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Kasha: Huh? That has nothing to do with the topic, and besides, she (or you) can hire a cleaning lady (or wet nurse, and the case of the Beis Shmuel there).
BS”D:
Rav Miller in his books always said the wife is the “Queen to the King”, and the husband should have the “final say” in all matters. For that reason, he held that under no circumstances a woman should be the breadwinner in the household, as it would cause her to act like the King (not the exact language, I apologize to Rav Miller for not getting his exact intent).
The “yeshivish” velt, on the other hand (as per Rav Wolfson, Rav S. Kotler (IIRC) and others) believe that the wife should be in charge of the home and children, so that the husband can be free to learn. This would mean the wife being in charge of issues in the home to allow the husband to follow more spiritual endeavours. This also gave rise to the “Kollel” movement, where the wife takes care of the home and is the main breadwinner, allowing the husband to sit and learn.
edited
fabie: Speak to employees, don’t take their word for it.
I hear you can do well in Detroit.
BS”D:
MDD:
I’m not interested in the argument (there is a Din of “Lasheves Yitzra” which applies to women (for another thread)), but you are not being honest and are misdirecting. The Rama you quote brings a Yesh Omrim that a woman should not be without a husband due to Chashad. If it doesn’t apply to all the single women out there (to our shame), it doesn’t apply to someone who decides not to get married.
Besides, at best the Din is a Gezairah, not an “obligation”.
It depends where you work. There is a reason why Lakewood Rabbaim commute to the City (or spend their weeknights there and only go home on weekends or once during the week, I know of an example). Lakewood doesn’t pay much (if anything. I have heard some schools only give something you can place on your resume, but no money).
If you work in RAMAZ, expect a lot (but good luck getting a job!).
Economicly (and I will get yelled at), make sure that the salary you earn is worth the time spent and the (Gov) benefits lost due to working (instead of Kollel?). You may “earn” more taking care of your children (which is not a bad thing to do, either).
Good luck
TMB: Don’t make this into a “mine is bigger than yours” contest.
One can not trust an unknown “Posek” not to have Negius.
That’s why everyone needs a Rav whom they can trust to pasken for them without Negius. One of course can not Pasken for themselves, under the well-known rule of “Adam Karov Etzel Azmo” 🙂
First of all, the Quote is from E”H 2:11, not 2:1 (primary sources!?)
Second, most Poskim disagree with Rav Moshe in that example (that AI CAN not create a Mamzer by definition, and that AI is Mutar). Rav Moshe claims it is because they are biased and do not use only “Torah” to come to a P’sak, but also their personal opinions!
So, we have Rav Moshe who says its possible (and has happened) that “Da’as Torah” paskened not based on Torah, but “outside influences.
Which leaves us to decide if the Posek is biased or not? Or better idea, your Rav can do his research, and based off of his understanding, come to a P’sak for you.
BS”D
Just as an interesting (and Nogayah) point (and to correct a misquote, as this is not my style):
The gemorah says “Barasi Yetzer Hara, Barasi Torah Tavlin” i.e., Learning Torah is the #1 method to avoid the Yetzer Hara.
The Gra points out that this does not apply to women, who do not have the same mitzva of Limud Torah (which acts in supernatural ways due to its mitzva power). He says instead that the #1 method to avoid the Yetzer Hara for women is to be Tzanua.
(My understanding): The antithesis of Tznius is to stand out (either for good or for bad). When one doesn’t feel the need to stand out, and can be in the background, it removes many of the causes of Avairos. (e.g.) Why say Lashon Hara if you don’t need (or want) anyone to pay attention to you?
The same idea applies to clothing. Don’t try to stand out and have people look at you (men or women), you will avoid Kinna (of you onto others and vice versa), Taava (of yourself onto others) and Kavvod (that you are the “best dressed”, more designer, or “most tznius”), which are all C’V “Motze Es HaAdam Min HaOlam”.
Bezras Hashem may we all (men and women) Zoche to be Tzanua, as the Pasuk says “Hatzeyna Leches Im Hashem Elokecha”.
Trying my best:
Not halachic, but is the current reality. Also who decides how much hishtadlus is required? I hear Wal Mart & Target are hiring.
When we label someone “frum”, ….
Don’t go there here, but start it in a new thread. You will be surprised….
Trying my best:
Agreed 100%!
There are also halachos regarding the community supporting such children, though (you don’t, and have them (the children) collect by doors to make ends meet, while publicly shaming the parents to provide for their children). Not to say that they should be applied, but they do exist.
tomim tihye:
Don’t get me started on union backed pulic school teachers! At least they deserve Hazard Pay 🙂
Every job has its perks. The perks for teachers (in general) outway the lost salary, otherwise they would not work there.
On another (and moe importaint) note: I am worried about you paying interest on your tuition payments. Does your school know this? I would hope that they would allow a payment plan so that Ribbis is not paid (even to the CC company). Perhaps if you would put up some collateral they would feel better about it, but financially, paying recurring costs with a credit card and not paying off every month is a recipe for disaster.
BS”D:
Mazel: I don’t think that the book you quote has to do with Tznius:
Daughters of Dignity: African Women in the Bible and the Virtues of Black Womanhood [Paperback] Laverne McCain Gill ?
If you are talking about Sefer Ba’akavot Rochel, it specificly states it’s both a hashkafa and a halacha book, and the two always get confused (as per the author’s ideas, not Hashem’s) to make a book like this practicly worthless for halachic purposes (not haskafic, but hashkafa (especially for tznuis) is variable).
Yeshivaguy1: The book you mention has been quoted to possibly Over the Issur of Ba’al Tosef (way over my head, just a quote from a Rav) and was strongly suggested by many (including my Roshei Yeshiva) NOT to be used (due to it not being normative halacha). I wouldn’t worry about it. In fact, I am currently attending a weekly shiur in which one of the focuses how it is Assur to “go machmir” in these issues, and the bad things that the Rav himself has seen occur due to being Machmir beyond the levels of halacha required in Innyanei Tznuis.
This does not take away from the issue being discussed here (short skirts) which is a (halachic) problem. Perhaps if you see a girl like this a woman relative should offer to take the girl shopping (and pay for it) and buy tznius & stylish clothing. I can’t imagine a girl who would turn down an offer for new clothes.
With all the government programs, plus support from the in-laws, I can’t imagine its worthwhile to leave kollel for less than 60K.
I guess thats why many people remain in kollel in our current society. Not only do they want to learn, they can’t afford to get a job!
tomim tihye:
Do you have a “real” job? Does it pay your full tuition (for multiple children)?
If you do, I am surprised you compare a teaching job (off fri afternoon & Yom Tov, short commute in most cases, parsonage, tuition discounts, SUMMERS, home for children when they get home from yeshiva even if you have to do some work at home (no need for a nanny), discounts at stores, and much much more!) to a “real” job (and there are exceptions).
If you don’t, then I will disregard your comment.
A Couple of points:
1: An open container of milk, even if the container is from a CY brand, if not watched by a Ne’eman, is very questionable if it continues to be “Chalav Yisroel”.
2: To volvie’s point of only holding by One posek: Rav Moshe Wolfson is known to disagree, but I have heard this argument from others as well. Even if you are correct (questionable), if your Rav Paskens like one in one example and one in the other, you should follow your Rav (and he has the right to do his own research and decide to whom he is Noyte).
3: Proof is not the issue. You don’t need proof, you have Rov (Think Teisha Mochrim Basar Kasher). The only question is does the milk fulfill the Gezairah of the Rabbanon to only drink milk that requires a Yid watching the milking (which has nothing to do with Rov).
4: This ignores the issue of surgical Traifos.
(Disclosure: I strongly believe in CY, even though it really is inferior to “Chalov HaCompanies”, as others point out)
squeak: TIC.
But you do bring up a good point of start up capital, which may be needed (except for my plan, which would use an existing school?) and is not available.
Squeak:
Assuming no mortgage (owned or borrowed building), elementry school, one teacher, and no scholarships your numbers could work for a lower tier school (depending on insurance and legal compliance costs). But those who could pay more would want more (smaller classes, air conditioning, heat, projects and trips, gym, etc) which would create adverse selection to the others who can’t pay.
By community school, I did not mean community FUNDED. I mean similar to my previous idea, that the schools can send their scholarship children to a lower cost school (such as the one you describe), thereby saving in total costs to educate ALL children.
Besides, all of us are obviously OK enough with the status quo that we are not running our own school.
SJSinNYC: I actually like the idea of paying extra for extra classes. My current school does do that (to a certain extent) and it can be expanded. You pay for college, why not AP?
Also, if the 30% was told they can not attend the normal BC prep school, they would jump at the 8K school. They just don’t do it because they know they have another option.
Squeak: Agree with SJS that the amount is too low. Try closer to 9K per child and soon the money runs out. Your numbers (after I submitted) don’t include many fixed costs, as well as a normal salary for teachers once you take away their tuition break.
Volvie: That’s why we need a community funded school. (In addition to your own good point) What if the child is 1 of 10, and the parents can’t take the time to help? Or a Yasom?
It’s difficult to ask everyone to pitch in (as some can’t), and once you make exceptions, everyone expects to get one.
volvie: Of course. That is not even within the realm of possibility. The poor CAN NOT be allowed to go to public school, Chas V’Shalom.
SJS: who said no? The current schools, the full paying parents or the subsidized parents?
SJSinNYC: Why give them a choice?
Given the choices of sending to a prep or non prep school for the same costs, 99.9% will send to the prep school.
Now if you are telling me that the parents would have sent to public school, that is a different (sad) story.
But that’s why they call it blackmail and bluffing.
EJ: But no one is willing to tell a child that they can’t attend due to cost problems.
How about this for size: A “public” jewish school, open to all, funded by the schools in the community (tax deduction passed on to the parents?). 40 child classes, etc. but no or minimal tuition.
Parents like SJS who care about the education of their children will work and pony up the extra funds for a “current system” yeshiva, while those who can’t (or wont) will no longer be able to send to the current Prep school system, lowering the student count in the more expensive schools as well as total cost of the system.
puppydogs: Negotiate, pay or move.
Its not raised costs, its less money going in (due to more people on tzedaka), and the inability to reject anyone due to non-payment.
ROB:
To get this totally off on a tangent (and I have no interest in the argument between wolf & volvie), there is an interesting Machlokes (IIRC) between the Achronim if eating something that is Batel is a bad thing (due to timtum Halev) or Good (due to one showing emunas chachamim that the item is now mutar). I believe the Lashon of the Shaarei Teshuva is one who does not eat it is “Karov La’Apikores”.
As a “side point”, Mothers day should be supported by those whom their mothers care about it, as if not, they will be Over the Mitzva of Kibbud Em.
feivel: Nice to see you 🙂
Jothar: Well said, but to each alone to make that choice, not for us to make it for them.
I find it interesting that at the same time, we have a thread that says to judge those who go to hotels for Pesach, but not to judge those who ask for Tzedaka.
Volvie: exactly why a middleman is the best way to go (if you can trust them) as per BB 10B. None the less, there is still a concept of the Ani himself going from door to door (see there).
estherh: That is 100% Shelo K’halacha, and I am surprised you did not learn so at some point in your education. There are specific examples when you give without asking (food), otherwise you are Mechuyav to ask and investigate, and then be makdim some before others (BB 9A, SA Yore Dayah 251 sk 10 & 11).
Ask your Rav what you should do.
Thought out, but off the mark (I think). One has to see the Tzarah in the face of an Ani so he will want to give, as well as actively do the action of giving. Your method is better for a middleman (such as the Agudah) distributing its funds.
BS”D:
1: There are many Talmidai Chachomim who make parnossah as mashgichim, etc. over Pesach, and that is a main source of income. I would argue that going to hotels IS an act of Tzedaka (giving them a job) and a Mitzva, even excluding “Simchas Yom Tov” (Begadim vs. not having to go crazy cleaning & cooking, anyone?). There is no chiyuv to lose output by giving to others, if anything it is better to work for it (Nedarim 49B).
2: As far as Yanky’s comment about chomesh, there is a reason why the gemorah disagrees with you (with specific exceptions), even in “bad years” like we have now. B”H the money is NOT needed for people to survive (unlike the collections made during WWII on Shabbos, for example). Before being so sure, ask your Rav.
BS”D
Wolf: What exacly Niv’im are is also subject to a machlokes Rishonim, whether they are the words of the Navi’s understanding of the nevuah or the word of Hashem telling the navi what to write.
The practical Nafka mina is if reading navi without understanding it is a mitzva of Limud Torah (as Torah is, since it is the direct word of Hashem).
Navi was NOT given at Har Sinai, and if fact the Gemorah explicitly states (I think also in BB) that if not for the jews sinning, there would be no Navi other then parts of Yehoshua dealing with how the land was divided.
Ben Levi is correct regarding the Machlokes. Interestingly, one of the Rayos that the Torah was not given with all the words at Har Sinai are the paradoxes created by the Miraglim and Maase Mire’va, and why they would have been attempted by Moshe if he already knew the result from Hashem. (thought Wolf would like that one).
Hashem Is Everywhere:
Its Mefuresh a Shaarei Teshuva (IIRC) regarding Bitul Bisheshim, that if one is machmir not to eat it they are “Karov L”Apikores”, since they don’t believe in the Chachamim.
Hashem Is Everywhere:
There is a very chashuv Talmud chacham who has been posted here by others as a “gadol” who uses the word all the time (refering to Reshaim). I don’t see your point.
Also, making a distiction because its not your language is silly. I can curse in many languages, does not being English make it OK?
hereorthere: What if a Rav says you shouldn’t… but its not Assur? (happens often, such as (an extreme) “Menuval B’rishus Hatorah”)
Wolf: I think that was a “Purim Vort”
volvie: As I pointed out:
1: the parental exemption is only if the parent is present/furnishes by themselves.
2: I wouldn’t be sure of convincing a jury of the religious exception. Rav Shmuel’s statement could be used as evidence against, and then you would have to disown him and bring your own expert who would be willing to testify against him. If I were a non-Jewish DA, I would bring this one to trial (unless there is precedent that you are withholding), especially if the minor (or someone else) is damaged. In that case, the insurer will sue you for damages due to furnishing, and you will have to prove the exemption in court.
3: The religious exception is during the rite, not as a general exception. Again, I would press the case.
Everyone loved Tinkertoys. I hear they still make them in real wood.
bombmaniac:
I hate to be picky, but Google Docs can be replaced by Office. The extra monay is worth it to avoid the Nichshal.
Hereorthere: Pay an internet cafe to use their computers (in a public place, so there is no Yichud) better than letting it into your home.
BS”D:
Please note that in NJ, the parent of the underaged person MUST be there at the time of furnishing in order to not violate the law.
1. a. Anyone who purposely or knowingly offers or serves or makes available an alcoholic beverage to a person under the legal age for consuming alcoholic beverages or entices or encourages that person to drink an alcoholic beverage is a disorderly person.
This subsection shall not apply to a parent or guardian of the person under legal age for consuming alcoholic beverages if the parent or guardian is of the legal age to consume alcoholic beverages or to a religious observance, ceremony or rite. This subsection shall also not apply to any person in his home who is of the legal age to consume alcoholic beverages who offers or serves or makes available an alcoholic beverage to a person under the legal age for consuming alcoholic beverages or entices that person to drink an alcoholic beverage in the presence of and with the permission of the parent or guardian of the person under the legal age for consuming alcoholic beverages if the parent or guardian is of the legal age to consume alcoholic beverages.
2C:33-17. Availability of alcoholic beverages to underaged, offenses
” No person shall sell, deliver or give away or cause or permit or procure to be sold, delivered or given away any alcoholic beverages to 1. Any person, actually or apparently, under the age of twenty-one years; “
As we may put it, the Issur is not on the Bochur, its on you for being the “noysen Michshol”.
A parent may provide their own child with Alcohol, as per section 65C:
2. A person under the age of twenty-one years may possess any alcoholic beverage with intent to consume if the alcoholic beverage is given:
(a) to a person who is a student in a curriculum licensed or registered by the state education department and the student is required to taste or imbibe alcoholic beverages in courses which are a part of the required curriculum, provided such alcoholic beverages are used only for instructional purposes during class conducted pursuant to such curriculum; or
(This law is for the minor, not the furnisher).
If someone else provides they (seemingly) can be prosecuted, but I am not (willing to come out as) a Lawyer. Of course, one can first give the drink to the parent and then have the parent furnish to the minor.
NJ also has an exception for “consuming alcoholic beverages during a religious observance, ceremony or rite”, but risk Purim on that on your own health.
I look forward to Volvie or anyone else’s response.
volvie: Kol Hakavod to you if you can. Each person should know themselves.
Both issues (drinking and unfiltered internet) are similar:
It is a question of placing one’s self in a place where they can C”V be Over many Avairos.
The difference is Purim is once a year and unfiltered internet is every day, but both are dangerous.
If one can be Omed on themselves not to be Over anything (and daven Maariv with Kavanna!) by drinking then Kol Hakavod (If you are over 21). Otherwise, the Rema is someone who you are already somech on for many things.
However, since it has become the “in thing” to drink, all else seems to fall by the wayside. If only the “chumra of the week” was not to drink! (and Kavod to Rav Shmuel who is trying to push it).
hereorthere: I believe that is part of the “in town” thing, to shop only in “heimish” food stores as to not be tempted by Assur food. (Correct me if I am wrong). If they can afford it, its not such a bad geder, especially for small children.
Ben Levi: The Mesorah of many Jews for thousands of years has been to Daven Maariv (and say Krias Shma) with Kavanna (even on Purim!).
As the song goes “Shikur Iz ah Goy”. The gedolim of Europe used to spout Chiddushim when “drunk”, may we only be Zoche to get to their level.
oomis815: I’m glad we agree. But we weren’t discussing your daughters, were we?
But we are the “Yotze min HaKlal”. The Sems (with the one or two exceptions) are very strong influences (a nice term for what they really do).
oomis1105:
Their daughters decided. And the girls are not willing to marry without it, and the boys they are looking for are not willing to marry without support.
The gemorah actually discusses this. It really depends who can learn better (Keddushin 29b). I would like to see the results of showing your daughter’s date that Gemorah 🙂
PY:
How about taking your children to the local library and having them do research there?
I actually would echo HaifaGirl, many yeshivos do not prepare you for the outside (if you need to go), CC will.
That being said, you still have no mastered a derech HaLimud in 12th Grade. There are many yeshivos out there with many different drachim. Be openminded and do a lot of research.
If you have decided at age 17-18 that you will be learning for the rest of your life, and refuse to prepare for any other outcome, then please ignore my comments, go straight to Ponevitch, and immerse yourself in limud Hatorah 24-7.
It is so sad that people don’t give shaddchanus.
I guess betweeen food, tuition and heat, shaddchanus takes a back seat.
May Klall Yisroel have enough Parnassah in these tough times that everyone should be able to follow Minhagei Yisroel.
And may those who already suffer not be made to suffer more because of the lacking of others.
BS”D:
It really depends on the situation. In most cases (B”H), the person is old and sick beforehand, and they are really in a better situation for themselves (like Amasa D’Rebbe who davened that Hashem should take his neshama) in the Olam HaEmes. There are many gemorahs regarding Nechumim, you may want to take a look.
AZ: A list with dates or money back would be better as well (as a shadchan for the shul). At least you know what you are getting into.
I am not in the “Lakewood Circles” (OOT), I know of the FT solution from (one of) the shaddchanim involved.
“Money talks. and individual girls should look to hire private advocates as that will give them a better shot of getting quality dates and thus getting married.”
And it will just hurt those who don’t have (but perhaps that is too bad?), but as a klal we can’t promote it. You speak of “appropriate compensation”, but for those without, they will be without.
At this point we agree 100%, except I feel this expectation will hurt the poor (call me a liberal), and you do not.
AZ:
All of your points are true.
But this is still not the best way to get the help to those who need it the most, and it very possibly will hurt them.
And adding a Chiyuv Mammon is no help (as you agreed earlier)….but if you want a non monetary “Token of Appreciation” (such as a thank you card) that sounds good to me, just like if someone tried to fix your car but couldn’t.
And yes, people have free will. If they don’t want to shaddchan anymore, so be it. I believe we will find a better person or method.
“Anyone will a child in the parsha will quickly run and beg them please please don’t……. “
I have never heard of these people(OOT?), but even so, after a week someone else will take their place or an alternative method of dating (back to the rebbetzens?) will be found. People may even marry local, or drop their demands for “the top bochur in Lakewood” (a good thing :-)What do you think happened before these shaddchanim came on the scene? People still got married. And there was “less” of a crisis (if any).
Ask your Rav. The halachos of Beged Isha are not simple, but there are many siddodim for it to be maater, especially on Purim (were people know to look twice).
Vice Versa (women wearing pants) is a different issue (as I’m sure you know).
AZ: Thank you for agreeing that it should be up to the parents if and how much, and not an absolute rule.
I’m happy we have found common ground.
Spreadsheet, with a seperate account.
I also include every donation. It makes it easy to compare to what was given last year.