking feeling that perhaps the yeshiva principal had been right after all. He sat back and thought the matter over. There was no other choice. He would have to find a way to get Yossi back into the same yeshiva. But if the principal was dead set against it, how could he accomplish that?
Their conversation was over, but Yitzy could not bring himself to move. He sat in the same place for a long while mulling over what the Rosh Yeshiva had just told him. Hardest of all was to admit that he, Yitzy, the self-proclaimed expert on modern technology, had erred drastically. The rabbis had been right after all, of course, and he of all people had been trapped by the yetzer hara into the most pernicious of errors.
May 2032
Now Yitzy could no longer find cheap suppliers for his products. With the gray market effectively closed, Yitzy tried competing directly with the wide range of new products and applications that flooded the retail market in the new Grid epoch. Massive fiber-optic cables now crisscrossed America, replacing the primitive telephone and cable lines that once transmitted messages and data. Now the entire Europe and North America relied solely on the unified cable service to provide VoIP. You could no longer get telephone service without being connected to the Grid. And that same cable delivered television and movies, including the most depraved. All you needed was a small device to access the information that was present. And despite all the efforts by responsible Jews to keep television and movies out of their homes, there was always the worry that one of the children would obtain any of various devices that would allow them to access everything.
Newspapers, that all-American pastime, had entirely disappeared to be replaced by iPapers that were updated hourly. And virtually any information you needed was now available in an instant using the TalkTalk technology. Anything you needed to know, find or buy could be presented as a verbal query and TalkTalk would tell you where to find out or whatever you wanted to know.
Recently, the new I-glasses had become an overnight sensation. Using a wireless connection to the Grid, these glasses provided you with all sorts of information about whatever building or site you looked at, such as what was inside and even the history of the building!
Even videos were almost entirely on their way out. Now holograms were used to give you the feeling of a live conversation with a person who was actually on the other side of the world. Teleconferences between executives now took on the feel of personal meetings as the realtime image of participants at widely distributed locations joined in holographic unity. When a major event was organized in Eretz Yisrael, Jews in America could participate fully sitting in their own auditorium. They watched a live hologram of the speakers as they delivered their message, complete with gestures, from thousands of miles away.
Yossi had long since left the picture entirely, and his minimal contact since then had only been to encourage his younger siblings to join his dissolute ways. Unfortunately, more than one of them had been convinced. Yitzy tried spending some time studying Gemara. After years of constant exposure to the ever-changing technology, however, he found that he could not concentrate on anything anymore.
May 2062
It was the voice of his wife Sarah, who sounded very concerned.
Bpt,
Are there more ladies’ clothing stores in BP, or men’s? How about in Lakewood?
On MBD Let My People Go, There’s a song called Golus Mitzrayim which begins, “By Paro in Mitzrayim”. It’s a gorgeous song; maybe that’s the one you mean. He also sang it at one of the earlier HASC concerts.
I assume you mean the haircut website. It’s not mine, but I helped (in a very small way) to get it up.
As far as Ruach Revival, If you find Feif’s email address, I’m sure he can send you the link.
Feif,
Did you get it (I rarely check the email address I sent it from, which is just for CR stuff)?
From a one time convo -I don’t think you can make any inferences about s/o.
Agreed.
The discussion is still valid, though, in a general sense (which is how I treat all discussions here, because you can never know what’s real and what’s made up).
Feif,
I asked a mod to send you a link to three Ruach Revival albums. Did you get it?
I would say that Diabetes, High Cholestoral , High Blood Pressure, Obesity , Heart Disase which can be caused by food and certainly if you have these maladies you need to watch what you eat, is VERY destructive to a frum marriage
And therefore we shouldn’t be concerned about the destructive affects of internet abuse? I still don’t get this point of yours, which you keep repeating.
Yes, there are other bad things in the world. We should do something about them as well. But don’t therefore ignore what is a HUGE problem.
it is not an “internet addiction” and as a psychologist just dealing with the internet portion of the issue would be a grave mistake.
Of course there might be underlying causes which should be dealt with, but clinically, it is treated as an addiction (12 step).
i can just imagine what my boss would say if i would want to email my history to someone
They don’t send out lists unless inappropriate sites are visited. Contact Web Chaver for confirmation.
I don’t know too much (anything, actually) about webscraping, but why would you need to scrape porn sites? Filters are customizable and don’t have to be whitelists.
What is your definination of a site that needs to be “Filtered”
Pesach Krohn defines YWN and VIN as sites that need to be “Filtered”
Others have claimed that FB and Twitter need to be Filtered
One Satmar Rebbe claims YAHOO needs to be filtered
Other Gedolim claim THE ENTIRE INTERNET needs to be filtered.
How about Godaddy, They are a Domain Registration Site , but use Schumtz methods to advertise. Should GoDaddy be filtered?
So your solution, since there is not a consensus, is that no filter should be used? That’s a senseless argument.
my Kollel cousins do have this disdain or work
That’s not something I agree with.
and consider it a punishment
It is – B’zeias apecha tochal lechem is a curse.
they certainly do not look positively upon it as a a mitzva asseh in the same vain as they do putting on Tfillin
You do?
GAW:
That’s not the only thing you said.
internet addiction implies that people who go on filtered internet would be no different
There are definitely two aspects to it; on type of addict would go to SA.
The type you refer to, who is only on “kosher” sites, is not destroying his neshoma as badly as the first (so I wouldn’t say “no different”) but may still be causing himself and his family considerable damage through his behavior.
