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Physical attraction plays a part, in the sense that one shouldn’t be repulsed by their spouse. But it is way down on the list of priorities to look for.
We do agree with tal’s posts.
charlie,
Leaving work early enough on Friday to allow sufficient time to fully be prepared for Shabbos prior to the Zman.
myshadow, the point is to dress tzniusdik, not “to attract.” (Like areivim pointed out as well.)
gavra,
The Gemara suggests that the Shichvas Zera of a Nochri has different properties from that of a Jew, since the Nochri eats non-Kosher foods and is physically affected by his diet.
The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos YD 175) writes that this Gemara is relevant in practice. He rules that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew.
Rav Elyashev shlita pointed out that the Chasam Sofer writes that the physical characteristics of a Yid are different than a Goy, and that what applies to one may not apply to the other. Therefore, said Rav Elyashev, how much more so regarding the mind/soul?
KiruvWife –
And if the door was unlocked and they reached the drivers side first, would you say it is equally mentchlich for her to open the door for him?
Or (better yet) if they reached a building door, should she hold it open for him, alts mentchlichkeit? (Afterall, he is required to go in first and not behind her.)
If you say in the affirmative to these, I might be able to hear where you are coming from. Otherwise, clearly the reasoning is chivalry and not mentchlichkeit.
cherrybim, with all due respect, do you consider your opinion on this matter greater than that of Gedolei Yisroel who are working day and night behind the scenes to secure the release of these 3 Yiddishe bochorim? And who have asked Klal Yisroel to constantly say Tehilim over the past year that they have been incarcerated half way around the world?
cherrybim, considering my preceding point, pidyun shvuyim – a mitzvah rabba – far far outweighs all your points.
Josh31: “Joseph: Your virulent attacks on Zionism and the Jewish State are attacks on one of the pillars of my faith.”
That’s just what I’ve been saying all along!! Zionism and the “Jewish” State have replaced Judaism as a pillar of faith for its adherents!
Also, it is the Gedolim’s “virulent attacks on Zionism and the Jewish State” that I merely subscribe to.
rob said on this issue, on more than once occasion, that “only time will tell” who is right in this debate. This demonstrates (something he will surely now be quick to deny) that he lacks confidence in his position. The Gedolei Yisroel clearly are quite confident in their descriptions of the zionists. (i.e. Rav Hutner who wrote about the zionists past crimes – something rob describes as the Gedolim fighting past issues. Hard proof, we some of that right here on these comments above.)
whatshaiches, I’m not to enamored over that story…
The best ones, are the true ones.
Who said it is meant to be comforting?
It does compared to plain English. The Chasam Sofer (amongst others) says we shouldn’t use an unaltered non-Jewish language for our daily speaking.
Dr. Respler’s study, in which she highly recommends the Chasidish “dating” system, is borne out by the FRUM couples she dealt with.
And Dr. Respler is far from being a Chosid.
Josh, G-d always was in the drivers seat. Its too bad you failed to recognize that.
BYM: Where did you run off to?
joseph sorry bout the expression, is dress to attract any better?
myshadow, No. Highly inappropriate to “dress to attract.”
To backtrack a bit, someone mentioned that the guys have a “list” of a dozen or more at the same time, while the girl is lucky to have one. How does the math work out on this? The population is approximately 50/50, and even given a slight proportion of more girls and the factor they date younger (outside of Chasidisha shidduchim) how can the variation be so great (a dozen to one)? Something doesn’t add up in this assumption.
cherrybim, it seems the people disagree with your assessment. What more is there to say?
As I seem to recall halacha (correct me if I’m wrong), if two eidim see Reuven holding a knife and chasing Shimon yelling “I’m going to kill you”, and the eidim give Reuven hasra’ah [warning], Reuven then chases Shimon into a concealed room with just the two of them. After a few minutes Reuven comes out of the room with a bloody knife in his hands, and the eidim find Shimon dead in the room. Yet Reuven cannot be convicted of murder, as the eidim never witnessed Reuven killing Shimon.
This just shows how far one must go to ascertain guilt. I fully maintain these 3 holy Yiddishe bochorim are 100% innocent victims.
Jothar, I assure you this name is too a kinui, and not my chosen. You mentioned previously that Jothar was some Yiddish name. Care to elaborate?
I think it is worthwhile noting, that it seems we essentially agree on most points in this discussion, but have a different way of stressing it. We agree that Yinglish/Yeshivish has a chashivus and should be utilized rather than pure English. We also agree that it is of foremost importance that a person learn Torah in a language that will enable him to best understand the Torah.
Rav Shach ZT’L’s psak regarding Yiddish is published in his responsa. If necessary, I can dig up the mekor. Regarding your point about “Yiddishists”, I’ve addressed it in my previous comment to you.
I’ve enumaerated many reasons with numerous sources (Chasam Sofer, Rambam, Rav Yaakov Sasportes, Maharil Diskin, Responsa Chavtzeles HaSharon) in my previous comment why it is inappropiate to talk modern hebrew and/or Loshon Hakodesh as an everyday language. You haven’t addressed these numerous points.
How do you say electricity, when speaking MH, without using “Chashmal” (to take one example)?
gavra:
I wasn’t referring to Basar Chamorim Bisaram (although I agree that would be an interesting discussion.) I think that is referring primarily to the Mitzriyam, although to a lesser extent other nochrim as well.
I am referring to a befeirus Chasam Sofer (I think I posted the mekor in the CR a few weeks ago) that says the Yidden are physically different than goyim AND (this is befeirush) the Chasam Sofer rules that all secular medical knowledge is only considered “perhaps” true when it comes to Jews, since Jews and non-Jews, it says in Chazal, have different physical natures, and medical research is done, generally, on non-Jews. All the more so where a person’s spiritual, psychological, etc. nature is concerned.
oboy
Girls aren’t supposed to learn Gemorah.
Thank you ThinkStraight.
SJS,
[Becher is]
This is a quote from the ruling by Israeli Judge Halevi against Kastner:
“It is clear that the positive recommendation by Kastner, not only in his own name but also in the name of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress was of decisive importance for [Nazi Col. Kurt]
(The Judge also found Kastner guilty of “selling his soul to the devil”, the devil being Eichmann and the deal Kastner struck with Eichmann allowing Eichmann to easily deport Hungarian Jewry to Auschwitz without resistance.)
This is a quote from Rudolf Vrba, who escaped Auschwitz and reported what was happening there to Kastner:
“I am a Jew. In spite of that, indeed because of that, I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr. Kasztner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations . . . I took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers . . . Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there. Kasztner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine . . .”
And the devil himself:
Except perhaps for the first few sessions, Kastner never came to me fearful of the Gestapo strong man. We negotiated entirely as equals. People forget that. We were political opponents trying to arrive at a settlement, and we trusted each other perfectly. When he was with me, Kastner smoked cigarettes as though he were in a coffeehouse. While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a little silver lighter. With his great polish and reserve he would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself.
And of course the Zionists sabatoged the trucks for Hungarian Jewish lives deal by tipping off the British authorities to arrest the Jewish emissary sent from Europe to the middle east to facilitate the deal.
etc. etc. etc.
Farf Un – Refuah Shelamo. The fact you feel that anti-zionists including the Gedolim are neteurei karta’nik’s, clearly demonstrates you can see nothing beyond your false religion of zionism. They Gedolim are, and were, very clearly against the State. Read them again.
catoresq – “Im ein kemach ein Torah.” And there IS Torah. So by definition, the kemach is obviously there (with the hishtadlus.)
myshadow: “Dress to KILL”?? That is pure pritzus gamur.
Like Phyliss implied, a Pizza shop is inappropriate for a date.
Itzik: Mehadrin started in 1949. (Despite what the trucks say, since 1950.)
Don’t tell me you run in high heels…
000, you left out who, what, when, where of that “project.” And it is regarding goyim, who the Chasam Sofer says are even physically different than Yidden. (Other mekors say they are emotionally and fundamentally different.)
Jothar, You are moida what I’ve been saying all along. That Klal Yisroel last used Loshon Hakodesh as its everyday tongue prior to Churban Rishon — a time when madreigas yisroel was far loftier, and we worthy of using a holy tongue. Today we are mere midgets and unworthy of using loshon kodesh. We’re talking 3,000 years. By the time of Ezra Hasofer – prior to the building of Bayis Sheni – it was no longer the universal tongue of the masses.
Secondly, everyone agrees Loshon Hakodesh is holy – the holiest tongue. No one is mechalek on this. Thirdly, the language called modern hebrew uses some loshon hakodesh, as does yiddish. Greater percentage? Granted. Nevertheless, just because the menuval Ben-Yehuda wrote and popularized it, gives it no kedusha.
You say that you see sources on this issue “both ways.” Yet, I don’t believe you’ve posted any mekors disputing what Maran Hagoen Harav E. M. Shach ZTV’L and others have said about Yiddish, in your crusade against it. All you keep repeating, is that your anonymous rebbe muvahk disagrees with Rav Schach. It is difficult to give credence to an anonymous source vs. Rav Schach and the others. The only things that seems to come across, is your oppsition to it is based upon your lack of understanding Yiddish.
The Chasam Sofer writes that the reason Jews do not speak Loshon Hakodesh as a speaking language is because it is inappropriate to use a holy language while enveloped in Tumah, which is our current status. The Rambam writes that a love song in Hebrew is more repulsive to Hashem than the same song in Arabic, for instance, because the pollution of the Holy language is an additional crime. If someone wants to store pornography in his house, thats bad enough. But to store it in the Aron HaKodesh is unspeakably worse. So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets. For our Creator to look down at the world and see His holy language – or even elements of it – used in magazines such as are sold in Kiosks on Yaffo or Dizengoff Street, or spoken by the lowest of the low trying to make a sale, is not something that he or we are happy about.
The Kuzari writes that Avrohom Avinu, therefore, spoke 2 different languages. One for holy speech – that was Loshon HaKodesh, and the other for mundane speech – that, the Kuzari says was some non-Jewish language that Avrohom Avinu took and changed around a little on his own. And thats the idea behind Yiddish. It is a non-Jewish language that we took and twisted a bit in order to make it exclusive among us.
Even though there are Yiddishistin who speak Yiddish, they took it from us, not vice-versa (as is the case of Modern Hebrew), and since we do not live in a country or society dominated by Yiddish-speaking shkotzim, there is no benefit of Lo shinu es leshonam by not speaking Yiddish. But there is such a benefit by not speaking Hebrew.
Other reasons why MH is not the “language of the Jew” are:
(a) Its origin is actually anti-Jewish. The creators of MH did so because “it is not possible to be a nation without a national language” (see Eisentein’s encyclopedia, ‘Ivrit’). This of course is Apikorsus, because Jews are a nation not like other nations – whereas other nations need a common spoken language, we only need the Torah to make us a “nation”. We are no more or less an “am” if we have or do not have a common language, common food, or common geographic boundaries. The idea was that MH will make us into a “nation like all nations”, in the same way that some fool may say that all Jews should eat bagels and lox because without doing so, we will be less of an “am”. And even though those who speka MH in Bnei Brak today do not subscirbe to this heresy, we do not consider this language the “Jewish language” because it was created to actually change the definition of what “Jewish” means. In The golyon Maharsha, quoted by Rav Reuven Grozovsky in “Bayos HaZeman”, there is brought a responsa of Rav Yaakov Sasportes, a great combatant in the fight against the Shabse Tzvi y”s. He says that Shabse Tzvi actually intorduced some positive, even obligatory practices into Judaism. Performing Birkas Kohanim daily, even in Chutz La’aretz, was foremost among them. But, says the Ohel Yaakov, even though this is a good and positive practice, and perhaps even obligatory according to Halachha, since its origins came through Shabse Tzvi, we should not do it. The same applies, all the more to making MH our “national language.”
(b) The changes in Loshon HaKodesh that were made, both in accent and content, are unacceptable. The changing of accents from Ashkenaz to Sefard for Ashkenaz Jews is wrong. Rabbeinu Bachye writes that if you change even a komatz to a Pasach in the language, it will lead to heresy. Also, certain words in Hebrew are definitely against the spirit of the Torah. (Ben Yehuda once said that he designed the language specifically to “shtoch” the religious). Example: “Chashmal”, which means electricity in MH, comes from the Loshon HaKodesh word found at the beginning of Yechizkel which is the name of the Angel of Fire. The idea of taking the name of the Malach of AIsh and using it to mean “electricity” was the implication that whereas in the olden days we believed in angels as explanations for things, today we believe in technology. It would be the same as calling penicillin, for instance, “Rephoel.” The Debreciner Rav ZT’L actually discusses if it is permitted to use this word.
MH does have its roots in Loshon HaKodesh, but its adjustments of it make it the worst of both worlds – since it has Loshon HaKodesh elements we dont want to use it for our mundane purposes – and since it has non-Loshon HaKodesh elements, we do not want to accept it as our national language. So to speak MH is one thing, but to say it is the “language of the Jew” is just not so. Neither is Yiddish the “language of the Jew”, any more than a black hat is the “clothing of a Jew.” But just as the purpose of the hat is “lo shinu es malbushayhen” – we want to dress differently than the seculars – thep purpose of Yiddish is “lo shinu es shemom” – we want to talk differently than the seculars.
There is no Mitzvah to speak in Loshon HaKodesh. Without the modernizations, its not much of a speakable language (we don’t have that many words). And if you do add in a bunch of words and tweak it, youll just end up with another Yiddish, but based on Loshon HaKodesh, which is only a bad thing, not good, as per above. Plus, the Responsa Chavtzeles HaSharon (I:OH:10) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is only Kodesh if its used exclusively for holy things. Once you start using it to speak mundane things, its not holy anymore. It’s like an Aron HaKodesh – once you use it to hold your model racing car collection and not Sifrei Torah, its not an Aron HaKodesh anymore.
In the Sefer B’Tuv Yerushalayim it relates that the Maharil Diskin refused to speak to a certain Talmid Chacham of Yerushalayim because he used to spek only Loshon HaKodesh. Said the Maharil Diskin, “For generations we are accostomed to speaking Yiddish, not Loshon HaKodesh.” He saw in the speaking of Loshon HaKodesh a contradiction to historical percedent, which originated based on the ideas in the aforementioned issues. The Chasam Sofer is in his comments on Shulchan Aruch, OH #65 – the reason we do not speak Loshon HaKodesh is to prevent undesirable people from speaking it, plus to prevent its being used in Tameh places. The posek Hagaon Rav Akiva Yosef Shlezinger in his Sefer Lev HaIvri says we should not change our spoken toungue from Yiddish, and he draws parallels with our usage of Yiddish in modern times, to our usage of Aramaic in ancient times.
What about giving a Shiur or Dvar Torah in Loshon Kodesh? The reason that was not done is because Loshon HaKodesh is very hard to use in a speaking manner – its much more suited to writing. Would you start a sentence with “hinei”? And even when Divrei Torah are writen in Seforim, they add in many Aramaic words and expression, to the point where someone who only know Hebrew but not Gemora language would have a hard time understanding it. There simply aren’t enough words or expressions in Loshon HaKodesh to do that. Its awkward even when it can be done. So since theres really no reason to do it – there is no Mitzvah to speak Loshon HaKodesh – but there is a Mitzvah to understand your learning as best as you can, it was deemed by Klal Yisroel better to use foregn language – or at least a combination of Loshon HaKodesh and foreign language, which is really what is needed to get a complex Torah idea across.
Remember – the Gemora itself was done in Aramaic – a foreign language, and not Loshon HaKodesh. And thats because it was more easily understood. Foreign languages still are. And the point of the Chavtzeles HaSharon by saying that Loshon HaKodesh loses its holiness when spoken for mundane matters was that doing so is a Bizayon for the Holy language and it therefore should not be done. Historical precendent is valid only when the past generations could have done somethign but clearly chose not to. Speaking Loshon HaKodesh was an available option for them just as it is for us – and they could have created a “speaking language” out of it if they wanted – just like they did recently. The fact that they didnt shows that they chose not to. We should, too. But Loshon HaKodesh – with the Aramaic and foreign words mixed in, which is what is used for Torah – is not really speakable. But it woks best from the written Torah word. Its not a coincidence that after thousands of years, those who finally came up with the idea to speak Hebrew were atheist Apikorsim who did it specifically for heretical reasons – because in order to be a “nation” you need a language.
Rob, The Chasam Sofer quoted is there. I’ll have to double-check if I gave you the correct mekor to it. Thanks for pointing that out. (You know that in the past the mekors I provided you, have not led you astray — as much as you may have disagreed with what the sources say.)
Yasher Koach
problemsny: good post.
and what real-life tried & true data does anyone have to counter Dr. Respler’s findings?
Going once…
(all I hear is anecdotes and “gut” feelings)
going twice…
going…
PY: The label you applied is of your, or whomevers, making. The correct description is Pro-Torah, not anti-zionist.
oomis, dates are not for enjoyment. They are for tachlis.
are they Irish?
moish, thats a very wormy comment.
qwerty – how many times must you be told not to spend any time out of the cr?? Hopefully this will teach you your lesson, serve as a good reminder where you belong.
Yasher koach Reb Nosson! Please keep these types of posts coming.
This is surely one of the best, if not best, topic and post in the cr.
William F. Buckley, who was a very rational person, supported it.
Phyllis: I was once in chasidishe camp for a summer to help out with a program, and in that time i made some very close chasidishe friends that do very short dating times. We discussed this openly and they all confirmed that their parents do tons of info (in which MIDDOS are thoroughly researched), they marry pretty much the same family background (which solves a lot of problems), and do very little dating in which the goal is to see if they feel comfortable with eachother. SOme come from large families where they are all extremely happily married.
In fact one friend told me that there is nothing like being engaged to someone that u respect, and heard wonderful things about. She said by the time u get married you are so excited to get to know this person better. She said the she spent shana rishona with such a closeness to her husband, all they were doing and were intersted in was getting to know eachother better. And since they were already married they are able to do this any which way they want, without limitations.
U cannot generalize, but Dr. Yael Respler, who is clearly NOT chasidish, and deals with marriage counseling more than any of us, tremendously encourages chasidish dating. She said if this can be done by the litvish/modern there would much less divorces.
Phyliis’ reference of Dr. Respler put it best. Clearly De. Respler found, from her extensive marriage counseling experience, that less dating leads to healthier marriages.
All the date-ahoy crowd could muster is anecdotal stories and/or third-hand or gut-feelings. How is that greater scientific proof? Has anyone a counter to Dr. Respler?
from an adom gadol.
helminthology
?’ ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ????.
The three verses are:
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 2:7).
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 3:5).
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem: Why should ye awaken, or stir up love, until it please? (Song of Songs 8:4).
There are several other Midrashim that pertain to the Three Oaths and they are primarily recorded in Shir ha-Shirim Rabbah which is also known as Midrash Hazita:
, and the nations swore that they would not overly burden Israel, for by doing so they cause the end of days to come prematurely.
Rabbi Chelbo says…And do not ascend like a wall from the Exile. If so, why is the King Messiah coming? To gather the exiles of Israel.
When Reish Lakish would see Jews from the Exile gathering in the marketplace [in the Land of Israel] he would say to them, ‘Scatter yourselves.’ He said to them: ‘When you ascended you did not do so as a wall, and here you have come to make a wall.’ [7]There are several other Midrashim that pertain to the Three Oaths and they are primarily recorded in Shir ha-Shirim Rabbah which is also known as Midrash Hazita:
, and the nations swore that they would not overly burden Israel, for by doing so they cause the end of days to come prematurely.
Rabbi Chelbo says…And do not ascend like a wall from the Exile. If so, why is the King Messiah coming? To gather the exiles of Israel.
When Reish Lakish would see Jews from the Exile gathering in the marketplace [in the Land of Israel] he would say to them, ‘Scatter yourselves.’ He said to them: ‘When you ascended you did not do so as a wall, and here you have come to make a wall.’
Rambam cited the Three Oaths in his famous Iggeres Teiman:
???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???
Shlomo Hamelech, of blessed memory, foresaw with Divine inspiration, that the prolonged duration of the exile would incite some of our people to seek to terminate it before the appointed time, and as a consequence they would perish or meet with disaster. Therefore he admonished and adjured them in metaphorical language to desist, as we read, “I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please.” (Song of Songs 2:7, 8:4). Now, brethren and friends, abide by the oath, and stir not up love until it please (Kesubos 111a).
Ramban did not explicitly discuss the Three Oaths. Rashbash who was himself a descendant of Ramban, understood this particular biblical obligation to be binding on the individual level but not on the collective:
“In truth, this commandment is not a commandment which includes the entirety of Israel in the Exile which now exists, but it is a general principle as our Sages stated in the Talmud in Ketubos, that it stems from the Oaths which The Holy One, Blessed be He, made Israel swear not to rush the End, and not to ascend like a wall.” (Responsa Rashbash, 2)
Rabbeinu Bachya, formulated a comprehensive Torah commentary based on the four principles denoted by the word “PaRDeS.” In his commentary he wrote on Genesis 32:7 :
Maharal discussed the Three Oaths in Netzach Yisrael:
?? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????. ???? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’, ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??
[the Exile] nor will they change their behavior in this manner.
The oaths are between the Jewish people and God, and the gentiles and God respectively. Theoretically, if the gentiles would violate their oath does not tacitly mean that the Jewish people are free to do so as well. Historically, atrocities prior to the Holocaust have not prompted claims of violating the oaths by the gentiles.
tzippi, my apologies on the typo regarding your screen name.
Jothar – Btw, you referenced Rav Moshe ZT’L without either clearly stating what Rav Moshe said regarding this, and what the mekor is for Rav Moshe purportedly saying as such.
Also, Rav Shach ZT’L’s response on the issue was specifically in response to a shaila from American Rabbonim.
asdf – please see Dr. Pepper.
wow i leave for 3 weeks and were already up to 1400!!!
BYM: If you’d have been here, it would be up to 2400.
oomis – that is anecdotal. The rule is the opposite. Shorter dating = healthier marriages & less divorces. (There are exceptions to every rule.)