Moq

B”H barriers are falling. I’ve seen so many “mismatched” shidduchim recently – 22 boy w/24 yr girl 29 yr old/18 yr grl 23 yr by/25 grl – all off the top of my heard within the last half year. Within reason, you can afford to be flexible.

Wallstreet that dropped 20% of it’s workforce wall street? That wall street?

Ofcourse –

Principal: Whohoo!

Teacher: What’s up, Rebbetzin?

Principal: I’m going to throw out Chani Greenberg?

Teacher: Um…why?

Principal: Who needs a reason! That’s the secretary’s job.

Teacher: Didn’t see it in her job description.

Principal: SO?

Teacher: You’re drunk, Rebbetzin.

Principal: Excuse me! My contract says I get one carte blanche expulsion per month. Last month was…

Teacher: Rivky Schwartz. For…

Principal: Existing! In a black skirt! That on a taller girl would have been too short! PRUTZA! We must be vigilant!

Teacher: Yeah…why did you put that in your contract?

Principal: The sheer RUSH! The tears! The raw feeling of power! Come on, does anyone go into teaching for the money? I mean, someone at my AA meeting just said the other day…

Teacher: Oh yeah…how have those been going?

Principal: The road to recovery is a long one. So I made up with my sponsor, if I ever feel stressed, instead of reaching for the bottle, I’ll ruin a young innocent soul instead, as a healthy outlet.

Teacher: Ahha…how’s that been working for you?

Principal: Let’s find out – because I need a drink NOW! Now, get me Greenbergs parents on the line! And put on the tape recorder, I may need to listen to this later. Oh, I simply can’t wait. Maybe I should call my sponsor, she’ll be so happy to know how good I’m doing…

Teacher: Yes. I know. Healthy outlet.

……..

Does anyone really believe that? Nothing? Zero? Zilch?

Schools are not always right, nor just. But there always is a reason; they don’t pull kids out of a hat. It may not be a good reason. And I think the debate thus far has been about that. Does anyone else accuse schools of randomly throwing out kids? There is more to the story. May not mean the school was right. Could be the school was very wrong. But they didn’t throw her out because of a teachers game of truth & dare gone wrong (“Throw out Chani Greenberg!” “But she’s the nicest girl!” “then tell me where you got your shaitel done!” “Never!”) But there’s more.

anon- why so much anger at the kley kodesh? Frankly, why Rebbeim make less then a garbage man? Tuition breaks are part of their benefits. Why must the people who teach our kids make absolutely nothing – chas v’challiah, make more then one of us?

Kollel? How many kollel guys do you have in OOT? Again, it’s a community thing; the community brings them, offers them high salaries and breaks to build up the community. Again it’s payment. If between their salaries, wives salaries & tuition breaks they can afford something you can’t is that so horrible? Why is that wrong?

Aries- again, communities without kollel don’t have fiscal problems? No no no.

Again, we are the schools. We need to pay them. That’s what it boils down to. If we feel we can do better – then let’s go do it, or finance it. Why is it THEM? (As always, with real respect!)

Chose to kick kids out due to unbendable rules?

Is that really the case all the time?

Hire anyone? Anyone who will take the measly salaries we pay.

We are ultimately responsible for our own children. Nekudah. And part of that, is working with the school. The attitude of “the schools messed up my kid” – doesn’t help our kids. Then help the schools. Finance them. Offer resources.

Do you think any principal will listen to an indictment of everything he stands for?

They are always well meaning. They work for US 24/7, for our kids, when they could make much more money elsewhere. Let’s show respect, or do the job ourselves. Of course we should give feedback. But aren’t we passing the buck to them?

Will this attitude help our schools – our kids? Will a community wide – our schools stink – how exactly will that help our kids?

OfCourse – Hold it – when people were willing to work for no money – it’s their responbility?? Are you kidding me? They have to eat, like everyone else.

And I personally have seen dozens of children and adults helped by competent professionals.

Kapusta – there is minhag, that menhalim fast the day they have to expell a child.

SJS – and if we paid more, she would have been experienced by a young , educated, talented teacher. Instead, that teacher went to the public school!

Yiddishe – that sounds a bit …spinned.

Mikvas are a problem….big problem. I don’t have an answer. People have a minhag to bring children there; I think it’s a really bad idea. I just don’t have an answer. Yeah, it happens, especially in the Olympic sized mikavaos with over a hundred people on a busy erev shabbos. Any solution is almost as bad as the problem and makes thing super wierd for the normal people. (Cameras? A ‘shomer’? Yuck).

what-

I am act actually going to worry that you are serious; I am not a professor at Stern; I’m just a hard working (sometimes) tongue in cheek guy

Hadar…back in the day it was punch line of every yeshivish shidduchim joke. Guess things have changed. Or course, BJJ got it’s fair share too, but Hadar always took the cake.

Merely dabble. But me & Mrs. Moq usually have something cooking. Though not now. He dumped her after 3 dates. And for a dumb reason. No sechel! Nu, she was too good for him anyway.

Hmmm… “Nashim Datam Kalos Hem” is unrelated to intellectual capabilities. Women are just as smart as guys. The Gemara speaks of Beruriah as being intellectually beyond many Amoraim, yet holds her up as a prime example Kalus Hem.

Who ever said women are stupid? Certainly intelligent men don’t believe that. While certainly some girls are “flighty” many are not. Some guys are flighty too, just in a guy way.

Though you are right; women thrive with the “extra time”.

Gee, I actually heard it from him. Oh well. I guess he was

misinformed.

You can argue, you can tell me he tells his bachurim other things, but please don’t tell me what I did or didn’t hear. “Ah ah, the difference between 21 and 23 is a difference for gantz lebben”

YOUCHS! Bad typo – Pascha – you’re —>RIGHT<–, COMMA! eating disorders should be as much of a concern as overweight…

R’ Shmuel Kamentsky once said in a Hakhel schmooze that the age a boy marries at makes a difference for the entire marriage, based on his maturity level. That’s why he opposed the initiative to get boys to date younger (leave EY earlier, etc.). He said 23 is a min.

Myfriend – not sure what real experience you are referring to. Care to elaborate?

Minyan-

True, but the school has a thousand kids, and barely enough budget to cover the underpaid teacher to teach a class of thirty children. And the teacher doesn’t make enough for him/her to have specialized degrees or training, nevermind resource rooms & therapist. As long as we have luxury pesach vacations before we have well equipped, well paid schools, we are going to pay for it in other ways then money. If need schools on the level, we need to pay for it.

If we give our schools zero budget, and kvetch and call them names when they want more (see bais yakov of boro park thread) – what on earth are they to do? Primary responsibility is on the parents, to get tutors, therapists, or switch on their own. Schools are barely keeping their heads above water with the “standard” children.

RamatEshkolian-

Right; we need to be able to admit we are human. That is indeed the first step. America is not helping; everyone needs dual income. A world where the wife is a full time psycologist/tutor/nurse/mommy to her children is a good world, and makes happier children. Not always is it possible, but until your youngest is off to school, it’s a wonderful thing to be able to be home – and probably worth moving to – God Forbid! – out of town to make happen.

Indeed. Well said.

Aries –

thanks for your honesty. If I understand you correctly, you are agreeing with me, but telling that unfortunately it’s just not possible.

Surely , you’ve seen the difficulty of convincing the general community of this, which is used to following Rabbinic lead, but you are convinced – based on experience in the field – that it’s the only way to protect our kids.

Maybe you’re right. But I think, we both hope that you are wrong. Maybe things can change; maybe after the lid was blown off now we can build a consensus. Nothing wrong with hoping, and I think that things are different; so much has changed. 20% of the frum community has been in therapy. Things are changing. So much is coming out from under the rug. Apparently, it got crowded. We are growing as a community. I really believe that.

I had the zechus of watching two abuse victims – one by his father, one by a counselor in camp – rebuild there lives through intense therapy, kind mentoring, and spouses sent from the kisey hakavod itself. The second actually abused another child – when he was child as well (eight years old) – and later looked him up and asked mechila.

It was a beautiful thing to be involved in. Both are Talmidey Chachamim, with healthy families. It was a magical thing to watch and be involved in. There is hope. And hope starts with hoping.

This has gotten me thinking. I think I need to start writing & researching…I’ve never articulated a plan so clearly…and we’ll see where that goes, eh? I have been directly involved for a while…but…

You may still hold you are correct, but at least pray you are wrong. I think we can both agree on that.

It is a misconception that guys are obsessed with stunning girls. While every male is mortal, and it’s definetly a plus, the hakpada that guys have is “normal” “nice” even “pretty” – which means that the vast majority of girls who know how to put themselves together are fine. Occasionally you have a guy who insist on a supermodel, but that is genuinely rare. Overweight says to a guy “she’s letting herself go” – it’s the same in marriage. Men want their wives to care; not be perfect.

This is emes l’amito. I recently had the son of a friend get married. We had them over for shabbos, and he is a yeshivish tom cruise, and we had always laughed and figured he would end up with the same.

I had the zechus of meeting an intelligent, fine, tzanau bas yisrael – a perfectly normal girl, but one that you wouldn’t expect to find with tom cruise ( am I behind on the times? does he have grandkids by now?). Because – him, like most guys, is scared of overweight, and is looking for a normal – read, 75% of female population – girl, who knows how to take care of herself. Other then that? It was about middos, haskafafah and compatibility (she wasn’t wealthy, nor is her father a rosh yeshiva). He’s just a good boy, who was looking for good girl. Shoen. That’s really, the honest truth, and I’ve dabbled in shidduchim for a while, and know my customers.

Of course, this is all independent of fair and true etc. etc.. – it just is. The only thing that is a deal breaker to most guys is overweight. This illusion that boys demand a size two is false. “I don’t need Ms. America, just spare me Mius America”

My husband had the same suggestion the other day…

I see this in the older chevra. I don’t think it has to do with intelligence; B”H we are blessed with Intelligent boys, too. But when they are younger , everyone is at the beginning of everything, and when two people are zoche to get married, their married life takes a piece of everything. If he’s going to be a high powered lawyer, she’s already pregnant and is thinking about the kids and wnats to stay home. If he’s in Kollel, her priority is top dollar now, with being able to balance time with the kids. Being a Doctor/Lawyer for a girl, usually won’t cut it.

BUT if things take a while to develop – well, boys usually rot without wives, and girls thrive without husbands. So you the longer you get down the shidduch pole, usually, she’s beautiful, accomplished with a checkbook and a nuclear physicist – and he’s – be it working or learning, degree or not – still kind of wandering around, working in his uncle’s store/law firm. Usually, guys do not have the same degreee of success in their years. Girls have a blast. So the gap gets bigger and bigger, and how on earth is she suppose to look up to him? Obviously, this doesn’t apply to all guys, but I think it’s a pretty good rule of thumb.

Moq, I can’t tell if your serious or your dreaming.

>> What is wrong with both? Anger will make use acknowledge the problem, but optomism will let us think of a solution

Rabbonim are standing on the issue of witnesses. THERE ARE NO WITNESSES. All the acts of molestation are done in private and not b’farheshia so how can there be two witnesses to each offense that a victim can bring to a beis din? Already a frum molester has protected himself and has given himself carte blanche according to halacha, also knowing that Rabbonim will not allow anyone to turn him over to the police. So getting two Rabbonim or more to come together and actually agree on this issue is not likely. Only one Rav at a time on their own will have the courage to name a molester a “RODEF” and attach all rules that apply.

>> One Rav here. One Rav there. Then you have two. And they have friends. R’ Elyashiv already gave us the word Rodef, now it’s a question of connecting the dots. And the public outcry makes it safer for a Rav to go public – as loud as the outcry is not “against those Rabbonim”. Then they will hide. But if we look for a Halachic solution, in the Halachic framework, and instead of saying “we’re going to blow down all the doors, Rabbonim be damned” and say instead “Rebbe, we have people and resources and two Rabbonim have signed and said we can go public with ten signatures. These are the facts.” I think it’s possible. Has it happened till now? No. But I think it’s possible. And I think now it’s almost MO against yeshivish, because it’s been done in the name of blasting Rabbonim and that goes against everything Yeshiva people believe in and is making them circle the wagons. It doesn’t have to be use against them. We acknowledge we messed up till now, and start building consensus. it doesn’t mean the agudah. It means with Halacha.

The decision whether or not to “out” a molester should not be YOURS to make. That should be the decision solely left in the hands of the victim. If the victim is willing to publicize the event and keep everyone safe from the monster then there should be no other collusion in regard to the privacy of the accused.

>>Obviously, I’m talking when they ask us what the right thing to do. And we have a disagreement here. My answer would be to bring the child for a professional evaluation, and work from there (yes, I know a child shrink is an obligated reporter. I would make sure I knew of a reliable, qualified non alarmist child shrink). And if the shrink was unsure, I’d investigate – and part of the plan is to have resources to do that. And if you get the go ahead from the shrink, then call 911. Unfortunately, usually social workers need to work with their hands tied by the victims. A woman, married ten years, – does she want her husband to know what evil Mr. X did to her in 8th grade?

On the other hand, MOLESTERS who turn themselves in should have their identities held private for having the courage to own up and seek help.

>>Same page here. And we need to finance it, and advertise it subtlely. I believe this is the most important point here. Because many of them are horrified by themselves, and then the rationales kick in. I once was sitting in a room with someone I knew was a molester and a times was on the table about a recent arrest in NY (yes, that one). And I said “they should be shot and killed” – he looked me in the eye (he didn’t know I knew, long , sad story) and said “what if they are just sick and need help?”. I was too shocked to speak. So I didn’t.

Every school has an Insurance rider to protect themselves against sexual abuse and molestation. So I am not sure where you are going with this.

>>> Yeah, see what the community – rightfully so – does to your school. Besides for the civil consquences, you will have no enrollment left, and imagine if you put 40 years of your life into that school. Think of the nisayon.

If there is an acceptable standard of histadlus that schools could hide behind, to defend themselves from the furor, they’d be more willing to come forward and say ” yes, we hired. we put him through a background check. We had cameras in our classrooms. We profiled. We’re so sorry, and now we’re going to work with the DA’s office to make sure it never happens again”. Again, we need to think past right & wrong, and think ‘how can I get all the stake holders to cooperate?’ and put ourselves in their heads.

As far as an independent panel is concerned, that is what the BJJ or Torah Mesorah was supposed to do, and the Agudah being the most respected and honored Jewish Organization that is basically worldwide should have done. They have the means and the know how to keep such a data base and to answer inquiries forwarded by educational or child related institutions.

>> How did Rebbetzin David get into all of this? 😉 Unfortunately, if we are talking about people that we can’t convict, they can’t discriminate or keep a registry, because the’ll get nailed on libel. No official organization can keep track of the nail everybody knows of. It needs to be beneath the radar, like a frum wikileaks based in Norway. Like the get mob.

That guy recently in NY – he got busted on child endangerment. He’s not registered as an offender. Put up a sign that he is – nailed for libel.

VNishmartem-

If people believed that is was wrong to go to the police without witnesses , then they believed it was righ to protect this guy from the authorities, because he was a victim of an injustice. Now, that’s wrong. But I see what they believed. We have a long tradition of expelling moserim and protecting our own. It takes a lot of bodies until to we see that this sugya is different. They weren’t evil. But they were sooo wrong. Now it’s time to pay the piper.

Ben Torah –

If you could just kill him by shooting him, going through all that is clor bittul torah & baal tashchis on the wasted bullets. Seriously though? If the only option was lethal action, we’d be obligated to do that as well. Luckily, we have a prison system and mines in new zealand.

And you can see where the anger is. This is hell for the rest of the person life. The lucky ones screw up their marriages and then get five years of therapy and hopefully put humpty dumpty back together again. The rest kill themselves or molest other kids or become drug addicts or abusive parents/spouses or s** addicts or homosexuals…yada yada yada yada

Hehehe…I usually have a complex opinion. That is, I can see different sides of the issue. I still don’t believe that purely based on a child’s say so we should involve the police.

That said, I want to light molesters on fire.

But as a community, with just a little bit of money, we could do so much.

1- Community wide investigation of why our rates are up, how is a molester born & breed? Speak to the ones in prison; most are repentant and will cooperate.

2-School liability – based on a number of guidelines. If you follow them, you have no liability. If you didn’t, you get your pants sued off. Anchor it in law. It will make schools cooperate afterward ( as opposed to the current situation, that they have a major incentive not to cooperate because of the endless liability, and therefore they just ship off the molester. Say, no, legally you are OK if you did your job beforehand – and clearly define what there job is – background checks, yichud rules, video cameras).

3- Prevention – a place for potential molesters to run to. therapy, medication, employment. True, aries, many will not take it. But some will. Some will ask themselves if sing sing is worth for a decade. Some will wonder what the hell is wrong with them.

Some are horrified at what they came close to doing. x400. That’s worth my while. If I can get 10 molesters off the streets of NYC – how many kids have I saved over decades?

4- Clear, acceptable Halachic guidelines of when you are allowed to go the police, signed off by the big league poskin, publicized in english to everyone. Explaining the mitzvah of taking action when action is warranted. A promise of confidentiality and community protection.

5- An independent task force that can take complaints, maintain a black list of educators (even if we don’t have enough to lock em up), and tasked with tormenting them until they mine in new zealand.

Price tag? Five million, max. That’s chump change – we could cut out fifty percent of cases. That’s the moq proposal.

And now you have an answer to our original question. People were silent because:

of being unsure of when they can report someone

of unsure of what the burden of proof was

unsure of destroying a community school

unsure of destroying an otherwise wonderful person & his innocent family

so they just quietly fired him. but that didn’t do the job.

Kerosene?

I think we could really deal with those problems. And this is why people weren’t evil for not reporting – merely, terribly wrong.

What is the issur of supporting avodah zara? We are afraid that your business will cause them to be thankful to their god. An issur of lifney iver.

Subject to all of the gedarim of lifney iver.

however, I believe we rely on tosfos in chullin & places in avodah zara that today people are not really dedicated to their various gods.

and goyim are not forbidden from shituf l’halacha (machlokes rambam tosfos, see yechaveh daas chelek 6/60) ( god+man) and trinity would got into that catergory.

so I think you’re good.

top of head, subject to fabrication 🙂

and look both ways before you cross the street

I was in Tehran recently as part of my shul’s Neturey Karta Solidarity mission with Laura Schlessinger, and I was a lot more comfortable on the buses.

What R’ Moshe is saying is that men need to use their brains, and stay out of situations that are not healthy for them. I wouldn’t call them men with psycological problems. I would them men who know what to avoid and what not to. Each guy has to know his no go zone. Somethings are a no go zone for everyone, and if you think that it’s not, you’re fooling yourself, like, say , a club.

However, a bus is a grey area. So that means use your brains.

That’s all. SJS, think about it – you’d probably want your husband to avoid situation he personally finds difficult. And he would too.

And you must the only person I know who listens to R’ Moshe about ACs/

well written. kol hakavod.

Gavra-

But molesters usually are married.

Would they be in a non jewish society? Or would they be out in bars trying pick up lines?

>> Hmmm…some yes, some no. I misunderstood. You are saying that the molesters are homosexuals, who have no outlet.

And …well, pressure, has many outlets. Why kids? What does that develop the desire?

Easy targets.

>>And vulnerable. From the mischav zachor perspective, definetly.

And what exactly can we do – oter then sex ed, which most get anyway (one way or another). I mean, pilagshim?

One way or another is not good enough. They have to know they (teens in general, not predators) are normal.

See gemorah I quoted. Also repeal Cherem. Zonos (non jews) are NOT a problem on a D’Oraysah level (except according to the Rambam), and if discussed with a rav, may get heter. Spouses should be more attentive to male “needs”.

>> Hold it, are we talking about heterosexuals or homosexuals? Non-Jews – what – b’tzinah? Many paskin it’s kanaim pogim bo – except the Rambam ( I recently spoke to a Posek about this, I’d prefer not to get into a purely halachic discussion on this particular thread). Rely on him to protect kids? Sound like a slippery slope. But we’re slipping anyway. Cherem? Two wives? One healthy relationship I think is enough for anyone anyway, and a jerk won’t have better luck with two.

Blame it on the wife?

But you are correct in that anything is better and mutar relative to harming a child. Regardless of what the consquences are.

But what a horrible chesbon to have to make. I don’t think that is normal. I think normal people can be happy in normal regular marriages.

What makes a person abnormal that he needs such a heter?

This all sounds to normal; isn’t internet & zonahs the direction frustrated people who can’t control themselves take? Much less risk then kids. Ultimately, nothing bad will happen – legally – if you cheat or go on the internet or to time square. Why risk the decade in prison (and prisoners are known for a certain honor amoung thieves – they torture these people)?

I disagree with you. I don’t think it would help. I think this a perversion that comes from abnormal desires.

I think the problem of regular sexual frustration finds it’s expression in our internet addiction magefa. Which is being discussed on another thread.

—-

And the answer never is “do nothing”. Your idea of Chemical Castration is not a bad one (if it works), but a person may want to be proactive (at least until they are settled with a spouse). This would also work for the Mishkav Zochors. We could do this if the community just admitted there is a problem.

>>The treatment is availible, and not horrible expensive. The community doesn’t have to acknowledge anything – an individual could go to a professional. As far as mishkav zachar…well, can they be cured? There was a great article on Aish about that.

And the dose can be adjusted to permit a married relationship. You’re talking about $3000 a year. We could easily subsidize it. The drug is called Decapeptyl, and it’s a monthly injection. I believe there are other non-permanent drugs as well.

It could also be used temporarily, to get things under control and give therapy & group work a chance to work.

This goes under my idea to establish a place – a hotline, a website, for these people to get subsidized, confidential, professional help.

If someone strikes, we need to strike back mercilessly. But the best thing if they never strike. We need thinking on both ends.

Gavra-

But molesters usually are married.

And …well, pressure, has many outlets. Why kids? What does that develop the desire?

And what exactly can we do – other then sex ed, which most get anyway (one way or another). I mean, pilagshim?

Doesn’t add up.