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Max well: Halacha allows unlimited pricing for time and effort, as the worker can claim he does a better job (as all camps claim).
Well said and echo Wolf: A good price is one you can afford.
How in the world can the parents force him? If he is the age to go to college, he is over 18, and he can do whatever he wants!
There is no chiyuv to listen to your parents to be Over a Lav (such as Bittul Torah), and if he learns 16 hours a day and has no time to go learn a parnassah (and his Rov agrees), why should he go?
Moderator-80
I Should have known not to argue with THE ONE (or EIGHTIETH) with so much modness!
Ask your own LOR for details, and if the case comes up regarding building a ship with magnets, I will ask my LOR 🙂
Mr. Mod80:
Bemechilas Kevodcha of your Modness, my rav specificly holds that if you do a melacha that is not visible and has no effect, then it is not a melacha.
For example, if you have refrigerator that has a light bulb, but you unscrew the lightbulb, or put in a dead lightbulb, then you may open it, even though you are “completing the circuit”.
In addition, one may also apen a door that causes the alarm light to go on if that light is not visible, i.e. you placed the light behind the sheetrock.
Not to argue with the point (that building the circuit would be the melacha), but the example.
It then begins to get interesting when you start to deal with wireless charging pads. Since no circuit is built, the Chazon Ish would hold it is not a melacha. (there still would be other issues, such as Uvda D’Chol (a catch-all), ask your LOR).
BS”D
aries2756: Just to be accurate, most Shitos hold electricity is only M’Drabanan. The Chazon Ish holds it is a Toldah of Boneh, not Ma’avir.
(I hpe this is not too detailed).
The proof that I have heard is that no other religion claims there was a revelation to the masses, only to individuals (such as mohammed by Gabriel, or yeshu appearing to the gospels, or the book of Mormon from Moroni to Joseph Smith).
The exception is Hinduism, where there was a great revelation, but then came “The battle at Kurukshetra”, and everyone who saw the revelation dies.
It is actually a Pasuk in Devarim.
???? ??????-??? ???????? ?????????? ??????-????? ?????????, ?????-??????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????? ???-???????, ??????????? ???????????, ?????-????? ???????????: ?????????, ????????? ????????? ??????, ???, ?????????? ????????. ?? ???????? ??? ???? ???????? ???????? ????????-??????, ?????????-?????????? ??????–????????
(Mechon Mamre)
UNDERLINE ????????
1: Iranians are Aryan (not Arab), which is the same stock as Germans (once we are on the topic of Eisav).
2: Lower sample size does not have anything to do with rates, which are normalized for size (ask Dr. Pepper for more info).
3: The Amish also allow for their children to make a choice AFTER they try being non-Amish. It is actually built into the religion called “Rumspringa”, and its not considered OTD for the Amish. Once you are an Jewish OTD, its much harder to be reaccepted.
4: The best way to keep children on is to marry them young. Many Chassidim (not to generalize) do marry younger than other groups.
Clearheaded (Philosopher) brings up a good point. There are TWO reasons for Tznius.
One reason (which should be tought more) is the “Hatzneya Leches” aspect, and how everyone (men and women) should act and dress in a manner befitting a Torah Jew.
The second reason (which I am afraid is more stressed) is the “you can’t do that/wear that”, which bases off of the technical aspects of Tznius (like the issur for a man to see a woman who is not Tzanua (elbows knees and neckline)). Girls are tought what is (or is claimed to be) Assur vs. “How to dress as befitting a Bas Yisroel”.
Teaching what is Assur is what drives girls crazy (and not wanting to be Tzanua). The first aspect would teach them self-esteem and be a better lesson for life. Judaism is a positive religion, and going negative could drive girls off.
emoticon613: In the summer it is a Faux-Pas to wear a black hat; a straw hat is “respectable” and the proper attire.
Five? I thought only two:
1: How much?
2: How much up front?
🙁
Dr. Pepper:
Actuary is becoming more popular as boys push off working for Kollel, but can still take tests. I know a number of Bochrim/Kollel who are working on it.
I hear though thet the tests are extremely difficult, and not worth starting with if you can’t do calculus (or even harder stuff) in your brain.
A possibility:
Kedusha is impossible without Tumah (before Moshiach), and as Kedusha grows, Tumah must grow as well (Similar to Newton’s Third law). In order to have a “Koach Kedusha” i.e. Moshe Rabbainu, there was a requirement to have someone with the “Koach HaTumah” equal to Moshe.
Not my style (too Kabbalistic), but its an idea.
Most people seem to be civil. 🙂
Kaas leads to Avodah Zara, but like all Midos, it has its good points (sometimes you need to vent at something), as per the Gemorah Shabbos 105B.
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Kasha: in Charadi E”Y you are correct (can’t speak for Dati Leumi), as the action of holding hands would be Lifnei Iver.
Wolf: in Marine Park you are correct, as the action of holding hand would not be seen as “creating Hirhur”.
(Disclosure: My Rosh Yeshiva “discourages” couples holding hands in public. In general, the Ittisa and I are Makpid not to pass things to each other while not in the privacy of our own home. No reason to announce anything to anyone, but that is just a Geder of Tznius).
clearheaded
Member
“You probably meant to say it is accepted minhug among some Chassidim not to have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their houses.”
Yup. Sorry for lumping all Chassidim together.
Wolf:
It is accepted Minhag among Chassidim to not have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their house (as I have seen myself). I would assume this is a similar concept.
It may not be “halacha”, but we never like dismissing Minhagei Yisroel.
His wrong was saying it was “Halacha” instead of a Minhag/Chumrah. This is a very common error (as I am sure you know), and I have seen this not only by Tznius, but also G’Brokts, eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, and Shkiea/Tsais (as well as others).
May we all be Zoche to “have all of Tanach, Shas and Rishonim at my (and our) fingertips”.
Kasha: Dunno. Heard it from him directly. Give him a call (He does take calls).
Kasha: Rabbi Binyomin Forst.
The parents have the right to send their children to another school if they want, and the court is taking away that right in the name of “Desegregation”. Remember the bus fights in Boston in the 70’s? Just like that does not work to “mix” the classes, this will not work either. Even if the parents are “Racist” (which they seem NOT to be, just following their Rebbe), they are still right.
So right – huh? Haven’t you heard of Hishtadlus?
EDITED
so right: That is something I am sure you are so wrong (pun intended). Many people in this day and age (sadly) live a life expecting things from others (of course, excepting the attempts to wim the lottery).
And yes, It is all b’Yad Hashem, but as I have posted earlier from Rav Wolfson, Hashem helps those who help themselves.
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smartcookie: Kasha before seemed to infer that Chassidim (groups?) have way fewer, if any divorces in their circles due to the extreme stigma of being divorced.
Why do I think you are talking about two different groups?
SmartCookie-
100% correct. The Chassidim I see are the ones that come collecting for their daughter’s wedding and to buy the couple an apartment, or so that they can support their son-in-law in Kollel. It rubs off on me the wrong way. The Chassidim that I meet are not the ones that you would want me to meet!
I’m sure its not all that bad. After all, Chabad is a Chassidus, and they do a nice job, sending out Shluchim and the sort. B&H is a big store in NYC run by Chassidim.
Then again, the town I mentioned before is mostly on support, as well as those on MOFES in NYC (Williamsburg & BP).
I wonder what the percentages are? Anyone with any stats on Chassidim, Yeshivish, etc. on Tzedaka or gov’t support? It seems like an awful lot. But then again, I don’t see those who DON’T need the money & don’t come to my door or my shul.
As a final point: I remember hearing a story about (IIRC) Rav Schwab how people were bemoaning to him about the frum people caught stealing, etc. He replied to them that if they would have been eating Pork, they would not be called Frum, so why if they steal, you do call them Frum? They’re not frum!
I would guess the same idea applies here. Those who expect to live off of Tzedaka would not be called frum, let alone Chassidim (a term which the Gemarah reserves for two Tannayim alone!).
May we all be Zoche to Ahavas Chinam.
Clearheaded: Thank you. I hope you don’t mind if I look at you as an expert, so that you can guide me in these matters.
smartcookie: As I have stated, I don’t know much about that part of the torah world. I just know what I can see, and what others tell me. If there is no divorce in the Chassidish circles, then there are abusive relationships. I see Shalom Task Force, but Clearheaded has a good point (about remaining in an abusive relationship for “love”, “children”, “family”, etc. when all would really be much better if they just got out). Clearheaded tells me that divorce is accepted for abuse, unfaithfulness, etc. (SJS’s 4 points earlier). You state:
“They don’t stay in a marriage if they’re not happy”
Others before you (E.G. Kasha) disagree. Before I can know why there is/isn’t a similar divorce problem, and if there is anything that can be adapted, I first need some facts, please?
I still think the yeshivish world is for the reasons I said above, but am unsure if there is the same divorce factor in the chassidish world. If I am correct that the divorces we see are an outcome of the Shidduch Crisis and the obsession over Gelt, then the Chassidim will (Bezras Hashem) avoid this problem.
Clearheaded seems to have these facts, so I await her ideas on how she would help prevent broken engagements/divorces.
clearheaded: I’m not about to argue with a real “chassidish woman”, but explain to me why there is a “Shalom Task Force”, when it should be obvious (same for the more right/less worldly “yeshivish” world). Otherwise I agree with what you say. B”H women are able to get out of a bad relationship.
so right: Not Mekabel, Choshesh. I find it wierd that if there was a gezairah from the Gov’t that there had to bungalows and men had to be in the city without their wives for two months the gedoilim would Shrei about family and husbands & wives without each other, but some of us do so willingly.
In order for you to convince me, I would like to see proof. I am not attempting to convince you (I have found almost everyone here is not interested, anyway). That is why the word ‘MAY” is capitalized. It is a theory, and clearheaded agrees partially as far as lower expectations.
As far as Gov’t funding, I see the collectors in Shul and at my door. I also see the statistics for communities such as (An unnamed town of Chassidim) and Gov’t funding. If this is an abberation, I would expect proof.
Of course by and large everything is good, but I would think that is true in all “torah” communities. The question posed is why there is less divorce among one type of torah community, and I posited that the expectations of marriage are different (perhaps the chassidim are more “torah true”, I’m not saying its worse, just different). So far I have not been told or proven otherwise.
so right: Different expectations. I just hear the “bad” stuff regarding what goes on in NYC when the “Viber” are up in the mountains.
I am willing to learn. What makes a chassidish marriage tick?
I had assumed it was children (lots) and in many cases (both in USA & EY) Gov. benefits and community support (I personally have no problem with that).
Please prove me wrong. But bring hard facts.
BS”D:
An additional point:
I have a friend whose son refuses to go out on dates. He is mid 20’s, and has seen at least four of his friends get divorced within a year of getting married.
Is it possible the shidduch crisis is causing more divorces, and the pressure to “get married” is making people pick the wrong one?
Just a thought.
Haros: Chassidish couples have no expectations from their spouses, and (due to the genders being completely seperate and information sheltering) don’t really care even about some of the items on SJS’s list. Why do you think there has to be a “Shalom Task Force” to educate women that spousal abuse is unacceptable? These women MAY very well think it is the norm! And since the stigma is so great, and they know they can’t survive without communal support (no education etc.), they have no choice but to think everything is good.
Three points:
1: Saying Feminists all want men to be in the kitchen is like saying all Jews believe the Torah is man made, after all a segement of Reform does believe that. There is no monolithic community of Feminists (or Jews).
2: This is a problem with radical feminists in the outside world, but in the Torah world, it really doesn’t exist (with a few major execptions). I think it goes together with “liberalism”, which is what “Here or There” is really against, not “equal pay for women who work” type feminism. I believe most of us agree that “liberalism” is not the Torah MeHalech.
3: Moshe Rabbainu and Aharon HaKohen were “equal”. That does not mean they were the same, it means both of their inputs were required.
I agree with Here or there.
WHAT? G@W agrees to the whole feminist thing?
No, of course not but it is a truth that bochrim want money, and they don’t realize what goes along with the woman having a job that can make some. Also the parents that come along with real money (who expect you to ask “how high, Sir”). The boys decide they really don’t want the money (enough), and break it off.
The Kollel system pushes the women, not the boys in general.
Simple solution: Parents should be responsible for their own children, not the camp. If you feel your child needs supervision, don’t send it to a camp away from you.
oy has our generation fallen!
We are practically ants compared to our ancestors in Europe. At least they knew they had to ask a Rov, we make up ideas and claim they are “True”.
Oy!
EDITED
Hashem made both men and women illogical, or neither would ever get married. Its like the gemorah states, that when the Anshei K’nesses HaGedolah tried to be Mivatel the Yetzer Hara of Arayos, the world stopped functioning, and even hens wouldn’t lay eggs.
Or as I like quoting, “Who ever said the human race is logical?”
Kasha: I suggested you leave the eilu V’eilu arguement aside, I’m glad you did. When you speak to your Rav/Rebbe and you get a complete explanation, I would love to hear what his opinion is (It is at the very least a Machlokes Rishonim, and a very large Hashkafic Machlokes today, which I have no interest in getting into, but would love to hear additional insight, as with this topic, there is never enough).
Hereorthere: Union rules and feminism are two different ideas. If you want to attack unions, I think most people would agree in many cases (with significant exceptions, such as coal mines, electric poles, and other hazardous jobs, but the UAW union or the teacher’s union is way overboard), but that is not related to equal work for equal pay, or other forms of discrimination (such as telling those who can work on saturday that they should not apply).
BS”D:
SJS:
Rashi there says that acc. to R’ Hillel, Hashem himself will be the redeemer, similar to Hashem himself enacting Makas Bechoros (my addition). The Gemorah rejects this due to their being pesukim in Zecharia that there will be a physical redeemer.
Since I don’t know what will happen when Hashem redeems us (BeKarov), I don’t have the expertise to describe what exactly will happen.
Your example is just one of many that show disagreements in Metzius (what happened, does happen, will happen) among Chazal. I don’t feel the need to reconcile the opinions.
SJS: Take a look at Rashi on 99a.
artchill:
Depends. For the children the OP is talking about who want “spending money”, they should be learning in BM, not trying to get “spending money” or work so the yeshiva can take it away as tuition (a horrible concept in general, having children work just for the school to take it away). For students who want to begin their career, or even have a summer job to get resume experience, I am being sarcastic.
One of the best experiences I have had was my summer job while I was a teen. I led a (mostly) sheltered life up to that point, and it game me exposure to so many different cultures and people which I needed later in my work experiences; It can be a very positive summer activity, even as a late teen.
Wolf: Or something simple, like where Korbanos where shechted in the Beis Hamikdash.
SJSinNYC: Fair, but I was talking about Chazal. I wouldn’t act on my own without backup. Arguing without doing differently seems to me like that would be OK.
It’s like saying we see lice grow from eggs, but since Chazal paskened like they didn’t, we will “act” like Chazal Paskened, even though we don’t understand.
That is that mark of a Maymin. Not “not asking”, but asking and doing anyway.
Kasha: All over Shas they argue what the Metzius is, or was (or will be). Eilu V’Eilu is not a simple topic, and you may prefer to defer the questioner to their own Rav, instead of answering in a forum.
SJS: Only Basically?
Kasha: Do you disagree with any of the points that I have made above?
Work? Feh!
They should go learn in Beis Medrish! They don’t have to pay tuition!
Gavra_at_WORK
Can we get back to the point?
Everyone (here) agrees that women should be paid the same as men for doing equal work (If anyone argues, say so now or forever rest your peace.)
Everyone agrees the “Gloria Steinhiem” movement is bad, and burning items of clothing movement is Assur (due to Tznius if nothing else).
Everyone agrees Chazal are NOT infallible, neither are Malachim for that matter (e.g. Hashem killing the Sar Shel Yam due to him rebelling (BB 74B)).
Everyone agrees that Chazal have additional insight into all things, both Torah and not, due to their additional connection to Hashem through his Torah. That does not mean they can’t be wrong, but its not for us puny people to say so (leave that to the Rabbonim).
Whether women should work out of the home is a Machlokes HaPoskim of today, follow your own Rav, but both points of view are legit.
Everything else is semantics.
Is the _Sefer_ off limits? If so, please tell me in one of my posts.
EDITED: We don’t appreciate criticizing the Sefer or the talmid chochom who authored it. (Not to indicate that you have, just exercising caution.) If you wish to quote another named talmid chochom who disagrees with the first on an issue, feel free to do so.
SJS:
That’s not real royalty. All REAL royalty (i.e. respectful) would never wear jeans, which makes it Assur.
Just like all real Scotsmen eat Haggis.
yitayningwut:
First point: agreed.
Second point: That is interesting, as I have asked and been answered that if the tune was used in church during Mass, then it can not be used. If you have a Mekor otherwise (I don’t see your quote in this thread), I would like to see it.
Thanks.
SJS: By me they are called “Jeans skirts”, and they are blue (just like jeans).
I think jeans skirts (Denim) are frowned upon because jeans are frowned upon for men, not because of inherent issues with them.
“But the point should be made that because someone “can” do something that doesn’t automatically mean that they “should” do it (or even that it’s a good idea).”
I would have thought that was obvious. Look what happened in the case in question earlier (the person wanted to move to Chutz). He ended up divorcing his wife.
The right thing or not, no one wants it to happen to them.
SJS: You can (halachicly) pay for someone else to do almost all of these things. Bottle feeding would count as nursing in this day and age.
I do agree with the sentiment, that women should look inward and realize what is not appropriate even though it may follow the letter of the law.
Denim (What is Denim?) may or may not be one of those things.
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yitayningwut:
It’s actually a Chassidish concept that you can be “Metaher” the goysih music; Mashma that the original is a problem (Not (lev) Tahor?)
You won’t find anything in poskim because most of them hold music is Assur across the board, some of them even without instuments. It is the modern non-live music that many do allow, due to it not being “halachic” music (the Gezaira did not encompass music from a machine, not an instrument) (and some B’Davka don’t, as they (Rav Shturnbuch?) hold the machine is an instrument, there is a thread already regarding this idea).
A Woman can force her husband to move to E’Y.
Offen A Rashi Kesubos 110B, from the Mishna there.
Who is really the boss? Hashem and his Torah.
Wolf: What does it mean to be “the boss”? Have the final say? In what?
Reminds me of a quote I read on a different thread in the coffee room a while back (yes its there:)
“The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck. And she can point the head any which way she wants”.
WolfishMusings: But it was always and is Assur, and that never changed.
This (women being in charge of the home and income, vs. the husband only working) did change over time (industrial revolution, two income homes), but the basis always existed in halacha (the concept of “Aini Nezones V’Aini Os’e”).
End story: We follow halacha, and halacha never changes (yes there are halachos that go Basar social norms, but lets save that for another thread). Women working and not taking care of the home (hiring someone else or having the husband do it) is, and always was, within the realm of Halacha. (Noted that Rav Miller holds its a bad idea).
Kasha: A woman is Chayiv unless someone else does it. See the Bais Shmuel I quoted. Men are also Chayiv to feed their wives, as well as providing clothing (and paying tuition for their sons!). Someone mentioned the divorce rate; If only the husbands and wives would worry about their own chiyuvim instead of each others, the divorce rate would be way down (quote from my Moshgiach).
And thank you for the correct quote of Rav Miller.