Forum Replies Created
You make a good case. But it’s like expecting Strom Thurmond to bedefeated. This why term limits were invented. I think Dov will be fine. But if he sees that 40% of his brethren voted against him – he’ll get the message.November 2, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711785
Fascinating. Ok, I’m going to address the rationale stuff 🙂
– as always, your graciousness is appreciated. Hopefully, conversations like this will eventually breed a grass roots solution.
And 90% of the time, Gedoley Yisroel are passive – AKA giving Haskamos to initiatives started by a “meshugena l’davar echad” – aka, Sarah Schnierer or Rosenberg (Shaatnez) etc. It would certainly be an honor to be called a Meshugena for these kids.
As Per R’ Menashe Klien’s Psak –
There are two aspects here –
Punishment – that requires a full classical Torah standard of proof. We cannot dish out punishment or reprisal or cause punishment without it. Nor can we cause a punishment that is no Beis Din like. So we cannot use the secular courts for punishment. I think that Mr. Pasik Esq. and Aries will agree with this.
And based on that we can understand why so many were silent.
But there is a second, more important aspect, and that with bitter experience – and this is where our community has erred until now, and why those who tried to brush things under the rug should made a costly mistake , but were not evil – prevention. Rodef. And R’ Menashe Klien is correct, if you can stop a Rodef in another way, you must, But…bitter, painful, experience has shown that they pick themselves up and find another school. And in today’s 30,000 a year yeshivos, we need to take whom we can get. And he attacks again. Gets fired. Attacks again.
The only way to permanently keep the Rodef from stiking again is either incarceration or the electric chair. Firing just doesn’t stop the Rodef. We’ve protect this years class. But not the next yeshiva – and if he does it, again and again, as research – reliable, none hysterical research has shown a tremendous recidivism rate when around children – he needs to be locked up for a nice amount of years, and then be branded as sex offender.
And a Rodef requires a lower standard of proof then punishment.
When we see someone chasing someone else with a knife, we need not ask Beis Din. We need to lock & load. But what standard? Whatever it is – it is not the classical Torah standard of proof. Soklin V’Sorfim Al HaChazakos. This requires more research (for instance, we permit a late term abortion to the save the Mother’s life, based on the say so of a professional. Obviously, we would not execute someone based on this. But we are permitted to kill baby – Hashem Yishmor – based on the Din Rodef.)
Again, I don’t think we should let the police determine this, but the standard is definitely lower then two witnesses etc. And since experience has shown that the only way to prevent is via the authorities, we must do so.
(Mr. Pasik – what has the success rate been with chemical castration? I know in Israel the injections are often a condition of parole, and are covered by insurance).
A child’s word should be taken into account – even more so, his behavior & actions being consistent with the clinical behavior of a victim, certainly if he attempts to molest another child (of course, we know he’s a victim, but we don’t know from whom, even if he claims it’s Rebbe – it could very well be a parent, Hashem Yishmor. Investigate!).
Again, I’m not sure exactly where the line is. To give everything to the police is irresponsible. To wait for two witnesses is to let the Rodef keep killing. My idea is to have an internal investigation.
As Per R’ Elyashiv –
R’ Elyashiv says certain. True. But what on earth does that mean. He is well known for being concise. Certain does not davka mean two witnesses. I believe he means Rodef standard, because a Rodef clearly does not require two witnesses. We seek prevention by all means necessary, not punishment.
Some other aspects –
This has become a megefah amoungst us; I was told by a respected psychologist that our abuse rate has exceeded the general population. We need to find out why, and deal with it from there. I have what to say about this, but I’d like to hear your opinions first.
We need to be preventative, before the molester strikes
-Child education of what red lines are. Establishing a confidential reporting hotline (to my imaginary independent investigative force)
-Unfortunately, we need to require teaching professionals to treat children as girls. No yichud. No touching. Period. Makes things safer for everyone involved. And less excuses if accusations come up. And no yichud will prevent the opportunity for a false accusation.
-Video cameras in all classrooms. Small, subtle ones. Everyone is told about them. It’s not expensive, a few thousand dollars for a school. Again, protecting innocent children – and innocent rebbeim/teachers. You can easily keep recordings for a year, with compression and a few decent hard drives.
-Profiling & background checks. Why why why not? Everyone.
-A confidential helpline for the potential abuser. A place he can get help without getting arrested (before he strikes, obviously.) they often struggle with urges for years before they strike. What if there was a hotline, that a potential molester (who was molested himself) could call – that would pay for therapy, help him ease out of teaching via new training and money until he is settled elsewhere, with absolute legal confidentiality (assuming, of course, he hasn’t struck. Then we can’t protect him). Anonymous & helpful. And we’ve saved him and our kids. Figure $30,000 to help him get gainful employed elsewhere & therapy (and perhaps those wonderful injections?). And of course, keep in touch, ever so quietly. That’s a bargain.
-Raise the bar in our schools. Healthy people are not abusers. Because our schools struggle so much, often they hire nebichs. Healthy, put together people go elsewhere. If our schools paid $60,000 a year for a Rebbe and required a Masters degree (or semicha..whatever) – our rates would drop. Molesters are usually unsuccessful people, whom can only control children. But not always. Yes, it’s all about the Benjamins.
This is money we are spending anyway.
Thoughts?November 1, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705600
See, Reb Doniel, you’re simply an Am HaAretz.
You learn with Gemaras that are missing pages, never learned Asher Yatzer, and bet you never opened up a Beis Kisey, much less used one! My son started learning Beis Kisey on a regular basis when he was 3 – I mean, he needed help, but he got there ! And how old are you? Pashut Bizyonos!
I mean, if you never learned Asher Yatzar, even if you dealt with Beis Kisey, you wouldn’t know what to do afterward! You can’t possibly understand Beis Kisey without Asher Yatzar – it’s in Rambam, you know.
My son knows Asher Yatzar’s works BY HEART! AM HAARETZ!!!
He’s still working on Beis Kisey though…his mother says I need to calm down about it 🙂
What would the Nebich say?
Very shvach. I expected better!November 1, 2010 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705592
See chevra, he quoted Brachot 1b! Hurray! No R’ Asher Yatzar, though. Or the Nebi. Or Beis Kisey.
Pointed made, rabosai? G’day.November 1, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711742
Squeak, I honestly am not sure what you are saying. Could you elaborate or explain further?
Aries – I didn’t say Rabbonim. I know that didn’t work, as I said. I said we need to create an independent investigative organization, or quietly fund PI’s. We to have an army of educated and indepdent social workers/PIs/former law enforcement officails.
And true, I am referring to non-jews cases. And I am not referring to the tristate area. I am referring to things I have seen in OOT – and let me leave it at that. No, it’s not the dark ages. How long ago was the duke scandal?
And aries, you seem like one of the intelligent people here, who’s points and experience can speak for themselves. I don’t mind disagreeing with you, and I don’t mind being wrong – but I’d appreciate if you dropped your personal – somewhat insulting – tone. I care for these kids as much as you do, and have been involved in this sick field in the past. I think you are belittling your obvious experience and knowledge in this field with a tinge of hysteria. Please, the only way we’ll be able to build is through consensus, not through insulting anyone “who doesn’t get it”.
And aries, seriously, you haven’t seen innocent people get hurt? Come one. I have. I have seen – one person in particular – lose his marriage over this. And he was innocent, and vindicated in the end of the day. What good did it do him?
“Trust the professionals” – yes, we will probably get more molesters off the streets. And a lot of innocent people. And as R’ Elyashiv – quoted here, I’m going to look at it IYH – said, we have no right. None at all. We cannot trust the police.
That is a valid point though, that R’ Elyashiv did speak of the Israeli Police – they are notorious – 98% of criminal cases end up guilty or pled guilty in Israel. What would he say about America? I don’t know.November 1, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705579
Nope. And many of us don’t like the tea party. You smell like a translation throwing troll, ignorant of any opinions that you don’t have a translation of. Check Brachot 1b for me, will you? Sorry. Your total lack of complexity in your understanding (and Isaiah? who the heck calls Yeshaya Isaiah?).
Sorry buddy. I debate pretty much everyone here – ‘cept trolls. I don’t like the tea party. But you’re a liberal loony tune – an off key one at that, trying to demonstrate your sad knowledge of searchable translation on core Jewish values. First Avos. Now the Rambam. Give us some…oh, Avos d’rebbe boich, or Torah Beis Kisey, or Rabbi Asher Yatzar’s classic political writings ( Reb Doniel, you should quote him by name!) ( SEFER Bar Bey Rav D’ Chad Yoma). But you won’t! Because they aren’t googlable!
Again, you lack the education about basic core Jewish values. Stick to morals, my dear troll. Go vote for all those democratic tzaquim (how did you spell it? and nevi – ah yes, a nevi. Maybe Nebi. We only listen to the words of a Nebi, not Nevi! Do better homework next time. You know, like Nebi Samuel in Israel…nebish )
And how exactly can Jewish not be Torah Observant? Not that a proud one wouldn’t, especially not one who is preaching core Jewish values…
Back to troll school. Maybe try to be a muslim…wait…no…they don’t need to be convinced to vote democratic. Wonder why. Guess they got those core Jewish values. Wait…
Have fun with Matthew.
…not that, being a proud Jew, you’d be quoting matthew. Oops!
Brachot 1b…check it out.
I have not enjoyed a thread this much in a while.
The Torah teaches us not to be narrow minded. And since I am right, you must be narrow minded. This is great stuff!
I am not Pious. Merely intelligent and troll proof – at least, the obvious ones. Bye Troll! You are certainly a big enough poskin for anyone. great nebi poskin! Hurray for Obama! Hurray for Nebi Poskin!November 1, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711733
So squeak – you agree with me? Reliable internal investigation first, before we go to the DA? And develop the resources for such an investigation? Or hirer those who can – before the police?November 1, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705574
Sorry, you lost as your credibility trying to pose as one of us. Now, run off to your phone bank, you’ve got a lot of work to do to make sure you don’t lose the senate ( I mean , congress isn’t worth wasting your time over).
Next time, use an artscroll talmud. See page 1b of Tractate Brachot, to see what I mean. The secret of winning the election is written there.
Hurray! Two years of gridlock until we get rid of Obama. Just…no Palin please? It hurt me to vote for her last time. She needs help. Which is why we need Obamacare. Because she can’t afford it.
I doubt we’ll see ludwig again. He’s busy, he’ll find another site to troll on. Love the music! Adios!November 1, 2010 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711729
Sof – The Gemara in Bava Basra says that a single man should not teach young children – because maybe he will come to –
It could happen to any of us. It’s not just evil. 80% of molesters were molested. As aries pointed out, one molesters breeds others.
This fact shouldn’t change our resolve in doing whatever is necessary to protect our kids.
This DIn of a molester? This is the first I’m hearing to this Psak; I certainly could hear it being true. Certainly if we’re talking about actualy rape. But even without that, Halachicly we are permitted to do Avid Inish Din L’Atzmay – when we cannot stop a person from doing any damage. The word Rodef halachically seems strong; lives are ruined, and the suicide rate is higher – but rodef? I could hear it, and that’s what we have Poskim for.
Best restaurant in the entire universe. Worth a trip from mars. It’s the one thing good about NYC 🙂November 1, 2010 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711725
But they’ve proven themselves unreliable; come now, you’ve worked in this field – you haven’t seen it? And we need don’t have the expertise necessary – we need to get it, and get educated. But without proof, I’m not willing to kill innocent people because maybe one is a liar.
And the police can do plenty without cooperation from the parents. They can prosecute based on the testimony of a child – they can make the child testify w/o parental consent, they can pressure the parents with charges of neglect and obstruction of justice, they can go after custody, frankly, their standard of proof just doesn’t make the cut. Once you give it to them, the genie is out of the bottle.
If you back out of an investigation, they have ways of making you squawk. They can have the police psychologist testify, the officers you made the initial report to – it ain’t fun. They may not get their verdict, at least they can make your life a living hell and rack up hundred of thousands in legal fees that no one will help you with, and publicly destroy your reputation.
Too many people have sat too long. Come on, you’ve been in field. They prosecute when they shouldn’t , and plea with people they should prosecute. The real ones seem to only get a slap on the wrist.
They just aren’t trustworthy. I can only feed them someone when I know this person will strike again. And if I don’t have the expertise, I need to get it. There are PI firms that specialize in this, and they are not obligated reporters.
And again – I’m not doubting this psak, but to whom was it given? Rodef is a chiddush, but I certainly hear it. And for a Rodef, you are not allowed to punish; you are only allowed to prevent (even by killing him). If you can do it without the police, you must. Unfortunately, there really is no way without the police, accept for making our own hit squad. Which isn’t a bad idea.
Again, once we get our proof – by all means necessary.
And remember, we both want to protect our kids. I just don’t want witch trials.
In summary, until now, there has not been enough awareness, a lot of fear by Rabbonim (who are human) & communities, – but now as a community, we are smarter.
The police however, I have seen – individuals cases! with me own two eyes – free the guilty and prosecute the innocent.
I have seen a Rosh Yeshiva shake his head at me – “Yes , it’s true the Social Worker believes the girl, but I need more. Oy! I wish I could read minds!” and neither could I.
I want us to build the community resources to investigate to reasonable standard of proof that this person will strike again. If not, we are going to destroy the innocent – an equal crime. And if we are in doubt – we need to separate the accused from children, quietly, without harming him. Because we have no right if we are in doubt. Being a Moser is based on this point – that we cannot trust the government to be fair and honest. And experience has shown this. Not just the Duke trial.
An organization, which will post a person’s name & picture based on a single person hearsay is evil – not only because they have nor right to harm him, but because they destroy the credibility of other victims. If we give in to hysteria, NO ONE will cooperate. And then we are back where we started. Sechel, Halacha, and determination the whole way. It can be done. I am not going to send a Rebbe to sing sing to get **** for 10 to 15 years based on an unsubstantiated therapist approved child’s testimony. They lie. It’s a reality. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don’t.
A child’s testimony should start an investigation by professionals – again, get a real firm to do it, spend some money. But don’t call 911 unless you know it’s going to happen again.
And I believe that in 90% of cases -if not 95% – if you do a professional investigation, which requires merely money and expertise, not police assistance – you will find additional proof. Internet records. Other kids (not connected to the original victim). A history of accusations in a his previous employment. Profiling. But I need more; I don’t read minds.
And then, I would fully cooperate with the police. Until then – I’m sorry officer, I cannot get involved.November 1, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705572
Ludwig, in a word, busted. Nice try though.November 1, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711714
Aries – I believe he should be turned over to the police (R’ Elyashiv said Rodef? Fascinating – how did you hear that?). I just want to be sure that he is a molester. S-x crime today has entered the realm of McCarthyism; and there is no turning back an accusation, and the police are not reliable. It’s the realty.
As far as Rabbonim, many did fight, for the record. Again, people tried to settle things quietly. It would have been wonderful if it worked.
Also, Rabbonim can be fooled; Rabbonim are human. There are multipel agendas, they are not always right – but they always try. And if there is greater awareness, Mah Tov U’Mah Naim.
It didn’t work; I think most Rabbonim would tell you to hang them out to dry. All I want – is to be sure, and conduct some sort of internal investigation before we deliver them to the police, and – not be gleeful.
Law Enforcement make their careers on this sort of thing; they simple can’t be trusted unless we are sure. And if we aren’t equipped, we need to get equipped with an internal task force – like Takana in Israel. We need to get educated – do we want our Rebbeim hung out to dry like those boys in Duke? Nifong got disbarred; there lives are still destroyed. And what if they hadn’t been wealthy, and were able to afford the best legal help? They would be sitting in prisons for twenty years, and Nifong would have gotten reelected. And it was the perfect storm – the media ate it up – prust college white spoiled kids, poor black girl…the media will eat whatever we feed them.
We need to be careful. if you are sure – internally! based on all of the methods I mentioned before – kill’em. And then cry that you had to.
Aries, do you really disagree?November 1, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705566
Gavra – I think they have one in Sanhedria Murchevet.
Ludwig – are you Jewish? Simple question. Until you can answer that question, please don’t interpret our Torah for us. We’ve been doing it for a while. I wouldn’t interpret Matthew & Luke for you.
It is insulting.
And I didn’t say if I agreed with the tea party or not ( I don’t. I think Palin should be put in a sideshow).
I said you are a troll. That’s my main ideological point. It’s dishonest for a Christian to come here and try to interpret our tradition for us. I’m fine with discussing morals with you, but not my tradition. That’s for us.
You are engaging in “stealth campaigning” presumably bankrolled by some 527 group. Wait. We don’t need those anymore. You are being dishonest. What does Jewish Law say about that? Or Christian law?
You aren’t being very Christian. Tsk tsk.
Please, no more hyperbole. Just answer my question.
Chevra, maybe let’s hold off the lomdus till ludwig clarifies who he is. I believe he is a troll. Google his screenname, if you’d like to find out more. Err Iz Nit Fun Unzer.November 1, 2010 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm in reply to: How can Torah Observant Jews vote Republican with the TeaPartyers taking over? #705548
Wow…I hope you get passed the rolling stone edition and pirkey avos. While I’m not a big of chasid of the tea party and think a lot of them are loons, and do not agree with them on many things ( if not most) your basic & selective quoting ignores and twists many fundamental Jewish concepts. Judaism is not liberal socialism. Twisted my friend. On many points, you have made vast assumptions (basically, since it’s obvious the liberals are right, therefore, of course the Torah agrees with them, because it’s right as well).
I could quote chazal about homosexuality, quote chazal about earning a living, quote chazal about not relying on one’s government, and wonder where exactly chazal spoke about the enviroment, and perhaps quote chazal’s approach to warfare, I quote chazal about modesty, I could quote chazal about promiscuity…or about the fact that God actually does love some people more then others…or about what chazal teach us about various races…
but since you’re not going to find that in your stone edition, we’ll just leave it out, eh?
But you could take that up with the Author. And my striemel.
How do you know Moshe Rabbenu wore a striemel?
Well, it says he went up to Har Sinia!
But it doesn’t say he wore a striemel!
Nu! Do you think he would have gone without his Striemel?
It’s cute, though. Even clever.
Ben torah – I think , I actually agree with you. L’Chaim!
Hail Beethoven the hardworking preelection democratic staffer!
Even the most diehard Jewish dem wouldn’t call the dems tzaddikim.
I’m actually serious. This sounds too canned to come from anyone else. And only a staffer would speak in the first person – you know, to be one of us. I betcha he’s got a shtickel torah for the christian sites as well.
Yes, I’m calling you a sock puppet. If I’m wrong, please tell us…something that tells us that you’re not! Tell me, who is the acknowledged Gadol HaDor today – other then R’ Yehudah Levin?
Are you even Jewish?
Do you guys need help? I can write you shtickel torahs; I charge hourly.
Anyone else agree?November 1, 2010 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711706
Ramat is right; the molesters prey on uncared & unloved children, children with broken homes that no one will follow up with, children that are more vulnerable. Never with the child who’s parents are capable of bringing hell down on them (which they well should!). Never with the child who has a healthy sense of self & boundaries, and know when they are violated – because of healthy, proactive parenting. Never the parents who’s children are confident enough in their parents love to confide in them something that made them feel – violated & used.
They go after the kid that no one really cares about anyway. And the family that will be even more ostracized if they go public; how dare they accuse ___________.
So aren’t we all guilty?
Maybe those of you who know that all of our problems are because of our mosdos should start perfect mosdos?October 31, 2010 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm in reply to: Molesters: Why Do Some In Our Community Cover For Them? #711699
80% of molesters have been molested themselves. Unfortunately, in my line of work, I’ve seen both sides of this horrible coin.
Children lie. Women in divorce proceedings lie. Over and over. It’s sad. But the Torah’s standard is golden; I refuse to destroy someone’s life on the say so of a child.
But I will install hidden cameras. I will profile the accused. I will do a background check (if I haven’t already, as a responsible employer). I will get the child a full examination by a rape nurse, and obtain whatever physical evidence I can.
Heck, I will ask for identifying marks and follow the guy into the mikvah ( I haven’t had the zechus, but I know someone who arranged a PI to do so).
90% of the time, you can get what you need that way. You are obligated to look. But if you don’t find – don’t you dare destroy the man’s life, wife , children, career and future. As oomis illustrated – how easy it is to destroy someone’s life. Think Salem Witch trials.
And of course, if you have two children – in different classes, or different schools, etc. (because kids unfortunately do work in groups some times) – or three – well, it’s time to get the wood burning. Or the molesters.
But it’s not enough – the mere say so of a child – to deliver him to the police, whom have vindicated the guilty and jailed innocent too many times.
And what about once I have evidence? 80& of molesters were molested themselves. I spoke to a Forensic Psychologist who described child molesters as addicts. Ohel even has an anonymous line for them to get help (treatment is available). Of course, the potential molester will have to go into another line of work. Like coal mining. In new zealand.
Once upon a time we had hoped that it would be enough to approach a molester and say “you will quit your job. you will leave the community. you will never teacher youngster again – or else”.
That didn’t work. Molesters lie. Molesters know the game, of statues of limitations and the fear of the victim to step forward, and the community humiliation that will be heaped upon him. Molesters are victims, just like abusive husband were abused. Our first concern is the wife. As Aries pointed out , though they were abused themselves – they are very cunning ( I suppose the word evil is appropriate as well).
But if we don’t have a child willing to testify – what exactly can we do? If we go public, we get busted for libel, because we don’t have legal proof. And if we get proof, a principal needs to weigh that against the destruction of his school. Ouch.
Ultimately though, those are risk you need to take – if you have proof. But it ain’t easy. What do I really wish for? For these cases to be dealt with quietly and permanently – that when an underground beis din has sufficient proof – to end the problem, by any means necessary. My grandfather A”H told me that’s what they did in Europe.
That’s why I think Agudah’s opposing the legislation removing the statue of limitations on institutional liability was a good idea. Because schools will be willing to come down on an abuser much quicker – if it doesn’t mean the legal destruction of the school.
Again, you can’t purely rely on a child. But a smart school – or even private PI firm – which works based on confidentiality and is not obligated to report it’s findings to the government – can usually figure out what really is going on.
Getting somebody’s internet records is relatively easy with a little know how. And trust me, if he did something to a child, you’ll see it in his internet usage. But you need correlation before you destroy someone.
Etc., etc. And from all of this you can see why the system doesn’t work so well. Yet.
We need to educate our schools on profiling, and investigation. And the guilty? Hang’em out to dry.
As far as using goyish courts, we are permitted to use to get something done that we can’t in Beis Din. Beis Din simply does not have the power to stop a molester. If we have the Halachic standard of proof that this man is a molester, the next stop is the DA’s office. The Halachic imperative is protect the child. From any definition, it is Nezek. Any Nezek, which does not cease – we may do whatever is necessary to stop the nezek (Avid Ish Din L’Atzmay). Nevermind if it reaches the stage of mazilin b’nafsho. Even without that, if Beis Din cannot stop it (the most they can do – is order him to stop it! and a Yareh Shamayim he’s not) – they we must get the police involved, and assist however we can.
But we should cry after we do. Because the Torah is commanding us to kill a sick yid. True, it is what we must do. But at least – let us cry afterward, for the victim hood that made him a monster, for the system that didn’t save him from his abuser.
Let us not say “no rachamus” – after we’ve protected his victim and future victims ( by all means necessary!).
Let us help his wife, children. Let us not make them community pariahs – for what have they done? And if he has truly done his time, and takes up gainful work in mining in New Zealand – let us let him rebuild his broken life and broken soul (though quietly watch him carefully).
While I appreciate your passion for these children – I believe in the Halachic process. I don’t believe in Doctors. A doctor will shoot first and ask question later, because he’s obligated to report anything, and wants to cover himself.
I think the approach of running to the police first will destroy innocent lives – no less of a crime! I have a lot of firsthand experience – which I wish I didn’t have – ( as it seems, you do as well), the nitty gritty type, with victims and abusers – and the innocent. The “take the decision out of your hands” approach will hurt more then it save.
Though I agree with you that we need a better system them we have now (Chicago’s abuse Beis Din is a great idea) – your approach would have had oomis’s husband behind bars, had he not had others there.
In summary, we need an internal system with teeth.
And Rabbonim are not malachim. Maybe if there income wasn’t constantly based on the whims of the board members, they would be able to take more risks. If we want real independent Rabbonim, we need to make a system for such.
Ah yes, Popa and Machiavelli team up to fix Khal Yisrael. Problem is, I suspect you’re both right.October 27, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm in reply to: What Product, Device, Etc Would You Like To See Made? #704295
idiot repellentOctober 27, 2010 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm in reply to: What REALLY happened with those boys that OTD en masse? #704850
Ah, the OU started making tuna on the moon… 🙂
Wow. No Yated online, eh? I recall someone humiliating me ten years ago as a teenager. It still hurts now when I think about it.
Klal Gadol – if someone had the secrets to making money, he wouldn’t be selling them. He would be making money, and wouldn’t have to sell how to make money, in order to make money!October 27, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm in reply to: What REALLY happened with those boys that OTD en masse? #704847
The dolphins talk on the moon? Cool.
Gavra, R’ Moshe was fighting a different battle; I believe he was talking about the purpose of your life – if you are becoming a Doctor, that is your mode of self-expression.
Today in frum land you need 150k (in NYC) to make ends meet with a healthy size family – tuition, chasunas. Certainly R’ Moshe wasn’t referring to that. And often, the only way to do that is with a degree, etc.
I think R’ Moshe meant Academia & YU, in that your career is the point of your life. Not Yeshivish guy who’s financial ambition is pay full tuition and maybe keep a son-in-law in Kollel for a few years – so he does whatever he can to do so. I think R’ Moshe certainly would have agreed he was a Ben torah. Either that, or R’ Moshe is reserving the term for full-time learners and kley kodesh.
The pull – is overwhelming. The feeling of disgust – is overwhelming. They weren’t merely speaking of shemiras einayim, but of the resulting addictions. It’s an epidemic. And yes, it’s a major, major cause of OTD – in all ages.
Honestly, I’m not particularly interested in what you have to say; given your childish – and insulting – and sourceless! totally sourceless! – way of expressing yourself. Please , do not trouble yourself on my behalf; I do not require your arrogance or ignorance. I do not need your assistance in learning, nor advice.
I sincerely hope one day you learn how to speak like a Ben Torah.
I refuse to engage the arrogant in a Torah discussion. Look at other threads, I have what to say. But not to you.
The Torah is never expressed with arrogance or a patronizing tone. One may be sure that the speaker has never entered true Halachic knowledge; as the Chazon Ish explains – that without middos, Torah can never be attained.
I am quoting the ruling of the Minchas Yitzchak, in the first chelek. I did not say that was the Halacha; I said it was a possibility. I was bringing in another possibility. This is the halachic process, not arrogance.
And please drop the “due respect” garbage. Either speak respectfully, or don’t. But if you must speak like a child to satiate your ego, at least be brave enough to leave off the silly disclaimer. I will not take part in discussion with you further.
No, Tireh Bridah, that’s the shaala- are they disagreeing? Or are they just saying examples to illustrate the point.
I have to dig up sources on this later. I think there’s a diyun on this in pischey brachos, I’ll check later.
Trolling seems like some really amusing. I’ll start now, I’ll make up a screen name later-
AN IMPORTANT LESSON FOR PEOPLE FROM FLATBUSH
I recently decided that everyone who lives in Flatbush is going to Gehenom. This mevuar in Toras Beis Kisay Chelek Daled, where he explains that flatbush is bgematria G E H E N O M. And it’s really pashut. My rosh yeshiva, who is very chashuv , told me the same thing.
And it’s really a mefurasha posuk, because Avraham Avinu let Hakadosh Baruch Hu destroy Sdom, and Flatbush is really like Sdom. So we see that Avraham Avinu wanted to destroy Flatbush (I mean, assuming it had no tzaddikim in it, and you can’t be a tzadik if you live in flatbush, so obviously Avraham believed that everyone in Flatbush is a menuval and that it should be destroyed).
This is Daas Torah berurah! And if you disagree, it’s becaused you are influenced by Blogs! And your blackberry! And Shvigger!
Are YOU really big enough to argue on Avraham Avinu? Shoteh! We all need to realize our katanus, and just be mekabel my Daas Torah, because anivus is a very chashuveh middah, just like with Avraham Avinu. And not believe anything you read in a blog. Except mine.
Dah! There is a difference between compromise and gradualism. We are taught not to jump Dargos; to absorb things piece by piece. There is a difference between step by step; we cannot always live all our ideals but we can still strive for them and it doesn’t make us hypocrites! It makes us human, with nisayonos, with having a reason for being alive. Saying “I believe in that but I’m not ready for it yet, but IYH I will be” is perfectly valid.October 27, 2010 11:54 am at 11:54 am in reply to: What REALLY happened with those boys that OTD en masse? #704831
No to get too personal here, but I was that kid. I had the issues, and I had the questions. And then I got angry. I fought with my rebbeim. I asked questions, and people got angry at me for it. So I began to read. And read. I read the Koran, the New Testament, Kant, Plato, Aristotle; Spinoza & Descartes- I read Moreh Nevuchim and Shaar HaYichud, the Kuzari and…started calling R’ Avigdor Miller. And reading his books. His clarity – the fact that somebody cared to think about all this – made a tremendous impression on me.
I used to wander, late late at night, thinking, thinking , thinking…
After thinking, writing – and finally, finding one understanding Rebbe, I found a base that made everything else worth fighting through. I left high school with a base, a basis, that stays with me today.
Minyan Gal – offering me Judaism lite wouldn’t have worked, nor has it worked for a dying american conservative & reform Jewish population in the swamp of intermarriage and disinterest, where a check to the UJA apparently has not been able to fill the need for meaning, which in a two generations won’t even exist. And it never stops with Judaism lite, it means throwing out all the basic principles of Judaism; a Judaism not worth fighting for. At least when you have nothing you can’t fool yourself that you have something. That what the Israelis do; if there be Judaism in their lives, they want it to be Orthodox. And that’s why the Baal Teshuvah movement there has broken three hundred thousand.
What I wanted wasn’t something lite; that was more garbage. I wanted something real.
There is another aspect – – that it may be that the rishonim in paas habah b’kisin are merely examples of snack-bread, but the real principles is it meal-bread, or snack bread. Is it meant to be filling? If that’s the case, one could say that pizza is a filling food, and even when you are not be koveah suedeh, you would have to wash, just like regular bread. A similar line of reasoning could be made for a bagel dog – even though it’s memulah, it’s meal bread. Or pancakes. Or blintzes. All would have this question. They are memulah, and may even be made with fruit juice, but it could be that that is not the crux of the issue, but the issue is – is a single blintz a snack? Or is it a meal food, merely you are snacking on it.
Is pizza beztem a snack food – like cake ? Isn’t it betzem a meal? I mean, you could also eat bread as a snack.
Brisker, please don’t ever seek a career in trying to teach or inspire young people – or old people, or any people for that matter.
Sheesh. She is trying to grow and figure things out. Is it impossible to talk respectfully? Don’t be a jerk.October 26, 2010 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm in reply to: Time For Truth: Why Won't You Date A Ba'alas Teshuva? #710070
Well, there you have it.
apashutayid- you are correct. Hence, the vacuum. It’s a semantics issue; Reb Moshe saw the term as referring to the ideal and ultimate Sheifah. AKA, no Torah Im Derech Eretz.
Today we mean the new concept of “Ben Torah Baaleh Bus” who learned a number of years in yeshiva and perhaps Kollel, is kovey itim and has yeshivish haskafos and shemiras halacha, and raises his home in such a way. True. I agree 100%.
And I have great respect for a Ben Torah who enters the work force, and seeks a parnasa which is nekiah v’kalla – often business and the like. And often he makes more money that way. He becomes a toenail clipper import exporter, which doesn’t sound as cool as corporate lawyer, but often finds that when the toenail market is going well, he makes more cash then the lawyer, and has far more time to learn because he doesn’t have to have “billable hours”. Kol HaKavod! (Not to put down frum lawyers, chas v’chalilah, merely adding the maaleh of dropping the need for respect from your parnasa, and focusing on making cash, and being a great father, husband – and Eved Hashem).
I hate translating, because so much is lost, but here you go. And yes, I had to add a little here and there, because some things don’t translate.
…And that which you have written, that many Yerim V’Sheleim who work in various professional fields, still their main goal in life is Torah and mitzvos – you ask, are they not Bney Torah??
And I answer, I have already written that they are Anishm Kasherim, yet it is not possible to consider them Bney Torah –
Because although the Torah was lenient, that not everyone is totally obligated to become a Talmid Chacham – yet the name Bney Torah & Talmid Chacham is reserved for someone who does the mitzvah of Talmud Torah properly, that is, to be worthy of the crown of Torah. And that is only one who does not spend his time on anything else, merely business or work in order to live minimally . And when he cannot obtain that, he eats from Tzeddaka.
And for hundred of years we have permitted people to work in Rabbinics for payment, or being a magid shiur in Yeshivos, and then certainly one could take such a position.
But if one does not wish to have such a position, but seeks a trade which will take up his entire day, because he seeks riches, and certainly if his goal is to be a Doctor or an Engineer – that then one must leave his Torah completely for many years, even before he will make any money, and he will require loans and gifts to learn these trades – it is not possible to think that a Ben Torah could be developed in such a way.October 26, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm in reply to: Time For Truth: Why Won't You Date A Ba'alas Teshuva? #710057
Right, MDD, it’s a nice cliche, but doesn’t really mean anything.
In shidduchim you suppose to look for the best you can. Nekudah.
Yes, and it’s not fair.
And it’s what you are suppose to do. You are suppose to prioritize in a logical way. And yes, that many will fall between the cracks. But you still need to prioritize in a logical way. These is genuinely no other way to do it. You are suppose to go with a definite rather then something doubtful. Just like when you do anything else on earth, like hirer employees. It’s not fair, maybe the guy with a degree with CUNY is better then the guy from MIT. True. Maybe MIT guy got in because he was a legacy. But we still need to live in this world. Cliches don’t help. IYH, she will marry a fine Ben Torah, and her children won’t have this challenge.
Just because there’s a sad reality doesn’t mean there is someone to blame for it.
??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ??
???”? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? – ??? ???? ????? ??? ????. ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????. ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???. ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ????. ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????. ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????. ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????, ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????, ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???, ??? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ????, ?? ???? ????? ??? ??????, ??”? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????, ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????, ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???.
Well, there you have. Yes, I know I am quoting in a vacuum. Just adding some fuel to the fire 🙂
800 222 234 (*8900)
You need to keep the filtering level high to really be effective, but if you do – and you can be phone – it’s almost full proof. I find Shamur2 (filtration level) excellent, and I may switch to Etrog soon (the super charedi edition). (not totally full proof, because all you need to bypass would a pw & username from another service, so make sure you have a computer based filter as well, such as K9 or netnanny or webchaver. Oh, and get a keystroke recorder as well. Chamirah Sakanta MIsurah).
Neto.Net.ILOctober 26, 2010 11:59 am at 11:59 am in reply to: Time For Truth: Why Won't You Date A Ba'alas Teshuva? #710040
Mdd, is there a better way? A list of twenty girls, – it’s wrong not to check out each one and not have a filtering mechanism? That’s how the world works; shidduchim are not a gemach. It’s not fair. I know. But because it’s not fair doesn’t mean it’s broken. I don’t believe things can be different. Stereotypes exist and are useful; we just need to play them as best as we can.
No, you won’t.
IYH you will have an excellent boy, fine & shtark (from Brisk, of course), and you too will be inundated with phone calls and names. And you to will say “DAAAH! Ok, let’s, they say this seminary is excellent, these families seem great – OK, that will give me five names. And this one taught my daughter last year, and the fact they have money doesn’t hurt, and Chani told me she was really pretty, so I’m going to check into her first. And take the phone off the hook.”
And if someone redts your gem a Baalas Teshuvah, you too smile politely and not write down the name. At best, presumably you won’t be insulted.
You should be zoche to see my words come true; this is the way it is, and I don’t believe it can be differently.
And it will be unfair. And it will be the only thing you’ll be able to do. Because it will be about your son, not about fair. And why not go with the shidduch without any question marks? Of course, you may feel a nagging guilt, but your son will take priority.
Again, doesn’t mean it’s fair. It’s not. But nothing is fair; that is the nature of this world. Play the system; we just need to wary of believing in the system – and letting it define who we are. Because the system gives you a hard time doesn’t that will be any less of a wife. It’s just, well , the system.
Gevaltdik. Viter in Shas. How about those jets?October 25, 2010 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm in reply to: Time For Truth: Why Won't You Date A Ba'alas Teshuva? #710027
Yes, people stereotype. For all of the concerns people wrote – even if they do not apply to you. Shidduchim run on stereotypes. Lists. Numbers. Labels. It keeps the process somewhat efficient; in a world with lists and lists of eligible young people we need to have some sort of sorting process.
And yes, that means that some eligible people will lose out because of the system. But a system we need. Be nice if it was better. But it ain’t.
As you agree, there are valid concerns with a Baal Teshuvah; true, checking could eliminate many of them (though not all). But is it reasonable to expect every mom to check every single girl thoroughly? Obviously, there has to be something to start with; and that’s going to be based on labels and stereotypes. And labels are helpful, even if they aren’t perfect.
Yes, you’re getting a raw deal from the system. Unfortunately , you are not it’s only victim. So are boys who didn’t go to Lakewood, girl’s who’s dream sem already took two girls from her city, a child of divorced parents, and anybody who’s name sounds funny. It’s another challenge of being a Baalas Teshuvah; sounds like you’ve had others and beat those.
Be stubborn. Keep pushing. It only takes one. Yes, and you may have “pay” for your stereotype for someone’s else stereotype, and you’ll cancel each other out.
I was once asked by a girl from an excellent sem & family – she was redt to a boy from …an excellent yeshiva…and heard the finest things about him from his Roshey Yeshiva etc.. She was all set, until her brother vetoed it. Apparently he hadn’t davened with a minyan for two years.
She was very hurt; – she could have been a victim of the system, too! – who, she wanted to know, who, ended up marrying these fakers?
“The chashuveh prutzas in your chashuvah sem” I answered. She was happy. Fakers will marry fakers. Real people will marry real people. Divorces happen when they mix. Labels are labels.
We use them to narrow down the list.
Hashem uses them to play us like a broken fiddle.
How many boys with excellent resumes are abusers, addicts, mental illness…bedikos are a segulah, but not a havtacha…OY!
Stereotypes cut both ways. Hashem works out the real deal. Real things can never make it to a piece of paper; but alas, we can’t date everyone.
Your Bashert may have had a rough family life, or some meaningless childhood disease, or some other stereotype, that will force him to see past yours. And he will be lucky that he was forced to.
Or he may just rely on his Aunt who won’t stop badgering him (Aunts are good. Not as protective as Moms, but with a lot of influence).
So yeah, it’s real. There are so many questions it’s hard to start asking unless you have to. But what does that have to do with God?
Hatzlacha!October 25, 2010 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm in reply to: Time For Truth: Why Won't You Date A Ba'alas Teshuva? #709988
I think we should start a new catergory, – how about BTFB?
Angst. Yeah, cow who moo and do exactly what they are told don’t have angst. You angst will lead you in either one of two direction. Either you it can pull you of the D to satisfy your angst that way (which never actually works). Or you can use your angst to become truly great, to become REAL. Your call.
Get the answers you need. Become proactive; no one can do it for you. Search. Check out Aish.com, call up an intelligent teacher and spill the beans, stop being afraid of not being typical. Search. Discover. Read ‘Rejoice O Youth’ By R’ Avigdor Miller – heck, go to the book store and read the stuff you’ve never read before, challenge a Teacher/Rav with question you’ve never asked before.
Find out who you are. If you dare, I promise you’ll be thrilled with the answer.
Another problem is that too often they get it wrong; I don’t believe in the system enough to let it make absolute, irrevocable decisions. It’s messed up too many times. And after you kill the guy, DNA ain’t gonna help.
I’m fine with them cooking a cold blooded killer (or rapist! the recent supreme court ruling on that was wrong – cruel & unusual my foot.) I want them to make sure they cook the right guy.
As far the mentally impaired, I’m a little torn about that. If they are capable of punishment – life in prison, say – then why are they less deserving of the chair? (Or chamber, injection…)
Poor Stiepler. I’ve heard and read so many different spins on “what he really” and ‘whom he was talking to”…oy, Yiftach B’Doro K’Shmuel B’Doro…there is no acception for live, breathing Gedoley Olam to say “no, really, that’s what I meant. Really.”
Listen, dargas dargas. What’s good for the Gerrer Goose is Good for the Gerrer Gander..October 23, 2010 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm in reply to: YWN Asks Rav Moshe Shternbuch About R' Yehuda Levin #703117
Excellent YWN! Thank you for clarifying that. Excellent, excellent, excellent.
An Idea- It is most certainly forbidden. Rashi quotes V’Davak Bah, V’Lo B’Zachar (it is a Gemara in Mesechta Avodah Zara); presumably it is in the catergory of gilui arayos, but that is speculation.October 22, 2010 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm in reply to: What did Pregnant Women drink For Pesach before Kedem Grape Juice? #703087
Why does every simple question have to get personal? Firstly, Bombmaniac, his question is indeed valid. Ess HaBatzir was succos time (Chag HaAsif) and without modern refrigetation, presumably your choice was between drinking your grape juice or fermenting it into wine (points if someone gets in the interesting R’ Moshe about this).
I think Pesach time they takeh didn’t have grape juice.
And Bomb, even if someone doesn’t chas vchalilah think before they post, do you have to be obnoxious? Play nice.
But as to the OP’s question, if you use a min. shiur of a revis – of 3 oz, and drink only Rov , you’ve got only 1.6 Oz per cup. Of course, others hold even a cheekful suffices, and then you could drink only an oz (each individual is different). So over the entire four kosos, they only drank about five oz – nothing any OB would get excited over, – once a year! Kiddush, if you are being yotzeh – they had a sip.
Though the miscarriage rate was much higher then, as want infant and child mortality. Whatever we can do to prevent miscarriages, we certainly should do.
I think legalizing drugs would definetely solve the shidduch crisis. Only boys are dumb enough to do drugs, more guys OD, and viola, you’ve gotten an even number of boys and girls.
I think this is sacriledge’s real motivation.
speaking of ODing…October 19, 2010 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm in reply to: An important lesson from last weeks parsha for married people #702552