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Avram in MD -“I have no interest in responding to Health.”
Of course not – the truth hurts.
“What I will say to you is this: the snippets of what sounds like a news article he quoted made no mention of the maternal mortality rate in U.S. hospitals, which is significantly higher when interventions are utilized, and higher in comparison to other developed nations that promote home births for healthy pregnancies.”
Prove it.
“While he framed his argument as pitting a mother’s convenience and comfort vs. infant’s life, if anything it really is a question of mother’s life and infants life. Whose blood is redder?”
Even if your statement that hospitals increase the mortality rate of the mother is true, your conclusion is totally false.
There is such a low mortality rate for the mother it no where comes near the mortality rate for infants. So do you care about the baby or just a remote possibility that the mother might be better off in a home setting? To me the answer is obvious!
“By the way, the ACOG probably lumps all “planned home births” together, including those who have little to no screening or monitoring, which I have certainly never advocated. And I wonder what definitions the ACOG used to attribute an infant’s death to the birth itself.”
Yea, all the home birth websites bring down this “so-called” argument. This is why I postulated that the home birth would only cause one out of a thousand deaths, instead of saying 14 or 21 deaths (2 -3 times the infant mortality rate), – to make up for all the other reasons that you could excuse because of whatever. Still, one out of a thousand is significant to me!
wanderingchana -“Health, you’re a doctor and ACOG is the lobbying organization for OB/GYNs – no one expects that you or they are going to be supportive of women choosing anything but a hospital birth.”
The fact that I’m in the medical field has nothing to do with my opinion. I’ve never worked in OB/Gyn besides being trained in it.
You’re much more Nogieah – being that you obviously prefer to have your kids at a birthing center or something similar.
“This “other finding” – of a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate – are we talking about something like the difference between 0.02% and 0.06% (six hundreds of ONE percent) in a meta-analysis? While that would certainly represent a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate, it’s statistically insignificant (not to mention intellectually dishonest).”
The only one who’s being intellectually dishonest is you. The mortality rate in this country is about 7 kids out of every thousand. So let’s say ONLY 1 out of this thousand is due to home birth. How in the world is this not significant? Let’s say you convince 1,000 Frum women to deliver at home -at least one of those kids will Not make it due to being delivered at home. And you call this Insignificant?!?!?!
“An OBGYN is trained to perform surgery”
They are trained in all aspects of Women’s health, not just Surgery!
“- they are not there for most of the labor anyway, and if they do show up and it’s taking “too long” (i.e. they are missing dinner, ball game, etc.),”
Some do and some Don’t!
“things “start happening” – continuous monitoring, induction with pitocin, which becomes “failure to progress” (or, failure to be patient), which becomes a c-section…”
These arguments can only be used against doctors, but since when aren’t you allowed to have a Midwife in charge of your care in the hospital?!?!?
“If a woman is properly and thoroughly educated, low-risk, with a back-up plan in place, no one needs to judge her decision to have a home birth.”
Yes, her decision should be judged because she’s putting herself before the life of her child! This is No small matter!
This is the most recent statement from the ACOG:
So it basically boils down to – Whom do you care more about – yourself or the baby?!?!?
Cindy -“(But I will tell you to reread your last post. Alot of your points were kinda pointless.)”
This is Not a comeback. If you actually have a logical reason why you disagree -feel free to post it.
tb -“as opposed to the rest of this thread”
Excuse me. There is nothing Non-serious about my post.
cinderella-
“If the shoe fits…” – wear it & if it’s too tight wear it anyway, & complain to e/o about it!
“So then according to your logic, anyone getting sick is no big deal because you can just pump yourself with painkillers.”
Some things just have to be SPELLED OUT -If there is Medical Help for the Problem (Monthly Pain) then you wouldn’t get the Pain in the First Place. The Medical Help I was talking about Wasn’t To Take Painkillers!
“But you cannot deny that there is a moderate level of discomfort. And a good amount of nausea and pain. For 9 months.”
No there isn’t! Most of the time women are just fine. This doesn’t mean that they don’t feel body changes, just they don’t feel sick most of the time! How many kids do you have?
“1) Women get this too. So just add this onto the female pain list.”
So therefore? What’s your point?
“2) Men don’t get these conditions every month. Neither do they have them for 9 months straight.”
And again, neither do Most women!
“So you disagree?? Also, I don’t get your point.”
Exactly -I disagree! Women are Not Entitled to Moan & Groan for every little Pain!
“Yeah, but that’s irrelevant because a headache is a headache for males and females. You don’t see us complaining every time we get a headache or cramps or whatever.”
Yes, I do!
“And as to your coworker who went home because of a migraine. So?”
An example of how Most Women handle Pain!
“Just because women handle pain easier than men doesn’t mean they can’t sometimes complain and break down.”
Well I disagree. I think Men handle Pain easier!
“The same way that sometimes, some men are able to hold back from making everyone around them serve them on hand and foot whenever they have a toothache.”
This is News to me -I don’t know any guy who makes e/o around them serve them hand & foot when they have a toothache!
TCG – Tina is right. The incompetence reminds me of Mumbai/Bombay anti-terrorists forces – clowns.
Welcome to the 21 Century – E/o should have armored vehicles like LA & Detroit have. LA’s CAT can destroy an apt. building. Then they could have fired tear gas & tranquilizers to capture him alive.
As far as the Death Penalty, even Israel doesn’t have it.
And the US hardly uses it. You can thank the liberal mentality for this one.
cinderella -“Health, first of all ,a migraine is way worse than a regular headache.”
You’re right, even though I’m in the medical field -I don’t know the difference. And btw, I get migraines! The first day of that rotation in that ER, I was sick as a dog. I think I even had fever. One African Amer. nurse saw how bad I looked and told me where to get some drinks. I was about to collapse from dehydration. B’H those drinks helped me. Noone else cared.
“Also, your mice example is totally irrelevant. I’m taking about pain. I admit, I have a massive phobia of spiders and anything else with more than 4 legs, but thats fear, not pain.”
It’s totally relevant. I was showing the difference between men & women!
“But take a woman for example. Every sngle month, we go through 3-5 days of cramps and headaches.”
Some have it worse than others & there is medical help for the bad cases.
“During pregnancy, a woman is naseaus, in pain… And that’s for 9 months. Then, at the end of that, she has to push a baby out of her.”
Noone is nauseous or/and in pain for most of the pregnancy, unless there is underlying pathology.
“Now, lets look at a man. And then, let me see… oh right. I believe that’s it.”
You’re right again. Men never get conditions like gallstones, kidney stones or any other condition that causes pain.
“So women are entitled to moan a little bit once a month. Men are not.”
So who decided women are entitled? I guess a woman?
To paraphrase a song -“Who died and made you Queen?”
“Well, they a but that just makes them wimps. Suck it up, and be a man.”
And who decided that if men complain that they are wimps? A woman?
“Actually, I vote we change that to “Be a woman.”
Women aren’t allowed to vote acc. to Rav Herzog Ztl.!
soliek – Excuse me. I’m avg. height & fat!
PBA – Not fair! E/o is just cursing you out. Not one commented on me that I’m totally against anyone giving blood.
AOM -Hey, I believe in defending myself and people should carry non-lethal weapons. I discussed many times here with the laws in the US to use firearms even in your own house will cause more damage than good. If they ever change the laws, then I’d say buy a shotgun for protection at home and at school.
Magnets are a waste of money!
TCG – I wish I did know one of his personalities in real life.
In one of his personalities -he is a single man. In another he is married with older girls. I’d like to know this personality because I’d like to get remarried and maybe he could give me a daughter of his.
No One Mourns The Wicked – I don’t have a TV. I don’t know where you live, but here in Lakewood there is no difference acc. to them between a TV & the Net. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones!
PBA – They think you’re controvesial?!? I think noone should donate blood!
E/o -“What -are you crazy?”
If there was no blood -the Gov. & Pharm. companies would finally make a suitable substitute. All the fake blood so far has always been rejected by the FDA. Now I smell a rat. It is possible every single one was dangerous, but it’s also possible that the FDA is playing politics. If you don’t know already, the blood business is a big business. Blood Banks sell blood products for a lot of money. These blood banks have tremendous clout with the Gov.
E/o -“So what’s the difference? Who cares whether it’s real or fake?”
Using fake blood will save much more lives. It can be readily available, like in pre-hospital or battlefield settings. Storing it should be much easier than real blood. There is no chance of anyone getting a infectious disease from it, as opposed to real blood. Real blood even though much safer than it used to be, still poses a slight risk. And it would reduce medical costs. That means less medical insurance premiums. And no, I don’t own any stock in these Pharm. companies.
Yenta -“And if the mouse came that close I would kick it. Screaming won’t solve the problem.”
You are one of the few. (Tomboy perhaps?) Most would yell, scream & run.
“And pain I mentioned above? I get that every month. I could either stay in bed or I can get over it. Life doesn’t stop because I’m doubled over in pain. Does it take me a little longer to get stuff done and am I more quiet? Yes because my mental energy is elsewhere. But I have school and house duties that must be done. And besides, I’d rather be in pain but distracted than home in bed focused on a pain that’s not going anywhere for a couple of days.”
As a nursing student you should know about medical options to deal with this.
“I still think it’s unfair to say one sex is more tolerant.”
Unfair -what does this mean? Who decides this? And even if “unfair”, it’s still true!
“Isn’t it lookEd down upon for men to show emotions and perhaps men just hide pain better?”
I never hide my emotions and I definitely don’t hide my pain. Can’t speak for others.
“Women express feelings alittle more easily.”
And they tend to exaggerate more easily too.
“Would it be fair to say asians have less pain because they are more stoic and are taught showing pain is a negative?”
I’m not Asian.
“It’s all in how the person tolerates pain, not based on gender”
But the female gender mostly can’t tolerate pain, as opposed to most males!
SaysMe -“Don’t stereotype all women!”
Not all, just most. I think I read an excerpt from DF from her book “Unorthodox” that she describes when she was in high school – she got up on her chair & screamed “mouse” and e/o followed without even seeing a mouse. So this freaking out about small animals is Not my imagination!
PBA -For s/o unemployed any time is worth it! Also, you can find places that pay for whole blood.
PBA -You can actually sell your blood, if you don’t believe in donation. You don’t have to drink it or spill it.
oomis1105 – The kind of woman I was married to expected to be waited on hand and foot when she was ill, but when I was ill -I was basically ignored or told heal thyself -you’re in the medical field.
hudi -“Health – I am more comfortable using a butterfly for blood draws. I am fairly new on the job and this works best for me. I guess this means I am incompetent.”
Nothing to be proud of.
“I would rather use a butterfly than torture my patients with a needle and vacutainer. So, until I gain competence, I will continue using a butterfly. I hope you are ok with that. Everyone has to start somewhere!”
You should have learnt both in school. Medicine is Not supposed to be OJT (On the Job Training). It might not even be your fault, but the fault of your instructors. And you should have never been hired until they observed all your techniques. It is Not proper to only use a butterfly, no matter how many people do it!
Btw, what is your profession or degree in?
Yenta -“re bugs, mice, etc, BIG DEAL. I’ve had to deal with mice stuck on mouse traps, went to camp in the mts for 8 years and had to deal with bugs, frogs, and all other lovely stuff up there. the prob is fixed but last winter i was on my bed when i saw a mouse run from 1 corner to the other. and no i didn’t shreak bloody murder. i went and got a mouse trap along the wall. oh and I’ve dissected dead animals. good times :)”
And let’s say the mouse was walking next to you in the room -would you climb a chair & shriek?
“so its not fair to say 1 sex is more tolerant of pain than the other”
Of course it is. How many women get incapacitated around the same time of month, every month?
There is such a thing as an Amazon woman, but this ain’t the avg.!
SaysMe -“If there are no men home, most women will deal with it themselves.”
Nope, they call a male neighbor or relative.
“With rats and mice, men just call the exterminator!”
Nope again, I went out to buy poison and put it down. Lots of people can’t afford exterminators.
BTGuy -While some of these alternative therapies are effective -noone who practices medicine can tell the pts. to do them.
I alluded to this in another topic. The practice of medicine is basically guided by our laws. We have sent people into Gov. office that have written “Sue-happy” laws. If a Practioner would tell s/o diagnosed with a disease to do an alternative therapy, he/she is opening themselves up to be destroyed. They can’t because these alternative therapies aren’t considered Standard of Care!
BT -“Being a man, I can only imagine the kind of pain women have to submit to during childbirth. It looks to be pretty insane, and I am not sure any man has something to compare other than if they stuck their finger in an electrical outlet, and kept it there a few hours, to say the least. lol”
Wrong they say kidney stones are similar -some say more, some say less. B’H, I haven’t given birth or had kidney stones.
“And while the example you give is no doubt true and valid, it cannot serve as a paradigm to prove that it is generally regarded that women are not only smarter, but they are stronger than men in many ways.”
This here sounds like you are trying to score some brownie points. This isn’t a Date.
I obviously think you’re wrong. How many women do you know that deal with bugs or mice/rats when they are indoors? Or do they scream -stand on chairs -and call for a man to deal with it?!?!
cshapiro – You’re right. Go hire a cleaning lady from the Frum ladies that do this service. Do you know why they charge $9 or more per hr., instead of 6? Because they have to pay the Frum lady $3/hr. I actually was doing you a favor only asking for Pesach hours.
If you want me to find you a cleaning lady now, I’ll take $3/hr., just like the Frum women do, for as long as the cleaning lady works for anyone that I set her up with. You obviously don’t know how things work in Lakewood.
cinderella -“take 5 Advil and go on bedrest.”
If anyone takes 5 they will end up in bedrest at the nearest ER.
cinderella -“Ha! When men get even a tiny headache, they moan, take 5 Advil and go on bedrest. Contrary to popular man beliefs, women are the stronger sex.”
As a med prof, I empathize with women during childbirth because it’s painful; even though I know of a Tzaddekes that doesn’t get any pain.
But your statement is far off the mark. I was once training as a student and a woman working who was my teacher got a migraine. She had all her other fellow workers crawling all over her like she was having a brain tumor. And mind you – almost every other pt. in the hospital ER was more serious than she was. Then she took the rest of the day off. She isn’t a nurse and neither am I. I’ve never seen a guy take off in such a situation. Esp. that she was able to give herself any drug she wants. Totally -the weaker gender!
cshapiro -It shouldn’t be a problem. I give the Mods permission to give you my email and we will work it out. But it’s gotta be worth it for me -like a few hours a week till Pesach.
yentingyenta -“oh come one health. i agreed with on something, thats not good enough?”
Oh, you finally agreed with me on something -I should make a Shecheeyunoo!
“but if a peds tube gets enough blood for lab results, why would the lab scream exactly?”
Because it takes a longer technique to process those tubes. So to do it correctly (by butterfly usage) you’d always have to send the mini-tubes to the lab and they’d freak out because you are constantly giving them more work than needed. So therefore I don’t even use those mini-tubes, except in rare situations, eg. babies, elderly which are very difficult sticks, etc.
“i did Google it but didn’t get the results i wanted. how much smaller are the peds tubes than adult tubes?”
Much smaller. Search BD microtainers & microcuvettes. If this isn’t good enough ask your pediatrician, if you still use one, even if you don’t, I’m sure your siblings have one, next time you go to him/her to show you what they are.
30 years ago a Poisek told me it’s Muttar to copy music tapes (Jewish). I don’t know if he would admit to it nowadays.
And there is such a thing as Mezonos bread.
I also wrote a Teshuva here in the CR saying there is nothing wrong with eating Sofek Yoshon.
PBA – I’m sure I have many crazy stories, but this one taught me a lesson. I was in a Shul in a strange city, before e/o had cells, Davening Maariv. I was long in my S’E and all of a sudden the lights went out and the door closed. I calmly finished Davening figuring I could just get out in the dark. Anyway this Shul was part of a hotel -so I made my way to the door but you couldn’t open it from the inside and the lights were outside too. Banging did nothing -it wasn’t near anything – in the basement somewhere. So I’m thinking I’m going to have to spend the nite there. Anyway, I decided to search the whole Shul if there was a way out. I searched and found a Janitor’s room. It was like a long closet with cleaning supplies in it. I searched the room and there was a door which was locked, but it was only locked to the outside. Since I was on the inside, I was able to open it. It led to the outside of the hotel -so I was freed for the night.
See my post under copying music.
Bored214 -“i cant say you’re posts were so helpful soliek but i must thank you for the good laugh we had! the point is i dont want a c-section but thanks anyway!”
Once upon a time, (not too long ago), us in the medical field didn’t care whether babies were born breech. Along came the “Sue -happy” laws and hardly anyone wants to deliver a breech anymore because there is almost no chance of getting sued doing a C-section as opposed to delivering breech. (We are own worst enemies because of our crazy laws. These laws change the way people practice medicine.)
But if you refuse to have a C-S, there are still practioners who know the procedure of how to deliver breech. G-luck finding one.
cshapiro – Oh, I’m serious. I can’t afford to pay one & I need one – Pesach is coming.
Goq -“I am aware of some of your pekel Health and i empathize with you don’t i deserve the same from you?”
And I do empathize. My point above of -“A person should Never Ever give up on getting married!” is “Kol Zman ShehaNer Doilek Efsher L’Taken. It’s never too late. A person should keep trying as long as they can.
yentingyenta -“one thing i learned a long time ago is that hospitals hate spending money. hence the incompetent staff.”
It’s not just hospitals -it’s a lot of people/companies in the medical field. How many Dr.’s offices have competent staff?
Money isn’t everything; even though some people believe it is.
“and what are peds tubes? i only see regular tubes with the butterflies”
They are just smaller tubes – meant for babies & small kids.
They fit in a pediatric tube holder. Google it for pics.
“one last thing, no need to toot your own horn.”
If not me, then who? I have hardly ever gotten any compliments from any of the posters here.
the goq -“the fact remains that there are people in our community who may never marry.”
Yes, but we will never know whom they are until they pass on.
Yenta -“however, i disagree on the butterfly usage.”
I will not fault you on your opinion because you are just a student. But it is incompetence to always use a butterfly, even though I know many do. One of my phlebotomy books states that you have to use pediatric tubes with the butterfly. (Noone does -not even me.) The problem with regular tubes is you can cause the vein to collapse and/or cause hemolysis. So if all they are drawing with -is the butterfly -this is incompetence. The purpose is for only in difficult situations. And if you do decide to only use butterflies and only ped tubes, even for adults, the lab will have a cow and you will be fired before you can say -“Hi, I’m the vampire.”
“i still think its better the tech can get it one shot and not get the pt annoyed she missed it on the first second or even third try w/ a needle & vacutainer.”
Sorry to say, most competent practioners (like me) can get it with one shot using the needle, on most pts.!