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See Beis Yitzchak Y.D. 2:75 about intangible items not having any status as property. Also see Pischei Choshen, Geneivah, page 287, where he is lenient about copying tapes for personal use.
hello: Can you provide a quotation or citation from a shailos uteshuvos that clearly declares that an intangible object can be owned, *and* explains the svara why an intangible item can be a property? Rav Belsky clearly says not, and that the problem is only hasagas gvul.
Sam2: I’m not keeping track of your quotes that fall into that category. Over the time you’ve been posting here you’ve made numerous comments that fit that description, that can be hunted down if wanted. Off the top of my head you’re defnding the indefensible such as YU women gemorah classes. And instances where you always feel compelled to make men and women equal in halachic matters. Or zionism. Or referring to Dr. Lamm, who calls bnei Torah “cavemen”, as a “Gaon and a tremendous Talmid Chacham”.
No, that is a mischarecterization. I would venture that the majority of poskim and gedolim are mattir. But I will not engage in a name-rattling contest with you, because which side has a majority is secondary and almost irrelevant. You just need to follow your own posek. And I’ve said all along, from my very first comment on this thread, that it is a shaila and there are two differing opinions. So, yes, absolutely one must ask a shaila first. As I’ve repeatedly stated, even according to the mattirim it is only permissible if you would have not otherwise made the purchase. That’s what I’ve indicated all along.
As far as Hasagas Gvul vs. Gezel is concerned, according to most of BOTH those poskim who permit and those that don’t permit copying — including, most notably, Rav Belsky shlita — it is only hasagas gvul and definitely not gezel. Remember, even according to the mattirim it is HG if you would have otherwise purchased it. And according to those who forbid, mostly, do so on the grounds of HG not gezel. I also think in many of the names you earlier rattled off, you were not faithful to their basis or reasoning. You have not presented any halachic svara from yourself or from any of the poskim WHY or HOW it is halachicly gezel mamish. You simply provided quotations or paraphrasing of one or two poskim who used the term gezel in this regard. Without citing the reasoning for reaching that conclusion. I suspect that even in those cases they may have used the term gezel simply as a euphomism for their opinion of it being assur. It is entirely conceivable and reasonable for the term gezel to be used euphomistically even in a classic case of hasagas gvul.
Look, I could even concede regarding Rav Elyashev shlita. It doesn’t alter the bottom line. There is a legitimate disagreement with two sides. I’m not going to get into a contest with you as to who can rattle off the names of more rabbonim supporting their position. I’ve sufficiently backed up my position. If you want to feel that Rav Zev Leff shlita and all the other poskim who permit copying (under limited circumstances) are making ganovim out of klal yisroel, I’ll leave that between you and Rav Zev Leff and the others. I, for one, will continue following my posek (who I use for ALL issues.) And he permits. As do many others. I will also assume that anyone following this practice is, too, adhering to their own posek who permits.
And that’s it in a nutshell.
mdd: Far far less than 10% of Israelis are in Kollel. Even far less than 1% of Israelis are in Kollel. There should be much much more Israelis learning in Kollel than currently are.
If the Israeli government doesnt want to fund Kollel education, let them stop funding students attending Bar Ilan and other Israeli universities as well. And let them stop taxing Chareidim.
I need to locate my notes that should have the mekor in Kovetz Teshuvos where Rav Elyashev paskens that there is no such thing as intellectual property in halacha.
Your quote was by a third party who takes a strong pro-music producers position, as evidenced through his sefer, as he understood Rav Elyashev. It was not Rav Elyashev himself giving his position.
And my request for your source on Rav Elyashev was not in the least bit rude.
You’re full of hot air.
Mr. Lieberman was a conservative “rabbi” and professor at the conservative JTS.
I’m sure we are all aware how eagerly our Zeidas ran to enlist in the Russian Army as soon as they received a draft notice from His Majesty the Czar, the great and magnificent leader of the Russian people. It was with such utter joy that Yidden would become proud Russian soldiers.
Surely no Jew dodged the draft. Why, that would be most unpatriotic and against dina d’malchusa.
Of course we must not forget our brethren who proudly served the Kaiser in the Great War. When the Nazis took power in Germany, these fine Yidden would proudly display their Iron Cross earned for great valor and service to the motherland. The arriving SS Officer, undoubtedly, would sob and reminisce with the German Jewish war hero and give him a friendly pat on the back before moving on.
Raise my cholesterol level too high, to get a medical exemption.
hello99: The many people who copy aren’t shopping around. They are simply following THEIR POSEK who allow it. As an aside, my posek who I haven’t named (and wont), whose name is well-known around the world and sits on the dais at the Agudah Conventions, paskens it is not prohibited to copy what you would otherwise would have not purchased. It is a common and widespread psak. And, no, I will not rattle off additional names to the two I already gave you in response to your request for “one”.
hello99:Rav Zeff Leff shlita, and the other poskim who similarly pasken one is permitted to copy, are mainstream accepted Chareidi Orthodox poskim. Frankly, I am a bit shocked you implied Rav Leff and the other poskim are “conservative”. The people who copy rightfully do so by following their poskim who permit it.
uneeq: Zeh nehne vzeh lo chaser.
AC: How did the public know of the existence of the Zohar prior to its public release 500 years ago?
If the price is so high that the potential customer would not have bought it at all, Rav Zeff Leff shlita paskens that it is muttar to copy. (Zeh nehne vzeh lo chaser.)
AC: The Zohar was only revealed publicly about 500 years ago. (For a thousand years prior it was secret.) Lag Bomer has been celebrated longer than that.
AviK: The Chazon Ish never said that or anything remotely like that. How do you know there are “many” in Yeshiva that are not learning? You don’t know that and have zero evidence of that. You just made that up due to your antagonism against Torah study.
Sam: No, not at all. I’ve provided examples of a subset of contemporary poskim who will today advise you it is permitted to copy in many, but not all, circumstances. They are 100% reliable and legitimate psak din that can be someach on. (I’m also a bit surprised that you of all people would question that, considering your previously stated acceptance of really really shvach mo positions that go way out of the mainstream.)
hello: Not at all. At most the terminology could have been improved.
yitay: If legitimate poskim allow this, and I’ve demonstrated earlier in the thread they do, this is a perfectly legitimate discussion and entirely reasonable and acceptable to point out this permissive activity from a halachic point of view. From a secular law POV we haven’t really even discussed in this thread. But “fair use” is part of US Copyright Law that permits much of this. In any event, this has been a halachic discussion not one of secular law.May 13, 2012 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm in reply to: Woman Should Always Wear Her Wedding Ring in Public? #873614
yitay: It isn’t “s/he”, it is she. The SHC certainly is only referring to women wearing a ring. Also, it isn’t any less of a “constant reminder” to the spouse as it is to those she comes into contact with. It is a reminder to both.
hello99: I can find you a whole list of poskim who hold cholov stam is treif. Are you going to stop advising people they can rely on Rav Moshe as a result? I can list you who paskens artificial insemination leads to mamzeirus. Must everyone follow the most stringent opinion despite those poskim who hold otherwise? Rav’s Leff and Shapiro aren’t unique in this position. There is no reason people can’t follow their shitta. Even IF it is a minority opinion, the world isn’t required to universally disregard a minority opinion to follow a ruling that has more contemporary poskim. And when being mlamed zchus ex post facto, we certainly can ascribe their actions to being in adherence to the shittas that are permissive.
Beautiful story. Thank you for sharing.
May the RBS”O reward the askan for his suffering.
Then they wonder why people copy.
hello99: You already have a strong limud zchus that those doing the copying are simply following the various shittos (several of which were earlier cited including Rav Zev Leff) that hold there is no issue of gezel but only hasagas gvul. And even that, they specifically say as cited, is inapplicable in many circumstances and thus copying is permissible.May 13, 2012 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm in reply to: Woman Should Always Wear Her Wedding Ring in Public? #873612
So you disagree with the Sefer HaChinuch?
Lieberman isn’t the only Conservative “rabbi” that learnt in a real yeshiva. Some of the same people who started OU started the JTS.
Then it is actually less expensive to buy 2 half gallons than to purchase a gallon container!! What’s the point.
So you picture everyone as goyim?
rob: The Tzitz Eliezer is talking about practical positions of today when he prohibits a lone communal position but permits if he is only one of several on a committee making decisions jointly.
Rav Elyashev paskens that the concept of intellectual property does not exist in halacha. A few days ago you said that the following day you’d post an “exact quote” of Rav Elyashev and you still haven’t posted it.
“A convert may not hold a position of Jewish communal authority.” (Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 1:4). The Tzitz Eliezer ruled that a convert may not serve in a lone communal position but he may serve on a communal committee. (Tzitz Eliezer 19:48)May 11, 2012 2:57 am at 2:57 am in reply to: Having Respect for Your Elders, Kohanim and Rabbonim #898083
Rav Moshe Shternbuch: Can A Boy Get Engaged Before His Older Brother?
The Shach (YD 244:13) says that a younger brother must wait for his older brother before getting engaged. It seems that since this is because of kavod and the older brother can be “Mochel”. Therefore the younger brother can proceed after getting permission. Rav Moshe Shternbuch (1:739) has two issues with this logic. First, we must question if his mechila is just lip service or if he really means it deep in his heart. Second, it is not only an issue of kavod, it can do real damage to the older brother because people may think there is something wrong with him.
Therefore says Rav Shternbuch we must look at each case to see if the reason for the delayed engagement. If the older brother is extremely picky then there is no embarrassment to him at all. If however he is not particularly fussy but he hasn’t been presented with suitable suggestions, then the younger brother should wait a full year before getting engaged and not rely on the mechila of his older brother.
He does make one exception. If the younger brother wants to get married before the age of 20 years old as is the Halacha in the gemara then he needn’t wait because everyone will understand the reason why he got engaged before his older brother and it won’t cause the older brother’s reputation any harm.May 11, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am in reply to: Having Respect for Your Elders, Kohanim and Rabbonim #898082
There’s a machlokes haposkim whether you have to honor all your older brothers or just the oldest. It is best to be stringent and honor all your older brothers. It should be noted that Gilyon Maharsha and Bais Lechem Yehuda bring from other sources that this obligation is not for any brother that is older than you, only the oldest of the brothers. It seems clear that the obligation includes even a brother who is not the oldest in the house and is preceded by sisters. This halacha does not apply to an older sister according to the poskim, but one should treat her with respect as they should with all people older than themselve.
Are you obligated to stand up when your older brother walks into the room? The Shevet HaKehosi discusses this issue in 1:262. He says that the Bais Meir points out that when it comes to a big brother you are only obligated to give him kavod, but there is no chiyuv of Morah, to fear him. The Sefer Chareidim holds that standing up for someone falls under the category of kavod, and so it seems also from the Shulchan Aruch. On the other hand the Shaar Ephraim and the Makneh both hold that standing up is a matter of morah and not kavod, so you might not be obligated. However, the Brisker Rov in Chidushei HaGriz (Hilchos Talmud Torah) holds that you are chayav in both kavod and morah of your big brother.
Since many poskim hold that the obligation of honoring your big brother is Min HaTorah, the Shevet HaKehosi says you should be machmir and stand up for him since it is a Safek D’Oiraisa.
The obligation to honor an older brother applies even if the younger brother is a Talmid Chacham and greater in Torah than the older brother. (Rama Yoreh Deah Siman 240:22)
One is also obligated to honor their uncles and aunts (as long as their fathed is alive.)
What attracts them to you to ask shailos?
Shailos? You’re a posek and people come to you with shailos?
mdd: Rav Shach supported giving land to the Arabs for peace. See his Seforim.
Mictavim Umaamarim Volume 1: Letter 6
mdd: The Briskers have no objections to giving land for peace. Rav Schach, another strong anti-zionist, also supported giving land.
And, yes, zionism was founded to take yidden off the derech. Read up about Hertzl ym’s.
At the Cheder Day Camp or the sleepaway camp?
Rabbi Zev Leff shlita is another who says you can copy if you would certainly have not otherwise have purchased it. He says various poskim pasken like this. He states “Zeh Nehene V’ zeh Lo Chaser”. This opinion is available on his website as a recording made by him. Question numbers 1176, 1695 and 1684.
So, clearly, even if you find other shittos forbidding, there are strong shittos and halachic reasoning that permit that can be relied upon.
The Igros Moshe, which is the only source you cited, seems to clearly base it on hasagas gvul. In fact he writes it is midas sdom for the producer to be makpid on copying if it causes him no loss. i.e. If it is no longer being sold, it is okay to copy it.
Rav Elyashev says there is no concept of intellectual property in halacha. If I recall, he said that dina dmalchusa precludes copying. But that means that if, for example, Congress passes a law that makes a copyright expire after five years, you could halachicly copy anything over five years old. Also, most poskim say dina dmalchusa doesn’t apply to dinei maminos bein adam lchaveiro.
What’s the difference? Just buy 2 half-gallon containers. Even if you found a CY gallon, it wouldn’t cost any less than 2 half gallon bottles.
I do see once in a blue moon Golden Flow gallon containers in a small number of Brooklyn groceries.
What’s so hard to understand? I didn’t say there is an open-ended heter to copy at-will. Hasagas gvul is a concern, depending on the circumstances and situation. But other times hasagas gvul is inapplicable and you can copy.
If you feel it is “gezel” to copy, please explain how most poskim allow making a copy of a CD for your car (with the original at home) or a backup copy in case the original gets too scratched up or copy your CD to your iPad or MP3 player. Do you, against the general halachic consensus, feel even those copying is prohibited? And explain how those copying is any different than copying a CD from a friend that you are 100% certain you would never have otherwise purchased.
“In fact, can you cite even a single Posek who explictly denies intellectual property rights.”
Rav Yaakov Shapiro shlita, of Bayswater. And Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev shlita.
You haven’t cited anything that says anything other than possibly hasagas gvul. Your claim of gezel is unsupported.
And your characterization of Rav Elyashev’s position is mistaken. Why don’t you cite and quote *verbatim* what even the third-party Sefer you saw about him claimed.
Incorrect, hello99. Rav Elyashev holds there can be no intellectual property protection on a voice (i.e. music.) You are also mistaken about most of the others and their position. Provide citations for your claims for all those sources that anything other than hasagas gvul is at stake. At most, if at all.
Additionally, what I stated earlier above is the position of various poskim that can be relied upon even if some other pokim disagree and hold there is intellectual property protection al pi din.
As an aside, Torah publications also cannot be protected from dissemination as IP.
The Gedolim have all already said: We will submit to prison before we submit to their army.
Let them statg building new prisons to house hundreds of thousands of Torah Jews.
Is this about Camp Morris the camp or Camp Morris the bungalow colony?
You’re correct he shouldn’t have been there due to the danager. But still have sympathy.
Same with Daniel Pearl.
Is it also known as Machne Moshe?