gavra_at_work

Satmars who live in the land between The Mediterreanean and The Jordan River what passport do they hold?

I’ve always assumed they either held Hungarian (or other outside country) passports or did not travel outside the country.

SpiderJerusalem: The Bear holds of the typical Rav Yoel Satmar Shitta that the Medinah is the Devil Hees-self.

That being said, I (and SpiderJerusalem) don’t understand (and if Bear would answer that would be great) why Satmar has not left the Medina and gone to Ever HaYarden or Suria, both which have the Mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and are not controlled by the hated Zionists.

Usually your posts make sense,

Health, I want to thank you B’Rabbim.

mdd: In defense of ZD, the Torah says that Monarchy is a poor form of government. What he is saying (IMHO) is that Chazal could not discribe what Zman Moshiach will be (if it would be a democracy) since the concept of a democracy did not exist yet.

Let it be said though that Pashtus Moshiach will be the Melech, and the Gemorah uses the term “Nasi”, or Prince.

Health: With all due respect, I believe you are incorrect. Had the situation remained the same way that it was in the 50s (or even the early 90s), where there were many working Charaidim, Charaidi Kibbutzes, and the Charaidim generally stayed in their own communities this still would not have happened. Back then, it was a big deal when the government drove a piece of a generator (IIRC) on Shabbos, because the Charaidim (together with the Dati Leumi) cared that the Yidden in EY followed Halacha. Now, they don’t care about the “seculars” (I hate the term “chilonim”) except as a cash cow.

Unfortunately, at this point, with the explosion of the Charaidi population (Boruch Hashem), both the secular & Dati Leumi feel “crowded out”. This is due (IMHO) to the additional subsidies that have been passed by the Charaidi parties, as well as pushing Charaidi (not Halachic) ideals into the public sphere, such as pictures of (Tznius) women on busses, as well as the takeover of secular communities (by physical force if neccessary). If we would be dealing with the Charaidim of the Chazon Ish, Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach & the Ponevicher Rov, we also would not have gotten to the point at which we find ourselves. The Chazon Ish would have found a way to make Shalom with Netanyahu, Lapid & Bennett (just like he did with Ben Gurion), but now there is no one to do so.

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phrum: Of course. However, That might not be what the Chilonim think is best. It would be interesting to see what their faces look like when they see what they have been fighting.

Besides, who says Moshiach will be Charaidi? Perhaps he will be Dati? What will the Gedolim say then?

I hadn’t the slightest idea what the point was. And now even less so. 🙂

Yup. You could say the point is that it is easy to call someone a bigot, but most of the time there is a reason behind it.

Ah, back to that? The dati are just as bigoted as the chareidim, what with your mechitzos during davening, not counting women for a minyan, not counting women as witnesses or dayanim, grooms buying brides for silver, etc.

PBA, come on. That wasn’t the point and you know it. The point was that the non-charaidim are not practicing Jim Crow. I do agree with you on the Dati as well.

Most of the world will see the persecution of the Hareidim (denying social security benefits, denying passports, seizing their money) as religious persecution.

We will see.

You do realize that everything you just called “bigotry” is all pure halacha, right?

Correct, which is why I said I said “(although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way)”. However, an outside observer who sees this would conclude that there is discrimination and bigotry coming from the Charaidim.

akuperma: and now they will be able to work on the books without having to go to the army. That is (one of the reasons) why it is a win.

Health ?

PBA: In a welfare state, yes. I’m still not sure what your point is. As we discussed elsewhere, someone who has wealth can not “self-declare” themselves Charaidi. The only way to tell is if they don’t have the wealth to be redistributed (for example, they learn full time). The government can then decide not to redistribute to a specific sect or group as per their own self interest.

It is time we realize that our relationship to the zionist rulers of Eretz Yisrael is identical to that of African Americans in the United States prior to World War II.

Yup. I just seen that Charaidi lynched on the street pole!! Next we’re gonna scare off that Charaidi girl Na’ama who just wants to live in our town and go to school!! Then we’all gonna trash that Charaidi store that opened in our neighborhood that sells what we don’t like. Don’t they know this area is ours and they aint welcome?

(oops).

The more apt comparison (unfortunately) is that the Charaidim are practicing Jim Crow. (although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way) This is with their “separate but equal” access to the Kotel, “separate but equal” bussing & exclusive neighborhoods for Charaidim only (to the point where they regulate what visitors are allowed to wear and physically assault those who do not comply).

It is bigotry, pure and simple.

truth: because the state forces them to pay taxes.

Taxes pay for services. If you want clean water, sewage and garbage removal, roads, etc. you need to pay them.

I hate taxes too.

Health: Where is the “I told you so”?

ari-free: You can leave, they just won’t take you back.

akuperma: The whole point is that they will not be arresting anyone. If Charaidim can only learn Torah B’Osher, then that is their problem. That they will now be forced to follow the Brisker Mehalech and not take the Medinah’s Shekalim? Big deal.

Besides, you discount the Torah too much. Have Emunah that there are people out there who actually believe thay can be Koneh Torah the way Chazal says to do so. (Pas B’Melach Tochal…)

I suppose you can say that unless someone wants them to visit a place in chutz la’aretz and they are unable to leave.

I imagine they would be allowed to leave if they renounce their citizenship, but even that is a small price to pay in exchange for being allowed to learn in peace.

I doubt very highly that a single “gadol” has seen this. Probably a lot of “Ketanim”, but no “Gedolim”. That is why it is in print.

That being said, since you two (or one) believe it is Shmad, what are you doing about it?