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I would rather be OTD then think that Judaism is a class system.
Of course it is. From the Mishna in Keddushin:
?,? ???? ?????? ??? ????–?????, ????, ??????, ????, ???, ??????, ?????, ?????, ?????, ??????. ????? ???? ???????, ?????? ???? ?? ???. ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??????, ?????? ???? ?? ???. ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ?? ???.
That’s not to say one can not rise above their caste via becoming a Talmid Chacham (similar to a serf joining the priesthood in the middle ages), but it certainly exists in Halacha.
There are two issues that are be co-mingled and are really separate.
As I have pointed out, they are one and the same. Expect cuts in benefits, especially those which were passed by the Charaidi parties (note the article I quoted above).
“Btw, an Arab state would never pay to keep all those Chareidim in kollel forever.”
At best they would extort money from other yidden to allow them to stay as beggars (Dhimma), and let them be as a source of income. At worst they would line them up and shoot (gas chambers are so 20th century), after giving the women over to the fighters as prizes until they are “used up” (like the Tutsis).
I apologize for the run on sentence. The words “which was promoted by Gimmel, as the main beneficiaries were Charaidim” are parenthetical.
There is something else called “kitzvat yeladim”. This has nothing to do with being chareidi. It is an across-the-board monthly stipend that goes up according to the number of children the family has. It is not major money, but it helps. A family with 8 children gets about 1850 NIS per month, which is about $425-$450.
Now that the Charaidim will be out of the government, this benefit, which was promoted by Gimmel, as the main beneficiaries were Charaidim, as well as other similar benefits, will be cut significantly.
gaw: Will Arab-Israeli citizens also lose “First Type” benefits if they opt out of Army service, or will they discriminate only against Torah Jews?
I would think that the same rules would apply (Lapid complains about the Arabs as well, and Bennett would see it as an opportunity). Some sort of “national service”, army, or lose your benefits (including, if they really wanted to chap the idea (but they wont), the right to vote).
mogold: Fool. That was a warning (which only a fool would ignore), not a threat. And it doesn’t come from me. If you don’t think the Zionists would do it, you have your head in the sand. They have killed for less.
Finally (for akuperma), I would like to see Charaidim complaining to the international human rights orgs, and getting a good lesson in Eisav Sonei Es Ya’akov. Hopefully they wont then require a lesson in the manner of Jacob de Haan (because the Zionists will do it if pushed. They’ve done it before.)
I was told by my grandfather once that folding your ???? on ????? ??? is a ????? for ???? ???.
And I was told that it is a much bigger segulah for a guy to wash the dishes, sweep and clean up after shabbos.
🙂
3. Whenever someone actually addresses the exclusion of hareidim from the mainstream economy, the hilonim scream “religious coercion” as in “What do you mean I can’t touch my female coworkers” or “Why can’t we have company meetings at my favorite restaurant so I can have my beloved pork chops” or “Why can’t we schedule our work schedules to match when the markets are open in America”, etc.
This is religious coercion, but not the first point.
Point #1: This would be a sexual harassment case in the US (unwanted touching), and should be in Israel as well. Nothing to do with religion.
Point #2: The company can serve whatever food they want. No one is forcing you to eat. I have sat & drank water (from the bottle) while my co-workers ate pulled pork (and yes, it smells really good). That is called life & standing up for your beliefs. Forcing the Arab or Israeli to eat Badatz (because you know that is where you are going, Rabbanut is not good enough) is religious coercion.
Point 3: If a company needs to be open when the US markets are open that is their right. No one is claiming that McDonalds has to “accommodate” me by no longer serving cheeseburgers. That is religious coercion.
Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine.
Bezras Hashem.
plonis3141: The reason why these benefits that (supposedly) apply to everyone are so high is because the Charaidi parties are well aware that they will get most of the money. It’s like the Kiryas Yoel School district, where they had to try three times to finally get something in that could apply to a single other jurisdiction. Yes it didn’t say KJ (or “for Charaidim only”), but everyone knows that it who it is meant to benefit.
That is part of the “way of life” support. Lets see what happens in the new administration. Personally I hope they keep them, but I don’t know if that will happen.
The reason this distinction is important is that if the army ties government benefits to willingness to serve in the IDF, the first type will probably continue, and the second type will disappear (at least as far as hareidim who don’t serve in the army). However these are separate types of programs.
I believe the point is that those who opt out of the army & national service would lose their “First Type” benefits as well.
GAW, there’s a lot of room between the loafers and R’ Yitzchok Elchonon. One doesn’t have to be a R’ Yitzchok Elchonon for his Torah to be a z’chus for klal Yisroel. The loafers will indeed have to give din v’cheshbon, but their inability to be otherwise productive is because of the medina’s rules which aren’t designed to accommodate them.
I agree except for the point of “accommodation”. If the Hesder Yeshivos can manage, so can the Loafers. Those who learn B’amailus are “a z’chus for klal Yisroel”, whether they will become the next Posek or not. Those who loaf don’t stay because they are not accommodated in the workforce, but rather because of societal pressures.
This comes to the point that akuperma (on the news article re: Rabbi Lipman) feels that the rest of the Israelis need to “accommodate” the Charaidim by making all of the business lunches Kosher by the standards of the Eida, and enforcing a Tznius dress code by law. I hope that we can can agree that such a request would be rejected appropriately. That is not “accommodation” but religious coercion. US business lunches are mostly not Kosher (in my experience). Either I don’t eat or drink only bottled water.
To those who claim the kollel and “way of life” support is minimal: I assume you then do not have any issues with removing such support? I would like to hear what Plonis & Yael (and not Joe) think.
Mods, thanks for the support. Argumentum ad nauseam is a standard Joe tactic (and one of the reasons why he is unable to have a civilized discussion).
Good story and very true.
Each Charaidi in Kollel should learn like Rav Yiztchak Elchanan, then we can discuss. Until then, no one wants to pay for people who want to work, but can’t due to societal pressures, and therefore loaf around in the CR.
GAW – I’m upset at Ben Levi’s defense of certain people above. There is no defense to make those decisions without the backing of one of the main Bais Dins here!
There is no defense. The REAL “Rosh Yeshiva” of Lakewood Inc., Rav Aaron Kotler Shlita, in on record saying that he was mechuyav to back Corzine for his past support (AKA GELT). His brother then had to go to Rav Shteinman to get an “Ishur”, which we have to assume was given without all of the facts on the table (as it was retracted soon after).
None of this is in dispute, no matter what posters have to say on the matter.
If I were a girl, I would request Bellatrix. I was extremely impressed by “The King’s Speech”.
That being said, Ollivander is not yet taken.
Shraga18: Note he didn’t deny it.
My conversation with Health went well, and I think that I agree with his final analysis of the facts (may as well go for the money as legally recognized same gender marriages are inevitable). Even though I don’t personally agree with the choice made to support someone like that (and most Rabbonim, including Rav Shmuel etc. would disagree as well), I understand it better. As ZD said, it will be interesting what happens when Quinn comes up for election.
yekke2: There are examples where the Gemorah talks about non-jews that have a Bris Milah, this is one of them.
If I were cheeky, I would say Pashut (Al Pi Rav Chaim (which probably isn’t true anyway)) that one could tell by the extra tooth that Yidden have and non-Jews don’t. Even if the teeth fall out, the root holes are still there. 🙂
They never were Pro his Toeiva -agenda. They didn’t openly go against him and wanted to vote for him because they figured his other Maalos outweigh this one Chessoron.
That makes it even worse, that they (The Lakewood “vaad” and its controllers) sold out to the Avoda Zara called Mammon. Corzine got the “Yeshiva” half a million dollars for a “Holocaust library”, so they had to repay in votes.
Had it been help in areas of Halacha (such as a bill regarding Metzitza, or Shmiras Shabbos, etc.) then perhaps there would be room to discuss.
Joe, you didn’t make the statement that I requested.
Sorry, I can’t have a civilized discussion with you (and you and you and you).
Rav Kotler expressed no such position implied.
Execpt for supporting the Pro-Toeiva Jon Corzine. That is an expressed opinion that was pro-toeiva by a “Gadol”.
Joe, if we continue to discuss this, you have to agree explicitly in your next post to only use one screen name in this thread, and not to copy & paste long paragraphs from other websites, specificly the defunct FrumTeens. Otherwise I do not plan on responding to anything that you say.
You disagree with Rav Kaminetzky and the other named Gedolim. Which specific rabbi supports your position?
Assuming he counts, Rabbi Malkiel Kotler.
Because the ???? is not ???? between different types of Jews or non-Jews; the ???? talks about yidden and ovdei kochavim. The ???? (or at least the ???????) would have to tell us that if for one reason or another (either ?????? or even ????? e.g. brothers died from ???? – there is no ???? ????, or if the ???”? is for some reason circumised, this ??? doesn’t apply! It is ???? enough for the ???? to say something.
???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? <????? ??????> {??????} ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? <????? ??????> {??????} ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? <????? ??????> {?????} ???’ (?????? ?) ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? (????? ? ??) ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? (????? ? ?) ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????
Nedarim 31B
The only type of leader who will save EY is a Jewish Erdogan – a non-isolationist charedi who will make it clear that EY must be Jewish. That means you can do what you want at home, but in the public sphere, there are no avoidable halachic violations. Pork – sure – 500% VAT outside of a zone in Natzeret where no one can buy with an ID card that says Jewish. Treyfe wine or liquor – 1000% VAT because EY produces plenty of good kosher stuff. Operate your factory on Shabbos with no pikuach nefesh reason to do so – sure – only in a zone somewhere in the Galil that is mainly Druze and only with non-Jewish workers – and with a license that is quite costly. Drive on Shabbos – sure – with a permit that costs at least 1000 NIS per month. Weekend – begins Thursday night and ends Sunday morning etc, etc, etc. Toeva – parades are banned, clubs are closed, do what you want in private. Meanwhile, we’ll see what causes this illness and use taxpayer funds to find a cure so we can be laor goyim and put an end to toeva once and for all. Non-Jews posing ss Jews – a sum that is enough to start a new life back where they came from and a one-way ticket for all who want to leave.
I actually mostly agree with this (but do not suggest threatening Nuclear war). Selective taxing of “unwanted” products does a good job of raising money in the US, and since religion is in your ID in Israel, misrepresenting that should be similar to a felony in the US. There are “Blue Laws” that are based on religious ideas, even in the US.
I think that this should be part of the “compromise” offered. The State becomes much more Jewish, and in return the Charaidim buy into the state.
Too bad that it will never happen until Moshiach.
I once heard a speech from a Rabbi in which he said that before Mashiach comes, all false beleifs will need to be crushed, so Liberalism, Conservatism and even these greek philosophies which are false will go the way of Socialism and all failed ‘isms’ before it.
And as I like to add, “Yeshivishism, Charadism & Chassidishism as well”.
If you think you can convert them en masse then you may have something, but this is not age of empires.
HOYOHOYO?
HOW DO YOU SPELL YASHRUS,btw?
YAS..R…MONEY.
Correct? 🙂
The (incorrect, as per Rav Miller) answer is that Limud HaTorah overrides many other Halachic considerations.
The most likely course of action is that those who object to serving will not be imprisoned, but will be treated like anyone else (e.g. Palestinian citizens of Israel) who doesn’t serve in the army, and that any government support for yeshivos will be tied to military service. If the army also decides to accomodate hareidim in the military (at the very least in special units that are conducted according to halacha), the crisis will pass.
I agree. I also believe that Yesh Atid (or Ein Atid, as Bear puts it) would agree as well. The main issue is the welfare, not the army (which, as many have pointed out, they don’t really want to include Charaidim). Perhaps the compromise will include “community service hours” (not Sherut, but something that can be under the auspices of a Charaidi Rov) for a year or two, which will then allow the Charaidim to legally work without having to join the army.
2) America and no other country will grant tens of thousands of residency visas to Israeli citizens.
The PA would. It would be an amazing PR coup for them. “We allow Jews to return, Israel has to allow Palestinians to return”.
IIRC (it was a long time ago), the best learners where I went to Mesivta were offered “advanced” english classes on Sunday evenings, and if they kept up, were allowed to stay in the Bais Medrash during the equivalent english classes over the week.
In the US minority parties get seats on committies and things like that and have some influence there. In a parliment the only power they have is the speak in the parliment how evil the ruling party is.
Actually, the big difference is locational represenatation. In the US, the member represents a specific location, and has to vote for what they wnat (or be voted out). This makes them:
1: responsible to someone other than the party
2: Needing to work together with their region on regional interests (look at all of the NY representitives, both R & D, push for Sandy relief).
3: More willing to compromise, as the “party” will not remove them (although this is beginning to happen as well, especially on the republican side. Joe L. proved to the Democrats that it doesn’t really work).
4: Looking out for themselves instead of the party. This allows them to “cross party lines” when they feel it to be the right thing for their district.
This seems like a frum version of One Flew Over the Cukoo’s Nest!
There are the Chronics who will deny and yell Anti-Semite to anything that goes against them. There are the Acutes who are in voluntary denial and arguing for the sake of it. There are the Staff and Trolls on this thread too.
This thread is pointless. 1 Vote for closure.
I’ll admit to being a Troll in this thread. Sometimes carrying a big stick & demanding some Spicy (red) Herring with TamTams appeals to me in a primitive way.
In exchange for some (CR) Herring, I’ll give you my vote.
The gedolim have a vision about the situation that we may not.
Personally, I think many of the chareidim in Israel are not strong enough to withstand the temptations of life outside of the yeshiva. Much like the haskalah movement in Europe pre WWII.
That is what I have said previously in this thread as well.
sushee: ONCE AGAIN, you are an Avaryan for not testifying in court that there was no Yichud, no Triple locked doors, etc., which you KNOW for a FACT. I respectfully ask the mods to announce that such a person as yourself comes under the following RAMBAM in Chovel U’Mazik 8:12:
?? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????, ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????; ??? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??????. ????? ???? ????? ?? ????, ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????? ???? ???????.
(This has a din of Tzibbur because of its effects on the Satmar Community.) As such, it is MUTTAR for all to physically force you into court to testify on behalf of NW.
I await your testimony.
Am Shavur (or Am Shilem) could have joined his friend Lipman and run on Lapid’s sinas chinam list.
Bear, I’m actually surprised that you believe as such. Yesh Atid is very much of the Satmar Shitta of not giving money to Avrachim from the Zionist entity. I would have thought that even though they are all Shreklache Zionists, you would think Yesh Atid was the best of the bad.
PBA & ZD: Not the time & place. Let’s stick to the topic of the OP. If you would like, start a new thread.
The $10 bill has Michael Hillegas on it.
GAW: Can you bring even an example of Rav Chaim disagreeing with the Steipler or of Rav Shmuel Auerbach disagreeing with Rav Shlomo Zalman — especially on a large notable issue?
I am not knowledgable regarding the Israeli Gedolim and their shittos, but was just using Rav Chaim as an example. Perhaps you could help me out here.
Edit, thought of one possible. What does Rav Shmuel Aurbach hold regarding Hetter Mechira?
Every shittah in this debate probably can be traced to a single source.
Certainly, anti-zionism is central to Satmar, but it’s far from their sole reason to exist. It’s a part of their vision (or version, for the cynics) of pure, unadulterated Yiddishkeit, but not the only part.
DY: I don’t think you understood my point. Chassidish Rebbes are much more likely to follow the shitta of the previous Rebbe because of who he was (and his status of Rebbe flowing from his predecessor). This is opposed to a Litvish Rov (e.g. Rav Chaim Shlita), whose status is not dependent on who his Father or FIL were (even though they were Gedolim). Therefore someone like Rav Chaim has the latitude to disagree with those before him, while a Chassidish Rebbe has much less room to disagree.
DY: I’m not saying they shoudl be Chozer (after all, the whole Chassidus is Minhag, and they HAVE to follow what was done, or destroy their entire reason for existing), I’m just saying that it doesn’t count as a separate shitta, since they only follow what Satmar Rov did, but did not come to that conclusion themselves.
gavra_at_work: As someone who learned in R’ Bender’s yeshiva, I can attest to that! I well remember on my first night there (for dormitory orientation), R’ Bender spoke about the security guards who were there for our protection. Many of them were black. He said that if he ever heard anyone saying anything racist about them, there would be immediate consequences, even if it wasn’t said in front of them. He said if he ever heard someone say the “N” word about them, it would mean an immediate expulsion, no questions asked.
I have much respect for Rabbi Bender, and this just adds to it.
They are trangressing. It’s called Messiyah L’dey Aveira.
And why do you think this doesn’t effect our politicians/Gov.?
You don’t think the “Frum” guy from the East Side wouldn’t have brought the Toeiva agenda to a vote if he knew his constituents would have him recalled?
Unfortunately, certain grandchildren of Gedolim have decided that Money is more important than scruples. Baruch Hashem the Olam decided correctly not to listen to these people.
Rav Avigdor Miller predicted this would happen. We are losing our way becuse we ourselves have destroyed what the Torah says a family should be, with Bungalows, Separate vacations, and other excuses for the man not to be the breadwinner and King of the home.
snowbunny3318: The unfortunate answer is that the further you get to the “right”, the more it becomes “us vs. them”. Them can include non-Jews, Jews who are not frum, non-Chassidim/Yeshivish/Yerushalmi, Tzionim, or even anyone not from your specific Chassidus. This has nothing to do with Racism, which while being a problem for RW Yidden in general (just because they believe it is a Mitzva to not do PC, which lumps together respect for other races), it is getting better with more knowledge of Frum Yidden of Color.
I have heard that in Rabbi Bender’s Yeshiva (which is at the forefront of chinuch in America), they discipline children for using the term “Shvartze”. If only it were true throughout the Yeshiva world.
sushee = Joe?
Besides, you never responded as per why you won’t help NW by testifying to his innocence. Since I haven’t heard that you will testify, I have no choice but to classify you as an Avaryan.
I am coming from a learning backround does anyone have any ideas for me with a work from home job
Homeschool/childcare your children, and allow your wife (who I imagine is more educated (since you said “yeshiva background”)) to be the main breadwinner.
Only one?!?! Let’s see. The original Satmar Rebbe zt’l. The next one zt’l. And the two nowadays. All the Poiskim in Satmar communities.
The Brisker Rov zt’l and all his children – most of them Gedolim.
This brings up a very good question. Should a Rov who holds their shitta because their father held that shitta be counted as a separate person, or only an extension of the father?
The famous mishna in Ediyos (5.7 and I’m sure elsewhere) says:
???? ????? ??? ????, ???, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ????. ??? ??, ???, ??? ?? ???? ??. ??? ??, ??? ????? ??? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ???????; ??? ????? ???????, ??? ???? ???????. ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ???????; ???? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ????? ???????.
None the less, the children stick to their guns. Does that make it a “shittah”?
You mean since you have no belief in our Gedolim -you need s/o who you consider a Godol to make such a statement before you believe it.
On the other side, anyone who promotes service is not a Gadol. If only we could find a True Scotsman!