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Wolf: That exact case is brought down by the Rashbam. That is why the solution is only “to minimize, not completely prevent transfering land.”
Someone went to a relative of mine with a request for Tzedaka, as he needed 3500$ for a brooklyn yeshiva to keep his child in.
So somewhere in Brooklyn there is a school with a minimum 3500$ tuition (no clue if it is a boy or girl).
?”? ????? <??????> [???] ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????
Erechin third perek.
The Chinuch is either talking about an ideal or arguing with a gemarah.
I vote option 1. Ask your LOR for practical use.
Repost (second time).
Missme: we are still waiting for the name of the school.
Sounds like smartcookie is right. Go around the block a bit, then come back.
BS”D:
Wolf:
The gemorahs and Rishonim in Bava Basra (mid 8th Perek) deal with these issues.
1: The idea was to minimize, not completely prevent transfering land. Tzlafchad had 4 portions of land, so it was more than the average Yankel. IIRC, Rashbam says that Tzelafchad was the only case where there was no male heir., but I could be wrong.
2: Once they were in the land, the Shevet got bigger, meaning a smaller piece for each person, making the land lost less significant.
3: In a case where the men of the shevet did have a lot of land (due to Pilegesh B’giva for Binyamin, for example), similar takanos were made to prevent large transfers of land to another shevet.
DH:
I apologize for being condescending, But I noticed in another thread that you are from EY. Totally different mindset, you are not expected to understand why someone would not want to take money from the government.
BTW: I agree with MF. There is no reason why you can’t plan your life around government benefits (Chillul Hashem aside, but that is too “technical” of a topic regarding what would constitute a Chillul Hashem).
Tuition is a different issue and more problematic.
BS”D
Ben Levi: Your quote is just another reason why we have Gedolim in both EY and Chutz. Ein L’Dayan Ela Mah Sheinav Ra’os.
If you owned a TV in Benei Brak, it is different than owning a TV in Teaneck (or the sort).
Thank you.
Kasha: You also have to worry about pushing someone totally off (which is all too easy to do in this day and age). There is also the concept of “Mutav She’Yihu Shoggin V’al Yihu Mayzidin”.
WIY: We can say its not their fault, but it doesn’t make it right. We can tell our children that they never learned, etc. but we who know better, should act better.
Oomis: “Suppose ALL those other people who are paying for these kids’ expenses suddenly decided they, too, wanted to do nothing all day but sit and learn? What if all the fathers decided collectively, “We paid our dues, we brought up our kids, now it is our turn to relax in the Beis Medrash and enjoy learning all day?””
Had to repeat this, as I know of at least one family member who has done this (as soon as the children were out of the house), and Bezras Hashem, I should be so lucky as well (besides my current sedorim).
See my comment in the other “learning” thread to SJS about high school children not being able to handle the truth.
Missme: Please do Klal Yisroel a Tova and post which school only CHARGES 2K per month. My guess is that it is in EY, New Square or Monroe, and is only available for those who live in those towns.
I imagine if it is in metro NYC, they will get a large enrollment boost as soon as you tell us which school it is (which will only help the school).
SJS: “At least when pushing Kollel teachers should be realistic.”
Why? A high school student can’t handle the truth.
tzippi:
That (time delay to get approved, mainly HUD) is why you apply in high school!
Scranton, PA: 2.5 hours to Boro Park (no traffic).
Dr. Hall’s suggestion is also valid.
Reb Papa:
Just reminding you regarding cheeses and Zayah.
Thanks.
Josh31:
Amen, doesn’t everyone else too?
Gavra@WORK
SJSinNYC:
Lets talk Cincinnati or Cleveland. Knock 600$ off the apartment rental (No more then a two bedroom, with two bunkbeds and two children on the pull-out couch).
40K with 6 children will get a decent (net) refund on taxes, call it 4K (50K with 2 kids pays nothing except FICA), call it 46K
Kollel pays 10K, assume that is full parsonage (no taxes, pays for housing). Tutoring/camp rebbe will pay another 5-7K (on or off). Up to 52K after housing.
Health (if they don’t get medicaid, which many kollel couple do and don’t claim it is “gov. help”) lets agree. I think the number is too low.
800$ on food is too small for an OOT kollel family, but can be done if the sacrifice (and if they go to parents for yom tov, it will be less).
So out of 4K per month, they have spent 9+8+5=2.2K
Auto (yeshivish) & gas (insurance is very cheap in Ohio) lets add 200$ per month.
saving for simchos 500$ per month.
Life insurance 100$ per month.
Clothing 200$ per month
we are still “only” at about 3.2K per month, while the couple is making 4K.
I may have forgotten some expenses, feel free to add.
rescue37:
Aderaba, I would think with all the programs out there one can live without ever working, so there should be no heter to earn a parnassah.
SJSinNYC: They can easily make it if they don’t pay tuition (free tuition is a large point that many kollelim (and rabbaim who want their students to go to kollel, at least in my experience) push, especially OOT (Not to say it is a problem, but a fact)).
The girl can also be a stenographer, which is not college, and can be done part time.
She can get married at 30 after getting a large nest egg, and living off the interest.
There is no reason why it can’t be done, but it is a sacrifice. Ein Totah Nikenes Ela B’Me She’Maimis Atzmo Aleha.
Dr. Pepper:
Any numbers on how much it costs to raise a frum family?
Perhaps we can separate by geographic location (i.e. EY, NYC, OOT & Lakewood)?
charliehall:
You bring up a very interesting point B’Nogayah a Ketana, Dam Besulos, and a leap year (V’Hamavin Yovin).
I wonder if when the Rambam Paskened there are no Shaidim, they stopped existing, even if they did exist prior to the Psak?
popa:
Where/what are the shittos regarding baking cheeses, and if they make an oven Milchdik?
Move to Eretz Yisroel. They don’t expect anyone to have money.
aries, I’m not sure if you are serious or not.
I didn’t say doctors, I said surgeons. (work in hospital, usually can schedule, if not will operate as an emergency)
But if that’s what you want, Kol Hakavod. I will not bother you further about it.
“If you learn the Torah and review it with a friend, you’ll be a talmid chacham someday”.
Seriously, the Gemarah you quoted (Brachos 47B) brings the concept of a “Kusi Chaver”, so the bar is not so high.
I’m still waiting for a better definition from you regarding “Kedusha VTahara”, thanks.
rescue37:
See my notes above.
I think we have different definitions of “Talmid Chacham”.
One can (in my book) be a “Talmid Chacham” and not a “chaveir”, “tzurba d’rabanan” or “Prushee”.
SJS: I thought we agreed he is a member of JTS?
Tam: Sorry, still can’t formulate a response regarding Limud Torah based on that. Could you please be more specific?
There are 613 Mitzvos in the Torah. That must have been a typo by rescue.
Tam:
You should know better than to ask an “old man” his age!
And please define “Bekedusha Utahara” before I attempt a response to that.
Tam:
Being that I spent a number of years learning full time, as well as other years going to college between sedorim, I only have to ask myself. And I didn’t go to Touro.
Tam:
1: Agreed, that point was for Derech, not you.
2: Agreed there are multiple definitions.
3: You talk about “Mesikus HaTorah” when I (and you) talk about Limud. First, who says you can’t have “Mesikus HaTorah” the same learning full time as learning full time with going to classes two nights a week (or online), second, I already said if you can’t learn because you are learning a parnassah, then don’t learn the parnassah.
I think we agree.
1: The gemorah in Nedarim (and we Pasken Lehalacha) that you can be Yotze your Chiyuv of Limud Torah via reading Shema.
2: For what is a Talmud Chacham, see Keddushin 49B.
3: I don’t see the connection. Many people who are Tamidei Chachamim went to college.
In the case in point, the bochur is unable to learn with the distractions of learning a parnassah, so he should not go (as I said above).
Yes, every (Male) Jew has a Chiyuv to learn and know Kol Hatorah.
If they know Kol HaTorah, they would be a Talmud Chacham.
Once again, Shaychus?
They take away funds from limud torah?
Tzedaka is a zero sum game, and giving more to one means less to another.
We do have an exclusive shadchan, and don’t seen to have a problem with funds (it comes out of the shul’s general budget).
Tam: Good point, but the change usually happens once they get older, not in elementry school.
aries2756: B”H I don’t live in an area like that. It may be true for you, though.
You could also attempt to get in via the “large donation” method.
Yes, every (Male) Jew has a Chiyuv to learn and know Kol Hatorah.
If they know Kol HaTorah, they would be a Talmud Chacham.
Shaychus?
Tam Mahu Omer:
I would say he went to a much rougher yeshiva then average, not his specific experience. I could name a yeshiva or two that had similar rules in my day, (like daven in your dorm before walking into BM without a hat on) but most of them are OK (I would think).
frum attorney: When you choose a yeshiva for your child, make sure it fits your hashkafic outlook. You don’t have to send to the best, you have to send to the right one for you and your child.
aries2756:
That is what MOFES is for. There is no “starvation” in America (for those who can apply for aid).
Tzippi: That was my point, it can go either way.
Also, for the Naysayers, many doctors manage to finish rounds by 10 – 11 AM if they start early, instead of playing golf, you can go learn.
It might not make Kollel, but 11 – 1, 2 – 6, 7:30 – 10:30 = 9 hours.
Of course it does take a high level of education (and is not easy), as others have pointed out.
Kasha:
A simple answer (3 hours working) could be a plumber, if there is no tuition involved (and in EY, there may not be). Also if you have an education, you could be a surgeon for 3 hours a couple of times a week (maybe).
Mrs. Tzippi: Not sure if you’re refering to the first post or the second. If it is the second, then I agree (which was my original point) to leave it to the Gedolim and say Eilu V’Eilu.
rescue37:
We see this Machlokes in Derech today, as the Lakewood establishment (Rabbi Kotler) is anti-touro and its founder (and the Hamodia insert), while Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky from Philly wrote an article praising Rabbi Dr. Lander (in the recent Hamodia insert).
aries2756:
Why would you HAVE to support your child if he makes the wrong choice? If you do, how will they and their children learn from their mistakes?
And if the parents don’t feel the child is ready to raise a family (not specificly money, but also maturity), then let them not pay for the wedding, or support his shidduch dating.
If you don’t want to punish the grandchildren, place money in a conditional trust that is given to them if they do what you want (either going to Brisk or Yale (or maybe both)).
BS”D
Most American Gedolim do not say “college is Assur” (EY is a different animal). That is not even the question posed.
The question here is if a bachur, who for whatever reason, feels he is unable to balance college and Learning Torah, should he go to college and allow his learning to suffer.
I don’t see why he should go, if he and his non-Nogaih Rov (such as a family Rov, not the one whose yeshiva he would like to join) think college is not an option. As long as he is willing to live with that choice (don’t cry five years down the road that you don’t have a car, blackberry, etc. because you can’t afford it), he should go for it if he feels it is correct.
Also the idea that there can be no free time at all is foreign to learning. One of the 48 things that Torah is Nikneis is “Ma’at Sicha” (limited light conversation) Which the Stiepler said means at least ten minutes of Battala every day, and I have heard up to half an hour.
If the child is smart he/she will still be the top of the class, even if pushed ahead.
If the child is not smart they will still be on the bottom of the class, even if left behind.
My Yeshiva has on many occasions picked the valdictorian/speaker to be the youngest of the class, there was no reason to push them off a year, and they were just as capable as children 6 Mo. to a year older.
Wolf: The original bochur who wants to learn while his parents want him to go to college.
Resistance is futile.
aries2756: A parent can only try so hard. After a certain point, a child has to be allowed to make their own choices, even if that means they will have to live with them for the rest of their lives (for good or bad).
Wolf & Kasha:
Back to the point, what do you think the Bochur should do in this situation?
(as for college, Ein Lo Ela Mekomo V’Shayto)
Interesting discussion.
I would think that to picket in front of a private home should not be done in any example, as to not punish the children and other family members who are blameless in the actions of their parents/spouses.
A Shul (or even store) may be fair game. A boycott may be more helpful then a picket line.
As an interesting sidenote: There was a store which is known for selling lingerie that opened in a frum neighborhood (due to the large amount of mail order business they were getting from the area). As soon as they opened, a Rov got up and protested against the store, and how these things are very important in private, but can not be shown in public. He ended up leading a protest that closed the store. It just didn’t get the walk-in business they expected, and it wasn’t worth losing good mail-order customers.
Da’as Torah knows when to act, not Da’as Hedyot.
Wolf:
It is possible that Kasha means that without the gedarim required it would be an avairah i.e. pure pritzus, but with them, it is a mitzva, i.e., the proper gedarim help it become a davar shel Kedusha.
EDITED
Wolf:
Not to be picky, but I would stongly argue that the shops in question, if done correctly (no pictures in windows, only women allowed in, etc.) is a Mitzva, as per the Nashim Tzidkanios in Mitzrayim.
“Sechar Limud Talmud Torah is received for the EFFORT, not the results.”
Well said.
Its difficult to imagine a son not wanting to support their own parent’s Limud Torah! We know how great it is to support any Limud Torah, al achas kama vkama ones own flesh and blood.
A Tailor (Keddushin 82)
Anyone who disagrees is arguing on Offen a Gemarah.