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gaw,
It makes sense that it wouldn’t be different than any other s’chirus. If you hire a secretary to work for you (and she does), could you exempt yourself from paying her because no kinyan was made in a cheifetz?
By s’chirus, you either have prior agreement, or the original Ratzon of the Socher to pay. Here, it seems that is not the case.
What this is similar to (IMHO) is a summer worker where there are “unpaid internships” as well (such as a Shaddchan that works for free). In that case, the requirement to pay should be made up front.
I’ll repost:
I don’t think money is a stopper for items that you don’t want your children to have; they can always steal if they really want something. I believe the critical point is to communicate with your child and explain why your rules exist, and be up front about the rules. If your child has good reason to make an exception, accept it.
However, be firm about “my house, my rules”.
DY, thanks for the plug.
1: Middos
2: (related) Someone who knows how to treat a Lady (I know, I’m old-fashioned)
3: Someone who looks like he can be an active parent, and wants to be an active parent.
4: Someone who is committed to being a Yarei Hashem.
5: Someone whos plan is not “take Tzedaka/government funds/ Shver” for the reat of his life.
6: Someone who has a plan on how to pay full tuition. Ezehu Chacham HaRoeah Es HaNolad.
I like MiddlePath’s response; I am not as eloquent.
Mr. 80:
sometimes a teacher can be so frustrated, feeling she has no way whatsoever to control her class, that she acts out of desperation, and probably doesnt realize just then how wrong it is.
Sounds like the teacher “lost it”. If the teacher actually hit a girl, she would be fired. This is just verbal instead of physical abuse.
RedNails19: Horrible. I would talk to parents & principal. This is no worse than blackmail, and the school should know what is going on (and probably fire the teacher).
In conversations with someone familiar with Choshen Mishpat, it’s clear that shadchanus is like any other profession and is entitled to compensation, and can have a beis din enforce that.
Interesting. I’m unaware (although granted not a Rov or expert) of any Kinyan or Chiyuv created by making a shidduch suggestion (although I could be wrong). Doing actual work would create a Kinyan in the chefetz, or a chiyuv based on the parties’ prior agreement.
Shadchanus doesn’t quite work that way. They HAVE to pay up!
Why? I believe even Bais Din would not say so.
DY: All professionals that I have dealt with have told me what they will charge up front. If they can’t give me a number but expect to be paid, then I will not use them (I tried it once and got burned, and decided it was not worth fighting the extreme overcharge).
All in all Of Course is “right”, but I think “on the ball” has the best attitude here.
I don’t think money is a stopper for items that you don’t want your children to have; they can always steal if they really want something. I believe the critical point is to communicate with your child and explain why your rules exist, and be up front about the rules. If your child has good reason to make an exception, accept it.
truth or consequences
I dunno
Gavra, the lakewood roshei yeshivas were not straight with everyone.
I can’t talk to this, only sigh.
John:
I wish I was a liar as well. I really do.
That is just not were I see the efforts of the Frum political parties in EY going. They compromise on the other stuff, such as withdrawing from Gazza, or transporting equipment on Shabbos, but not on funding for Yeshivas. And the parties get there orders straight from the Gedolim.
shein: That is only because Toeiva is not the same issue that it is here in the USA. The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva said to vote for Corzine.
apushatayid: Yes
OK.
Satmer shitta. OK, that makes it more understandable.
optimusprime:
If you follow that shitta, yes.
Ferd: Maybe and maybe not; I just see what they fight about and what they don’t.
Rav Miller ZTL would have been Moche, but he is not here.
The Wolf
Yes.
BTW:
Saw the beginning of the thread. I’m not happy about it either. Calling someone Frum who lives in Eretz Yisroel “people who hardly care about kashrus or any real Jewish values” is not just Motzei Shem Ra, it is just plain and obviously non-factual.
I don’t want to argue either point, but agree that the thread should be edited (IMHO), as the person involved is not anonymous.
I thought their stuff was Shatnez?
I have to think about it 🙂
Can one assume a chumra for oneself if he feels it will help enhance his Torah observance?
Can one assume a kula for oneself if he feels it will make his life easier?
No and No. The first is Yuhara, the second needs a Rov to Pasken.
The Shitta of the Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel is that money that is supporting learning takes precidence over all other political matters. How can you blame the Agudah for following the P’sak Halacha of Gedolim like Rav Elyashiv?
Perhaps their learning IS more critical than defense of marriage?
Scotch warms the cockles of my heart.
So does Bourbon, Tennessee mash, Rye, Vodka, Irish whisky, and best of all, shlivovitz! (AKA all types of paint thinner).
Other drinks just don’t do it. They just don’t reach the cockles.
LOL
Neve Ya’akov
i hope noone will take this post as a psak and be lienent, i am just giving a zechus for those who do.
Sounds weak, but OK. I can also be “Limed Zechus” for the mixed swimming folk as well, if you would like. R’ Meir was able to give S’varos to Mattir a Sheretz as well.
btw i dont like teenagers making their own money too much because some of them think they could spend it as they wish, without any approval from their parents
Interesting point that might make a good thread. I’d have to think about it.
You must be Joe, then.
He is the official CR mascot. One should be obsessed with the team mascot. When the Phanatic comes out, the crowd roars!
My children are in the range of 7-30. All of them have attended various camps Baruch Hashem throughout the years. I have never had to keep them home because we couldn’t afford it, Baruch Hashem. I only said that it was difficult to arrange. I may have sent to sleepaway later than others but they get their eventually.
So no solution is needed.
I have another suggestion. Go to your local shul and start asking for Tzedaka during Chazoras HaShatz. Or better yet, suggest that your child do it.
I’ve decided this is too harsh on my part. My point is that the child should earn the money needed if they really want to go.
Wolf and GAW: How many children in your neighborhood are sitting home this summer , not going to either a day camp or sleepaway camp, with both parents working???
1: We have a “low cost” day camp (I think it runs about 75$ a week) run by a local institution.
2: I think you have hit the heart of the matter. School with tuition discount is viewed as discounted babysitting, and people expect the same from camp.
Might I suggest if you and your school feel that camp is critical, ask them to fit the bill. I have a relative that did exactly that, and the school paid for the teen to go to camp.
How old is the child in question, and what do you do erev Yom Tov when the same problem pops up (no school, but parents are working)? Some additional info might help with a real solution.
So what do you say to a child when they come to you and ask to go to camp because all their friends are going and they want to go also but you just cant afford it?
I have another suggestion. Go to your local shul and start asking for Tzedaka during Chazoras HaShatz. Or better yet, suggest that your child do it.
So what do you say to a child when they come to you and ask to go to camp because all their friends are going and they want to go also but you just cant afford it?
No.
In addition, perhaps you are living in the wrong neigborhood if everyone else has wealth and you do not. This issue will continue to raise itself.
Joe: Since you were there, what did he say?
(P.S. I didn’t think you lived in Teaneck of all places!)
Lakewood must have a bug issue (I guess the area around Lakewood is infested with bugs), so they should watch for them. B’Derech Klal in the rest of the US, it is not a problem.
Dr. Hall: “Going to the Mikva” is a euphemism for what they do afterwards.
Kilo: IIRC there was a big uproar when a “mainstream” Brooklyn well known Rov spoke in Teaneck and said cheating on taxes is Muttar.
Mike: I find that Joe is allowed some latitude because he is part of the fun, almost like the mascot.
Just say “LOL, Joe” and move forward. But you will be missed.
gavra paskened it’s okay to shop around for rabbis by the shaila. 🙂
Did not. and I am a Gavra, not a Posek.
yeshiva guy
I have metioned many times having a mechitza and not just being separate is a machlokes HaPoskim (Basicly Chassidim vs. Litvaks). It stems from a question regarding what happened by the Simchas Bais Hashoeva.
Let me remind everyone of the famous gemora with Rav Yochanan, BB 91:
???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????
We are not on that level.
Depends how it is prepared.
Don’t you mean there is more than meets the eye?
gaw – Most of what you mentioned aren’t kulahs, they are called “Moirah Heter”.
Exactly the point, and why they are paralell to Chumras without basis.
Rav Moshe’s mirsas hetter on cholov stam applies to any civilized country with laws similar to the US.
If the laws and checks are researched, compliance is measured, and the Poskim in that country say so, then yes. Otherwise, don’t assume anything.
Thanks, Joe.
Using Cholov Stam products that are made outside the US.
Davening after Z’man since “Chassidim do it, why can’t I”.
Wearing skirts that cover the knee sometimes, if you pull it down (or worse).
Unmarried girls going to the Mikva (better that way than not, but still bad)
Lying to get benefits (I know, it was on the other list too).
Letzanus of Yidden not like you “Leshaim Shomayim”.
I’ll probably think of more as time goes on.
He has extra (sheepish).
And I’m not taking Eeees, but EEEES. It is different.
Personal feeling?
That is where we get into this problem in the first place!!
Anyway, my shitta is to try not to argue with a mod, so its all yours.
the use by some of: “H-shem”
has been explained before. no one is claiming it to be a chumrah, and certainly not a Halachah
it is merely a personal heirgush.
and should certainly not be denigrated.
personal heirgush? heir gush? Herr Gush?
not sure what you mean by that.
Personally I think it has basis from a geomorah (as I said), but have never seen anyone else say so.
Joe: It was taught in one of my local schools. I was shocked as well.
As far as the first point the “Yated Shidduch forum” was a plug (I try to read it every week and enjoy the Q&A), but the point of needing an “official shaddchan” is true.
Joe: Depends which side of the fence you are on, and where the peer pressure is. But you are correct, and you should start a similar thread (which I will add to as well Bli Neder).
Another Chumra!
Writing H-shem (although it could be argued it has basis in a Gemorah Nedarim, I’ve never seen that as the argument for it)
Wolf:
I have no EEEES 🙁
but I’ll borrow one for this thread,
Thanks for your generosity,
Gavra_at_workE