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Dear Damoshe,
You are obviously misunderstanding something. Such an obviously wrong idea couldn’t have been anyone’s intention.
Dear Yabia,
I have to think about this second layer.
Anyways, you left out tosofos itself.
Dear Youdont,
Eruvin is one of the most learned mesechtos by kolleliet today.
There was much more to Rav Moshe’s stance than population by area. Your entire knowledge of Rav Moshe’s teshuva seems to come down to just the parts where the word ‘chiddush’ is included. It’s like learning the whole Shulchan Aruch in the old print, but just where the pointing finger was inserted.
Rav Moshe published how he understood the sugya. He paskened according to how the public would treat the issue. Puk chazi how Hilchos Eruvin is slowly unraveling.
Dear Youdont,
The issues of proper construction and frequently checked, are even greater factors in the year 2023.
I have no idea what the debate at hand is. It is hard for me to isolate your posts to a single point.
Dear Youdont,
So to be clear, Rav Moshe’s opinion was against eruvin in Brooklyn. You don’t have to agree with it. Or even know why it fits with what he writes, but that was without a doubt his actual opinion.
Dear Youdont,
Modern American Cities are set up very differently than cities in prewar Europe. The suburb was just coming into existence. This is a major key to reading all the teshuvos from that era.
Dear Youdont,
The CJLS understands Eruv as a neighborhood marker. They considered entire regions to be enclosed by eruvin. They allowed driving to shul in 1950. By the sixties, the laymen were driving everywhere.
Which sentence is outlandish and needs a source?
Davening to the Rebbe is a major tenet of the Baal Shem’s teaching. What it meant is a major dispute. That was the Rebbe’s topic. He was defending the notion. Not creating a new one. What he meant is another dispute.
The fact is that these three minhagim are not unique to Chabad. they were prickly issues in White Russia from before the days of Chassidus. The fourth one was Tefillen on chol hamoed. It’s funny that nobody here has a problem with that.
The God Embodied concept is not the same as Christianity. It is closer to Islamic Mysticism than Christian Theology. I’m not going to link to Kabbalistic sources that I do not understand. But there wasn’t anything new here. This why some anti Chabdniks call the Tanya kefira.
Shabbsai Tzvi was the first time these ideas were debated openly across the Jewish (And Muslim.) World. But it had been in the open for three hundred fifty years. If you want to ban this kind of Torah, start with the Zohar.
Dear Avira,
The majority of the Rebbes were clamoring to speak with him. He was in touch with Gedolim from all parts of the Diaspora. He had some correspondence with Rav Moshe. Unlike some others, Rav Moshe did not have to explain him things. He was Ari Shebechabura by Rav Weinberg in Berlin. The Lakwood Yeshivaliet would go to his farbreingins because they liked his lomdus.
If your position would be that he was a flawed human being, you could get away with that. (Unless the mods don’t want that debate.) If you think he was mistaken or delusional about certain things, very few people can assert the truth, so you’ll win the debate. But to say he wasn’t a gaon when his genius blew away some of his greatest detractors and he has thousands of profound and deep writings, makes you lose all the debates. From your ability to admit the truth, he could easily be alive and sitting right next to you.
I wish you would take this advice, because once you wrap your head around how great he was according to the yeshivishe standards of a gadol you would have a much easier time debating Chabad. When you write everything off, you lose. This is the primary reason that Chabad increased it’s dominance since the Rebbe died.
Dear Avira,
Just take back murder. This is not a reason to redefine the Torah’s definition of murder. How do you not realize your talking about retzicha?!?
Dear Avira,
My mistake. Iraqi Jews was NCB replying to AAQ.
It’s in Sefer Chazon Ish.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14334&st=&pgnum=118
The sugya isn’t anan sahadi. It is how to ascertain that food is prepared in a kosher manner. Rav Belsky had higher standards than Rav Moshe in general. Accordingly, it becomes a kulah. I’m sure you know that Rav Belsky was meticulous with his halachic approach. Your not quoting the Igros correctly. But even like you say, it doesn’t help your argument. Rav Moshe is very clear that it is muttar without any kula.
I don’t understand how this can be a machlokes what Rav Moshe himself held. He had chalav hacompanies in his house. There are many living witnesses to this.
Dear Neville,
I wasn’t offended by the term. I’m only vaguely aware of the context in the larger discussion.
Chalav hacompanies is not a kula at all. It just happens to be that there is another (possibly better) option.
Chodosh is a kula in some sense. But I think the term should not be applied when there is so much precedent.
Dear Neville,
Someone else did to me. I responded. He ran away as always. And you chimed in. ?
“It takes a much greater posek..”
Agreed. I’m not personally invested here. If kula means something that we should be hesitant about, then I strongly disagree. If it only means that we should be careful not to take it further, I can’t argue too much.
But once the Rema and the Bach wrote that and the following generations allowed it to stand, it is obvious that this was the standard. Compare with raisin wine that was continually being revisited and challenged.
Because the lines of Chabad, Yeshivish, and Chassidush, have been redrawn. Learning Chassidus shouldn’t cause a radical shift in a yeshivaman’s thinking.
There is no bittul b’rov here for every possible reason.
Dear Da,
Yes, a million percent. Not everyone can do everything. Some people can’t even spend ten hours straight over a Gemara!
Dear Neville,
The point mentioned in this debate was not knowing toras hachasidus. That is not a factor anymore.
Most of our kashrus today is commercial. Getting hung up on what the symbols on the packaging says, doesn’t tell you if it’s a chumrah or kulah. [Example: Muchzak bli tolayim when there are aphids still on the leaves. The same is true for meat and dairy.]
There are kashrus standards for you own kitchen. In someone (That you would marry or learn Torah from.) else’s kitchen, you take on their standards. You have specific kulos for when you are in tight situations.
This is all routine. The real question is, do you eat by every public event without caring?
Dear Avira,
The Iraqi Jews that in your view ate trief would include the Iraqi Jews mentioned in the Gemara. A lot of the circumstances remained unchanged right up until 1948. For some reason, they didn’t reach out to the Yeshivos in Europe to update the Gemara for them. They didn’t really take to the Shulchan Aruch until the 1700s.
“If you hold something l’halachah, you can’t facilitate or benefit from other people transgressing it.”
This statement is only a hundred percent accurate with dozens of qualifiers.
That being said, MO hangs too much on saving money when it comes to many aspects of halacha. Why does it irk you that my matzoh and arba minnin cost me more than my car?
Correction.
Rav Moshe’s opinion on chalav hacomapnies is clearly printed. It is muttar according to the law. (This is not a chidush if you know the sugya. The Chazon Ish agrees.) One is allowed to be machmer. If it comparably priced and not difficult to ascertain, one should be machmer. If one was makpid and the price went up, he must continue to be machmir.
Saying Rav Moshe had a kula here, is on par with saying that he allowed an Eruv In Brooklyn.
Yoshon was not kept for centuries in Europe. It is not clear why they didn’t, but such a precedent is not called a kulah. The same goes for birkas hamazon with a cup of wine. Today, some yeshivaliet want to be makpid on everything. They are completely mistaken about everything. One has to be really big and really know what they are doing to revive a practice that was dormant for centuries.
In the Yeshiva of old, even top lomdim were consistently being knocked off their high horses because there where real gaonim in almost every beis medrash. In such an atmosphere, one trembled at the mere thought of changing the minhag. Today, the cream of the crop run to their private offices to learn, and the masses of the yeshiva are left at the mercy of the lunatics who think they know everything without learning anything. In The Old Yeshivishe Velt chumros were well hidden. They were so modest about it, that their own families weren’t aware of what they were doing.
Dear Neville,
I also lol. But still I think there is a point here. It doesn’t matter if they are lower on the scale. The question is here if it works. There is an area where MO seems to work. Individuals seek out better religious circumstances than they are given. We tend to justify it a bit first. My earlier question as to what goes on in yeshivshe and chassidishe circles when the peer pressure evaporates and nobody is looking, was ignored.
So you get to label who is Zionist and who is anti Zionist when that in itself is a metaphor for Authentic Jewishness? That is not admissible evidence. Just argue that (blank) group is too dismissive of Torah and Mitzvos to advocate it’s political or idealistic causes. You are not being any more specific in any case by calling them out as Zionists. (What does that even mean anymore?)
Dear Youdont,
Look in that very teshuvah and he writes that he was told off for using that sevarah. The poster on the first page wanted to use that specific idea that Rav Moshe and Rav Aaron completely rejected. And none of the previous poskim entertained. It would throw out the whole mesechtes eruvin. Good Yidden don’t throw away mesechtos or invent new ones. If we are to build eruvin in cities there is a whole list of precedent on how to do so. To just do a run around on the whole topic, when we have more resources than we did in the last millenium is too deviant to have a place in any form of Orthodoxy. Conservative Jews built those kinds of eruvin before they all started driving on Shabbos. This was Rav Moshe’s concern more than anything else. In his amazing foresight he saw that Brooklyn would be the battleground for the pseudo halachic eruvin.
If you want to discuss the actual nuance of eruvin, I’ll try my best. But you can’t just quote one liners. We would have to establish what was the general precedent all over Europe and how the postwar generation transplanted it to America. And then we could examine Rav Moshe’s take. I concede that there can be a kosher eruv in Brooklyn. But anybody who cares about authenticity knows that it would have to be under the auspices of a qualified Rav who can attest to it’s proper construction and that it is frequently checked.
To my knowledge, Rav Tuvya Goldstien was one such example. Though he explicitly said that it does not conform with Rav Moshe’s opinion. Are you claiming that it does?
Dear Avira,
The Tzadik as G-d’s Body is a kabbalistic idea with a long historical trail. Chabad did not come up with it. And it has been part and parcel to several major controversies. I’m not near qualified to decipher what is legitimate and what is heretical.
???? ????
You could use some skills on how to deal with Chabad. They can be relentless.
I can’t ascertain how much the truth matters to you. The fact that is indisputable, was that the Rebbe was quite the gaon and knew how to choose his words carefully. If the other great talmedei chachamim of his time couldn’t hold their own against him, I surely cannot win this debate outright.
Shalosh seudos was not universal in Eastern Europe. This is not exclusive to Chabad. Same with sleeping in the sukkah. And eating before davening. I’m not saying this to defend Chabad. It’s important to know what the minhagim actually were before I blast everyone for not following my chumros.
American Yeshivish (The communal sub type not the poster.) has little in common with the Litvaks of yore.
The same goes with the Modern Day Chassidim and the Chassidim in Europe. Chabad too.
Dear Sechel,
That sefer is an embarrassment. Full of misunderstandings. Shaving was a common practice before the rise of the Catholic Church. The Gemara and Rishonim discuss it in multiple places. There never was a point in time that all Jews had beards. It’s a straight forward sugya until we get to using one sharp blade on specific points of the face. So please don’t use Harry’s.
This is why limud hatorah is a never ending task. It simply won’t do for Jews to make up halacha.
Dear Smerel,
I don’t fully disagree with your point, but to be honest it is really, really, difficult to not be more honest than Trump. He talks way too much and he lies even when there is no benefit. He racked up more fact checks than any other politician ever.
The efforts to indict Trump are non partisan. He has been facing charges for decades.
Dear Avira,
“or even a rotzeach, has not distorted and contorted the tzelem elokim and natural creative state of man.”
Say what?
The once tzelem elokim is now a corpse. Murder is “inherently evil, a corruption of the very essence of the person.”
Dear Richmond,
Here is Eruvin 101. Even if a city contains a reshus harrabim deoraisa there are simple methods to build a proper eruv between houses. There is extremely complex methods to build an eruv around large parts of the city as well. The fact that there are kosher eruvin in Brooklyn, doesn’t mean that there is no rh”r. Maybe I completely misread your posts. But it seems like you are arguing on this fact.
Dear Avira,
Because the logistics have completely changed. Even if such a store is found, who are the suppliers?
Dear Yechiel,
Christie has a lot of the same attributes as Trump. He is auditioning for a radio show. You seem more serious about his candidacy than he is.
To back up my statement before.
Every single group has their bunch that have nothing better to do than to argue you with you why they have exclusive access to the ultimate truth. Most groups splinter and fracture. So, the the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-(my group)-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-(my leader)-was-so-great type direct their energies at the other more than the outside. But the sense of being in the ultimate know is still detectable. Chabad doesn’t have any real splinters or fractures. They have been under one roof with messianics for thirty years! I know that you all like to yell that the Rea Chabad should evict the mishachists. But what would that achieve, besides for your own smug reaction?
Getting back on point, because Chabad is still unified all the stereotypical the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-Chabad-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-Rebbe-was-so-great have only the outsiders to perform for. You have to move beyond that personality type to find a real Chabadnik. Also, Chabad is very appealing to the pettiest types of thinkers for this very reason. This is why I feel that people who can’t make piece with the Chabad problem suffer from this weakness to some extent.
Dear Yechiel,
Your assuming that he will come due to a national need. I think that is incorrect.
Dear Sechel,
Shaving with an electric shaver isn’t a problem. What made you think it was?
Dear Richmond,
Your completely wrongheaded in your proclamations. Do you even know what eruvin issues are about? Rav Moshe was bothered that it may come to exactly what you are proposing. Paper Eruvin. It has no place in Orthodoxy.
Dear Always,
Learning them isn’t what makes one a chossid. Terrible misquote on your part.
Dear Sechel,
Avira doesn’t have litvishe hashkofos. The few litvaks left in the world have all tasted chassidus. Now what?
Because there is nothing wrong with honoring mediocre people. What is your problem if someone gets a bit of praise?
Dear Yechiel,
This seems like confounding take. Good luck anyways.
The Torah World today is fractured and disjointed. Who do zoom think you are fooling?
Dear Neville,
Please allow me to clarify.
Relatively – MO is starting with a lower halachic standard. If the law people go beyond that standard out of a personal commitment, that is worth noting. Every Rav in every group wants that from his lay people.
I would rather be on that other thread. Still, every group has it’s leniency and it’s weakness. The point of groups in general, is to have orthodoxy by association. Otherwise, let each family stand on it’s own merits.
The form of Anti Zionism by Mizrachi is that the government seeks it’s own power and justifications beyond advocating Mizrachi ideals. There are factions that broke of the State when they gave back land.
I don’t get the value of mixing together different topics. One who could only argue Zionism keeps bringing everything into it. In the end Zionism must be legitimized because it contains such a vast hold over all other arguments.
Dear Avira,
It’s very weird because the outstanding majority of your posts have a nationalistic feel to them. Either we all totally agree with what you post because you understand it to be based on what your people always knew to be the truth. Or we are completely wrong and are malicious in our attempt to corrupt the truth.
Dear Neville,
My problem with his post is that there doesn’t seem to be an option of enclosing a public domain or of separating an enclosed street.
And the nitty gritty of the teshuva is not the twelve by twelve. It’s the one street at a time factor like every other teshuva on the topic.
Dear Avira,
Two more: Rav Tuvia Goldstein and Dayan Fishel.
It should be noted that the stereotypical the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-Chabad-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-Rebbe-was-so-great is a minority in Chabad. A lot of this thread is sure projection.
You are saying more about yourself as a real human, than anything else.
It should be based on the weather.
Most had cream truck vendors appreciate the input of the neighborhood and are very accommodating.
“They don’t criticize ever”
They do. But why is that a complaint? What mitzvah is it to be critical where it will not have any effect? Are you even Jewish?