Joseph

Jothar – From Rav Schach ZT’L’s published responsa from the late 80’s/early 90’s. If you need more specific, I might be able to get it. I saw it in a sefer once, with the specific reference.

oomis – What mekoros did anyone bring on this thread, other than myself. AFAIK I am the only party to have brought any mekoros here.

JayMatt & tzipp:

Ich farshtay nisht. Why is it more important that the girl never hear a “no”, then vice versa?

Rav Yitchok Hutner ZT”L:

Before we explore the second of the new directions in detail, it is important to establish a clear distinction between any common approach to world events and daas Torah — a Torah view of the world, “Public opinion” and any but the Torah approach is by definition colored by outside forces, subjective considerations and the falsehood of secular perspective.

An example of how public opinion can be molded — indeed, warped — at the whim of powerful individuals can be taken from a study of Russian history textbooks published during the respective reigns of Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev. During each period, the textbooks hail the then-current leader to the exclusion of all his predecessors as the savior of Russia and hero of his people. Undoubtedly, “public opinion” during each period, once children’s minds had been suitably molded, reflected the thinking and wishes of the state. While more subtle in form, this ability to direct public opinion exists in democratic countries as well. Thus, we already pointed out at the beginning that we must make every effort to free ourselves from the powerful grip of public opinion, and must be ever on our guard that our opinions of the true nature of world events will be shaped only by Torah views as seen through Torah eyes.

Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.

To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.

“The Jewish Observer”, October, 1977, page 7.

________________________________

For other reasons, too, one must be careful of sudden and popular “awakenings” to different aspects of Jewish history, such as “Holocaust studies.”Nachum Goldmann, head of the only international secular Jewish organization not directly subservient to the Jewish State, has stated that the weakening of sympathy for the State was the result of a lengthy period of time after the Holocaust having passed and the resultant forgetting by the world at large. Undoubtedly, this State, taking advantage of the arbitrary figure of thirty years, sought to reawaken interest in what it now termed the Shoah to regain some of that lost sympathy of the late 40’s and 50’s.

“The Jewish Observer”, October, 1977, page 9.

Let me know if you need more:

* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means

Rabbi S. R. Hirsch

* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.

Rabbi S.D. Schneerson

* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.

Rabbi C. Soloveichik

* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.

Rabbi V. Soloveichik

Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:

“It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”

Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:

“It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”

The Chazon Ish once said:

“If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”

Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:

“It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”

Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:

“The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”

Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said:

“When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”

Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said:

” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”

The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen once said:

“In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK.”

Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:

“How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?

He also said:

“The Agudah is nothing, just money.”

Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said:

“The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”

Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:

“The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”

Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:

“Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”

“I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”

**********

Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:

**********

Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt’l:

In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.

At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.

769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. No Torah leader ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.

**********

Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:

Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.

To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.

Josh, Of course! Who doesn’t want a Sanhedrin?? Wanting a Sanhedrin is wanting Moshiach!

And yes Mored BeMalchus is applicable — when we have a Melech again IY’H.

As far as the Sanhedrin vote — that vote only includes members of the Sanhedrin — not the general public opinion.

And it is not I who sees the State as a death. It is the Gedolim.

ames – squeak has come back and indicated he will continue to post. See his post in the Come back squeak and ames thread.

squeak – you’re absence is the cause that is keeping ames away. Do her a favor and post again!

Tznius is priority # 1.

asdf, its a mitzvah to sing Zemiros at a Melave Malka.

JayMatt, good suggestion.

Until it happens, you can go to Google and search for:

site:theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom whatever you want to search for

Some Yidden have a minhag to feed the birds regularly with their leftovers.

I disliked the cost.

don’t forget to wash hamotzi for your melave malka!

oomis – it is.

yossiea, being we are unfortunate not to have a Sanhedrin functioning today, the Rabbonim act in their capacity for this (and other) purposes.

yossiea, Each of those students have families paying taxes. (As an aside, the Yeshivas I support refuse any funding from the government.)

SJS – The “consequences” of not following halacha is gehenim.

teen, they are 100% innocent. To say or even listen to or believe otherwise, is pure motzi shem ra. (And as an aside, even if guilty, the mitzvah rabbah of pidyun shvuyim is applicable. See my halachic reference in an earlier post.)

Josh, You are correct. No Chareidim hate zionists (who these days are probably mostly tinuk shenishba); they despise zionism. The zionist State is notorious for its attempts to interfere with Limud Torah.

Josh, You are correct. No Chareidim hate zionists (who these days are probably mostly tinuk shenishba); they despise zionism. The zionist State is notorious for its attempts to interfere with Limud Torah.

syrian, which Rav in the Sephardic community ever gave a heter to eat cholov stam?

The proper description is, as the OP put it: Eretz Yisroel. (NOT what the zionists decided to call it.)

usually the first 2 or 3 is in a lobby.

I have great faith in all of you, that you will break your cr addiction, and become productive members of (offline) society once again!

At that happy point in your lives, you will never look back at the cr again!

SJS – Those same communities that date less, generally have happier marriages (in addition to less divorces.)

myshadow makes very good points.