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I assume technically they are culpable under Japanese law even though the bochorim are themselves innocent victims who unknowingly carried something they weren’t aware of. But the fact they are in reality innocent victims who are being persecuted and prosecuted, ought to tell us to what lengths we must go to free these brothers of ours.
David –
What do you mean?
Fine but Brooklyn in area is greater than twelve mil by twelve mil. Rav Moshe follows the Shulchan Aruch and requires a daily shishim ribo (see 4:88 regarding the beaches). Consequentially, we still fall short of 3 million.
How do you know that you still fall short of 3 million (using the aforementioned criteria) in a 12×12 mil area subset?
There is no logical reason to not include the census under-count anywhere. The Census Bureau has always acknowledged they have an under-count. They are mandated by the U.S. Constitution to make an actual enumeration every 10 years, for the purposes of allocating Congressional representation. By Constitutional law it must be an actual count, not an estimate. If they miss people they are not counted. Now the Census Bureau also makes a seperate estimate of how many people they believe they missed, which cannot be used for Congressional allocation, but is published for statistical purposes. This number will always be higher than the standard Census count. And this is the number that should always be utilized for Eruv purposes.
So once you take the estimated population (above the enumerated count) and add the number of guests and workers in Brooklyn — on the highest day of the year (i.e. possibly on a summer day with many tourists and summer guests), as if I’m not mistaken Rav Moshe says you count on the highest population day of the year.
In 1950 the Census counted in Brooklyn 2.75 million, 1960 2.65 million, 1970 2.6 million. Add to that the under-count. Add to that the workers, tourists, and guests on the highest day of the year. You’re in the 3 million ballpark, if not more.
Also, the real number needed to stop an eruv is human traffic of 600,000 people. That can translate into as little as 2.4 million people in the city, not necessarily 3 million. Igros Moshe OC 4:87 formulates the ratio of inhabitants to traffic as 4:1 or 5:1. This translates to 2,4000,000-3,000,000. In which case you are surely above it in Brooklyn. (Although in Igros Moshe, OC 5:28:5 and 5:29 Rav Moshe says 3,000,000 people.)
If in fact it is true that we don’t include the entire population of Brooklyn, why then are we using the U.S. Census’ population figures for the entire Brooklyn, rather than just the 12×12 mil subset?
Are you saying Reb Moshe, in his teshuva asserting a 3 million population, was saying there was 3 million in just the 12×12 mil subset alone?
Also, would not the population count include a) the residents (which will be greater than the 10 years enumerated Census count which misses people – thereby requiring the usage of the bi-annual estimated Census count that guesses how many people they missed) plus b) the daily guests and workers?
Midwest – You describe the exceptions, not the rule. In NY folks are no more overwhelmed then elsewhere. In NY there are far more folks involved in chesed and helping in all aspects than anywhere else outside EY. And in NY there is far more potential for shidduchim.
Okay, so we have a machlokes. The bochorim did what their mora d’asra held, and removed the pritzus from the public view. Others held not to do that, and so they didn’t do it. And after everyone did what they held, Klal Yisroel too benefited, as the shmutz was no longer in the street in the face of our men and children.
Baruch Hashem, a true “win-win” situation!
What makes Boro Park and Flatbush two different kehillos, anymore than 13th Avenue and 18th Avenue would be two different kehillos? Why can’t a “Flatbush” Rov have a say in a “Boro Park matter” any less than a 13th Avenue Rov can have in a “18th Avenue matter”?
It’s pretty close to 3 million. What’s the difference if it is 2.8 million or 2.6 million? And furthermore, why are you limiting it to “Brooklyn’s” population? Brooklyn is physically connected to, and part of the same municipal city, as Queens. Which itself has over 2 million. Why are you separating out Brooklyn? If you’re doing that, why not already separate “Boro Park” into its own city for the purpose of counting population for eruv purposes?
The biggest kind of chillul Hashem is when a Yid does something wrong in front of Yidden. In front of goyim is also wrong, but not as big a chillul Hashem as when by Yidden.
David:
You are making wild assertions, some of which are:
Rav Moshe was easily manipulated on a whole host of basic facts.
Rav Ahron (Satmar Rebbe) said the eruv is no good simply to act like a stooge to save face.
All the Roshei Yeshiva are simple minded folks who just called a simple minded posek who told them the eruv was no good.
“Askanim” had some unknown, unstated interest in preventing an eruv in Brooklyn, and they went out and successfully fooled Gedolei Yisroel and poskim past and present. What was these mysterious “askamim’s” gain?
I checked Pepper’s profile and it seems all right
The –> SAME <– doctor posted as before
No imposter was found at the door
tbt – Which sect needed points?
There are many factors why an eruv was not erected previously, but this is for another time. I did not say that they were not built properly, only that they are better today.
Why is this “for another time”? I would like to know. What is difficult in explaining why it took until after 2000 to properly build it. Were the doros that brought up mishpochos for the previous 40+ years in B.P. and Flatbush not entitled to benefit from an eiruv. If it were always possible, why was it not previously done?
Was Rav Moshe enabling these “askanim” with his psak or did he fall for their ruse?
David:
And why did it take until the 2000’s to establish kosher eiruven in B.P. and Flatbush? What prevented them from being properly built 40 years earlier? Were the gedolim of the previous generation an impediment to it?
“Because of the huge machlokas that ensued.”
David:
And the current one did not entail huge machlokas?
David –
For decades before the current B.P. and Flatbush eiruven were established (in the early 2000’s), there was a Flatbush Eiruv maintained by the Young Israel crowd. Why was that universally rejected by the heimishe (Litvish/Chasidish) community? Why was that eiruv worse than the current eiruv?
David –
Where do you believe the Flatbush Eiruv falls into in this discussion? Would you put it into the same status as the B.P. Eiruv?
y.p: So the question is what is dignified levush. A legitimate argument can be made that being hatless isn’t dignified. Even if you disagree.
one comes to mind where a girl called it chutzpa to come meet her father without a hat), which implies that one’s levush inherently means anything
Would it not have been chutzpa for one to come meet someone in his bathing suit? Or would that imply that levush inherently means something?
mbachur: Why are you choshed b’k’sherim Mod 80?
When a white shirt/black hatter does wrong it’s like man bites dog. You didn’t expect it. When someone says I know a hatless kipa sruga colored shirtter who is a good person unlike a certain black hatter who does bad, the point is that you generally expect better from a black hatter. The bad apples sticks out.
If you took off the Bugaboo name and otherwise left the stroller the same, most owners wouldn’t buy it since their friends and neighbors wouldn’t know they wasted $500 or more on it.
mw13 didn’t say disprove any action. mw13 said there in no known Rov who disapproved of the bochorim’s deed.
FTR, I asked one of the most respected (across the spectrum and ideologies) Rabbonim in New York about this incident, and his response to me was that he was happy to hear what they did. He hasn’t told me I can go on the internet and publish his name.
You are jewish if you are born from a jewish mother. Beards dont make people more or less jewish.
Nor does being religious make you more or less Jewish. But what does that have to do with this topic?
Once a week: Shabbos Kodesh.
All I know is that the Gedolim (virtually) don’t trim. So it must be a good thing, even if I can’t explain why.
Both Satmer Rebbes strongly oppose the eirev Why ?
If not because of halachic issues, then because of what issues? And why is the current Rebbes opposed to them, and signed against it?
If no one knows where the backup eiruv is, how do people (as described in the OP) rely on the backup eiruv, in areas that the main eiruv doesn’t cover — that the backup eiruv allegedly does cover?
Thank You DY.
I’m still wondering why R’ Moshe, R’ Yaakov, R’ Aharon, the Satmar Rebbe, the Skulener Rebbe, R’ Pam, R’ Shmuel Berenbaum, and yblch”t R’ Dovid Feinstein all wore white shirts during the week.
Anyone have any idea?
Mod 80, HaLeiVi, Derech HaMelech, Daas Yochid, and others that slip my mind at the moment, are all favored best posters in the Royal Court.
Tuxedo? I wouldn’t even wear that if I went to meet the Godol HaDor.
Jolly – I said what you quoted in jest.
My point on the previous page was that if clothes don’t matter, would you mind dating someone wearing a t-shirt and shorts? And if not on the date, if he wore those clothes during the week.
David –
Why are you challenging Clark’s statement and not 2qwerty’s earlier statement above asserting the opposite?
Did R’ Moshe ever wear a blue shirt during the week?
Why not?
The number of threads on the front of the CR page should be doubled from 50 to 100. They fall off too quickly.
You can be unremarkably unique.
His royal highness…i dont understand what you were trying to say in your last comment!
I’m not too good at explaining things in simple terms. I usually just order off with her head when someone fails to grasp it.
better to wear a blue shirt in the week. Enhances the Kovod for shabos when you wear white.
Kovod Habriyos should indicate one should wear white during the week too.
DY: What about it?
Is there a difference in a boy who wears blue shirts vs. white shirts?
Is there a difference in a boy who wears pants vs. shorts?
Is there a difference in a boy who wears shirts with sleeves vs. sleeveless shirts?
Don’t judge someone on his pants or shirt?
Check the date …
So it’s 3 years old. It’s still remarkable.
I usually can’t even tell if someone’s wearing a shaitel or not.
I think the “edited” notation should be lower case and not bold, so it doesn’t feel like a “potch” to the poster. Instead of bolding, use indenting (lower case).
I’d also prefer an edited comment than no comment, with the proviso that the editing does not change the original meaning of the comment or make it meaningless.
Do you wear a shaitel?
The examples I mentioned?